[12:10] <czajkowski> aloha
[12:11] <czajkowski> hows folks
[12:11] <czajkowski> ebel: good comments on the article
[12:11] <czajkowski> didnt know that about the paddys day parade in NYC
[12:12] <slashbel> hello
[12:12] <czajkowski> slashbel: howdy
[12:12] <ebel> czajkowski: yeah it's the "Ancient Order of Hibernians" that run the New York on
[12:13] <czajkowski> huh never knew that
[12:13] <czajkowski> Pendulum: usually is my source of NYC news
[12:13] <ebel> czajkowski: but "Irish-American" is different from "Irish". e.g. there are non-nationals in paddy's day parade in ireland
[12:14] <czajkowski> nods
[12:14] <ebel> but that's cause it's a national holiday here
[12:14] <ebel> whereas in USA, Irish-Americans are an ethnic minority
[12:14] <ebel> it's a privately run parade in USA
[12:14] <czajkowski> I do tire of the 3rd and 4th generation people going on about how theyir great great counsin was irish
[12:15] <czajkowski> it's like really you've lived in usa longer than over here, and never been here
[12:15] <ebel> czajkowski: if you want a real head desk look at the New York paddy's day parade banner rules.
[12:15] <czajkowski> just admit you're American
[12:15] <czajkowski> ebel: aye saw it
[12:15] <ebel> Your banner can have your group name or "English out of Ireland". WTF!?
[12:15] <czajkowski> indeed
[12:15] <czajkowski> bit ott
[12:16] <ebel> You'll note I say "Irish-American" not "Irish" :P Irish-Americans ≠ Irish
[12:16] <czajkowski> yes I know this and you know this
[12:16] <czajkowski> not everyone does
[12:16] <ebel> yup
[12:16] <czajkowski> it becomes head wrecking at events tbh
[12:17] <ebel> USAians use the term "Irish" in USA. It means "Irish-American" IMO
[12:17] <czajkowski> I've yet to find one that sees that distinction
[12:18] <ebel> I think most "Irish-American" groups in USA are also strongly catholic
[12:19] <czajkowski> ah the ones I've met are baptist
[12:19] <czajkowski> is that spelt correctly
[12:19]  * czajkowski peers 
[12:19] <ebel> which is a change from current Irish. That's why I dislike USAians who call themselves "Irish".
[12:19] <ebel> Protestants eh? :P
[12:19] <czajkowski> I'm not saying that :)
[12:19] <ebel> Baptists probably would consider themselves Protestants I think
[12:20] <ebel> It's mostly an ecumincal matter :P
[12:20] <czajkowski> nods
[12:22] <ebel> Of course "Irish-American" culture was formed/influenced by being a minority in USA, which didn't happen in Ireland.
[12:23] <czajkowski> I just find them ott, more irish then the irish. naming their children irish names when they've never even stepped foot in ireland
[12:23] <czajkowski> not in their lifetime or their parents
[12:27] <ebel> It's cause in USA, everyone has to "come from somewhere" unless your a native american.
[12:27] <czajkowski> yeah I find that boggling
[12:27] <czajkowski> surely after 90+ years you're american and come from america
[12:27] <czajkowski> I just have to tune out tbh
[12:31] <ebel> I don't mind them saying "Irish-American" because that's a valid subgroup within American culture
[12:31] <ebel> In the same way "Cork" is a valid ethnic subidentity within Irish culture (say)
[12:31] <czajkowski> lol
[12:31] <ebel> But no, they aren't Irish, and they aren't more in touch with what irish culture actually means.
[12:34] <ebel> Heh, I wonder a good way to mess with their heads would be to insist that anyone who says they're "Irish" is not actually American...
[12:34] <ebel> "I'm Irish", "Oh so you don't like America? Grand so."
[12:34] <czajkowski> yeah these are topics I stay well clear of
[12:34] <czajkowski> and tend tonod and smile and run away :)
[12:34] <ebel> Play the Irish-identity side against the American-identity side :P Tis a bit mean though
[12:35] <czajkowski> you're a bit evil
[12:35] <czajkowski> so ye going biking any time soon again
[12:35] <ebel> Pfft, if they're going to claim my identity, I'm going to start claiming things about their identity :P
[12:35] <czajkowski> LOL!!
[12:36] <ebel> Fun fact: Back in the day, there was a lot of anti-Irish racism in USA. new Irish migrants weren't considered white (twas only white anglo-saxon protestands (WASPs) that counted as white)
[12:37] <czajkowski> ;o
[12:37] <ebel> some extreme protestants didn't think catholicism was a real christianity
[12:37] <ebel> JFK was asked if him being catholic would interfer/hinder him being president
[12:37] <ebel> (sorta like obama/black thing :P )
[12:37] <slashbel> popery… the pope is the anti-christ (in some protestant churches)
[12:39]  * ebel wonders why he keeps /parting…
[12:42] <ebel> anyway, no no biking planned. weather is a bit cold, and the sun is quite low so that can interfer with vision
[12:45] <czajkowski> nods
[12:45] <czajkowski> plans for another long ride this summer?
[12:46] <ebel> next year big holiday will prob. not be a bike one. Might go on a week long trip to scotland or alps.
