[07:45] <smartboyhw> Hmm now since the new lowlatency-pae thing is now in precise-updates and precise-proposed (hopefully also precise-main) the images should build now....
[09:32] <zequence> smartboyhw: Also, for future reference, it would be better if you don't add something to seeds that doesn't exist yet
[09:35] <zequence> We don't do stuff because it's fun. We do them, cause they are needed
[09:36] <zequence> But, of course, we may have fun doing it
[12:55] <smartboyhw> zequence, I forgotten: When will you take over Precise kernel maintenance???
[13:20] <zequence> smartboyhw: There's no exact time decided. When everything is ready for it
[13:21] <smartboyhw> zequence, BTW remind ya: Approve all our blueprints before 22nd......
[13:21] <zequence> Me and ScottL are working on that, yes
[13:23] <zequence> I finally got jackd2 patched for raring. Awaiting review for merging
[13:35] <smartboyhw> zequence, good:D
[14:08] <smartboyhw> zequence, changing blueprints to approved caused me to receive a hell lot of emails:D
[14:17] <len-dt> smartboyhw, the icon theme should not be added to seeds.
[14:17] <smartboyhw> len-dt, why?
[14:18] <smartboyhw> len-dt, it is MOST important we add it to the seeds......... (with your new version)
[14:18] <len-dt> Because it has to be added to settings.
[14:18] <smartboyhw> len-dt, oh........;P
[14:19] <len-dt> the icons are not really a theme on there own. That is they don't change the look of the desktop.
[14:19] <len-dt> they are an integral part of our menu.
[14:20] <smartboyhw> len-dt, grrr first of all we need to release it....Is 0.14 released/
[14:20] <len-dt> However, for them to take effect we have to make it the default theme unless we add it to hi color instead.
[14:21] <len-dt> First I need to finish it.
[14:21] <len-dt> It is not a rush :)
[14:23] <smartboyhw> len-dt, LOL
[14:24] <len-dt> So the merge is rejected. But don't worry, it will get done as needed.
[14:24] <len-dt> I think I am down on the BP as doing the icons anyway.
[14:26] <smartboyhw> len-dt, oh alright
[14:26] <smartboyhw> BTW there is naming convention problems in Wubi (since we're the only official Ubuntu distro with two words) 
[14:27] <smartboyhw> I will fix it soon. Maybe now
[14:27] <len-dt> Once the icons are released, they can be tested by selecting our icon theme when running the live ISO. That show as the right icon in ubiquity... I think.
[14:28] <smartboyhw> len-dt, OK
[14:31] <len-dt> rejecting a merge sends out too much mail too :P
[14:41] <smartboyhw> len-dt, LOL
[14:42] <zequence> len-dt: I'm thinking the icon theme should belong to -desktop, not settings. And the icons in the menu should not be called by name, but by function
[14:43] <zequence> I don't know how the calling of the icons work atm (haven't checked)
[14:48] <zequence> This way, the menu is not depending on a icon theme
[14:58] <len-dt> Which is why I was wondering if they should be added to hi color
[14:59] <len-dt> I think the main thing is to get them out of pixmaps where they are now.
[15:00] <len-dt> In order for the icon for ubiquity to work though, I think it has to part of a theme that is default.
[15:01] <len-dt> However, once the system is installed, if the user changes the icon theme... the distro icon would change too.
[15:01] <len-dt> I don't know that we can change that.
[15:02] <len-dt> If I add the distro icon to hi color it will be covered by something higher up the tree.
[15:03] <len-dt> However, even if I put the menu icons in hi color, our settings package depends on them being there.
[15:03] <len-dt> zequence, so settings depends on icons.
[15:05] <zequence> len-dt: It's up to the user, if he/she wants the distro icon there, or not
[15:05] <len-dt> zequence, the icons package can put icons in two places. Our US logo can go only into our theme and the menu icons can go into hi color. All themes depend on hi color.
[15:07] <len-dt> For maintenance purposes, where would someone expect to find icons? I would think in the icon package.
[15:08] <zequence> The only situation when we want icons is on the ISO itself, and when the user installs -desktop. If someone installs only -settings, that person is probably not willing to change icon theme as well
[15:08] <zequence> Cause, that person is probably not even using XFCE
[15:08] <len-dt> The icons are not unique to xfce
[15:08] <zequence> len-dt: Yea, but the menu is
[15:09] <len-dt> The menu format is not and could be used othgerwise.
