[07:27] <MooDoo> morning all
[08:11] <daubers> Morning
[08:12] <MooDoo> morning daubers
[08:14] <AlanBell> morning
[08:15] <daubers> Must be November
[08:15] <daubers> feels like things need to change
[08:18] <MooDoo> daubers: anything specific?
[08:18] <AlanBell> like socks?
[08:18] <MooDoo> or pants?
[08:20] <daubers> Wondering if it's time to change jobs
[08:20] <daubers> Getting a bit fed up these days
[08:20] <MooDoo> daubers: i've been thinking that for 6 years lol
[08:21] <theopensourcerer> daubers fancy a job in Free Software? ;-)
[08:21]  * MooDoo wishes he code code lol
[08:21] <daubers> theopensourcerer: You probably can't afford me...
[08:21] <daubers> MooDoo: Code is easy
[08:22] <daubers> People are _hard_
[08:22] <MooDoo> daubers: never been a good coder
[08:23] <daubers> MooDoo: I've never been taught to code. The hard bit is learning the underneath stuff, most of the rest is just fluff these days
[08:23] <daubers> Speaking of which, I really should probab;y sit and learn Java :(
[08:23] <MooDoo> daubers: I think I'll stick to being a people person :D
[08:24] <daubers> MooDoo: That's what's driving me potty at the moment
[08:24] <daubers> Much rather go back to just working with machines
[08:25] <MooDoo> daubers: why's that?
[08:25] <daubers> At least when they annoy me I can kick them
[08:25] <daubers> (the machines, you get in trouble for doing that to people apparently)
[08:25] <popey> morning
[08:25] <MooDoo> morning popey
[08:25] <theopensourcerer> shh everyone it's popey
[08:26] <popey> yes. shh!
[08:26] <daubers> popey is the librarian?
[08:26] <MooDoo> theopensourcerer: it's fine, the recorder is on and pointed at popey shhh
[08:26] <popey> screw java daubers, learn Go!
[08:26] <popey> It's the language of the future
[08:26] <theopensourcerer> Hah - ever read any Terry Pratchett daubers?
[08:26]  * popey makes wibbley wobbly noises and actions
[08:26] <daubers> popey: I thought it was still a toy
[08:27] <daubers> theopensourcerer: Indeed! Though I think calling popey an orangutang is a bit harsh
[08:27] <daubers> :p
[08:27] <theopensourcerer> lol - yeah - they have a *lot* more hair
[08:27] <MooDoo> theopensourcerer: daubers do they extreame iron on discworld?
[08:28] <theopensourcerer> I don't think there is a lot of ironing done at all, especially in Anhk Morpork
[08:30] <MooDoo> theopensourcerer: popey should open a extreame ironing guild then....
[08:30] <theopensourcerer> With the extra "a" in extreme or not?
[08:32] <AlanBell> I don't think the seamstresses guild get up to much ironing
[08:32] <MooDoo> theopensourcerer: yes it's ankh morpork, they do things differently there
[08:33] <theopensourcerer> Does anyone know if rsync is in the habit of leaving temp data lying around after being pushed with some stuff? And if so where does it leave it? It isn't in /tmp
[08:33] <theopensourcerer> And it isn't in the destination dir either
[08:34] <daubers> theopensourcerer: I don't think so.... why?
[08:34] <theopensourcerer> I have a suspiciously growing file system for no reason other than I switched from scp to rsync a few days ago...
[08:35] <Flashtek> theopensourcerer: rsync would only do that if interrupted part way through
[08:35] <theopensourcerer> That's what I though Flashtek
[08:35] <theopensourcerer> s/thought
[08:36] <theopensourcerer> But this transfer completes without error according to my logs.
[08:36] <Flashtek> du -sh help ?
[08:36] <theopensourcerer> Nope.
[08:37] <popey> are you doing --delete on the rsync?
[08:37] <popey> and are you copying over the top of files already existing?
[08:38] <theopensourcerer> df -h has shown an increase since yesterday of several Gigs (overnight rsync copy). The dir in which data the data has been copied is not noticeably bigger.
[08:38] <popey> without --delete you'll grow
[08:38] <theopensourcerer> Yes am using --delete popey
[08:38] <popey> I'd use baobab to see where the disk space has been used
[08:38] <popey> run baobab on your local machine and point it at the remote box
[08:41] <theopensourcerer> rsync ${RSYNC_OPTS} -e "ssh ${KEY_OPTS}" ${LDEST}/ ${REMUSER}@${REMHOST}:${DESTDIR}
[08:41] <theopensourcerer> RSYNC_OPTS="-aqz --delete"
[08:43] <czajkowski> For the rugby business folks in here http://www.therugbybusinessnetwork.com/
[08:44] <daubers> theopensourcerer: There is a slight issue with --delete if you read the man page.....
