[00:02] <persia> There was an announcement that it would be ported, and a plenary from someone at Valve.  Video should be findable with your favorite search engine
[00:02] <persia> zequence: I don't have it yet either: they may not have sent them out yet
[00:04] <ttoine> But they didn't demonstrate it "live" at the UDS
[00:05] <persia> Not to my memory
[10:08] <smartboyhw> Grrr I actually discovered that the 20121106 build for i386 actually didn't fail and is available for download
[10:12] <zequence> The wikipedia page about Ubuntu Studio is a bit outdated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Studio
[10:13] <zequence> i added a section about linux-lowlatency, but it might be nice to do some more work on that page
[10:13] <zequence> And add sources for some claims, etc
[10:14] <smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
[10:14] <smartboyhw> zequence, you live in Sweden right?
[10:14] <zequence> smartboyhw: Yes
[10:15] <smartboyhw> zequence, two days ago a Sweden choir came to perform at our school
[10:15] <smartboyhw> forgotten it's name though
[10:16] <zequence> smartboyhw: We have a lot of that here. Don't know the names of many choirs though. Only two of the big ones
[10:16] <smartboyhw> zequence, give me the two big ones. Let me see which one it is:D
[10:17] <zequence> Eric Ericson Choir, and the Swedish Radio Choir
[10:17] <smartboyhw> no then
[10:17] <smartboyhw> hmm let me try to search the name
[10:57] <smartboyhw> Hmm I am sure blender is the problem
[10:57] <smartboyhw> it returned a error to me when I finish my apt-get upgrade
[10:57] <smartboyhw> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1342259/
[10:57] <smartboyhw> Here
[11:01] <persia> Needs porting to python3, or someone to do the (ugly) magic to make it not use python3.
[11:02] <persia> barry (usually in #ubuntu-devel when the sun is over the Americas) has written up some nice docs on porting.
[11:03] <smartboyhw> I am gonna report a bug
[11:03] <persia> I think there's already a python3 tracker, but yeah, it deserves a bug, as *some* solution should be SRU'd
[11:04] <persia> I suspect the same error occurs to folk who try to install blender directly
[11:04] <zequence> But, this is on 13.04, right?
[11:05] <persia> Oh, right.  The change to python-defaults is raring-only
[11:05] <smartboyhw> zequence, yes ONLY for 13.04
[11:05] <smartboyhw> python 3.3 is messing everything up
[11:05] <smartboyhw> Even the new live images
[11:06] <persia> That's why it's a development release: development needs doing :)
[11:07] <zequence> persia: Does Ubuntu import everything from Debian Experimental?
[11:07] <zequence> I mean, sync
[11:07] <smartboyhw> :P
[11:07] <persia> Generally only on request, but I think packages that were last synchronised from experimental might be resynchronised from experimental until told otherwise (I don't remember precisely)
[11:08] <persia> I think the sync code has been under heavy modification recently, but I don't remember the location.  Someone in #ubuntu-devel likely knows, if you want to check for sure.
[11:17] <persia> zequence: Found the code: lp:ubuntu-archive-tools
[11:18] <zequence> persia: Thanks. I did find something about the dev release here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/ReleaseProcess
[11:18] <smartboyhw> Bug reported
[11:18] <smartboyhw> Bug 1076230
[11:18] <smartboyhw> Damn wrong
[11:18] <smartboyhw> Bug 1076320 
[11:18] <zequence> And there's a blacklist for what packages to merge from debian http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/sync-blacklist.txt
[11:18] <smartboyhw> Yes this one
[11:19] <zequence> python 3.2 is on the blacklist, so I suppose this is something that Ubuntu does a custom package for
[11:22] <persia> doko maintains that package in both distributions, so I presume he put it there for a reason.
[11:23]  * smartboyhw is asking for help about blender in their channel
[11:23] <persia> They probably need a python3 patch, and I suspect they want to also do python2, as not every distribution has migrated yet.
[11:47] <zequence> I'm currently setting things up for recording. Going to be recording thousands of percussive sounds, so not much activity on US for me today. Was a bit in dispair for a moment, as I couldn't open my pd program that I've created for recording, cutting and saving samples
[11:47] <zequence> Was just a tiny git merge conflict
[12:08] <astraljava> Ahh... gotta love those.