[15:09] <smartboyhw> Now wait a minute zequence NOT ONLY THE ISO
[15:09] <smartboyhw> I someones see window icons also with Xubuntu icons....
[15:09] <len-dt> In fact I should try changing the name of the menu file
[15:10] <len-dt> smartboyhw, we don't supply window icons.
[15:10] <smartboyhw> len-dt, er I mean those at the top left of windows
[15:11] <smartboyhw> If they weren't included in the applications it will use the Xubuntu ones
[15:11] <len-dt> mine look like v
[15:11] <smartboyhw> len-dt, looks like what?
[15:11] <len-dt> Do you mean the top left of eny window or top left of the screen.
[15:11] <zequence> I'm not following. Where are these icons exactly?
[15:12] <smartboyhw> len-dt, first options
[15:12] <len-dt> We only have the main menu icon, distro icon and some submenu icons.
[15:12] <smartboyhw> Wait let me give you a screenshot
[15:13] <zequence> len-dt: In either case, I don't see why the menu should depend on an icon theme. Installing -settings does not mean you are running a Ubuntu Studio distro
[15:14] <len-dt> it does mean you are adding our menu... and that menu would be broken without the icons to support it.
[15:14] <smartboyhw> zequence, /me agrees
[15:14] <len-dt> zequence, should we then include the icons in settings?
[15:15] <smartboyhw> len-dt, zequence as I say always the solution: Just copy all the icons from xubuntu-icon-theme, delete the distributor-logo in there and replace it with ours.....
[15:15] <smartboyhw> Then just change icons whatever we like
[15:15] <len-dt> smartboyhw, not needed
[15:16] <smartboyhw> len-dt, at least I think that is easier than having long discussions about what to put in what
[15:16] <zequence> len-dt: I don't think we should supply icons with settings at all. The menu should point to standard icons by their functional name, just like all the other icons in the menu. 
[15:16] <len-dt> Those discusions are there anyway
[15:16] <len-dt> There are no standard icons for custom submenus.
[15:16] <smartboyhw> Now here
[15:17] <smartboyhw> http://s13.postimage.org/55lp9drnn/Screenshot_11172012_11_12_55_PM.jpg?noCache=1353165377
[15:17] <len-dt> That is why we are suppling them.
[15:17] <smartboyhw> Look at the top-left corner of each window zequence 
[15:18] <len-dt> The shows up really small.
[15:18] <smartboyhw> len-dt, yeah sorry
[15:18] <zequence> len-dt: Perhaps we can use custom functions, and if such were not available, use standard functions. I at least prefer standards
[15:18] <len-dt> Fuctions? or icons?
[15:20] <len-dt> The menu standard gives me one submenu (multimedia) that has so many items in it I can't find the ones I need to work without searching.
[15:20] <len-dt> That is why we have a custom menu at all. The standard is broken.
[15:21] <zequence> len-dt: Find icons by it's functional name. If there is no functional name existing which works, create one
[15:21] <len-dt> Ok and put it where?
[15:21] <zequence> I should probably look more into how all of this works. I'm not talking out of knowing the specifics, but from principle
[15:21] <len-dt> zequence, That is why I was asking should we put them in hi color.
[15:22]  * smartboyhw does not know why he got 3 bugs assigned to him in two days......
[15:22] <len-dt> That is the standard place.
[15:23] <zequence> len-dt: Give me an example of such an icon in hi color
[15:24] <len-dt> zequence, the icon themes are a layered setup. hi color is the bottom layer. Any icon theme over lays that. and takes the icon in hi colors place.
[15:24] <len-dt> Your question doesn't make sense.
[15:24] <len-dt> Most applications put there icons in hi color.
[15:25] <len-dt> Our icon theme now is about 5 layers deep.
[15:25] <len-dt> We have imported the xubuntu theme, but we don't use it. We use one level down.
[15:25] <len-dt> That is we depend on their depends.
[15:26] <len-dt> We should fix that.