[08:45] <daubers> theopensourcerer: "This tells rsync to delete extraneous files from the receiving side (ones that aren’t on the sending side), but only for the directories that are being synchronized."
[08:45] <daubers> i.e. if you delete a directory it won't be deleted on the other side
[08:54] <diplo> Morning all
[08:54]  * diplo _hates_ school runs!
[09:23] <JamesTait> Good morning all! :-D
[09:27] <MooDoo> morning JamesTait
[09:30] <JamesTait> MooDoo, o/
[09:30] <MooDoo> :D
[09:31] <popey> theopensourcerer, AlanBell what display (and res) was it you bought for the office?
[09:35] <theopensourcerer> popey: The old once were Samsung 2343BW (2048x1152). But when we moved we also bought some Viewsonic standard 1920 ones.
[09:36] <popey> ahh
[09:36] <AlanBell> the samsungs rotate as well, the viewsonics don't
[09:36] <theopensourcerer> And they have height adjustment
[09:37] <directhex> so
[09:37] <directhex> monitor protip
[09:38] <directhex> ask yourself which two of the following you want: high resolution; decent 'side features' like rotate or nice on-screen display or height-adjustable stand; money in your pocket
[09:39] <AlanBell> I like rotate, and high resolution
[09:39] <theopensourcerer> The sammys were excellent value imho - £115?
[09:39] <theopensourcerer> Not made anymore unfortunately
[09:39]  * BigRedS likes cheap and high-res
[09:39] <Laney> been considering some of those cheap ebay ones
[09:39] <directhex> BigRedS, how about 1440p 27" IPS monitors for <£300?
[09:39] <theopensourcerer> Did you see the new Dell super wide monitor?
[09:40] <directhex> Laney, there's a hack to the ebay situation, if you want things like a "warranty", but don't want to spend a lot of money
[09:40] <theopensourcerer> http://accessories.ap.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=au&l=en&cs=audhs1&sku=210-41183&baynote_bnrank=0&baynote_irrank=0&~ck=baynoteSearch
[09:40] <AlanBell> directhex: where is such a monitor (1440p)
[09:40] <theopensourcerer> Wide Full-HD 2560 x 1080
[09:41] <directhex> AlanBell, well, 1440p is the new norm at 27", you'll find it on e.g. dell 2711
[09:41] <theopensourcerer> That's nice. IPS panel, swivel, tilt and height
[09:42] <directhex> thing is, check the price on a 27" 1440p IPS screen: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dell-U2711-Ultrasharp-Premier-Widescreen/dp/B003A4H17S
[09:44] <directhex> now, small korean companies discovered that they could buy the same IPS panels as dell, on the cheap, from rejected batches - i.e. dell tests one panel from a box of 300, rejects it as defective, and the whole 300 screen box gets disposed of... small companies test all the panels and keep the good ones, to put into their own super-budget displays. same panel as a £600 dell, for rather less
[09:44] <Laney> directhex: yeah?
[09:44] <BigRedS> directhex: I've lost track fo what counts as 'high' recently, but is it still only 1440 across the top of a 27"?
[09:44] <directhex> e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-ACHIEVA-27-LED-2560x1440-WQHD-S-IPS-Quad-HD-Monitor-QH270-Lite-/130672717643?pt=UK_Computing_ComputerComponents_Monitors&hash=item1e6cb36f4b
[09:44] <AlanBell> BigRedS: nope, that is the vertical
[09:44] <directhex> BigRedS, 2560x1440
[09:45] <directhex> so, a lot of korean ebay sellers are flogging the same 27" ips *panel* as dell, strapped into a monitor chassis, for less than £250 (plus duty when it lands in the UK)
[09:46] <directhex> they commonly miss out on some features. e.g. most of the korean specials only have DVI input, and no HDCP
[09:46] <popey> gosh
[09:46] <directhex> like that one i linked to
[09:46] <AlanBell> that is rather nice, but it wouldn't be drivable from my laptop
[09:47] <directhex> they're generally LED backlit too, which is nice
[09:47] <theopensourcerer> popey: baobab failed to run on my server... :-(
[09:48] <directhex> so, anyway, what i'm getting at is there's a middle ground
[09:48] <popey> you run it locally, and tell it to connect via ssh to the remote box
[09:48] <theopensourcerer> ~$ baobab
[09:48] <theopensourcerer> Gtk-Message: Failed to load module "canberra-gtk-module"
[09:48] <popey> its a gui app
[09:48] <theopensourcerer> Yeh I did ssh -X
[09:48] <popey> no
[09:48] <popey> its a gui app
[09:48] <popey> run it locally
[09:48] <theopensourcerer> OK. Will try from here instead.