[12:10] <smartboyhw> zequence, :D
[12:17] <zequence> It's not a fun feeling when you've spent weeks on coding something, and you find it may not even start suddenly
[12:25] <astraljava> Yeah, those are usually the worst. A friend on another game project said he was pretty frustrated when he had quadruple-checked everything and thought there just _is not possible_ to remain any bugs, yet the project wouldn't work.
[12:25] <astraljava> Turns out it was just a not-rebooted-after-several-kernel-updates situation.
[12:26] <smartboyhw> That IS the worst
[12:27] <ttoine> hi
[12:28] <smartboyhw> Hi ttoine 
[12:34] <ttoine> hi
[12:34] <ttoine> somebody knows if this possible to embed video (youtube or vimeo) on the wiki ?
[12:39] <astraljava> ttoine: From moinmo.in:"As you can see, [[...]] sets a link to the target, {{...}} embeds the target, which is especially useful for pictures." Doesn't mention video there, so I guess you can just give it a shot.
[12:52] <ttoine> astraljava, thanks.  So we definitively should create an illustrated doc on the wordpress site, with pictures and howtos videos
[13:03] <smartboyhw> ttoine, I agree
[13:04] <smartboyhw> Though I have a question though: Since there is a website team for Ubuntu Studio, should we just incorporate it into the forecoming PR team?
[13:22] <astraljava> Incorporate what? Doc vs. team, I don't see the connection.
[13:22] <smartboyhw> astraljava, here is the issue
[13:23] <smartboyhw> There is a website team right?
[13:23] <smartboyhw> Then since the new PR team should have a right to import news/others into the website, they (the PR Team members) should be in the website team
[13:24] <ttoine> smartboyhw, I agree
[13:25] <ttoine> knome : I can't see pleia2 online, for the Twitter account
[13:27] <astraljava> Ahh... so different issues altogether. Gotcha.
[13:27] <smartboyhw> astraljava, yeah
[13:58] <jta> good news folks, i moved my synth to the left of my computer finally!  woohoo!
[14:00] <smartboyhw> jta, yeah
[14:04] <jta> smartboyhw: you know what a rearranged workstation means don't you?  MORE PRODUCTIVITY!  YIPPIE!
[14:04] <smartboyhw> jta, so yeah:P
[14:04] <jta> Lol...having my synth on the right was a pita to get anything done, lol....
[14:05] <jta> I can use a mouse left handed but it just wasn't working out, lol....
[14:06] <jta> so it should help me with the blender and audio/jack workflow...plus digitizing my midi files to use as soundtracks for video
[14:06] <jta> all part of making a workflow for the combo graphics/audio heads and the distro
[14:14] <jta> wb smartboyhw 
[14:14] <jta> who all here does graphics?
[14:14] <jta> i have a minute to chat about the graphics workflow on the distro
[14:27] <smartboyhw> Hey scott-work 
[14:28] <len-dt> jta that is our biggest problem, not having enough graphic people.
[14:28] <len-dt> Scott does some Mish when he is around too
[14:29] <len-dt> jta, we are lopsided towards audio
[14:29] <jta> lol... true len-dt that's ok, i always ask for input first then i go off on my own, then I will ask for feedback, more of a courtesy and open door policy
[14:30] <jta> len-dt: for sure, just putting it out there...this distro started because of latency/RTS issue so that is understandable
[14:30] <len-dt> I personally would like to see us cover the rest of our workflows to the same extent as audio
[14:31] <holstein> im exited about lightworks!
[14:31] <len-dt> I would like to see us do something about multihead system support
[14:31] <smartboyhw> :D
[14:32] <jta> len-dt: yes, same here, I am working on that with blender...
[14:32] <jta> i need it for my live event work...
[14:33] <len-dt> I can set things up so that it works from boot to boot, but I think I should be able to set things up and change from single to multi on the fly without breaking things or having to resetup.
[14:34] <len-dt> In other words there should be multiple setups with auto selection depending on what is plugged in.
[14:34] <len-dt> gnome, unity xfce don't seem to do this well.