[15:27] <zequence> If I am to understand how it all works, I will need to do some research. This is the only way I can speak about specifics
[15:27] <zequence> I can't answer questions about specifics, if I don't know them
[15:27] <len-dt> Yes.
[15:27] <zequence> But, it would also be a waste of time, if someone else already has the knowledge and could to the work
[15:27] <smartboyhw> zequence, that someone = len-dt :p
[15:29] <len-dt> zequence, the things I think we agree on: Icons should be in there own package. the menu icons shold be theme independant.
[15:29] <zequence> len-dt: Yea, that sounds right
[15:30] <len-dt> Ok. The settings package will have to depend on the package that contains those generic icons.
[15:30] <len-dt> I will work at making sure that our icon theme works without using the xubutu icon theme too.
[15:31] <zequence> I still don't see why -settings has to depend on icons though
[15:31] <len-dt> The menus have to have the icons. other wise they will all look like the utilities icon.
[15:32] <zequence> Didn't you just say the menu icons should not depend on the icon theme. And that the icons should be in their own theme package?
[15:32]  * smartboyhw is just too confused with what len-dt and zequence are talking about
[15:32] <len-dt> The package says theme, but the reality is there are generic icons there too because we don't want to put those in settings.
[15:33] <zequence> If possible, I'd like the icons in the menu to point to icons by their functional name, just as the other icons in the menu does
[15:33] <len-dt> zequence, Yes but those icons have to exist.
[15:33] <len-dt> They don't yet.
[15:34] <len-dt> We are using icons that belong to sw packages right now.
[15:35] <len-dt> In some ways I think the package should not be called icon-theme, just ubuntustudio-icons.
[15:35] <zequence> No, I think we should work from the aspect that the icons belong to a theme. At least those in the menu
[15:35] <len-dt> zequence, we are not really creating a theme... the theme has only one icon.
[15:36] <smartboyhw> Grrr then use ubuntustudio-icon-set
[15:36] <len-dt> zequence, ok, do they belong to the US theme or the generic theme.
[15:36] <zequence> len-dt: How does the menu find the icons to the standard categories. Where is a file I could look at about this?
[15:37] <len-dt> This is all opendesktop stuff.
[15:37] <zequence> You mean freedesktop?
[15:37] <len-dt> the icons are all in /usr/share/icons
[15:37] <len-dt> ya freedesktop.
[15:37] <zequence> I know where the icons are, but how does the menu call them?
[15:37] <len-dt> The standard that xfce is bassed on.
[15:38] <len-dt> Yes.
[15:39] <len-dt> The menu uses some code that bounces through the icon theme structure starting at the top and working its way down till it finds an icon with the name in the *desktop file or the *.directory file.
[15:40] <zequence> len-dt: Where were the *.directory files now again?
[15:40] <len-dt> Each icon theme has an index.theme file
[15:41] <len-dt> The directory files are in /usr/share/desktop-directories
[15:41] <len-dt> The index names the next level down.
[15:42] <len-dt> We could rename all of ours without the ubuntustudio part if we wanted to.
[15:42] <len-dt> Make them fuction only.
[15:43] <len-dt> We can do the same with our icons.
[15:44] <len-dt> Right now... because all our icons are in /usr/share/pixmaps we have added the word ubuntustudio to their names
[15:54] <zequence> len-dt: hicolor, isn't that a place where applications put their icons, when installed?
[15:54] <len-dt> Yes.
[15:55] <len-dt> That is the default icon theme.
[15:55] <len-dt> Every icon theme depends on hicolor
[15:59] <zequence> len-dt: I think we need to adress the icons from two separate packages. I can see the point in keeping the custom menu category icons in -settings, which would add those to hicolor. Those icons would show, no matter which theme. And any distro icon should be in a icon theme package, even if it's just a matter of one icon
[16:00] <len-dt> Ok, so the one distro icon goes in theme and the rest in settings.
[16:00] <zequence> So, I would suggest keeping the custom icons in -settings, and installing them to the hicolor folder. While, other icons (such as the distro logo) should be a part of a separate theme package, which inherits the theme we'd like to use as the Ubuntu Studio theme
[16:01] <zequence> Yea
[16:01] <len-dt> And the menu icons should have generic names that show only function.
