[00:00] <ScottK> We do do a few things different to integrate into the Ubuntu echosystem, but not a lot.
[00:00] <LyzardKing> Yes, it's perfect! I'm starting to develop somewhat serious programs(I hope) mainly in python and qt, so this is great to know
[00:01] <ScottK> Welcome.
[00:01] <ScottK> I do most of the packaging of PyQt and PyKDE for both Debian and Ubuntu.
[00:01] <ScottK> I'm also one of the Debian/Ubuntu Python maintainers.
[00:02] <LyzardKing> really? that's wonderful. I'll keep you in mind if I need support then, if it's no too much trouble.
[00:03] <LyzardKing> at the moment I'm starting to learn pyqt to port a ui from tkinter to qt.
[00:03] <ScottK> You can always ask.  I can't promise to always answer.
[00:03] <LyzardKing> yes I figured
[00:03] <ScottK> Also there are several people here whov'e done PyQt/PyKDE.
[00:05] <LyzardKing> yes. thank you fo r the support!
[00:06] <Riddell> ScottK: there was someone in #kde-devel the other day who said he worked on pykde which is good to know it's still got maintainance
[00:06] <Riddell> don't remember the name just now
[00:06] <ScottK> Riddell: Excellent.
[01:02] <shadeslayer> did someone start uploading kde 4.10 to ninjas?
[01:03] <ScottK> Not AFAIK.
[01:06] <yofel> Riddell: did you?
[01:10] <Riddell> yofel: nope
[01:11] <Riddell> I ran the script but it wasn't successful
[01:11] <Riddell> so feel free to do it
[01:12] <yofel> did the script error out? or just too many packages that have to be fixed by hand?
[01:14] <Riddell> it errored out on new packages that I forgot to remove from the package list
[01:15] <Riddell> and it gave a version number of -0ubuntu1~ubuntu12.10~ppa1
[01:15] <Riddell> where 12.10 is not right 
[01:17] <yofel> did you run it with -d quantal?
[01:18] <shadeslayer> I was thinking of uploading just kde4libs tonight
[01:18] <yofel> go ahead
[01:19] <shadeslayer> will do
[01:19] <yofel> I'm too tired to do much right now, and it seems the script needs some more fixing
[01:20] <shadeslayer> Found on github : "An SSH2 client module written in pure JavaScript for node.js."
[01:20] <ScottK> Oh dear.
[01:20]  * ScottK wonders if you can use it for evil?
[01:20] <shadeslayer> javascript all the things
[01:20] <shadeslayer> https://github.com/mscdex/ssh2
[01:21] <Riddell> yofel: no -d raring  -y 13.04
[01:21] <ScottK> Unfortunately a substantial fraction of open source JS is actually non-free.
[01:21] <shadeslayer> that's .... news to me
[01:22] <Riddell> like owncloud shipping .min.js files, stopping me from backporting it, grr
[01:22] <ScottK> Although since that doesn't need anything other than node.js, so it's not inherently non-free.
[01:23] <ScottK> Just depends on an anti-social upstream in that case.
[01:50] <shadeslayer> hmm, there seem to be 2 python patches that don't apply cleanly to the kdelibs tarball
[01:51] <shadeslayer> python3-support-bytecode.patch and findpythonlibrary_layout_deb_on_debian.diff
[01:51] <shadeslayer> someone willing to rewrite those? :P
[01:51] <yofel> didn't the bytecode one get accepted upstream?
[01:51] <yofel> or at least in a similiar fashion
[01:52] <shadeslayer> I don't know, haven't looked
[01:52] <shadeslayer> if upstream accepted it and it works better, I could just drop it
[01:54] <shadeslayer> an even fun thing is that this : http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-packagers/kubuntu-packaging/kdelibs/view/head:/debian/patches/kubuntu-mobile-07-serviceAvailabilityChanged-bool-signal.diff : seems to have been accepted, but the other patches in the series apply cleanly
[01:55] <shadeslayer> i.e. kubuntu-mobile-01,02....06 
[02:24] <shadeslayer> yofel: there seems to be a commit that says : Respect PYTHONDONTWRITEBYTECODE environmental variable.
