| ttoine | hi | 08:11 |
|---|---|---|
| ttoine | can someone tell me if it is possible to backport soundconverter in 12.10, maybe 12.04 ? Bug #1077508 | 08:14 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 1077508 in soundconverter (Ubuntu) "2.0.1 is bugged, update to 2.0.4" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077508 | 08:14 |
| smartboyhw | ttoine, yes.... | 08:15 |
| smartboyhw | ttoine, use requestbackport command in terminal (install ubuntu-dev-tools first) | 08:16 |
| ttoine | smartboyhw, is it not possible to use launchpad ? It is fixed in Debian, but not in Ubuntu... | 08:20 |
| zequence | ttoine: The procedure is to use the command tools (it's integrated with launchpad) | 08:28 |
| zequence | ttoine: Let's add a workitem for it. We need to start a routine for backporting (that workitem is already present) | 08:28 |
| zequence | I'll add a new blueprint for backporting | 08:30 |
| zequence | First, breakfest | 08:30 |
| smartboyhw | zequence, what's on breakfast today?;P | 08:32 |
| zequence | smartboyhw: Bread an cottage cheese (forgot my avocado at home) | 08:57 |
| smartboyhw | zequence, oh;P | 08:57 |
| zequence | ttoine: I feel the whiteboard on public relations covers just about everything. Is there something there you feel is missing? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+spec/ubuntustudio-public-relations | 09:10 |
| zequence | I think it might be good to wrap up the technical side of PR within the next couple of weeks, and start posting actively | 09:11 |
| zequence | Scott has made a good job of skething things out | 09:16 |
| ttoine | zequence, you are right, it covers almost everything | 09:16 |
| ttoine | zequence, sorry, I am a bit overloaded those days. I had my workshop sunday about recording with Ardour | 09:17 |
| ttoine | and was at the JDLL.org all the week-end | 09:17 |
| ttoine | will be better tomorrow, if I can find some time to sleep. I think I will try to make an illustrated doc on "recording music with Ubuntu Studio and Ardour" | 09:18 |
| ttoine | I meet a guy using CentOs and Planet CCRMA to make music. He did a workshop. Nobody understand anything. Too complicated... And with Ubuntu Studio, all worked out of the box. | 09:20 |
| zequence | ttoine: :) | 09:23 |
| smartboyhw | ttoine, good | 09:25 |
| zequence | ttoine: I updated this page with some info now https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PublicRelations | 09:31 |
| zequence | It's just an edited version of the whiteboard | 09:32 |
| ttoine | zequence, ok. I have to go out of office. See you later. | 09:39 |
| zequence | cherio | 09:40 |
| === smartboyhw_ is now known as smartboyhw | ||
| smartboyhw | zequence (or any other guy in the dev team) please approve https://code.launchpad.net/~smartboyhw/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio/+merge/135123 (you can't not merge it, 0.40 is up into raring-proposed already... | 11:44 |
| ttoine | hop | 12:55 |
| smartboyhw | ttoine, hop what?:P | 12:55 |
| astraljava | Beer hop, naturally. | 13:11 |
| * astraljava has this t-shirt: http://bit.ly/USOZjV | 13:13 | |
| ttoine | astraljava, nice | 13:21 |
| ttoine | smartboyhw, hop, here again | 13:21 |
| len-dt | smartboyhw, micahg (or whoever releases) does that not us. | 14:15 |
| len-dt | We have been told to leave things as UNRELEASED | 14:16 |
| smartboyhw | len-dt, er actually I released that and dholbach sponsored it so... | 14:16 |
| ttoine | I am testing the 310 nvidia beta driver. It's fast. Amazingly fast !!! | 14:16 |
| smartboyhw | ttoine, :d | 14:17 |
| ttoine | from the startup to the login screen, and then switching between apps, etc... all is fast. I never seen that with my thinkpad before | 14:18 |
| len-dt | smartboyhw, why? | 14:18 |
| zequence | Has there even been any changes made to that source? | 14:19 |
| len-dt | zequence, some minor menu mods | 14:20 |
| zequence | smartboyhw: So you see, uploading had no purpose | 14:20 |
| len-dt | Two of them, both mine. | 14:20 |
| len-dt | It seems there is now an unofficial version of settings in the wild... | 14:21 |
| zequence | len-dt: What do you mean? | 14:23 |
| len-dt | if smartboyhw has had someone release something from his part of things as if it came from here... | 14:25 |
| len-dt | released where? | 14:25 |
| * len-dt is confused as to what happened. | 14:26 | |
| len-dt | smartboyhw, anyway your merge is something we were told not to do. | 14:28 |
| zequence | I had a one on one conversation with smartboyhw about this. I'm hoping he will ask before acting on issues like this in the future | 14:29 |
