[00:40] kindle fire is £99 today [00:49] wowzer [00:49] weird how the UK gets the US sales days :) [00:49] agreed [00:50] i feel it's too 'dangerous' to buy a tablet or smartphone now, too many concerns over whether it'll get abandoned sooner rather than later on the OS update fronts [00:51] it's perpetuating the disposable approach toward gadgets even more i think [00:53] well, OS updates are via amazon [00:53] you're not meant to know it's android underneath [00:54] it's just "teh kindle" [00:54] yeah, that's even worse though [00:55] i'd heard from an anandtech podcast that the purpose of the Kindle Fire's browser was to increase updates, and yet it's had none >_< [01:50] what's the environment you have to set to run commands without translation? [01:50] it's like export LANG=C or something [02:08] http://askubuntu.com/q/220774/12435 if you know, I'm going to bed :) [02:09] nn o/ [03:20] daftykins: re abandoned tablets [03:20] non-iOS tables - correct [03:22] a kindle fire for £109 sounds good (no way would I buy the ad-supported version for the sake of a tenner) but after a play with it, it feels terrible [03:22] neuro: nexus 7 [03:23] also awful [03:23] BLASPHEMY [03:23] "hey, let's screw the early adopters by bringing out a 32gig model for the same price as the 16gig, yay!" [03:23] apart from that [03:23] but, I'm happy with the 16 that I bought [03:24] i used mine hard for the first couple of weeks, ended up drifting back to my ipad [03:24] I don't feel particularly screwed, and I have plenty of free space [03:25] also, similar to the fire, i find the bezel way too large for the form factor [03:25] and the speaker placement is crap [03:25] if blackberry did one thing right on the playbook, it was the speakers [03:25] brilliant front facing stereo ones [03:26] the only good thing about the nexus is jelly bean and Google Now [03:27] way better than siri [06:32] people use Google Now's voice stuff?! [06:36] I find this one interesting. despite what a phone is nominally for, I feel like a complete idiot talking to my phone [06:37] so do I.. and in Dutch it's not as accurate as in English [07:00] morning all [07:11] \o MooDoo [07:49] MartijnVdS: thought i was the only mad one up this early lol [07:49] MooDoo: I'm one time zone to the right.. so I'm cheating [07:49] lol [08:18] Morning [08:32] morning diplo popey [08:35] morning [08:41] morning [08:44] o/ popeye [09:22] aloha === schwuk_away is now known as schwuk [09:27] Morning [09:43] Morning [10:20] http://www.speedtest.net/result/2326370093.png [10:20] nice, MartijnVdS - home or work? [10:22] home [10:22] haha, your home internet connection is twice as good as mine at work [10:22] :) [10:23] oh wow, I get 78 Mbps down and 42.50 Mbps up today, that's a lot better than last time I tested it. [10:23] I should be getting 100/100, but I think I'm hitting some overhead and/or speedtest server limits [10:24] saturating the application's ability to process data ;) [10:24] or that [10:24] it's flash after all [10:24] * dwatkins couldn't possibly comment on that [10:28] good morning everyone [10:30] hey brobostigon [10:30] how's it going? [10:31] jacobw: hi, could be better, and you? [10:40] brobostigon: i could also be better [10:40] jacobw: :( [10:40] brobostigon: lifes goes, and on, and on :) [10:42] jacobw: yep :) [10:42] brobostigon: i was pleased to read this yesterday http://lwn.net/Articles/526082/ [10:43] brobostigon: my view is that reimplementing the desktop metaphor in a better framework allows evolution [10:44] brobostigon: for example, compiz-wall-plugin is from the 'new framework' and is great to use with the desktop metaphor [10:45] jacobw: umm, i havent really thought about it. [10:58] I really like what gnome-shell has done with workspaces [10:59] i agree, [11:04] the problem with using extensions on top of gnome-shell is that they will enable a classic mode exactly like the one you get in gnome 2 and completely uncustomizable [11:05] basically it will look the same in screenshots but operate completely differently [11:09] * AlanBell has a look at gnome shell extensions [11:09] O.o at "Remove Accessibility" being the most popular extension [11:09] hah [11:10] it just removes the indicator, doesn't turn anything off, but O.o all the same [11:10] the comments on that lwn post are funny [11:11] gnome supports can only make ad hominem attacks and not answer any questions [11:11] and as usual they ignore any serious questions and make hundreds of posts under anything stupid and easy to argue with [11:12] this stuff is starting to seriously piss me off to he point i'm considering going back to windows [11:14] wait, people want to go back to windows because the gnome team have made their DE less configurable. Surely they must release that Windows is even less configurable than that! [11:15] yes but microsoft does not make unjustified claims of being open [11:15] with windows you at least know what you're getting [11:15] not too bothered