[09:48] <popey> its already on your pc
[09:48] <directhex> there's a company in the global tech powerhouse of ruislip which is building korean specials, with a 3 year warranty, and multiple inputs, and hdcp
[09:49] <directhex> so the only downsides versus the £600 dell become "lack of nice on-screen display" and "crummy stand"
[09:49] <theopensourcerer> so it is ;-)
[09:49] <popey> speakers?
[09:49] <directhex> http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-003-DG
[09:49] <directhex> - Internal Speaker: Built-in Stereo Speakers
[09:49] <popey> my point being they'll be crappier than dell?
[09:50] <popey> adding to the 'only downsides'
[09:50] <directhex> dell monitors require a "soundbar" accessory for speakers, iirc?
[09:50] <popey> not that everyone needs speakers in their display of course
[09:50] <Laney> my monitors are easily the worst part of my PC now
[09:50] <popey> but when you have crap speakers in your laptop (like I do)
[09:50] <directhex> http://search.dell.co.uk/1/2/2010-dell-ax510-ultrasharp-and-professional-series-flat-panel-stereo-soundbar.html
[09:50] <AlanBell> vesa fixings, so the stand isn't much of an issue
[09:51] <directhex> anyway, point is, the cost difference between digimate and dell is £200, for the same LCD panel and the same connectivity
[09:51] <directhex> so £200 buys you a stand and an OSD
[09:52] <popey> "start doing more with your speakers"
[09:53] <Laney> kinky
[09:59] <daubers> popey: I just use the speakers that came with my first (dell) PC. Still pretty good for freebies
[09:59] <daubers> over 10 y/o freebies too
[09:59] <popey> yeah, I am doing the same for my desktop
[09:59] <popey> but want something better for the laptop
[09:59] <daubers> heh :)
[09:59] <daubers> Used to have 7.1 surround on my old pc
[09:59] <daubers> Kinda miss that
[10:00] <daubers> though decent headphones make up for it a bit
[10:00] <popey> i have decent headphones but dont like wearing them because I miss phone calls, doorbell etc
[10:00] <popey> and people walk in and scare the crap out of me
[10:01] <mgdm> get daubers to sort you out with a Jabber-powered doorbell
[10:02] <daubers> Heh :)
[10:03] <daubers> mgdm: Can do better than that these days. Got some finished designs for a zigbee powered one
[10:03] <mgdm> shiny!
[10:03] <daubers> Where do the cd iso's exist these days? cdimages.ubuntu.com just shows me server cd's for some reason? (Unless I'm looking in the wrong place)
[10:03] <daubers> Looking here http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/releases/12.10/release/
[10:05] <daubers> Going to try and install Ubuntu on a 2011 Mac Mini
[10:15] <directhex> daubers, cd is dead, dude
[10:15] <directhex> they got rid of horrible bloated mono, and ended up at almost 800mb for the iso
[10:15] <MooDoo> directhex: only for techs.
[10:21] <popey> daubers, mini iso
[10:23] <daubers> popey: Where is said iso :) cdimages seems to be somewhat empty
[10:23] <Laney> releases.ubuntu.com
[10:23] <Laney> is where you're more likely to find the image you want
[10:24] <daubers> Laney: Magic! Many thanks :)
[10:24] <popey> google mini iso
[10:24] <Laney> as for mini.iso, that lives in the archive
[10:24] <popey> first hit
[10:24] <Laney> dists/somestuff/installer-someotherstuff/somemorestuff/mini.iso
[10:24] <popey> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD
[10:24] <popey> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/quantal/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/mini.iso
[10:24] <Laney> psh, documentation
[10:25] <Laney> it all must fit in brain
[10:25]  * Laney hits head harder
[10:25] <daubers> popey: There is that... but logically one would have thought it would have been in cdimages.
[10:25] <popey> nah
[10:25] <Laney> it's built by a separate process
[10:25] <popey> cdimages isn't supposed to be the place to go
[10:26] <popey> ubuntu.com/download is the first port of call :)
[10:26] <daubers> I went there! But remembered there was a mac specific iso somewhere
[10:26] <daubers> didn't really have any options for it at ubuntu.com/download
[10:27] <popey> you dont have to use a mac specific iso
[10:28] <AlanBell> why does amd64+mac exist then?
[10:28] <daubers> At http://releases.ubuntu.com/quantal/ there is one that says " This image is adjusted to work properly on Mac systems."
[10:28] <popey> yup
[10:28] <AlanBell> are we tied to the confusing file names?