| zequence | Asking is always welcome | 14:29 |
| len-dt | In that case I will say no more and leave settings as is. | 14:29 |
| ttoine | zequence, I have writen a small testimonial on your wiki page. good luck for membership | 14:39 |
| zequence | ttoine: Thanks. Yea, tomorrow is the day, so let's see how it goes :) | 14:40 |
| smartboyhw | zequence, you on the 12:00 or 22:00 membership board? | 14:41 |
| zequence | 12.00. I'm +1, so 22.00 would be a bit too late for me | 14:42 |
| zequence | Time to go home (zzz..) | 14:44 |
| smartboyhw | zequence, good I am gonna see the progress. Do they accept live testimonials?:P | 14:44 |
| ttoine | smartboyhw, it is writen that testimonials written on the wiki page are better for people who can't attend to the membership | 14:46 |
| smartboyhw | ttoine, so that's why I am going to do a "live testimonial":P | 14:47 |
| ttoine | http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/decklink/ | 14:56 |
| ttoine | linux driver for pro video hardware | 14:56 |
| ttoine | it is aimed at gstreamer acceleration. I a trying to talk with pitivi devel to see if they could handle that | 14:57 |
| ttoine | I am trying | 15:00 |
| holstein | zequence: you would think.. but then theres the "ralph" factor | 15:14 |
| zequence | holstein: First of all, I haven't recommended anyone to use an older lowlatency kernel | 15:15 |
| zequence | Second, what about ralph? | 15:15 |
| * smartboyhw wonders what is ralph | 15:15 | |
| holstein | zequence: you can... im just talking about a user such as ralph from the list | 15:15 |
| holstein | ralph might be the kind of user who would expect US to support an older kernel | 15:16 |
| holstein | and should we? | 15:16 |
| holstein | it might just work fine... i agree that if the user typically knows how to switch kernels, they probably know how to deal with the consequences | 15:17 |
| zequence | I've considered this. Since newer kernels have been a bit poor, it might have been a plus to use an older kernel, such as 2.6.39, which was the first to support threadirqs, but also very fast | 15:18 |
| zequence | It's probably not possible to do in the main repo though | 15:18 |
| zequence | And I think this is a special case, which only a few people will want | 15:18 |
| holstein | the RT kernel from 9.10 works great | 15:18 |
| zequence | Well, so does -lowlatency 2.6.37 | 15:19 |
| holstein | still, like you say few people want it.. and i argue even less need it | 15:19 |
| holstein | they see the term "realtime" thrown around, and want it... and thats fine | 15:19 |
| zequence | I haven't done enough live processing with the newer kernels to verify if they are able to give me what I need. I'm not very sure they can | 15:20 |
| holstein | i say, from a marketing perspective, we should be "the first audio distro providing excellent latency without the need for a realtime kernel" | 15:20 |
| zequence | And, if that is so, the group of people who would "need" a faster kernel, would be fairly large | 15:20 |
| zequence | holstein: But, it's not all together true, since -lowlatency is only possible thanks to the realtime patch, which now to a great extent lives in the vanilla kernel | 15:21 |
| holstein | so, whats not true? | 15:21 |
| zequence | What I'd like to say is -lowlatency is an officially supported kernel, while -rt is experimental | 15:22 |
| holstein | sure, but there is no "rt" | 15:22 |
| holstein | you can make one.. or try the ones from ppa.. but we dont have an rt one.. not even experimental | 15:22 |
| zequence | holstein: That -lowlatency is not a realtime kernel. Cause, it is, at least to the extent that it matters to the user (since as I said, the vanilla kernel nowadays includes much of the realtime patch) | 15:23 |
| zequence | It's not hard realtime | 15:23 |
| holstein | sure.. but if you want lowlatency in a default stock ubuntu.. thats what we have | 15:23 |
| zequence | But, it's realtime | 15:23 |
| holstein | and thats what we could talk about.. marketing-wise | 15:23 |
| zequence | Problem now is that neither a -rt kernel, or a -lowlatency (Debian has a -realtime kernel in their repo) is as good as they used to be | 15:24 |
| holstein | they didnt for a while though | 15:24 |
| holstein | and i still say, users typically dont need it.. they just want it, which is fine | 15:25 |
| zequence | Anyone doing live processing need it | 15:25 |
| zequence | Something as simple as playing a live synth | 15:25 |
| holstein | sure.. but who are they? most folks have internal cards.. do podcasting maybe | 15:25 |