[02:24] <shadeslayer> commit id is 352ceb824ab7b6425bbb470d2231f76704fc3a10
[02:24] <yofel> I remember seeing something on some ML about that, but that's all I know really
[02:25] <shadeslayer> hmm
[02:31] <shadeslayer> the patches are the same
[02:35] <shadeslayer> the python path patch also could be dropped
[02:35] <shadeslayer> ScottK: ^ A bit of advice needed
[02:36] <shadeslayer> this is what they use to set the PYTHON_SITE_PACKAGES_DIR var  : execute_process(COMMAND ${PYTHON_EXECUTABLE} -c "from distutils.sysconfig import get_python_lib; print(get_python_lib(True))" OUTPUT_VARIABLE PYTHON_SITE_PACKAGES_DIR OUTPUT_STRIP_TRAILING_WHITESPACE)
[02:36] <shadeslayer> running that python script in the interpreter gives me : /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages
[02:43]  * shadeslayer prays to the python gods that he didn't screw something up
[02:48] <shadeslayer> just to make sure, I need to export DEBBUILDOPTS to some value to parallelize building right?
[03:35] <Riddell> shadeslayer: you can remove the mobile patches, there's new patches for plasma active 3 but I think we concluded that would want a second build of kdelibs so a job for another day
[03:36] <shadeslayer> mmmm
[03:39] <shadeslayer> Riddell: should I just go ahead and drop the patches altogether or is there something else to be done as well?
[03:53] <Riddell> shadeslayer: drop tem
[03:55] <shadeslayer> oh hah
[03:55] <shadeslayer> Riddell: patches don't exist in the series file
[03:55] <shadeslayer> just lefovers I guess
[04:00] <shadeslayer> package uploaded
[04:00] <shadeslayer> there were a couple of symbol updates that I didn't catch though, so it might fail
[04:08] <shadeslayer> ok, I'm off to sleep, could someone update the symbols if the build fails?
[04:08] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: If we were porting kpythonpluginfactory to python3, how would we test it?  I think we need some kind of trivial implementationt to try it against.
[04:11] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: this is a minimal KCModule implementation in python3: https://code.launchpad.net/~echidnaman/+junk/kde-config-drivers
[04:13] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: I knew there was a reason I was asking you ...
[04:13] <JontheEchidna> ;-)
[04:14] <JontheEchidna> w/ python2 it looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/6ytUS.png
[04:16] <ScottK> Thanks.
[04:16] <JontheEchidna> (and all the files used compile to bytecode with python3)
[04:16] <ScottK> Shouldn't have gotten worse with 3.3.
[04:17] <JontheEchidna> s/files used/files being used/
[04:17] <kubotu> JontheEchidna meant: "(and all the files being used compile to bytecode with python3)"
[13:17] <BluesKaj> Hi all
[13:59] <mrlukeparry> Hi all, I am wanting to test kdevelop 4.4.1 package from their ppa (mainly because the 12.10 release is so buggy), but I have no idea how to install the packages they've created
[14:04] <apachelogger> mrlukeparry: who's ppa?
[14:04] <mrlukeparry> let me find it
[14:05] <mrlukeparry> it's incorrect for me to say ppa, but their launch page
[14:05] <mrlukeparry> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdevelop
[14:05] <apachelogger> !proposed
[14:06] <apachelogger> why that is useles
[14:07] <mrlukeparry> what does that mean?
[14:07] <mrlukeparry> can I use ppa:kubuntu-ppa/staging it appears to be in here?
[14:09] <apachelogger> mrlukeparry: as per bug 1067611 we are trying to push 4.4.1 into regular 12.10, however first we need to assure that this release is of sufficient quality
[14:10] <apachelogger> so i tis in a separate part of the official archive called 'proposed'
[14:10] <apachelogger> once it has been verified that the new version works as expected we can move it to from proposed to the regular archive
[14:12] <apachelogger> mrlukeparry: in the muon software center go to settings -> configure software sources -> tab updates -> select 'pre-released updates' -> close and do an update
[14:12] <apachelogger> you should then get an update that brings, among other things, kdevelop 4.4.1 in
[14:12] <mrlukeparry> ah that sounds good apachelogger
[14:12] <mrlukeparry> will give it a try
[14:13] <apachelogger> if you find that the current version is good enough please also leave a comment on that bug I mentioned so we have confirmation it is good for moving
[14:13] <mrlukeparry> everytime I compile something with 4.3.9 it crashes, so i am happy to test it out for you guys
[14:13] <apachelogger> if you want additional information you can also read up about the process etc. on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed & https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/PerformingSRUVerification
[14:16] <mparillo> New Debian KDE animated splash screen after login on 13.04? I like it.
