[00:00] <ttoine> bug 1077508
[00:15] <Len-nb> zequence, dumb question, right now most of our icons are in the -settings package.
[00:16] <Len-nb> it would make sense to me though that a set of icons should be in the -look package.
[00:17] <Len-nb> However... our only purpose for an icon set is to fill out places we have added such as submenus which are defined in the setting package.
[00:17] <zequence> Len-nb: We should create a proper icon theme, and a new package for it. Then have it inherit the icons from the other theme. I think you can even have it inherit icons from a third theme, if the second is not available
[00:19] <Len-nb> Our icon theme now goes several levels down
[00:19] <Len-nb> We are not trying to make a theme really, but cover places where there are no icons now.
[00:24] <zequence> I think one of the problems with the custom menu all along has been it being custom
[00:24] <zequence> The menu is custom. The icons is custom
[00:24] <zequence> It's being developed as if it was an application in itself
[00:25] <zequence> Because there's no workflow application in its place
[00:28] <Len-nb> In my opinion. The reason for developing a custom menu is because the workflows tend to end up with unmanageable submenus with the list of apps flowing off the screen
[00:29] <Len-nb> So the custom menu is to make things like "multi-media" manageable.
[00:33] <Len-nb> zequence, really what I am saying is that I feel the "standard" main menu is broken. The Categories spec in open desktops is broken or under used.
[00:33] <Len-nb> I think this is part of the reason things like unity have shown up.
[00:34] <Len-nb> the main menu is a mess.
[00:36] <zequence> What Unity, Gnome3, Windows 8 and the Launchpad in OS X does is not solve the problem of a broken menu, but takes a step into the future, by introducing a new way to find applications
[00:36] <Len-nb> Anyway, all that aside, there is an icon theme package already. It is almost empty having only the debian directory. I guess it would make sense to use that.
[00:36] <zequence> I was just looking at http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
[00:37] <zequence> It's weird how Audio and Video must be lumped together
[00:37] <Len-nb> For the average desktop it makes sense. there is not that much there
[00:38] <Len-nb> for us that is almost the whole menu
[00:39] <zequence> Len-nb: There's the additional categories here as well http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apas02.html
[00:39] <Len-nb> There are actually a lot of standard categories that could be very useful, but because the standard main menu setup doesn't deal with it most appliaction devs don't use them.
[00:41] <zequence> I think if we work according to the standards, and find good solutions, we could suggest changes in some areas upstream
[00:41] <Len-nb> This is why we are stuck with customizing a menu, or dumping the main menu and customizing a launch panel
[00:41] <zequence> heh, there's a "adult" category there
[00:42] <Len-nb> Yes but the stock menu doesn't use it.
[00:42] <Len-nb> any application that used it would end up in "other"
[00:43] <zequence> I'm aware of that. But, if we do follow the standards, or at least have it as reference, once we come up with useful categorization that we feel work well with the standardizations, we could suggest changes upstream
[00:44] <zequence> I've never felt comfortable with how the stock menu is categorized
[00:45] <Len-nb> well if we start now.... maybe by version 20.10 :P
[00:45] <Len-nb> upstream fixes to the main menu are a start.
[00:45] <zequence> In the long run, I don't expect menus will be used as much in the future anyway
[00:46] <zequence> Who knows
[00:46] <Len-nb> but those changes would have to go upstream to each and every application we ship as well
[00:46] <zequence> I would rather start thinking about developing workflow applications, like the panel
[00:46] <Len-nb> Out of all our mixers I think there are two in the mixer category
[00:46] <Len-nb> Yes that too
[00:47] <zequence> Perhaps we should start adding changes for Desktop files in Debian packages then?
[00:48] <zequence> I don't think it needs to go further upstream than that, as long as the changes aren't too radical
[00:48] <Len-nb> the very best thing would be to start suppying patches to the application devs
[00:50] <zequence> Yea. I've been talking about joining the Multimedia Team for a while now
[00:51] <Len-nb> I think if we came up with an audio menu that the audio distros liked, and made just that one sub menu sort of standardized the devs would follow.
[00:52] <Len-nb> I don't know our other workflows well enough to know if there are enough apps there to do the same there.
[00:56] <zequence> The additional categories in http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apas02.html all have "related Categories", which sort of make all of the additional categories standard submenus
[00:58] <zequence> If every desktop file has at least two categories, 1. the main category, 2. the sub category, it's possible to use the standard scheme and let all of the submenus just import by category
[01:00] <zequence> I guess it's not possible to use %% || logic for adding starters to menu categories
[01:00] <zequence> Cause, then you'd be able to do: Audio && Sequencer
[01:01] <zequence> And only those Desktop files would end up in a submenu called Sequencers
[01:02] <zequence> For the Dash in Gnome or Unity, this is not a problem, since you just search by the category itself, and you only get relevant hits
[01:03] <zequence> I need to look more into how the menu behaves
[02:17] <Len-nb> zequence, the only problem is that all of those submenus don't exist in standard main menus. The menu has to be customized to use them.
[02:18] <zequence> Len-nb: It's not a problem if all the Debian packages include desktop files with correct standard categories
[02:18] <zequence> Then custom menus aren't as custom
[02:18] <Len-nb> It is possible to do and/or in the menu. Using keywords instead of symbols
[02:18] <Len-nb> Yup, that would be nice.
[02:19] <Len-nb> The standard gnome menu (and maybe kde) had some pretty good game subs, but xfce doesn't add those.
[02:20] <Len-nb> I think maybe we need to work with the xfce team then.
[02:20] <Len-nb> gnome 2 is gone anyway.