| holstein | not a lot of folks do either effects nor synths | 15:26 |
| zequence | I don't know what makes you think that, but in my experience, people who make music quite often do live processing in one way or another | 15:26 |
| holstein | it would be nice to have something to offer them though, since 3 years ago we did | 15:26 |
| holstein | zequence: i find most users think they need it.. but really dont even have the harware to support it | 15:27 |
| zequence | We are offering it to them, with -lowlatency | 15:27 |
| holstein | zequence: sure.. but its not as good as rt from 9.10 | 15:27 |
| zequence | I'm telling you, -lowlatency is if not exactly as good, then about as good as -rt | 15:27 |
| holstein | not nearly as good for my firewire | 15:27 |
| zequence | You're talking about kernel versions | 15:27 |
| zequence | Not, -rt vs -lowlatency | 15:27 |
| zequence | The -realtime in Debian repo sux as well | 15:27 |
| holstein | im talking about what came in the repos for 9.10 vs what is in the repo in 12.10 | 15:27 |
| zequence | Why? Because of the kernel version | 15:27 |
| holstein | im talking about. i install and dont know what a kernel is/does | 15:28 |
| holstein | i can have as good performance as i had in 9.10 | 15:28 |
| zequence | Add a realtime patch to 3.2, and it will suck just as much as -lowlatency | 15:28 |
| holstein | why is that? i might not care.. i might just move on. but i likely dont need it anyways | 15:28 |
| zequence | Because, as I said before, something in the vanilla kernel made it less responsive. And both -rt and -lowlatency suffers from that | 15:29 |
| zequence | So, what would you do, if you want to have low latency on 12.04, if neither -rt or -lowlatency is good enough? | 15:29 |
| zequence | Perhaps use an older kernel? | 15:29 |
| holstein | i would like to change the idea.. marketing wise | 15:29 |
| holstein | we are not going to have an rt kenrel in the repo | 15:29 |
| holstein | and the kernel is what it is | 15:29 |
| holstein | so, we could just try and state the facts.. | 15:30 |
| zequence | If we could get some hard facts down, from testing -lowlatency vs -rt, we could clearly state how good/bad -lowlatency is. N | 15:31 |
| holstein | try and get folks to just try the software, and not really think/worry so much about getting sub 1 ms latency | 15:31 |
| holstein | zequence: i think that would be helpful | 15:31 |
| holstein | zequence: especially for some commom hardware types | 15:31 |
| holstein | zequence: you think for 12.10? 12.04? both? | 15:31 |
| zequence | I don't think most people are concerned with the 1 ms bit, just that they don't get xruns when using their OS for making music | 15:31 |
| holstein | zequence: i think we could get a nice cross section of harware represented | 15:31 |
| zequence | Someone would need to build -rt kernels, and add them to a PPA for testing purposes | 15:32 |
| zequence | If the kernel 12.04 would have been better performing (and again, not the fault of -lowlatency, but the kernel version itself), then I would have felt better about promoting it | 15:33 |
| holstein | or, just state the facts about what is default | 15:33 |
| zequence | I'm not sure those kernels are adequate for live processing | 15:33 |
| zequence | Which sux, bigtime | 15:33 |
| holstein | "im using default 12.04, stock kernel with x hardware, performance is x" | 15:33 |
| holstein | ^^ for example | 15:33 |
| holstein | maybe not a comparison so much as a statement | 15:34 |
| zequence | YEa, well. We did do those tests between -generic, and -lowlatency, if you remember. I even compared to -rt on 9.10. And at the time, the result was clear. -lowlatency kicked ass | 15:34 |
| zequence | But, the problem again, is not -lowlatency. It's the kernel version | 15:34 |
| holstein | yeah... well, hopefully its being addressed | 15:35 |
| holstein | not much we can do about it at this point.. with the lts.. | 15:35 |
| zequence | I talked with someone in the kernel team about it in UDS, and they said they had found something weird, but no one knew what it was | 15:35 |
| holstein | to "fix" it.. i mean | 15:35 |
| holstein | zequence: great.... | 15:35 |
| holstein | zequence: i wish we had a representative up there.. someone with our interests in mind... | 15:36 |
| zequence | This is why I'm not a big fan of LTS for Ubuntu Studio. 9.10 was our LTS | 15:36 |
| smartboyhw | holstein, if that so it will be zequence :P | 15:36 |
| zequence | Actually, let me try jack quickly on 13.04.. | 15:37 |