[10:28] <popey> http://askubuntu.com/questions/37999/what-is-different-about-the-mac-iso-image/612
[10:28] <SuperMatt> I don't actually know what those differences are
[10:28] <SuperMatt> and there's the answer to my question
[10:28] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:29] <SuperMatt> morning brobostigon
[10:29] <popey> so you should be able to use the standard 12.04 image
[10:29] <AlanBell> for most people an i386 is a computer from the 80s, and doesn't scream "32 bit" (and doesn't run on a 386)
[10:29] <brobostigon> morning SuperMatt
[10:29] <daubers> Right ok
[10:29] <AlanBell> and amd64 doesn't sound like it is of any interest to people who have an intel inside sticker on the box
[10:30] <popey> i386?
[10:30] <Laney> ubuntu.com/download does say "32 bit" or "64 bit"
[10:30] <popey> there is no mention of i386 or amd64 on the download pag...
[10:30] <popey> as laney says
[10:30] <SuperMatt> I remember my old days of buying games, checking the box to see if it said "IBM compatible"
[10:30] <SuperMatt> which was silly because I didn't have an IBM
[10:30] <SuperMatt> christ, I think my computer was a time machine
[10:31] <SuperMatt> not the kind that goes through time, but the kind that died out in the 9s0
[10:31] <SuperMatt> 90s
[10:31]  * daubers grabs a regular iso instead
[10:32] <AlanBell> popey: no mention on the page, but you download ubuntu-12.10-desktop-i386.iso
[10:32] <popey> not sure people care about the filename
[10:33] <theopensourcerer> popey: See G+. Baobab failed terribly. Said my VM has 140.8TB used!
[10:34] <popey> hmm, do you have lots of things mounted on the VM?
[10:34] <daubers> theopensourcerer: Got a recursive symlink?
[10:34] <popey> wow, thats odd
[10:35] <popey> bet you have ISO images mounted?
[10:35] <popey> so it's recursively scanning them
[10:36] <popey> debian bug 398288
[10:36] <popey> maybe not
[10:36] <AlanBell> we found a 128T kcore file in /proc
[10:37] <AlanBell> what is that then?
[10:37] <AlanBell> ls -l /proc/kcore
[10:37] <theopensourcerer> Yeah - it's that.
[10:37] <theopensourcerer> There's one in my lappy too
[10:37] <popey> same here
[10:37] <theopensourcerer> Wazzat then?
[10:38] <popey> http://www.novell.com/support/kb/doc.php?id=7004153
[10:38] <popey> "Note: On 64-bit systems the size of /proc/kcore is even 128TB because that's the absolute limit of what 64-bit systems can allocate.
[10:38] <popey> "
[10:38] <popey> I've never had it barf on that file before
[10:38] <popey> wonder if you can set baobab to exclude that file
[10:38] <theopensourcerer> But baobab shouldn't be reporting that.
[10:38]  * AlanBell decides not to delete it
[10:39] <theopensourcerer> popey: Over ssh? To a vm?
[10:39] <popey> yeah, doesn't look like you can exclude it
[10:39] <popey> so ignore that file in your analysis :)
[10:40] <theopensourcerer> Thing is I'm bored now. It took so long to build that map and it was far from helpful with a 128TB file rather skewing the graph...
[10:41] <popey> but if you sort by size, you can just dive into the biggest folder and find the culprits
[10:42]  * theopensourcerer has moved on to other things for the time being and will go back to that one later.
[10:42] <popey> interestingly it doesn't do it on my desktop
[10:43] <popey> you didnt do it as root did you?
[10:43] <theopensourcerer> no
[10:43] <popey> hmm, odd
[10:43] <popey> hey ho
[10:43] <popey> file a bug ;)
[10:43] <popey> woah, 3.5GB in my /var/log/bootchart
[10:43] <popey> see, baobab is awesome :)
[10:46] <popey> ooh, 3.5GB saved in /usr/src too
[10:46] <popey> wondered why my ssd was a bit full
[10:47]  * diplo google baobab :) got me interested now
[10:47] <diplo> ah, dua,, I like that program
[10:48] <popey> i like that its named after a big tree
[10:51] <theopensourcerer> An upside down tree no less
[10:56] <popey> haha, my thunderbird folder is 30GB
[10:57]  * AlanBell deleted 20GB of stuff
[10:57] <theopensourcerer> Bloody hell!
[10:57] <theopensourcerer> My .thunderbird is 5.7GB
[10:57] <AlanBell> mine is 24.7GB
[10:57]  * theopensourcerer notes that du -sh was much faster than running baobab
[10:59] <popey> 29G	.thunderbird/
[10:59] <popey> :(
[10:59] <theopensourcerer> that's a lot of pr0n popey
[10:59] <popey> 18G	./canonical-com.sbd
[11:00] <theopensourcerer> Exactly.