[14:16] <apachelogger> mparillo: huh?
[14:55] <mparillo> After I login to Kubuntu 13.04 with today's updates, I now see a differnt KDE splash page, where the 4? icons come up one-by-one. Now there is a Debian curl in the background.
[15:07] <shadeslayer> 0.o
[15:09] <mparillo> shadeslayer: Surprised as in this slipped in by accident, or surprised that anybody noticed?
[15:09] <shadeslayer> surprised that its even different
[15:10] <shadeslayer> I don't think the splash stuff was touched 
[15:10] <shadeslayer> though I might be wrong 
[15:14] <mparillo> I doubt I did anything special. I grabbed one of the earliest 13.04 32-bit (VMWare player does not seem to like 64-bit) daily builds and have simply been letting muon apply updates ever since (for 12.04 there was a stretch where I had to do dist-upgrade, but so far not on 13.04).  And then the KDE splash just changed. I do not recall adding any KDE apps (U1 is Qt with a bunch of Gnome dependencies, and passwordsafe uses 
[15:14] <mparillo> xywidgets, I think), so I figure I must not be alone.
[15:15] <yofel_> that souds like the ksp
[15:15] <yofel_> ... kplash from debian indeed
[15:15] <mparillo> ksp!
[15:15] <mparillo> ?
[15:15]  * yofel_ can't type on his tablet...
[15:16] <yofel> and I make typo's on my notebook, this doesn't start well ^^
[15:17] <yofel> mparillo: can you check in the splash settings if 'joy' is used?
[15:19] <mparillo> System Settings > Startup and Shutdown does not seem to have splash settings. Are they stored elsewhere?
[15:20] <yofel> workspace appearance
[15:21] <mparillo> joy it is
[15:21] <mparillo> I am pretty sue I did not change it manually.
[15:21] <yofel> yeah, that's the debian one, which is really nice but shouldn't be used by default...
[15:21] <mparillo> It used to be Default.
[15:23] <mparillo> Should I open a launch bug, or is this a new feature? As I said, I kinda like it, but maybe it would be even better if the Debian curl were replaced by a Kubuntu gear. Though I understand ScottK likes vanilla KDE, which leads us back to Default.
[15:23] <mparillo> s/launch/launchpad/
[15:23] <kubotu> mparillo meant: "Should I open a launchpad bug, or is this a new feature? As I said, I kinda like it, but maybe it would be even better if the Debian curl were replaced by a Kubuntu gear. Though I understand ScottK likes vanilla KDE, which leads us back to Default."
[15:23] <tsimpson> I doubt vanilla KDE uses the Debian logo ;)
[15:24] <yofel> a bug it is, just where...
[15:25] <apachelogger> yofel: it's funny how unituitive sysemsettings has become :S
[15:27] <yofel> yeah, the grouping was supposed to clean the UI up. Some of the groups were created from the wrong perspective though :/
[15:27] <yofel> (implementation wise the splash is workspace, user wise it's startup)
[15:28] <apachelogger> too many groups anyway
[15:28] <apachelogger> also too many settings in general if you ask me
[15:28] <apachelogger> i.e. there should be a an advanced mode
[15:28] <apachelogger> and if that is not active only like half the stuff should be shown
[15:29] <mparillo> Which is why I guessed wrong on Startup and Shutdown. As for filing a launchpad bug, I can always use kde-workspace and let somebody change it.
[15:29] <apachelogger> I am reasonable certain the debian splash is not in workspace
[15:29] <apachelogger> as a matter of fact I don't know what ships it
[15:31] <mparillo> If nobody else is using a daily 13.04 build, I can download today's, apply updates, and confirm before I post a bug report.
[15:31] <apachelogger> mparillo: is kubuntu-default-settings installed?
[15:32] <apachelogger> ohohoh
[15:32] <yofel> lol?
