[00:01] <zequence> ttoine: I don't find that the latest -generic is installed, if -generic is not installed at all
[00:01] <zequence> ttoine: Also, the GRUB menu usually does show for me, for about 10 sec
[00:01] <len-dt> zequence, I don't think he said that
[00:02] <len-dt> I think he is saying that because people do install generic, this would be a better way of doing grub
[00:02] <zequence> But, I don't know why GRUB shows. Perhaps for me because I have multiple OS's
[00:03] <len-dt> I have had it off and on too. Not sure why.
[00:03] <zequence> len-dt: The discussion started because of the addition ttoine made to this https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-r-misc
[00:03] <len-dt> Ya, I saw the email.
[00:04] <zequence> Perhaps ttoine misunderstood what I meant. 
[00:04] <len-dt> I was going by what he said three or so lines up
[00:04] <len-dt> I also feel the grub menu is less than great for US
[00:05] <zequence> It would be handy with a boot order tool. I think there are some
[00:05] <len-dt> The default item is just "Ubuntu"
[00:05] <len-dt> I think it should always have the word lowlatency if it is.
[00:06] <zequence> len-dt: I agree. That should be changed. Did you add a workitem for it?
[00:06] <len-dt> I don't remember. I have been kind of out of it this cycle.
[00:06] <len-dt> I have not added much
[00:13] <zequence> I added both about changing the menu back to default, as well as making it show for 10 sec by default
[00:14] <len-dt> Yup, was just looking.  ;)
[00:20] <zequence> Could this be the file that creates the custom Ubuntu stuff? /etc/grub.d/41_custom
[00:20] <zequence> I can't understand something about that script
[00:23] <zequence> Like, how "config_directory" works
[00:29] <len-dt> While we are at it, it would be nice if the initrd works at leas as nice as the one on the live ISO.
[00:38] <len-dt> zequence, to change from hidden timeout to visible is quite easy. See file /etc/default/grub
[00:45] <len-dt> zequence, GRUB_DEFAULT can be changed from 0 to saved. Then GRUB_SAVEDEFAULT can be set to true.
[00:46] <len-dt> I just don't know if /etc/default/grub gets changed with SW updates.
[00:46] <ttoine> I use the save option too, very usefull. Altough, it will not load the latest Lowlatency if there is an update
[00:48] <len-dt> There are some other options in there as well. Not sure how they work though.
[00:48] <ttoine> len-dt, if grub is updated, and the file is not the original, there is a list of choice like (keep modifications / put the original again / etc.)
[00:48] <ttoine> zequence, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2
[00:49] <len-dt> I think it is also possible to add a file to /etc/grub.d that points at a different file.
[00:50] <ttoine> by default, grub2 is setup so the menu is not available if only ubuntu is detected. But it will show if several Linux distros are detected, or if other system like Windows are detected. The way to show the menu if there is only Ubuntu is to press the shift key at startup, if my memory is good
[00:51] <len-dt> Yes, that sounds right.
[00:51] <ttoine> len-dt, or perhaps to put different rules in a file in /etc/grub.d
[00:51] <len-dt> ttoine, if we add a file there will be no upgrade issues but if we change one there may be.
[00:52] <ttoine> would it be difficult to setup grub so there would be a choice like "latest generic" and "latest lowlatency", and remember the default choice 
[00:52] <ttoine> ?
[00:52] <ttoine> the better is to add a file in /etc/grub.d, for sure.
[00:53] <len-dt> I don't think any of us are grub gurus here
[00:53] <persia> I think that it makes sense for someone from here, someone from the server team, and someone from the kernel team to set up a chat with cjwatson to find the right solution.
[00:53] <persia> So the user can pick between sensible options for their kernel, based on whichever they have installed.
[00:55] <ttoine> have a look at /etc/grub.d/README , perhaps we should jsut create an entry at the top. And then, change the default grub setup to "save latest choice"
[00:56] <ttoine> len-dt, of course we are not gurus
[00:56]  * len-dt has a sore brain just thinking about it.
[00:57] <len-dt> I am going to have to choose 1 or two things to do this cycle and ignore all else I think.