[11:00]  * popey compacts
[11:04] <Daviey> dave@voodoo:/var/log/bootchart$ du -h
[11:04] <Daviey> 3.2G	.
[11:04] <Daviey> crikey.
[11:05] <Daviey> popey: raise a bug for it not log rotating properly.. kktnx
[11:13] <popey> Daviey, bug 1081066
[11:13] <popey> pls to confirm
[11:13] <popey> and fix
[11:14] <diplo> And he did it :P
[11:15] <diplo> I'd add the Daviey comment as well tbh
[11:15] <Daviey> popey: Grr, 2-factor lockout :)
[11:15] <Daviey> popey: want me to sponsor your fix?
[11:15] <popey> press the blue button!
[11:15] <Daviey> popey: on my MBP.
[11:16] <popey> failbook
[11:16] <popey> I'll test your fix Daviey
[11:17] <Daviey> popey: appreciate it.
[11:22] <Dave2> I'll test your fix.
[11:47] <popey> https://plus.google.com/u/0/118165493193465533929/posts/6HFh4evUKpe
[11:47] <popey> *boggle*
[11:47] <popey> that wasn't designed
[11:47] <popey> wish we could revert that
[11:57] <SuperMatt> ok, will ubuntu ever do the usr merge, or does it require debian to do it first?
[12:01] <directhex> ubuntu doesn't want systemd, and systemd is the only reason to do /usr merge
[12:02] <SuperMatt> but what are the reasons "why not?"
[12:03] <directhex> canonical already invested in upstart. why change?
[12:03] <SuperMatt> of course, but would the merge make a difference to upstart?
[12:52] <ali1234> yeah that file requester thing is terrible
[12:53] <ali1234> whoever thought it would be a good idea to populate it with a list of recently used files when you're trying to save a new file?
[12:54] <AlanBell> it doesn't though
[12:54] <AlanBell> it presents a list of recently used folders
[12:54] <ali1234> what's the difference?
[12:55] <AlanBell> the latter is useful
[12:55] <ali1234> no, it isn't
[12:56] <ali1234> it might be useful if it was limited to the folders you've accessed in that particular app, but it isn't
[12:56] <AlanBell> right, so I want to create a new file for something I am working on, I type stuff, hit save, it presents several recent places I have saved stuff and asks me which one I want to save it in, even if those places are scattered round my filesystem or remote
[12:56] <ali1234> it seems to just be a random list of folders from the computer
[12:57] <ali1234> it has "/home" in the list here
[12:57] <ali1234> that directory isn't even writable
[12:58] <AlanBell> hmm, dunno. It is yet another "is it broken or are the designers on controlled substances?" kind of things again
[12:58] <ali1234> what is actually useful is bookmarks
[12:58] <ali1234> i just make one when i start working on a project, then remove it when i am finished
[12:59] <ali1234> and unlike the 17 "src" directories listed in recent, i actuallyknow where the bookmarks point to
[12:59] <AlanBell> ah, that is an unfortunate naming convention when context is taken away
[13:00] <ali1234> i suppose recent is not worse than just defaulting to home direcory
[13:00] <ali1234> when you use bookmarks
[13:00] <ali1234> since i'm just going to click on a bookmark either way
[13:00] <AlanBell> I can fully see why dumping things in /home/alan is not to be encouraged
[13:01] <ali1234> i thought ignoring the file system structure and just using search to find things was absolutely to be encouraged?
[13:01] <ali1234> i mean it's basically the only sensible way to use unity
[13:24] <forgetful> I have a netbook that has built in bluetooth, but it's not recognised by Ubuntu. I tried an external USB one and that works fine. I think the problem maybe it won't wake up, because the function keys to start it don't work under Ubuntu. the ones for Wireless start and stop wireless perfectly. Any ideas how to wake the built in bluetooth?
[13:25] <dwatkins> forgetful: I assume the bluetooth is enabled in the BIOS.
[13:25] <dwatkins> Does it work under other operating systems?
[13:26] <forgetful> Well it was when Windows XP ran on here last week and I haven't changed anything. I suppose I should check that though
[13:26] <forgetful> Yes it worked under windows XP
[13:26] <dwatkins> I didn't even realise my netbook had Bluetooth until I noticed it in the specs.
[13:26] <dwatkins> Does dmesg or lspci mention the bluetooth adapter (possibly lsusb, depending on the type of adapter)
[13:27] <forgetful> I didn't notice for while, but i want to use BT h/phones
[13:29] <forgetful> If it worked under XP it must be enabled in BIOS, yes dwatkins ?
[13:29] <dwatkins> forgetful: I imagine so, yes
[13:36] <forgetful> bluetooth is internal usb isn't it? So I need lsusb?