[14:34] <jta> len-dt: well if you have been researching it you know there are issues...especially with the display layers in Linux.  Which in theory should make it easier
[14:35] <jta> in reality, you can't trust the software programming techniques for the apps that run on the OS
[14:35] <jta> and multi head on the fly means many things
[14:35] <jta> but you are correct, it should "just work"
[14:35] <len-dt> Anyway, I have to go make sandwiches for my kids.
[14:35] <jta> there is a student working on a fix, he's in my notes.....
[14:36] <jta> len-dt: cut them in multiple shapes, they will love it...
[14:36] <jta> don't just cut them in half
[14:36]  * len-dt smiles, he doesn't cut them at all!
[14:37] <jta> len-dt: trust me, they will love it...
[14:38] <jta> cut it off set diagonally then make multiple cuts on the bigger side...
[14:38] <jta> or just cut a circle in the middle...
[14:38] <jta> my kids loved it
[14:44] <scott-work> jta: i have felt for quite a while that blender has been the most powerful and stable video editor in linux
[14:45] <holstein> len-dt: i think we could find someone in the xubuntu team to get with us on multihead.. they need it too
[14:45] <scott-work> i had greatly desired to work up an appropriate work flow around it so that ubuntu studio can support the profession video/film maker
[14:45] <scott-work> len-dt: holstein : multihead works very nicely with stock ubuntu with ubuntu
[14:46] <holstein> scott-work: yup
[14:46] <holstein> scott-work: i dont think we can use any of that though, correct?
[14:46] <smartboyhw> scott-work, still haven't add things to the testing docs blueprint eh?:D
[14:47] <scott-work> holstein: i don't know, i would expect we could snag some portions of it, like we did with the color stuff than len-dt was doing
[14:47] <jta> scott-work: cool.  Lightworks is exciting but it comes at a cost, blender I think is a better choice all things considered since many audio people want to do their own event fliers and 3D is popular for that
[14:47] <scott-work> smartboyhw: last two days, and it looks like today as well, have been pretty hellish
[14:47] <holstein> scott-work: sure, but why has xubuntu not done that?
[14:47] <smartboyhw> scott-work, yeah your headache is still on I think. I won't bother you then:D
[14:47] <scott-work> jta: i think the biggest thing blender missed out of on was to make some stupid python scripts to automate the stuff people want to do, like lower thirds, etc
[14:48] <holstein> thats soemthing i see in there at least 3 or four times a week... multihead sucks comments
[14:48] <scott-work> jta: i really think they could have mopped up the entire linux video world right there and people might not hold lightworks as the second coming
[14:48] <jta> the issue with multi-head is as explained, you can't do it on the fly...setting it up to boot works, but autodetect sucks...
[14:48] <holstein> i got it with my nvidia package.. a custom xorg.conf for it
[14:49] <smartboyhw> holstein, ask knome about why Xubuntu didn't:D
[14:49] <jta> scott-work: i have a small team working on the VSE to make it a better NLE...we should have something posted soon...we are also working with devs that have popular plug-ins for it
[14:49] <holstein> jta: but, we *should* be able to have that
[14:49] <jta> holstein: for sure
[14:49] <holstein> jta: i wish i understood more about why we dont
[14:49] <scott-work> smartboyhw: it's not the headache that has been the largest pain, it's the problems that i have had to solve and that are time sensitive that have made it hellish
[14:49] <holstein> or why xubuntu doesnt
[14:49] <smartboyhw> scott-work, ah ah ah OK
[14:49] <scott-work> smartboyhw: i haven't even touched the work i was suppossed to do this week yet
[14:49] <holstein> might literally be man power..
[14:49] <smartboyhw> scott-work, grrrrr 
[14:50] <jta> holstein: i have to have it eventually for my live event work...it has to hot swap or I have eliminated part of my workflow
[14:50] <smartboyhw> It's Thursday already
[14:50] <scott-work> jta: do you have a website that you blog under?
[14:50] <scott-work> blender VSE ?