| holstein | zequence: i should be doing that too.. and can | 15:37 |
| zequence | It's not good enough | 15:39 |
| zequence | I mean, the kernel on here | 15:39 |
| zequence | Well, maybe. | 15:39 |
| holstein | i could load up the 64bit 13.04 on my main rig and test with firewire when i get my device back over here | 15:39 |
| zequence | Ok, so this is ok. I don't seem to get xruns at 64 f/p, that's about 2.7ms latency (in jack, but it's not the real latency) | 15:41 |
| zequence | That's my acceptable limit. 128 f/p works, sort of, but it's a little too much | 15:42 |
| zequence | If 32 f/p worked, that would be a great safe margin | 15:42 |
| zequence | I'd need to have the system running for a while to catch any random xruns | 15:42 |
| zequence | That's the main problem I saw with 12.04 and 12.10. | 15:42 |
| zequence | Yep, I just got one | 15:42 |
| holstein | thats how i feel about it.. acceptable | 15:42 |
| holstein | not rip-roaring like 9.10/10.04 was... | 15:43 |
| zequence | So, this is probably not good enough for me then | 15:43 |
| holstein | i have a few devices though... firewire and a few usb's | 15:43 |
| zequence | And the 3.7 kernel is no better than those on 12.04 and 12.10 | 15:43 |
| zequence | jta: Hey man | 15:44 |
| holstein | is anybody way upstream with this issue? | 15:44 |
| smartboyhw | zequence, jta holstein bye | 15:44 |
| smartboyhw | holstein, what do ya mean? | 15:44 |
| holstein | i mean, this is not ubuntustudio specific, correct? | 15:44 |
| holstein | all newer kernels suck, correct? | 15:44 |
| zequence | holstein: No. This has only to do with the vanilla kernel source | 15:45 |
| holstein | zequence: wonder if we can just go up there and sort it out? then it'll trickle in to everyone | 15:45 |
| holstein | zequence: do we know anyone up there? | 15:45 |
| zequence | holstein: I'm not sure anyone even knows why | 15:45 |
| smartboyhw | holstein, zequence the problem is that you can't get official -rt patches for 3.7... They only release for like 2.6, 3.0, 3.2, 3.4, 3.6, 3.8 and so on... | 15:46 |
| holstein | and its challenging since its not a goal up there | 15:46 |
| zequence | The linux kernel is from what I understand the largest software project in the world | 15:46 |
| zequence | So, not easy to keep track of all the changes in the code | 15:47 |
| zequence | But, I'm sure someone knows something | 15:47 |
| zequence | It's not something we can do, anyway (until one of us becomes a kernel hacker) | 15:48 |
| holstein | maybe i'll ask casually in #ardour | 15:49 |
| holstein | those guys are sharp | 15:49 |
| holstein | or, if we could get someone like jono using the software and asking (complaining) about it | 15:50 |
| zequence | There are a couple of guys who work on kernel code, and I believe one or two of them might be in there | 15:50 |
| zequence | jta: So, did you have a launchpad account | 15:51 |
| zequence | jta: We're using launchpad for most of the things we do now, so you'd really need to get into speed with that, at least so that we know your lp username | 15:52 |
| jta | zequence: not yet, I have been busy wrapping up my event season... | 15:53 |
| jta | I will float it to the top of my list so it gets done sooner zequence | 15:53 |
| jta | zequence: ok done, it's in the top section of my todo list | 15:54 |
| zequence | jta: Ah, great. It's just very convenient when doing planning | 15:54 |
| zequence | And you'll be able to see changes that we do also, and be up to speed with what's happening | 15:54 |
| jta | zequence: cool, thanks for the prompt | 15:58 |
| knome | zequence, mind if i use your first name on your wikipage? | 16:42 |
| zequence | knome: Of course not. :) | 16:42 |
| knome | zequence, great, thanks | 16:42 |
| knome | zequence, i've added a testimony for you | 16:51 |
| zequence | knome: Thanks a bunch :) | 16:53 |
| knome | np | 16:54 |
| zequence | Actually, I'm going to change my opinion about -realtime vs -lowlatency now | 17:41 |
| zequence | It's just that -lowlatency 2.6.37 was a great combination, but on later kernels, -rt is still very much ok | 17:41 |
| zequence | holstein: I just did some testing with -rt on Wheezy. It's 3.2 series. | 17:46 |
| zequence | It's quite ok, actually | 17:46 |
| zequence | I'd need to run it for longer periods, to make sure | 17:47 |
| zequence | I did have some problems with it in the past, but not sure if it was my own fault | 17:47 |
| === jta is now known as jta_afk | ||
| holstein | zequence: i was going to look to be sure but i think thats where AVlinux stopped | 18:36 |