[13:37] <dwatkins> I'm not sure, mine only shows up in dmesg, not lsusb nor lspci (which might be because I've not configured any driver for it)
[13:37] <dwatkins> Do you know if the chipset is supported by the OS?
[13:37] <forgetful> No that's what I'm trying to find out now
[13:38] <dwatkins> have a look at the output of dmesg, it should mention bluetooth in there and tell you the kind of device so you can look it up online
[13:40] <forgetful> How do I do that grep thing so I can filter the dmesg output - cos there's a lot
[13:40] <dwatkins> dmesg | grep -i bluetooth
[13:40] <dwatkins> (case insensitive)
[13:42] <forgetful> It looks like RFCOMM I've never hard of them
[13:43] <dwatkins> That's the protocol, I gather.
[13:43] <forgetful> Ah yeah
[13:43] <dwatkins> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_protocols#Radio_frequency_communication_.28RFCOMM.29 (as you may have just seen)
[13:44] <forgetful> Ah got it seems to be Intel 6.2.1.800
[13:47] <forgetful> Seems to be actually made by  broadcom
[13:48] <popey> AlanBell, the designers weren't consulted apparently
[13:49] <forgetful> I think I drew the short straw dwatkins
[13:49] <forgetful> No drivers for that it seems
[13:50] <dwatkins> oh bah, forgetful; that's a shame
[13:51] <dwatkins> oly: there may be a thread on ubuntuforums about it
[13:51] <dwatkins> oops, I meant to type forgetful there ;)
[13:53] <forgetful> I was reading a forum posts and something else puzzles me. some say you can't use the Mic on this netbook but that's working fine for me
[13:54] <forgetful> I had to turn it up in sound settings as it was right off, but after that it worked
[14:28] <ali1234> how can i catch USB flash drive insert events before gnome gets them?
[14:37] <gord> i doubt you can get them guarunteed before gnome
[14:38] <gord> well i guess you could modify the kernel
[14:40] <ali1234> or udev
[14:40] <ali1234> i need to do it without root though
[14:40] <ali1234> allow me to explain the problem
[14:40] <ali1234> i have written a tool which detects when you plug in a flash drive, formats the drive, copies and verifies a set of files, then unmounts the drive
[14:41] <ali1234> the problem is it fights with nautilus for mounting and unmounting
[14:41] <ali1234> i can make it wait for nautilus to mount the drive, but then it waits forever if automounting is disabled
[14:41] <ali1234> i could make it wait a really long time and then give up (like 1 minute) but that kind of defeats the purpose
[14:42] <ali1234> the time taken by nautilus to mount the drive is really variable
[14:42] <ali1234> i could make it disable nautilus automounting at startup, but then it is making changes to the user's config which is bad
[14:42] <ali1234> i could make it put back the change when it exits, but it won't do that if it crashes for some reason, so that's bad too
[14:43] <ali1234> the only reasonable thing to do is to somehow catch the events before nautilus gets them
[14:48] <AlanBell> ali1234: can you make your tool a nautilus extension?
[14:48] <ali1234> i have no idea
[14:49] <AlanBell> so it happens after nautilus has done its thing and nautilus calls it
[14:49] <ali1234> considering that it is meant to run non-interactive, probably not
[14:50] <ali1234> it currently catches events from udisks
[14:50] <ali1234> on dbus
[14:50] <ali1234> nautilus must get events from somewhere
[14:51] <ali1234> i just need to figure out how to insert my own code between "somewhere" and nautilus
[14:51] <directhex> sigh. #thunderbird on mozilla irc is a graveyard
[14:53] <dwatkins> not much of a community, then :-/
[14:58] <ahayzen> Hi, was just running memtest and ran into bug 1071209, surely this sort of bug should be fixed and/or put into the release notes? Andy
[14:59] <ali1234> i guess nobody uses memtest :(
[14:59] <ali1234> and who is andy?
[14:59] <ahayzen> me :)
[15:00] <ali1234> should probably be fixed in the release notes, yeah
[15:00] <ali1234> you can add release-notes to the bug and put a comment to that effect
[15:01] <ahayzen> ali1234, how would i do that?
[15:02] <ali1234> also affects project -> ubuntu-release-notes
[15:02] <ali1234> i've just done it btw
[15:02] <ali1234> or not
[15:02] <ahayzen> uhoh
[15:03] <ali1234> done :)
[15:03] <ahayzen> ah there we go
[15:03] <ahayzen> ali1234, thanks :)
[15:04] <ahayzen> it is a pretty epic failure ... like accuses ur RAM of failing on nearly every address :-O
[15:04] <ali1234> yeah, it's bad :(
[15:04] <ali1234> especially when we tell people to run memtest all the time
[15:05] <ahayzen> yeah
[15:05] <ali1234> but never check to see if it actually works
[15:05] <AlanBell> that could be an expensive bug
[15:05] <ali1234> yes
[15:05] <ahayzen> yep could have been
[15:05] <ahayzen> well still could be for others...if they don't know
[15:13] <ali1234> btw, i assume you've checked the release notes to confirm it isn't already there :)
[15:15] <ahayzen> ali1234, couldn't see anything here...https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuDesktop#Known_Issues ... and couldn't find the bug number
[16:00] <ali1234> http://www.youtube.com/charts/videos_views?t=a
[16:00] <ali1234> why is the top video only 496M views?