[00:57] <ttoine> hum, perhaps persia is right. But would it be possible to chat with kernel team and server team, without being a guru ?
[00:57] <ttoine> someone like me, for example ?
[00:57] <len-dt> :)
[00:58] <len-dt> I think knowing what you want. Say make a mockup listing of what you want our menu to look like.
[00:59] <ttoine> the same, but instead having only default ubuntu, having a new line with lowlatency ubuntu
[00:59] <ttoine> and the possibility to save the choice
[00:59] <len-dt> Ubuntu  lowlatency
[00:59] <len-dt> ubuntu
[00:59] <len-dt> then extra like they have now (expert I think)
[01:00] <len-dt> I think for US lowlatency should be first.
[01:00] <len-dt> I don't know if the word generic needs to be there.
[01:00] <ttoine> yes. but as only audio users may be interested by this choice, and not at all startup if they use a laptop on battery, it would be good to have the save option
[01:01] <ttoine> no ?
[01:01] <len-dt> I was assuming save would be set. I do not know if the order changes with the saev setting or the second one may get high light
[01:02] <ttoine> len-dt, and what about -rt kernel ? perhaps it would be good to ask grub to show a menu entry for every kernel family ?
[01:02] <len-dt> Sort of anything other than generic should have a label then
[01:02] <len-dt> And the one shown should be the latest.
[01:03] <len-dt> (or the last used? don't know if that is possible)
[01:03] <ttoine> len-dt, the order don't change for me, whatever is my choice. with the current grub (12.04 and 12.10 are very similar) there is just a line Ubuntu, and a line "older ubuntu" is highlighted as default saved choice
[01:04] <len-dt> That works.
[01:04] <ttoine> if I click on older ubuntu, I have the complete list all kernel
[01:04] <ttoine> and the latest I used is highlighted
[01:04] <len-dt> I think older has been changed to "expert"
[01:05] <ttoine> not in vanilla ubuntu
[01:05] <ttoine> wow... 2am here, I must go to sleep. sorry to have to end the chat
[01:05] <len-dt> In our case that is probably not the best wording.
[01:05] <persia> ttoine: You're perfectly qualified to talk to other teams: the key is (as len-dt says) to be sure of what you want: the server team probably has similar requirements (and some of them have reason to use low-latency also).
[01:05] <ttoine> I don't have the time now
[01:05] <len-dt> have a great night
[01:06] <len-dt> I have to get a meal ready for my kids.
[01:06] <persia> The tricky bit is that the postinst for *any* kernel wants to tell grub it provided a new kernel, which makes it tricky to "save last", because the most recently booted kernel may not actually be the one the user should boot into next time.
[01:06] <persia> ttoine: Just responding to "like me?": no pressure implied.
[01:06] <ttoine> but len-dt or persia, can you just write something on the blueprints about that (whiteboard) so we can chat about that and confirm it, before I start chatting with kernel team ?
[01:06]  * persia doesn't have a clear idea of the requirements
[01:06] <len-dt> I will add an item
[01:07] <persia> len-dt: Thanks
[01:07] <ttoine> thanks
[01:07] <len-dt> persia, we are talking about requirements just now just that we should discuss it
[01:07] <ttoine> oh, and "good morning/afternoon/evening"
[01:07] <len-dt> *are not
[01:07] <persia> Oh, heh
[01:10] <len-dt> ScottL, I sent email to the list you may like to read.
[01:10] <ScottL> i shall read it :)
[01:11] <ScottL> i'm trying the multi-head stuff in vanilla now
[01:11] <len-dt> The email tells what I found.
[01:11] <ScottL> oh!
[01:13] <ScottL> ack, i was tyring to get this to work quickly before reading the email and i failed horribly
[01:13] <ScottL> reading email now
[01:14] <ScottL> i defintely agree with defining use cases
[01:14] <len-dt> ScottL, it pretty much just works... so long as you like the way it works
[01:14]  * ScottL cannot stress that enough across the board :P
[01:15] <ScottL> len-dt: good description!
[01:15] <len-dt> ScottL, I didn't confirm that they are using different workspaces for each display.
[01:16] <len-dt> I may test that when the battery is charged.