[02:20] <zequence> gnome2 may be gone, but not the categories
[02:21] <zequence> They are still used within both gnome-shell and Unity
[02:21] <Len-nb> Ok, that makes sense.
[02:37] <Len-nb> zequence, it would still be nice if xfce used them too... 
[02:38] <zequence> Len-nb: Yea
[02:39] <Len-nb> Anyway, I think my project this cycle is to do the icon theme. If we can get xfce to add some more to the stock menu they would be welcome to use those icons.
[02:40] <Len-nb> We should probably add categories (sub) to all of our submenus.
[02:41] <Len-nb> In all we should think in terms of making our menu what the stock menu should be.
[02:50] <Len-nb> The only customization should be the main layout. Putting the important categories at the top.
[02:54] <zequence> I like the sound of that
[03:15] <Len-nb> It would be really nice if sub categories would only populate when there was more than one or two items otherwise the item would just show one level up. so if we have one mixer (for example) it shows in audio menu, if there are two or more they show in a submenu.
[03:15] <Len-nb> That way a desktop with minimal audio SW wouldn't be overloaded with submenus.
[11:25] <ttoine> hi
[11:37] <zequence> ttoine: Hello
[11:38] <zequence> ttoine: Seems my experiences with alacarte were quite different from others
[11:38] <zequence> ttoine: I put your task done, cause I read it as if you were done with it. I also did some extra work on that, by trying out other options, and started a new doc page about it
[11:39] <zequence> Seems the issue is not fully solved yet
[11:39] <zequence> And there has been more discussion on the structure of the menu
[11:40] <ttoine> ok
[11:41] <zequence> ttoine: We're looking at following standards more. http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html
[11:41] <zequence> There are a bunch of "additional" categories to choose from as well
[11:41] <ttoine> perhaps you should put a structure draft on a blueprint white board, so everybody can see that and give is opinion, even if he was not online for discussion
[11:42] <zequence> ttoine: I think it's better to discuss thing on the mail list
[11:42] <zequence> ttoine: We were talking about patching Debian packages making them have correct categories, so that our menu would not need as much custom work
[11:43] <ttoine> ok
[11:43] <ttoine> I hope this is not too complicated
[11:44] <ttoine> zequence, does patching in debian allow having patch for US -R
[11:44] <ttoine> ?
[11:44] <zequence> ttoine: We'd patch packages in Debian and have them synced to Ubuntu R
[11:44] <ttoine> ok
[11:45] <zequence> Until then, I guess we can start thinking about how to structure the menu according to those categories
[11:46] <zequence> ttoine: That is actually something you could do, if you like. It doesn't require much coding skills
[11:46] <zequence> The menu has a format, which is a bit self-explanatory
[11:46] <ttoine> and why not put that on a whiteboard ? I mean, when there is a change, everybody is notified
[11:46] <zequence> Both me and Len-nb have been working on it
[11:47] <zequence> ttoine: If you want to have a look, it's here /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/menus/xfce-applications.menu
[11:47] <zequence> ttoine: I just woke up :)
[11:47] <ttoine> ok
[11:47] <zequence> And we only discussed this before I went to sleep
[11:48] <ttoine> zequence, what is your time reference ? (so I know when you are off)
[11:49] <zequence> ttoine: I'm in Sweden, so about one hour later than you, right?
[11:49] <zequence> I woke up a bit late today. But it's Sunday after all
[11:51] <zequence> ttoine: The source package is ubuntustudio-default-settings
[11:52] <zequence> I guess there's no big hurry with that though
[11:52] <zequence> You have other interests too. I think the PR bit might be better to get working first :)
[11:53] <knome> zequence, hey, you have some time?
[11:57] <ttoine> zequence, yes, something like that. for me it's Paris time
[11:58] <ttoine> zequence, yes, I think that setting the PR would be great. I am already skilled for that. for menu and package patching, I will have to learn
[12:26] <zequence> knome: Sure
[13:22] <smartboyhw> Oh I missed the conversation
[13:31] <zequence> knome: I'll be away for a bit, but just PM me
[14:38] <smartboyhw> Hey len-dt :D
[14:38] <len-dt> morning...
[14:40] <len-dt> I have the start of an icon theme done.
[14:40] <len-dt> It only has one icon in it :)
[14:40] <smartboyhw> len-dt, LOL
[14:41] <len-dt> I think I have to have it released before I add the icon-theme to seeds.
[14:41] <len-dt> But micah isn't around right now.
[14:41] <smartboyhw> len-dt, yes you do or if not you get killed:P
[14:42] <smartboyhw> I gained 1000 karma in a day!
[14:42] <smartboyhw> Hmm weird Launchpad
[14:43] <len-dt> I don't know if it matters too much because the old theme is empty and the depends don't hurt anything.
[14:43] <smartboyhw> len-dt, yeah
[14:45] <len-dt> Still it would be nice to have the new package available and install to a LIVE ISO and see if it fixes the install icon.
[14:45] <smartboyhw> len-dt, ah......
[14:46] <len-dt> RE: plymouth... I think I am going to do the email list vote for deciding if we should have the version number in the text version.
[14:46] <len-dt> Does that make sense?
[14:47] <len-dt> I have decided I don't really care that much one way or the other.
[14:47] <len-dt> But micah would like a decision on that.
[14:48] <len-dt> Then I will pull the commits out that put in what we have and redo it.
[14:50] <smartboyhw> len-dt, OK good:D
[15:05] <len-dt> smartboyhw, I have sent it.
[15:05] <smartboyhw> len-dt, send what?
[15:06] <len-dt> The vote email for above.
[15:06] <smartboyhw> Ah ah ah
[15:09] <smartboyhw> len-dt, replied:P
[15:10] <len-dt> Thanks.