[16:00] <ali1234> psy has over 700M
[16:00] <ali1234> so does justin beiber
[16:01] <directhex> ali1234, there's a new youtube ranking algorith which promotes videos viewed by people spending large periods of time watching multiple videos, and punishes videos viewed in isolation
[16:02] <ali1234> it doesn't say "top vidoes according to our algorithm" it says "most views"
[16:03] <ali1234> if you scroll to the bottom and change location from "uk" to "worldwide" you get the real results
[16:04] <ali1234> and worldwide = US apparently - look at the url it sent me to: http://www.youtube.com/charts/videos_views?gl=US&t=a
[16:36] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: yes, don't you know?
[16:36] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: they play the WORLD SERIES there, after all
[17:03] <directhex> and miss world?
[17:03] <directhex> miss universe too!
[17:23] <popey> gosh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ6zr6kCPj8 is more popular than I'd imagined
[17:26] <popey> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84WpcmJ28Yg is of course better
[17:27] <Laney> http://youtu.be/4NO-h9PFum4 no this
[17:27] <popey> *blink*
[17:28] <popey> someone broke Laney
[17:29]  * Laney does the dance
[17:31]  * MartijnVdS can't wait
[17:33]  * MartijnVdS will have a proper internet connection next week, just ordered 100/100mbit :)
[20:22] <ali1234> looks like i'm getting yet another tumbleweed badge
[20:23] <popey> a what?
[20:25] <ali1234> http://stackoverflow.com/badges/63/tumbleweed
[20:27] <AlanBell> and now the dilemma is do you post a link here, thereby reducing your badge possibilities?
[20:27] <AlanBell> it is like The Game really
[20:28] <ali1234> i already have the badge, so whatever :/
[20:29] <ali1234> this is the question i got it for already: http://askubuntu.com/questions/32598/how-to-use-xephyr-without-disabling-access-control-or-using-xdmcp
[20:32] <popey> you should have added /63 on the end
[20:32] <popey> to get the announcer badge
[20:32] <popey> http://stackoverflow.com/badges/63/tumbleweed/63
[20:32] <popey> maybe not
[20:32] <popey> ignore me
[20:32] <ali1234> wut
[20:33] <popey> :)
[20:33] <ali1234> you get announcer by using the "share" permalinks: http://askubuntu.com/q/32598/12435
[20:33] <popey> yeah
[20:33] <ali1234> 12435 being my user id
[20:33] <ali1234> but i doubt it works on closed questions
[20:38] <shauno> your nautilus one; would a sane compromise be to read org.gnome.desktop.media-handling/automount  and wait when it's true?
[20:38] <ali1234> yeah i suppose that's an ok solution
[20:38] <ali1234> waiting doesn't always work though
[20:39] <ali1234> because there's another option "open nautilus automatically to show files"
[20:39] <ali1234> and if the volume is open in nautilus you can't unmount it
[20:39] <ali1234> but maybe you can... somehow... but that's a different question
[20:39] <shauno> right, automount-open under the same path
[20:40] <ali1234> yeah. i need to prevent both, ideally
[20:40] <shauno> aware it's less than ideal, but I haven't been under the hood since gnome 2.2-ish
[20:40] <ali1234> i might just pop a window saying "i am going to permanently disable these settings. reenable them if you want"
[20:42] <diplo> evening all
[20:42] <shauno> I get the idea, but udisks didn't exist last time I messed with it :)
[20:42] <AlanBell> ali1234: just don't do the -ac thing :)
[20:42] <ali1234> wut
[20:42] <ali1234> if you don't do the -ac thing, you can't do DISPLAY=:1
[20:42] <AlanBell> Xephyr -screen 800x600 -retro :1 <- do that in one terminal
[20:42] <ali1234> you get permission denied
[20:42] <AlanBell> DISPLAY=:1 xterm <- do that in another
[20:42] <ali1234> yes, that works now, because Xephyr runs with ac off by default now
[20:43] <AlanBell> result, xterm in your Xephyr
[20:43] <ali1234> yeah, and no access control
[20:43] <AlanBell> ah :(
[20:43] <AlanBell> so, how do you turn on ac?