[15:32] <yofel> desktop-base: /usr/share/kde4/apps/ksplash/Themes/joy/Theme.rc
[15:32] <apachelogger> yofel: do we still package ksplash such that the wallpapers are linked to kde-default.png or whatever it is called?
[15:33] <yofel> why the hell is that in desktop-base o.O?
[15:33] <yofel> Description-en: common files for the Debian Desktop
[15:33] <apachelogger> yofel: it's a debian package
[15:33] <yofel> and why do I have that installed...
[15:33] <apachelogger> should not be installed by default though
[15:33] <apachelogger> only stuff like fluxbos will drag that in IIRC
[15:34] <apachelogger> mparillo: ls -l /usr/share/wallpapers/kde-default.png
[15:34] <yofel> lightdm-kde-greeter 
[15:34] <yofel>   Recommends: desktop-base
[15:34] <apachelogger> oh lol
[15:34] <apachelogger> time to flame upstream :P
[15:35] <mparillo> I do not see kubuntu-default-settings in my list of installed Software > Provided by Kubuntu
[15:36] <apachelogger> mparillo: dpkg-query -l kubuntu-default-settings
[15:36] <mparillo> /usr/share/wallpapers/kde-default.png -> Ariya/contents/images/1920x1200.png
[15:37] <apachelogger> mparillo: also .... ls -l /usr/share/kde4/apps/ksplash/Themes
[15:37] <mparillo> /usr/share/wallpapers/kde-default.png -> Ariya/contents/images/1920x1200.png
[15:37] <apachelogger> yofel: question is ... even with desktop-base installed how does it become default?
[15:37] <mparillo> Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
[15:37] <mparillo> | Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
[15:37] <mparillo> |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
[15:37] <mparillo> ||/ Name           Version      Architecture Description
[15:37] <mparillo> +++-[15:37] <mparillo> ii  kubuntu-defaul 1:12.10ubunt all          Default settings and artwork for 
[15:37] <yofel> no idea, it didn't get set as default here
[15:38] <mparillo> I might make the bot angry, but:
[15:38] <mparillo> total 32
[15:38] <mparillo> drwxr-xr-x 9 root root 4096 Nov 10 00:28 Default
[15:38] <mparillo> drwxr-xr-x 9 root root 4096 Nov 16 13:55 Horos
[15:38] <mparillo> drwxr-xr-x 9 root root 4096 Nov 16 13:52 joy
[15:38] <mparillo> drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Nov 10 00:27 Kubuntu
[15:39] <mparillo> drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Nov 16 13:55 Minimalistic
[15:39] <mparillo> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Nov 16 13:55 None
[15:39] <mparillo> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Nov 16 13:55 Simple
[15:39] <mparillo> drwxr-xr-x 2 root root 4096 Nov 16 13:55 SimpleSmall
[15:39] <apachelogger> mparillo: next time please use paste.kde.org ;)
[15:39] <yofel> we have no floodbot here ^^
[15:39] <apachelogger> yofel: I consider that a feature
[15:39] <yofel> ack
[15:39] <apachelogger> usr/share/desktop-base/profiles/kde-profile/share/config/ksplashrc
[15:40]  * apachelogger has no clue how that would get picked up -.-
[15:40] <apachelogger> desktop-base is a confusing package :P
[15:40] <apachelogger> kubuntu-settings ftw
[15:41] <yofel> the fun part is the kde3 and gdm3 part in postinst
[15:41] <apachelogger> lulz
[15:42] <mparillo> [KSplash]
[15:42] <mparillo> Theme=joy
[15:43] <apachelogger> the spaecfun wallpaper actually looks rather nice with the ksplash box thing ^^
[15:44] <apachelogger> mparillo: ~/.kde/share/config/ksplashrc
[15:44] <apachelogger> /etc/kde4rc
[15:45] <apachelogger> echo $KDEDIRS
[15:45] <apachelogger> oho
[15:45] <apachelogger> yofel: >>> cat /usr/share/kde4/config/kdeglobals
[15:45] <apachelogger> [Directories]
[15:45] <apachelogger> dir_config=/usr/share/desktop-base/profiles/kde-profile/share/config/
[15:45] <mparillo> ~/.kde/share/config/ksplashrc
[15:46] <apachelogger> that's on 12.04 though
[15:46] <mparillo> cat: /home/mparillo/.kde/share/config/ksplashrc: No such file or directory
[15:46] <yofel> $ cat /usr/share/kde4/config/kdeglobals
[15:46] <yofel> [Directories]
[15:46] <yofel> dir_config=/usr/share/desktop-base/profiles/kde-profile/share/config/
[15:46] <yofel> 13.04
[15:46] <apachelogger> that's how it gets picked up
[15:46] <yofel> fun
[15:46] <apachelogger> mparillo: thanks found it
[15:46] <apachelogger> so
[15:47] <apachelogger> other than lightdm-kde needing a fix....