[16:02] <zequence> Yea, and we should probably name the custom menu categories after existing freedesktop names as much as possible
[16:03] <len-dt> Like freedesktop category names?
[16:03] <zequence> And in the long run, try to influence standard practice on freedesktop menu categorization and icon themes
[16:04] <zequence> len-dt: I saw there were a lot of names here that seemed to work for us http://specifications.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/menu-spec-latest.html#additional-category-registry
[16:04] <len-dt> That was my thought as well.
[16:04] <zequence> Audio and Video are main categories
[16:05] <zequence> And Graphics too of course
[16:05] <len-dt> Photgraphy is not I think
[16:05] <smartboyhw> Bye all
[16:05] <zequence> Yea, but Photography is one of the Additional categories
[16:05] <len-dt> mixers is there.
[16:05] <zequence> Also Publishing
[16:06] <zequence> midi, sequencer are two other
[16:06] <len-dt> what about effects and sound gen?
[16:07] <zequence> len-dt: Perhaps just redo our menu to incorporate the standards that suit us, so we don't actually change anything right now. Keep the custom menus, and leave any additional changes for the future
[16:08] <zequence> I suspect it'll take a while to come up with something that makes absolute sense for much of the categories
[16:08] <len-dt> I think this is my project for this cycle
[16:10] <zequence> Just upgraded to Raring. The new nautilus is missing one feature, which I liked. Namely being able to open directories in tree view. 
[16:10] <len-dt> Is it still called nautilus or files?
[16:11] <zequence> I guess the name is Files, but the package is nautilus
[16:11] <len-dt> ubuntu has been back and forth on that.
[16:11] <len-dt> 12.04 was files and 12.10 was back to nautilus
[16:11] <zequence> ubuntu decided to use the older nautilus for last release
[16:12] <zequence> They reverted
[16:12] <len-dt> files had huge changes.
[16:12] <len-dt> it may have been a stabilty thing
[16:12] <zequence> Yea, but these are changes made by Gnome, not Ubuntu. I think probably Ubuntu will be using Files in the future too, even though there is some objection
[16:13] <zequence> No, I think it was only because of the interface change actually
[16:13] <len-dt> Does it have an about anywhere?
[16:14] <zequence> Personally, I think nautilus is becoming a bit too dumb for me. But, it's still the most used and best supported file manager. That'll be the reason to keep it
[16:14] <len-dt> I remember trying to file a bug with it and not being able to find out what package it was.
[16:14] <zequence> It's called nautilus
[16:15] <zequence> But, the name in about is "Files"
[16:15] <len-dt> It is more stable than thunar anyway.
[16:15] <len-dt> I think stable is better than pretty
[16:16] <len-dt> There seems to be a move away from the menubar
[16:16] <zequence> Yea. I don't see why they can't keep "advanced settings" for people who like them
[16:17] <len-dt> File a bug.
[16:17] <len-dt> There may be no menubar but there is a menu.
[16:18] <zequence> gnome-shell uses a one button menu in the panel, which is only now being used for other functions than "Quit". Both Web and Nautilus have two menu buttons. One in the panel, and one in the gui. Each having their own functions
[16:18] <len-dt> It works well with unity as well.
[17:00] <len-dt> The distributor-logo that we see now is from elementary-xfce BTW
[17:10] <zequence> len-dt: Ok, so what icons would we need to keep in our own theme right now?
[17:13] <len-dt> The distributor-logo.
[17:13] <len-dt> Its there. just needs upload.
[17:13] <zequence> len-dt: For ubiquity?
[17:14] <len-dt> yes. It could be used for the mainmenu too I think.
[17:14] <zequence> Or, which distributor-logo are we seeing right now, and where? The Ubuntu Studio logo, or Xubuntu?
[17:14] <zequence> Never mind
[17:15] <len-dt> The one we are seeing right now is xfce
[17:15] <len-dt> It is not Xubuntu.
[17:15] <len-dt> We are not using the Xubuntu icon theme even though we load it.
[17:15] <zequence> I have to say the Ubuntu Studio logo is a real killer logo
[17:16]  * len-dt only cares that it is unique and recognizable
[17:16] <len-dt> I'm not much for eye candy.  :)
[17:18] <len-dt> It looks like a should put the menu icon in the panel directory and should make it 22x22