[14:51] <holstein> jta: its arguably more of an issue for US.. xubuntu is more for one screen desktop users where we would be more likely to want dual head for audio/video tasks
[14:51] <holstein> smartboyhw: o/
[14:51] <scott-work> http://blendervse.wordpress.com/
[14:51] <smartboyhw> holstein, o/
[14:51] <scott-work> that is the blog i follow, but it's labeled "blender VSE" on the page
[14:51] <scott-work> i follow a few others too
[14:52] <jta> scott-work: no web presence yet...I had one and am rebranding, it will be up over the winter break...next week is my last week for big/long events
[14:52] <jta> until about mid January
[14:53] <jta> scott-work: no I am not directly affiliated with that website or 3point edit, the blogger, he's active on blenderartists.org and we are in those circles
[14:54] <jta> 3pointedit on ba
[14:54] <jta> scott-work: yes, it's a good blog
[14:55] <jta> we have not officially announced our intentions yet, and there are other people looking at and starting to work on the VSE, so it is alive and well
[14:56] <jta> I think a stronger blender and supporting app presence on ustudio will make it more attractive for VJays
[14:56] <jta> they can install their own VJ fav apps but a good core is important to start with, and that way they will not have to mess with blender, we will have it all set up
[14:56] <scott-work> i agree and i certainly want to empower and support them
[14:57] <scott-work> also it's crazy stupid how small the blender package is compared to other available NLEs, if i remember correctly
[14:57] <jta> scott-work: exactly, and there are a lot of other fine points that make it an optimal choice
[14:58] <jta> for one, it just doesn't crash like lightworks does...
[14:58] <scott-work> i seem to remember they were working on hardware acceleration for HD video, i hope that is still happening, although i believe that dumping to image sequence still happens quite often in profession movie making
[15:00] <scott-work> one thing that kdenlive and others do well is just import the video whatever the format is and kdenlive can automatically create proxies for you
[15:00] <scott-work> no need to avconv (again), but this time for a reduce resolution
[15:04] <jta> scott-work: blender vse does auto proxies also
[15:05] <jta> auto proxies are a good workflow point
[15:05] <scott-work> jta: ooooh, sweet. i haven't played with it in a while and when i did i had a book for the 2.4.9 version (i think), but i certainly haven't played very much with the current version
[15:05] <scott-work> aye, they are
[15:06] <jta> scott-work: wow, the whole UI has changed, we are up to 2.64 now...2.65 soon
[15:07] <jta> scott-work: the devs are going node crazy also...so there is a new tiles based compositor and lots of nodes...the interaction with VSE is still a bit odd but it's getting better
[15:08] <scott-work> that's incredible news!  i am going to really start looking at it again for video now :)
[15:09] <smartboyhw> :)
[15:09] <scott-work> i've been using kdenlive and getting very, very comfortable with it....it's quite smooth in many areas
[15:09] <scott-work> but i really hate to bring in crap loads of kde dependencies just for a NLE
[15:09] <scott-work> and the node editor is just amazingly powerful (if slightly complicated for most)
[15:10] <scott-work> (node editor in blender)
[15:16] <jta> scott-work: yes it is, but i am working with professional compositors in southern california and we are coming up with good instructional material that we will share with the community...so it should make things a lot quicker in the workflow/learning curve aspects
[15:16] <jta> scott-work: like sometimes you have to do little things to get output right...and that is cryptic/enigmatic...
[15:17] <jta> kdenlive is a great program for what it does...
[15:18] <jta> does anybody here use a typical webhosting service for a shell account?  as in setting up IRC listening?  I want to have a 24/7 irc connection that I can shell into
[15:20] <scott-work> i use a VPS that has a shell account, it's around 15 USD per month (obviously slightly less if paid bi-annually or annually)
[15:21] <scott-work> i would imagine that (but i'm not an expert) that any shared plan might not have shell access, but just FTP
[15:21] <jta> scott-work: i already have a good web host so I am not looking to add more $$$, I may just set my old laptop up and run it 24/7...but I would rather run it on my hosting service
[15:22] <jta> shell access is not a shell account with what I want to use it for scott-work  
[15:29] <astraljava> jta: I use IRC just as you described. I pay €30 a year for debian squeeze shell account, has 50GB space, apache2 with PHP+mysli, pretty much everything you can think of. Read my email from there with mutt etc.