[15:47] <yofel> removing the recommends should be enough?
[15:47] <mparillo> Is it a bug? Upstream?
[15:47] <apachelogger> yofel: actually I think talking to upstream is in order
[15:47] <yofel> though an alternate depend would be better
[15:47] <apachelogger> kdm did not have a relationship with desktop-base I think
[15:48] <yofel> yeah
[15:48] <apachelogger> so why should lightdm
[15:48] <apachelogger> on a related note ... we could make kubuntu-settings conflict desktop-base
[15:48] <apachelogger> that would make it pretty obvious should it happen again in the future
[15:49] <yofel> someone might want to actually use that
[15:49] <apachelogger> I know
[15:49] <apachelogger> not having to investigate shit > making 3 people out of 7 billion happy :P
[15:49] <apachelogger> just a thought though
[15:50] <apachelogger> alternatively we could force defaults in kubuntu-settings
[15:50] <apachelogger> i.e. our ksplashrc would be theme=Default
[15:50] <apachelogger> so kubuntu settings always take preference, that of course relies on completeness and at the same time would make it harder to investigate as partial brand leaking would occur
[15:51] <apachelogger> ScottK: what happens if we blacklist a package in the seed and it would get pulled in through a dep?
[15:52] <ScottK> It gets pulled in.
[15:52] <ScottK> (on install)
[15:52] <ScottK> That or it wouldn't be installable on the livefs build and the build would fail.
[15:53] <ScottK> (it being the thing that depended on it)
[15:53] <ScottK> So either way, no good.
[15:54] <apachelogger> that or there is not helpful ^^
[15:54] <apachelogger> and what's with everyone and the nexus7?
[15:54] <ScottK> You missed UDS, so you weren't indoctrinated.
[15:55] <apachelogger> apparently
[15:55] <ScottK> It's the new Ubuntu hotness.
[15:55] <apachelogger> actually it is not just in ubuntu
[15:55] <apachelogger> everygo on the intartubes someone is having a nerdgasm over the nexus 7
[15:55] <apachelogger> *everywhere I go
[15:56] <apachelogger> hm
[15:56] <apachelogger> amarok decided that it wants to scan my home
[15:56] <apachelogger> currently scanning my 2.6 kernel clone
[15:56] <apachelogger> only 10 more clones to go \o/
[16:04] <mparillo> apachelogger: Do you want me to open a launchpad bug? Assign you? In unfun development environments code checkins are tied to bugs or features.
[16:04] <apachelogger> I presume yofel already uploaded a fix
[16:04] <yofel> er no?
[16:04] <apachelogger> lazy bum :P
[16:04] <mparillo> See how fast you can be when you are in a fun development environment?
[16:04] <apachelogger> mparillo: if you want to, feel free to open a bug
[16:05] <yofel> hm, "fix" for now being dropping the recommends?
[16:06] <apachelogger> doing that already
[16:06] <yofel> ok
[16:06] <apachelogger> yofel: please mail post@ralfj.de to demote it in debian
[16:06] <apachelogger> to suggests
[16:06] <apachelogger> or drop it entirely
[16:06] <apachelogger> probably needs discussion in debian, but since they neither install recommends nor suggests it does not matter and the relation there is definitely not recommends
[16:07] <apachelogger> (I would argue that there is none actually.... otherwise all branded packages would have to have one .... :S)
[16:11] <apachelogger> mparillo: got a bug report yet?
[16:12] <mparillo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kde-workspace/+bug/1080115
[16:13] <mparillo> Sometimes ubottu seems to auto-post new bug reports, I was waiting to see if it would.