[20:43] <ali1234> +ac i think
[20:43] <shauno> xephyr is the new xnest?
[20:43] <ali1234> yep
[20:45] <ali1234> the answer is going to involve xauth and making Xephyr run xterm as a child process, in the same environment
[20:45] <AlanBell> yeah, it needs to be like a shell
[20:46] <ali1234> this is something that bugged me in ubuntu for a long time. you can ctrl-alt-f1, log in, and then do DISPLAY=:0 whatever
[20:46] <ali1234> and it appears on your X11 display
[20:46] <ali1234> this isn't supposed to work
[20:47] <ali1234> but fr the longest time, ubuntu ran with -ac and tcp connections disabled to make up for it
[20:49] <AlanBell> ali1234: lightdm --test-mode
[20:49] <AlanBell> oh, actually that uses -ac
[20:50] <AlanBell> nvm
[20:50] <ali1234> of course :)
[20:50] <ali1234> also, i didn't want to use a greeter or window manager
[20:51] <ali1234> the reason i was trying to do it was to develop a window manager
[20:51] <AlanBell> any particular interesting feature in your window manager?
[20:52] <ali1234> yes, it would be designed specifically to manage the display on a G19 keyboard
[20:52] <ali1234> that means 320x240 display, always fullscreen, and window management done with the special buttons on the keyboard
[20:52] <AlanBell> ah, right
[20:53] <ali1234> and on the real hardware, instead of xephyr, it would just run xfbdev in the same way
[20:53] <AlanBell> ok, does that bit work?
[20:53] <ali1234> what, running xfbdev on g19? sure
[20:53] <ali1234> but you can't connect any software to it without disabling access control
[20:53] <AlanBell> which would be bad
[20:54] <ali1234> http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/random/20100726_003.jpg
[20:54] <AlanBell> lol
[20:54] <ali1234> if the machine has no other displays you can put the main operating system on it
[20:55] <ali1234> with some hacking anyway
[20:55] <ali1234> but the idea is that it should all run userspace
[20:55] <ali1234> so launch xfbdev, then launch wm, which would take over the input devices and the framebuffer
[20:56] <AlanBell> I see
[20:57] <ali1234> it's all been superceded by gnome15 anyway now, which does not use a kernel framebuffer driver
[20:57] <ali1234> or a window manager
[20:57] <ali1234> so it's rather limited
[20:57] <ali1234> but i only have a clock on the thing anyway, so meh
[20:57] <ali1234> also why does pidgin say i spelled "superceded" wrong?
[20:58] <ali1234> superseded
[20:58] <ali1234> hmm
[20:59] <AlanBell> with the s is apparently more correct
[20:59] <ali1234> so wiktionary includes common mispellings, thus propagating them
[21:02] <AlanBell> and unity is hard coded to :0
[21:03] <ali1234> really? i doubt that, since it is compiz
[21:03] <ali1234> unless they've *really* broken compiz this time
[21:04] <AlanBell> I probably wasn't accurate there
[21:04] <AlanBell> however you can just type unity on tty0 and it will do a window manager replace on :0
[21:05] <ali1234> oh
[21:05] <ali1234> well maybe DISPLAY is just being set by default now?
[21:05] <ali1234> nope
[21:05] <AlanBell> and I just did DISPLAY=:1 unity
[21:05] <AlanBell> and it trampled on :0
[21:05] <ali1234> oh, nice
[21:07] <ali1234> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1373381/
[21:07] <ali1234> did you see the warning? (both times?)
[21:08] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1373383/
[21:08] <AlanBell> I do see the warning normally
[21:08] <ali1234> ah, well you don't have a :1
[21:10] <AlanBell> gah, true enough
[21:10] <AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1373387/
[21:10] <ali1234> yeah that's more what i'd expect
[21:11] <AlanBell> I do have a :2 now
[21:11] <ali1234> is that a xephyr?
[21:11] <AlanBell> yes
[21:11] <ali1234> you need special patches for 3d in xephyr
[21:11] <ali1234> no idea if they ever made it into ubuntu
[21:11] <AlanBell> sure, I wasn't expecting it to actually work
[21:11] <ali1234> the patches were made for meego, since it's UI also required opengl
[21:11] <ali1234> but they are probably abandoned by now
[21:12] <ali1234> they should work
[21:12] <ali1234> llvmpipe should work on 12.10, in theory
[21:13] <ali1234> actually meego used llvmpipe in xephyr
[21:13] <ali1234> so i dunno why it doesn't work, tbh
[21:46] <SuperEngineer> omg... it's back from under the bridge
[21:56] <ali1234> i'm really happy i found that cpu governor setting in cyanogenmod
[21:56] <ali1234> i haven't needed to charge the phone yet
[22:52] <popey> evening