[01:16] <ScottL> huh, i could not make the monitors side by side, i had to put one over the other
[01:17] <ScottL> this is probably a function of my video card (which is ATI gpu built into the board)
[01:17] <ScottL> it maxes out at 1600x1600 and two widescreen monitors way exceed 1600 ;)
[01:17] <len-dt> I am using a netbook with intel chipset
[01:19] <len-dt> That says something about three displays. though that would probably mean more than one GPU
[01:19] <len-dt> Anyway gotta run and get supper ready.
[01:19] <ScottL> or SLI video cards, or the triple-matrix thingie
[01:19] <ScottL> right, len-dt , i gotta attend to the kids too
[06:50] <zequence> Nice of ttoine to get busy with the GRUB thing
[07:05] <ttoine> hi
[14:17] <len-dt> zequence, just a comment, I don't know if we will find a better menu editor.
[14:19] <len-dt> There seems to be a move away from main menus, certainly in unity, but also in Gnome3... but at a much slower pace.
[14:20] <len-dt> I think we need to have an understanding of what failed for the user (and why they did not file a bug)
[14:21] <len-dt> it seemed to me they where worried about not being able to set up their menu in the order they wanted
[14:23] <len-dt> that is perhaps more than can be expected from a small utility like that. It also does not have the ability to place custom app starters in a submenu of the users choosing.
[14:25] <len-dt> I suspect we would end up having to create our own application to overcome these problems.
[14:58] <scott-work> len-dt: are you speaking about ala carte ?
[18:21] <zequence> len-dt: As of now, I have no idea about how to edit menus for XFCE. But, if someone wants to be able to, I'll want to see about if and how it is possible, and see if we are making it possible, etc
[18:22] <zequence> And that's pretty much as much as I have thought about that yet
[18:27] <ttoine> zequence, alacarte don't work with xfce ?
[19:11] <zequence> zequence: I haven't tried yet. I think it does, but maybe not as expected
[19:13] <zequence> If someone wants to find out, that person could take over that workitem
[19:13] <zequence> I don't need to know myself
[19:14] <zequence> I will find out only if I do that workitem
[19:14] <zequence> This is the good thing about workitems
[19:14] <zequence> We all can see what needs to be done
[19:14] <zequence> But, only one person needs to do each workitem
[19:14] <ttoine> zequence, ok, I will test Alacarte and tell you
[19:15] <zequence> So, we save time, by not having to talk about everything. We just put up workitems, and do them, until we need help with something
[19:16] <zequence> This is also what makes us able to work independently
[19:16] <zequence> hehe, I seem to have addressed myself there..
[19:18] <zequence> ttoine: It's great seeing a new name among the workitems
[19:19] <ttoine> zequence, I know that I can do it alone, report it, etc.
[19:19] <ttoine> for most of item, I am not skilled enough in development
[19:20] <ttoine> and a lot of things are still moving on workitems at the moment. It will be easier for everybody when all will be fixed
[19:20] <ttoine> not fixed. stable
[19:20] <zequence> ttoine: I try to think more in the direction of interests. People have different interests, so they will choose different blueprints and workitems
[19:21] <zequence> ..and there is room for all kinds of blueprints and workitems, for all skill levels
[19:23] <scott-work> i have found ala carte to work fairly well, even with xubuntu i believe
[19:39] <ttoine> scott-work, me too. but we can check again.
[19:48] <scott-work> ttoine: i'm very glad you are helping ubuntu studio again
[19:49] <micahg> if anyone has time, the ISOs are broke, I probably won't be able to have a look until some time next week
[20:03] <ttoine> scott-work, I am very glad too
[20:26] <zequence> scott-work: So, if Blender is breaking the ISO, should we remove it from the seeds until it's fixed?
[20:27] <zequence> As it seemed, python 3.3 is causing mayhem
[20:27] <zequence> And it's not imported from Debian
[20:27] <zequence> While Blender is
[20:27] <scott-work> i'm not sure blender is breaking it actually, i looked at blender in launchpad and it seemed to be building correctly, i'll dig more into the build fail
[21:49] <len-dt> scott-work, alacart works fine. It does what it does with no problems. it is just that some users expect more :)
[21:50] <scott-work> what else would they want?
