[11:12] <snwh> mpt, the reasoning behind qt for ubuntu one is the cross-platform ability right?
[11:15] <mpt> snwh, yes. Unfortunately that causes a noticably strange appearance on every platform.
[11:17] <mpt> snwh, if you'd like a less daunting visual design task, there's something interesting we're doing with the installer at the moment
[11:18] <snwh> mpt What's the chances of them returning to Gtk (and possibly just bundling gtk with the windows and mac binaries)?
[11:18] <snwh> oh whats that?
[11:18] <mpt> snwh, I don't know the answer to the first part, but I think switching from Qt cross-platform to GTK cross-platform is unlikely
[11:19] <mpt> snwh, briefly, the installer asks you a first set of questions, up to partitioning. Then it starts copying files to disk, while asking you a second set of questions.
[11:19] <mpt> snwh, this isn't new, Ubiquity has been doing it for a few years.
[11:20] <mpt> snwh, the problem is, people get confused about why there's a progress bar up when they're being asked the second set of questions.
[11:20] <snwh> mpt, ah I can see that.
[11:21] <mpt> Either they think they have to wait for the progress bar to finish, or they think the progress bar represents progress through the questions, when neither of those are true.
[11:23] <mpt> snwh, I've just mailed you a Gimp mockup of one idea I had, moving the progress to the top, followed by "Meanwhile, we have a few more questions..."
[11:23] <mpt> with layers for "Where are you?" and "Who are you?"
[11:23] <mpt> I'm not sure how (or whether) that text should change when you're on subsequent steps
[11:24] <mpt> Probably there are different ways entirely to solve the problem, too.
[11:24] <snwh> interesting
[11:25] <mpt> snwh, if you'd like to have a play, <https://picasaweb.google.com/105922848292507689403/1210TypicalInstall?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCOj8r6OyseCZOQ&feat=directlink> has source screenshots for each step
[11:25] <mpt> (that's linked to from <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubiquity/SlideDecks>)
[11:25] <snwh> I was already on those screenshots. haha
[11:25] <mpt> :-)
[11:26] <snwh> What if a spinner was used to indicate that the installer was working, then it switches to the progress bar at the slideshow
[11:27] <snwh> ^ mpt
[11:27] <mpt> snwh, that's one possibility. A spinner might look *less* like you need to wait for it, but how much less?
[11:29] <snwh> mpt, if it were in line with the USC progress spinner, where the user can still do things while it's going proceeding
[11:31] <mpt> snwh, maybe just the minimum necessary to answer the question "omg why is my hard disk going flat-out when I'm still answering questions"
[11:34] <thorwil> i doubt that a spinner has a lower "have-to-wait" factor. after it all, one appears in cases where you do have to wait until something is loaded/ready. doing something else in the meantime might be more common in cases where progress bars are used
[11:35] <snwh> well a spinner has less confusion surrounding its role, it (i dare say) wouldnt be confused for the progress of the questions
[11:36] <thorwil> then again, the progress bar is meaningless regarding how long it will take, when the process is potentially waiting for the user to complete input. i guess this suggests just using a text notice informing about something happening in the background
[11:36] <snwh> mpt, basically the user needs to understand what's happening
[11:38] <thorwil> i think we have consensus that the progress bar should go. but is it necessary to use *any* animation in its place?
[11:40] <snwh> thorwil, then what answers the question  "omg why is my hard disk going flat-out when I'm still answering questions"
[11:41] <thorwil> snwh: the snippet of text you have to put in anyway, even with spinner
[11:43] <thorwil> extra points for leaving even that out, if there is no hard disc involved ;)
[11:43] <xnox> snwh: gtk stack is pain to compile on windows & mac. Qt is friendly in that respect and provides more consistent cross-platform experience (from developer / coding point of view).
[11:44] <snwh> xnox exactly, haha
[11:45] <thorwil> mpt: this progress bar confusion makes for great advocacy for user testing, highlighting the kind of blindness technical minded users/developers have
[11:45] <mpt> thorwil, the progress bar doesn't wait for you to complete input afaik, though that's currently assumed to be a bug -- bug 732634
[11:46] <mpt> (we don't have a bugbot in here?)
[11:47] <mpt> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/732634
[11:48] <thorwil> mpt: what i meant is, that if the job of the progress bar is to give the user an idea of how long it will take (aside of showing something is happening at all), then it cannot actually succeed when there's still user input to collect
[11:49] <mpt> thorwil, true. So a spinner would be better for that reason alone.
[11:50] <AlanBell> bug #1
[11:51] <AlanBell> xnox: ^^
[11:52] <mpt> thorwil, bug 716120 is the contrary position :-) (though it doesn't give any reasoning)
[11:52]  * mpt hugs ubot5 
[11:53] <thorwil> mpt: if "would be nice" counts, we need to have a gazillion features everywhere. even features on features
[11:55] <mpt> thorwil, I'm not sure what you're getting at ... We can't go both ways, obviously, both not-showing progress for the first stage at all *and* showing progress for partitioning in particular
[11:55] <mpt> We have to pick zero or one of those
[11:56] <thorwil> i think that we want the user to fill out the forms without wasting time worrying about any other information. it's just the likely audible work the computer does that needs an explanationt o not cause more of a hang up thatn the presence of extra information will
[11:56] <snwh> an additional slide can be added to confirm in the user their understanding of whats going on
[11:57] <snwh> "dear user, your computer is going to do some things while you answer a few more questions"
[11:57] <mpt> yep, that would be one way
[11:57] <snwh> "to save time"
[11:58] <mpt> That's what I was trying to get at with the "Okay, we're getting started on that" text
[11:58] <snwh> and we could hide the progress bar until they hit the slideshow
[11:58] <thorwil> yes, progress bar only once the installation will be finished if the bar is filled up
[12:00] <thorwil> eh, partitioning is very much a different stage, isn't it?
[12:03] <thorwil> do the questions start while partitioning is still going on? until here i assumed it does not
[12:05] <snwh> thorwil, if the partitioning it automatic they do
[12:05] <snwh> otherwise the user sets it up, then the questions start while the file copying occurs
[12:06] <thorwil> ah, i never used automatic :)
[12:16] <snwh> thorwil, me either :)
[12:20] <xnox> AlanBell: thanks.
[12:21] <xnox> not true....
[12:21] <xnox> in either automatic or manual, you finish with clicking "Install Now"
[12:22] <xnox> at that point partman starts progress bar and commits all changes, fills it up to 100%, possibly multiple times (in case of resizes).
[12:22] <xnox> when that is done, file copy begins from zero again.
[12:25] <snwh> xnox, i stand corrected. it's been awhile since I used ubiquity
[13:00]  * AlanBell notes that orca reads out percentages as they happen and it is a bit confusing
[13:01]  * AlanBell would like the design team to design transcripts for Orca along with the pretty picture stuff