[15:29] <scott-work> jta: looking at the blender news i see some improvements like i mentioned. for example the new green screen compositing nodes
[15:29] <scott-work> that is exciting news
[15:29] <astraljava> Downtime probably around few hours a year, maybe not exactly 99.999% uptime, but close.
[15:30] <jta> scott-work: for sure, the new Mango Open Movie Project/Tears of Steel really added a lot of VFX and live action capabilities, especially with match moving/camera tracking/green screen/compositing
[15:31] <jta> astraljava: i will look in to that becasue that actually gives me some other benefits on the debian front
[15:33] <astraljava> jta: Well, I'm not sure you'll qualify for this particular service, though. http://www.kapsi.fi/english.html
[15:34] <astraljava> We can set something up, though.
[15:35] <astraljava> :)
[15:38] <jta> well i like finish heavy metal music, does that count as a connection to Finland astraljava ? lol...
[15:38] <jta> Finnish
[15:38] <astraljava> Oh, which bands?
[15:39] <astraljava> jta: Well, we could set up a project that somehow deals with this area, or anything remotely linked to this country. What would you be interested in?
[15:40] <astraljava> Then you could say you want provider close to the origin, and they would fit the need better. :)
[15:40] <jta> astraljava: I am working with blender and they are in the same time zone...so the shell account is mostly intended to monitor european chat while I am asleep or have my computer off
[15:41] <jta> and I am working towards providing better blender/3d/graphics support for this distro
[15:41] <jta> blender is out of amsterdam, and there are a lot of finnish users and a few devs
[15:41] <jta> that would be the most solid connection
[15:41] <astraljava> jta: Yeah I noticed that, but failed to welcome you. So, welcome! :)
[15:42] <astraljava> I guess you could use that as the argument for the application. :)
[15:42] <jta> astraljava: thanks
[15:43] <astraljava> Since you're the biggest-into-graphics-guy in here, what's your take on Cinelerra?
[15:43] <jta> cool..I will put it in my notes..i am researching using my own webhost atm
[15:44] <jta> astraljava: it's a dead project and not community driven or heavily supported...
[15:44] <jta> it has some great features, just too many "issues"
[15:44] <astraljava> I tried to get that going, and talked to some guys on some of their IRC channels (this is way back, so I'm forgetting the details already), but it seemed even their own community wasn't really sure how/which version/whatever would be suitable for any given distribution.
[15:44] <jta> blender is alive and well
[15:44] <astraljava> Yeah.
[15:45] <jta> astraljava: it's too hardware dependent...blender will run on just about anything to one degree or another
[15:45] <jta> and it's multi OS so I am a big supporter
[15:46] <astraljava> Yeah, it sounds like a clear winner.
[16:11] <astraljava> Alright, let's get the Studio jam sessions going: http://www.jamwithchrome.com
[16:55] <knome> well, we're working on a monitor setting up display
[16:55] <knome> that's what will be it from our side
[17:32] <zequence> ttoine: Please have a look at what has been suggested on both documentation, as well as public relations in blueprints
[17:32] <zequence> ttoine: Some of the things you suggest have already been suggested
[17:33] <zequence> ttoine: On user docs https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-r-user-documentation
[17:34] <zequence> ttoine: PR https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-r-public-relations
[19:44] <scott-work> jta: do you use a particular ppa (presuming you use blender on ubuntu) for blender?
[19:45] <jta> ppa? scott-work
[19:45] <jta> i use a ubuntu flavor
[19:45] <scott-work> Personal Package Archive
[19:45] <jta> ah, no, not yet...
[19:45] <scott-work> you can build and host your own code (including variations of code in the repo)
[19:46] <jta> yes, I have been discussing that with one of my project leads
[19:48] <scott-work> although it looks like 2.63a is the repos for quantal and raring
[19:48] <scott-work> 2.62 for precise
[19:49] <scott-work> okay, i just wanted to make sure i could get some of the latest versions for playing with it this weekend
[19:51] <jta> we were talking about debian squeeze also
[19:51] <jta> 2.62 is fine...the mango stuff is in 2.64
[19:52] <jta> under debian flavors you should be able to unpack the offical linux download and have it work...may get a library or two fail...