[16:13] <apachelogger> cheers
[16:13] <apachelogger> mparillo: takes a while
[16:13] <apachelogger> that is based on RSS feeds
[16:14] <apachelogger>   Uploading lightdm-kde_0.3.0-1ubuntu2_source.changes: done.
[16:14] <apachelogger> Successfully uploaded packages.
[16:14] <yofel> oh, re kubotu: it says (by PERSON) when posting a bug. Wouldn't it make more sense to say who did a change than constantly posting the OP?
[16:14] <kubotu> hola yofel
[16:14]  * apachelogger returns to doing useful things
[16:14] <yofel> ^^
[16:15] <apachelogger> yofel: tell that to launchpad :P
[16:15] <yofel> ah
[16:15] <apachelogger> as I said... it's rss based
[16:15]  * yofel admits that he has no idea what the rss content is
[16:15] <apachelogger> well, obvoiusly the author is the OP :P
[16:16] <apachelogger> which may be right one could argue
[16:16] <apachelogger> not very practical though
[16:16] <mparillo> Leaving for a while...I have stirred up enough trouble.
[16:16] <apachelogger> if I wasn't so lazy I'd write something with mails or something
[16:16] <apachelogger> mparillo: yeah thanks for that :P
[16:17] <yofel> well, you could maybe take code from Eeebotu
[16:17] <apachelogger> yofel: it also uses rss
[16:18] <yofel> ah, that explains the batch-postings
[16:18] <apachelogger> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mrooney/eeebotu/trunk/view/head:/eeebotu.py#L104
[16:18] <apachelogger> the souping there is somewhat spooky ^^
[16:19] <yofel> lol
[16:21] <ScottK> apachelogger: Debian does install Recommends by default.
[16:21] <apachelogger> spooky
[16:22]  * yofel is off for a while
[16:22] <apachelogger> oh, now I amhungry
[16:23]  * ScottK is considering a bagle with lox and creamed cheese in a bit.
[16:23] <ScottK> bagel even.
[16:24]  * ScottK notices his quassel has lost it's spellcheck.
[16:24] <ScottK> Fixed.
[16:24] <apachelogger> hm
[16:24] <apachelogger> anyone remember http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_(software)
[16:25] <apachelogger> <<we did it in c# because we can>>
[16:26] <apachelogger> galago :D
[16:32] <apachelogger> ftbfs
[16:33] <apachelogger> /usr/lib/arm-linux-gnueabihf/mesa-egl/libEGL.so.1: undefined reference to `wl_display_iterate'
[16:33] <apachelogger> hrm
[16:35] <apachelogger> also what's the last comment in bug 1074961 about
[16:38] <ScottK> Isn't kamoso afiestas' baby?  I'm sure he can fix it.
[16:40] <apachelogger> yeah, I threw the bug at him, no clue what happened ^^
[16:40] <apachelogger> actually I think that is fixed in master
[16:40] <apachelogger> at least rdieter made a commit there WRT icon stuff
[16:40] <apachelogger> not going to look into that now or I'll starve though :P
[18:35] <mparillo> Speaking of Quassel spell-check, rekonq 2 with spell-check is coming soon (stable by Christmas).  Does anybody know which version of rekonq is targeted in 13.04?
[18:39] <yofel> whatever's useful. Feature Freeze is in march, so if it doesn't require any weird things we should have it
[19:07]  * apachelogger falls over
[19:09]  * yofel hands apachelogger a pillow
[19:16] <apachelogger> :)
[20:25] <ScottK> yofel: The pillow helps more before the fall.
[20:26] <yofel> :P
[20:27] <ScottK> synaptiks port to python3 seem feasible if we can get kpythonpluginfactory ported.
[21:03] <apachelogger> ScottK: someone maintaining it would be useful first
[21:03] <ScottK> apachelogger: What alternative have we got?
[21:04] <apachelogger> not shipping unmaintained software that has bugs all over it :S
[21:05] <apachelogger> alternatively make upstream create something durable
[21:05] <ScottK> It seems that "maintenance" is mostly removing stuff for features  X is dropping.
[21:06] <ScottK> There's patches running around in a bug to do this.
[21:07] <apachelogger> random patches for unmaintained software tend to make things worse
[21:07] <apachelogger> that's what made phonon xine drag on for years