[12:46] <ebel> big holiday next year miiight be africa trip
[12:47] <ebel> how's your fella's bike?
[12:47] <czajkowski> grand
[12:47] <czajkowski> he's just sold his old one and still has the new one
[12:48] <czajkowski> though the old one is only about 24 months old I think
[12:49] <slashbel> czajkowski: you weren't tempted to have the old one?
[12:54] <czajkowski> nope
[12:54] <czajkowski> he also just bought a car over the weekend so will be able to drive that :)
[14:12] <Pendulum> czajkowski: I blame the emphasis on US schools teaching that US culture is a "melting pot". Also, maybe the number of holidays that relate to "coming to America"
[14:13] <czajkowski> melting pot?
[14:13] <czajkowski> how so?
[14:15] <Pendulum> You get taught as a kid in US schools (or you did when I was a kid, at least) that the US is a melting pot of all the cultures and nationalities that immigrants brought when they moved over
[14:16] <Pendulum> So that it comes out of this mixture of culture
[14:16] <ebel> Which sorta is true. The USA is a very multi-ethnic country
[14:16] <Pendulum> right
[14:16] <Pendulum> although not completely true because there are so many areas where immigrants tried to *not* mix with other groups
[14:17] <czajkowski> nods
[14:17] <ebel> well, so are other countries, but that's local ethnicities, rather than USA's "people moving in" thing
[14:17] <zmoylan> in terry pratchetts discworld he admitted that he based the dwarves on the irish who seem to become more irish the further away from ireland that they lived.
[14:18] <slashbel> i wonder if that is true of other cultures
[14:18] <czajkowski> zmoylan: aye I know one or two like that, they'd never really been irish irhs, but move them thousands of miles away and they crave for the irish pubs and social meet ups
[14:18] <Pendulum> but as a result there's a whole thing where schools start teaching you young that you need to really care where your anscestors moved from no matter how long ago
[14:18] <czajkowski> I miss my taytos and red lemonads but not liable to be joining any irish ex pats groups over here tbh
[14:19] <czajkowski> Pendulum: yeah I know it's just get a bit much from time to time
[14:19] <zmoylan> and been a minority in another place can make you cling to what you brought with you.
[14:19] <slashbel> czajkowski: i still haven't found any shops selling red lemonade
[14:19] <czajkowski> slashbel: bah go up to stoneybatter and you;ll find some
[14:19] <czajkowski> not liekly to be sold in Fresh
[14:19] <czajkowski> tesco or dunnes
[14:19] <zmoylan> a mate working for the first time in the uk when he found an irish 2p coin kept it and showed it to all the irisg folk he met.
[14:19] <ebel> I'd say other cultures do it aswell, just look at (say) indians etc. in india
[14:19] <czajkowski> nods
[14:20] <ebel> sorry indians in UK
[14:20] <ebel> Most irish-americans just like the plastic bits of irish-ness, "wearing green" etc,
[14:20] <zmoylan> plastic paddies.  well known condition.
[14:20] <zmoylan> :-)
[14:20] <ebel> as I said, USAians are culturally different from EU
[14:23] <Pendulum> ebel: I always find it interesting when people say that about "Irish Americans". Because while it's true for a few they're often not the ones who actually have any Irish ancestors. When you get the real Irish-American communities, they mock the "wearing green" and that side and find those folks offensive.
[14:26] <Pendulum> The places where I tend to actually think of there being a proper "Irish American" community, are the places where there's usually a good number of folks who have moved to the US in their lifetime and where the kids all go to the same schools (usually Catholic), go to the same church, etc. They're less likely to actively throw the fact that they're Irish in your face because where they are it's just how everyone is.
[14:27] <czajkowski> nods
[14:29] <Pendulum> I don't know if it's true in other large cities that are loud about having an Irish-American population, but NYC ends up being this funny mix of the obnoxious, in your face and the "just are" sort
[14:30] <Pendulum> The ones who are obnoxious are,  most of the time, not the ones who've had any new Irish blood in their family in so many generations that they can't trace back
[14:32] <Pendulum> they won't fit in with the real communities
[14:33] <Pendulum> And there are some people who fit in with the proper communities who don't have much Irish blood, but a huge part of the difference in acceptance is based on behaviour.
[14:34] <czajkowski> what do you mean by the last bit
[14:34] <Pendulum> If you're obnoxiously loud about being Irish, you probably won't fit in any of the communities
[14:34] <zmoylan> the old phrase from school.  'more irish than the irish themselves'
[14:34] <Pendulum> right
[14:35] <czajkowski> ah yes
[14:35] <czajkowski> sorry
[14:35] <czajkowski> that I understand
[14:35] <zmoylan> there were laws against that.  the statutes of kilkenny if memory serves :-)
[14:38] <Pendulum> But I also have an unique thing in that even at a young age I stood out because I called myself a "mutt" rather than saying that I was from any specific cultural background
[14:38] <Pendulum> So that i've always been outside looking at the various cultural groups rather than belonging to one.
[14:40] <Pendulum> Which was extra interesting growing up in my area where most people IDed as being Irish, Polish, or Italian. (Never more than one because it was our parents' generation that still could be kicked out of their families if they married someone of a different group)
[14:45] <czajkowski> nods