[19:53] <jta> just run it from terminal and watch the window...don't dc it
[19:53] <jta> you can gui to it, then open a terminal and ./blender
[19:53] <jta> it will give you all the feedback you need
[20:39] <astraljava> jta: And is Ubuntu considered as a flavor in this case?
[20:50] <jta> for sure
[20:50] <jta> astraljava: 
[20:51] <jta> hey, how to you do the two up carrots in chat?  aka cones
[20:51] <astraljava> ^^
[20:51] <astraljava> Depends on keymap. :)
[20:51] <jta> yes..what's the key strokes?
[20:51] <jta> erm...standard english usa?
[20:54] <astraljava> Shift - 5
[20:54] <astraljava> err...
[20:54] <astraljava> Shift + 5
[20:54] <astraljava> :D
[20:54] <astraljava> err...
[20:55] <jta> %
[20:55] <astraljava> Shift + 6
[20:55] <jta> ^^
[20:55] <jta> oh...I thought people did the double thing with some type of chat shortcut
[20:55] <jta> lol...like '/lookupthere'
[20:56] <jta> so you didn't have to do what we just did, lol...
[20:56] <astraljava> I don't think so, but I could be wrong. It's been documented to happen before.
[20:56] <jta> i just see the double carrot so much I thought there was a shortcut
[20:56] <astraljava> jta: But I _loved_ what we just did there. *blink* *blink*
[20:56] <jta> like '/payfooknattentionplease'
[20:56] <astraljava> I THOUGHT YOU DID TOO!!!1oneeleven
[20:56] <jta> lol....
[20:56] <astraljava> *sniff*
[20:57]  * jta hands astraljava some tissue for that sniff
[20:58] <jta> yes the communicable interaction was fabulous...just the attempt at a short cut was a complete fail, lol...
[20:58] <jta> ^^^^^^^^^
[20:59]  * jta goes carrot crazy
[20:59]  * jta hands astraljava some java flavored chocolate to make ammends
[21:00] <astraljava> Whee!
[21:00] <astraljava> I feel so much better already.
[21:00] <jta> woohoo!
[21:01]  * jta whistles to the 7 dwarves song, "I owe, I owe so off to work I go, la da ti da la da ti da I owe..."
[21:02] <astraljava> Have fun.
[21:14] <scott-work> i did find a ppa for blender 2.64a https://launchpad.net/~irie/+archive/blender
[21:15] <astraljava> It soothes me not even remotely as well as java-flavored chocolates.
[21:27] <scott-work> the blender mango page (http://mango.blender.org/about/) has a great section that mentions some goals in the first paragragh
[21:28] <scott-work> this is something that i have been wanting to accomplish for ubuntu studio for a while
[21:29] <ttoine> zequence, great !
[22:01] <len-dt> scott-work, how does multi-head in vanilla respond to adding or subtracting a monitor in the middle of a session?
[22:02] <scott-work> pretty well from my limited experience
[22:03] <len-dt> does it remember how it was set up before?
[22:03] <scott-work> i did have some problems at one point with a certain set of monitors and it not working well (because it was trying to exceed to max size apparently)
[22:03] <scott-work> but that was with a laptop and a widescreen external monitor
[22:03] <scott-work> i think
[22:03] <scott-work> "does it remember...", i'm not sure i understand the question, len-dt 
[22:04] <len-dt> for example if two monitors were side by side and one is unplugged when plugged back in is it still side by side or super imposed?
[22:04] <scott-work> there isn't previous settings available i think
[22:04] <scott-work> ah, not sure
[22:04] <len-dt> That in my opinion is the bigest problem 
[22:04] <scott-work> i can test this out tonight if you would like?
[22:04] <scott-work> it might not remember specific settings per monitor, but it might remember general settings
[22:05] <len-dt> Maybe I should try it... my Yf is out of town and her machine has vanilla.
[22:05] <len-dt> I wish I had another monitor. I could sure use dual head for audio.
[22:08] <len-dt> I have a few old S3 cards around. I should drop one in my machine.
[22:10] <len-dt> scott-work, as I recall xrandr (that everthing seems to be a gui for) doesn't beside very well. The monitors have to be offset by so many pixels.