| holstein | 3.2.x | 18:36 |
| zequence | There's no newer kernel for Debian, in fact | 18:37 |
| holstein | they build custom ones | 18:37 |
| holstein | he has a kernel guy.. and he does the rest | 18:37 |
| holstein | the performance so far is quite nice | 18:38 |
| zequence | I think their kernel is 3.0.36 | 18:38 |
| holstein | its not installed on my main machine, so i dont have a good analog to it | 18:38 |
| zequence | I'm building 2.6.38 right now, to do some tests. I was just at #lad talking about kernels, and we started doing some cyclic tests | 18:39 |
| holstein | COOL | 18:39 |
| holstein | thats what we need.. data | 18:39 |
| holstein | and a kernel dev | 18:39 |
| zequence | Well, we still can't use -rt, unless we use an older kernel for some of the releases | 18:39 |
| zequence | Since the realtime patch is not released for every kernel version | 18:40 |
| zequence | But, if -lowlatency does not improve, I might find the motivation to see about making that happen | 18:40 |
| zequence | But not sooner than 14.04 | 18:40 |
| holstein | well, a ppa would be fine, if folks want/need it | 18:40 |
| holstein | i was hoping by 14.04 we would all be using a generic kernel for everything | 18:41 |
| zequence | while -lowlatency is at best useful, -generic is not even nearly | 18:42 |
| zequence | And I don't think that situation will improve easily | 18:42 |
| zequence | Cause no one is really asking for a kernel like that | 18:42 |
| zequence | Except for some hippie musicians | 18:42 |
| holstein | yeah... its not in the main stream desktop need | 18:42 |
| holstein | servers i suppose dont need it either | 18:42 |
| zequence | Servers need the contrary | 18:43 |
| holstein | i tried the liquorix kernel | 18:43 |
| zequence | That's probably why we're not getting what we need | 18:43 |
| zequence | servers are optimized for throughput, which is something realtime sacrifices | 18:43 |
| zequence | holstein: This may answer some of it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Linux#Con_Kolivas.27_criticism_of_kernel_politics | 18:47 |
| zequence | Well, maybe not :) | 18:47 |
| zequence | But, linux on such platforms as Debian/Ubuntu are definately more used for servers than desktops | 18:48 |
| zequence | And the business is more tuned towards that | 18:48 |
| holstein | which is fine, if we could get someone like AVlinux's kernel guy to help us... get him up as a motu for a specific kernel | 18:53 |
| zequence | holstein: I think I'm more than capable of maintaing a kernel, so that's not the issue | 19:00 |
| zequence | But, coding is another thing all together | 19:00 |
| holstein | zequence: i think it would be great if it were you | 19:03 |
| zequence | I'm pretty happy with -lowlatency right now, since with very little effor, we get a pretty nice kernel that can do most people well | 19:04 |
| zequence | But, if things don't change in the future, I will probably want to see a possible addition of a -rt kernel | 19:04 |
| holstein | yup.. its a good place to be | 19:05 |
| zequence | heh, I need to start using bigger partitions for my installs | 19:12 |
| zequence | 40GB, with /home on a separate partition (mostly), I almost ran out of space just now | 19:12 |
| zequence | Ah, of course. It's the Linux Steam game | 19:14 |
| zequence | holstein: So, I booted into the 2.6.38 kernel, and did the cyclic test | 19:31 |
| zequence | holstein: There's one thing that kind of determines how well it performs | 19:32 |
| zequence | On -lowlatency 3.7 I got max:~1200, on -rt 3.2:~130, and again, the -lowlatency 2.6.38: ~473 | 19:33 |
| zequence | On -generic it would be something like ~4000 | 19:33 |
| zequence | So, 2.6.38 is so damn good, you don't even need more | 19:33 |
| zequence | But, for some reason there has been a regression since then | 19:34 |
| zequence | And the current lowlatency just doesn't match up | 19:34 |
| zequence | Well, the 2.6.38 -generic might be better too of course | 19:35 |
| zequence | Better than current -generics, that is | 19:35 |
| zequence | holstein: :(. Actually, 2.6.38 on this release was not a big success, when I had it on for a bit longer. | 19:43 |
| zequence | It's still better than the current kernel, but not by as much as I had hoped | 19:43 |
| zequence | The difference is not big enough to be important | 19:43 |
| micahg | 2.6.38 was part of natty (11.04) which is no longer supported | 19:48 |
| zequence | micahg: Yea, I'm just testing performance. I | 19:50 |
| === jta_afk is now known as jta | ||
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