[21:50] <len-dt> zequence, ^^^
[21:50]  * scott-work really doesn't understand how else others might expect it to perform
[21:51] <len-dt> well the short comings are that it does not seem to allow formatting a menu or submenu.
[21:51] <len-dt> and if the user adds an item it will only show up in "other" and can not be moved from there.
[21:54] <len-dt> When alacart makes an app starter for the user, it ends up in ~/.local/share/applications and alacart puts a set of lines in there that assigns anything found in that directory to other.
[21:55] <len-dt> The purpose of alacart seems to be to be able to move an item from one submenu to another, or to create a custom starter.
[21:56] <len-dt> The custom starters do not have a category tag either.
[22:02] <len-dt> scott-work, My personal attitude is that the user should leave the main menu alone unless they know enough to hand edit the menu overlay in their home directory. The better place would really be in the panel to do custom stuff.
[22:03] <scott-work> ah, that explains it, thank you len-dt 
[22:06] <len-dt> scott-work, in some ways I would prefer the user to have to install something like alacart on their own so that if they mess up their menu.... we don't have to help them trouble shoot it :)
[22:07] <scott-work> hehe, that is a good point
[22:24] <jta> scott-work: what version did you build?  Don't build the SVN daily...build the offical release version...
[22:24] <jta> 2.64 is the current official release
[22:24] <jta> they just added py3.3 and are working out the cmake settings
[22:25] <jta> only grab svn if you are a dev or want bleeding edge features...like there is the new bevel/chamfer code being added as we speak
[22:26] <jta> actually 2.64a
[22:27] <jta> scott-work: http://www.blender.org/download/source-code/
[22:28] <jta> scott-work: blender devs are at a bcon level where several things have been merged so they are fixing what that has broken...
[22:33] <scott-work> jta: 2.64a is available from a ppa which is what i installed
[22:34] <scott-work> i hope to play around with it this weekend, kinda go through the work flow i already developed with kdenlive
[22:35] <jta> 2.64a shouldn't require py3.3...iirc
[22:35] <jta> the new 2.65 will use py3.3
[22:36] <jta> scott-work: just remember in the VSE where the mouse cursor is effects a lot of things...like when you add a clip where on the timeline it shows up, and when you use keyboard shortcuts, if the mouse is over the wrong area of the editor, you have different shortcuts
[22:37] <jta> i should say mouse pointer...the "cursor" is what blender calls the current frame marker bar
[22:38] <scott-work> right, it has changed quite a bit from 2.49 ;)
[22:40] <jta> check out Olson's NLA vid tutorial, it works in conjunction with the VSE  http://getblended.org/2012/07/absolute-basics-of-the-nla-editor/
[22:41] <jta> blender cookie has the best getting started series of videos, I don't recall if there is a VSE section...
[22:42] <jta> I have some material I am preparing for a class but it's not ready for general consumption yet...
[22:42] <jta> scott-work: http://cgcookie.com/blender/get-started-with-blender/  it's a tad dated but it's good none the less
[22:44] <jta> scott-work: if you search for video tutorials...some are labeled VSE, some don't mention the acronym, they just say sequence editor...
[22:44] <jta> so search on sequence editor also
[22:44] <jta> these tips should save you quite a bit of time...and remember the location of the mouse pointer makes a difference on the hotkeys and your right click to select things usually...
[22:46] <jta> scott-work: http://blendervse.wordpress.com/ is also a good place for info on the VSE...
[22:46] <jta> ok, enuf spam, lol...
[22:47] <scott-work> jta: no, no. that is great, i will defintely look over these pages this weekend
[22:48] <jta> #blender for general help questions...some of the regulars know the VSE also...and I usually hang out in there...
[22:48] <scott-work> one thing i really haven't even touched is the 3d modeling aspect of blender, actually :P
[22:48] <jta> well with the compositing and tracking features, that's way fun to overlay 3d onto live action video....you will for sure get bitten by the bug, lol...
[22:48] <jta> ok, going afk for a bit...
[22:59] <scott-work> long day for me and i'm going home now