[22:11] <scott-work> len-dt: i'm not sure what vanilla is using as a front end, but i'm pretty sure it isn't xrandr, at least as i know it
[22:11] <len-dt> I will say that any of the performance software I have tested (impress etc) seems to work OOTB
[22:12] <len-dt> scott-work, as far as I know any setting change is done as a call to xrandr.
[22:12] <len-dt> I think any save too. At least xfce, yrandr and arandr do.
[22:23] <scott-work> len-dt: i'll do a quick test. plug in 2nd monitor, move it somewhere, unplug it, plug it back in
[22:23] <len-dt> Ok, also look for what happens in one monitor mode after pulling the plug.
[22:23] <scott-work> i don't think i have actually done more than have both monitors side by side and extend the desktop
[22:24] <scott-work> what do you mean by "one monitor mode"?
[22:24] <len-dt> When I pull the plug I end up with the screen that is left as a window in the middle of a big virtual screen I can't see the menu bar etc.
[22:25] <scott-work> oh. i don't remember experiencing that
[22:25] <len-dt> Happens in xfce.
[22:26]  * len-dt is off to pick his son up.
[22:31] <scott-work> going home now
[22:37] <ttoine> zequence, are you still here ?
[22:37] <ttoine> knome, if you are here, pleia2 seems to be always  away
[22:38] <knome> ttoine, here i am
[22:38] <knome> ttoine, pleia2's still traveling. wait until next monday and she'll be around much much more
[22:40] <ttoine> oh ok. can't know that ;-)
[22:42] <knome> no problem
[22:42] <knome> is there something you want to go through with me?
[22:42] <knome> i now notice i didn't go through the wordpress stuff with ailo, as i promised. oops. :)
[23:19] <zequence> ttoine: I'm here for a little while longer
[23:21] <zequence> ttoine: I don't think GRUB has anything to do with linux-generic being installed when doing an update
[23:22] <zequence> If linux-generic is not installed, it should not be installed when doing the update
[23:22] <len-dt> zequence, some of us have generic as well because it uses less battery.
[23:23] <len-dt> I find where I need battery I don't need low latency.
[23:23] <zequence> len-dt: That is a different issue. If you install linux-generic, than it being updated when doing an update, is quite natural
[23:23] <len-dt> None of my machines with just low latency are getting generic updates.
[23:24] <len-dt> But I will add 12.10 lowlatency has gotten a low latency update :)
[23:26] <zequence> I'd need to find out if -generic got installed somehow, without installing it manually. I seem to remember this happening sometime in the past
[23:27] <len-dt> I personally have not had it happen in either 12.04 or 12.10 and have had both up for over two weeks.
[23:27] <len-dt> 12.04 for 6 months
[23:27] <zequence> I can't find any reason why it would. 
[23:27] <zequence> The guy who claimed had that happen was installing some firmware
[23:28] <persia> There are some outstanding issues with the kernel -header packages and dependencies that may cause -generic to be installed unexpectedly.  I know this has been a continuing source of annoyance for the server folks for some years.
[23:29] <persia> Ah, installing firmware almost certainly will do it, as most of that depends on linux-headers, which depends on linux-generic-headers | ..., so if there are not yet kernel headers installed, will end up installing -generic because it can't know which is the right set of headers.
[23:32] <zequence> I think some firmware have linux-image as recommend, which in turn depends on linux-generic
[23:32] <zequence> apt-cache rdepends linux-image
[23:32] <zequence> Shows a bunch of firmware
[23:33] <zequence> But, dkms also recommends linux-image
[23:36] <zequence> I don't know. Could be the guy installed something by mistake too
[23:37] <zequence> 10
[23:42] <ttoine> zequence, I don't say that this is because of grub. What I say is that the latest kernel are installed for security purpose, be it a -generic or a -lowlatency. And grub is configured to load the "freshest" kernel
[23:44] <ttoine> so the matter is more a problem of choice at startup
[23:45] <ttoine> and is more a matter for people using laptops, as they will install -generic for battery
[23:46] <ttoine> that's why I suggest we change the grub setup so it will show the menu, and save the last choice