about configurability personally [11:16] neither am i [11:16] i just want somethng that works without having to spend days setting it up [11:16] I would like a consistent and understandable framework [11:17] dunno if Android for the desktop or Chrome OS is going to end up being the thing that wins [11:17] android for desktop is not really workable [11:17] it barely supports mouse [11:17] chrome os might be workable if i could just figure out how to install a terminal client (not a html5 one) [11:18] it isn't there right now [11:19] but I think firefox OS and ChromeOS are probably sensible directions, Google might just throw crazy amounts of effort at android and merge it a bit with chromeOS and get a desktop out of it [11:22] i'm really finding it difficult to understand why certain people cry about how unity, cinnamon, mate etc should cooperate more with gnome, when those forks exist because gnome refused to cooperate === TheOpenSourcerer is now known as theopensourcerer [11:23] same thing is happening with systemd and udev [11:24] basically the entire problem is caused because the attitude is "you must contribute only the things we ask for" [11:27] oh look, jbicha espousing the joy of keyboard shortcuts [11:27] ali1234: and the solution to that would be to take your own fork and change it the way you see fit. Is that such a big issue? [11:27] einonm: it's not a big issue for me, however, it seems to be an issue for the gnome project who treat any such forks with contempt [11:28] ali1234: One of the beauties of FOSS forking is that what they think doesn't really matter - you can ignore them [11:28] yes, i do ignore them [11:29] i also ignore most of the stuff developed for ubuntu for the same reason [11:29] the problem then, is that when i ignore them, then suddenly i become the enemy for not "improving" these projects instead of forking them [11:32] ali1234: I can understand both sides of that really, a fork could offend. But, as I said earlier - it doesn't really matter in the long run. Evolution carries on, and the 'fittest' survive. [11:32] yeah [11:33] so what am i supposed to do in the short term when there's no usable desktop *at all* [11:34] Use the command line, obviously :o) Old faithful. [11:34] i do use the command line. i have more shell windows than anything else. every single one of these next gen desktop totally fails in this use case [11:35] Is the default permissions code 655 ? [11:35] http://lwn.net/Articles/526382/ [11:35] ^ this is a perfect llustration [11:36] two days ago i asked jbicha a rhetorical question: "do you think a patch would reverting compiz to 0.8 would be accepted for SRU?" [11:36] kvarley: depends on the umask [11:36] I ditched linux on the desktop years ago. it's had it's day. [11:36] shauno: you use FreeBSD now? [11:37] osx on anything that has a screen, linux on anything that doesn't [11:37] it's not my responsibility to clean up after regressions introduced for the sake of features i do not want, and if you ask me to do that, yes, i'm going to get annoyed [11:38] every time someone says "fix it if you don't like it" what they are saying is "we'll just make new features and you can fix the bugs in our crappy code and like it" [11:39] it's particularly annoying when "we don;t have enough resources to test" is used as an excuse for dropping features that work in favour of ones that don't [11:40] apparently you do not have the resources to test *at all* so the number of features is irrelevant, because 0/x = 0 [11:41] there is testing done, on certain hardware and on certain configurations [11:41] there isn't enough configuration diversity [11:41] there are plenty of bugs that aren't hardware specific too [11:42] and I suspect some testing is done on strange edge cases, like multimonitor testing on matching monitors [11:42] right across unity and gnome shell and kde 4 [11:43] another annoying thing is the "everyone complained when gnome 2 was new but now they love it argument" aka the "everyone hated the windows XP UI when it was new but now they want to keep it" [11:44] the early versions were just as bad and it basically took 10 years for them to get fixed [11:44] *yawns* [11:44] and now it's going to take another 10 years for gnome 3 to get usable, at which point it will be dropped for something rubbish again [11:45] how many people get paid *just* to work on gnome, and nothing else? [11:45] ali1234: I put those sort of comments down to the work of the blogosphere, everyone trying to get a headline and some ad revenue for their blog. The important thing is that you still have the choice, and the FOSS freedoms. [11:46] einonm: that's fine the trouble is when canonical is paying a community team to basically troll around the internet making these arguments on *any blog post* which is critical of unity [11:47] apparently they don't have enough resources for testing, but plenty for astroturfing [11:47] but then, denying there is a problem is probably cheaper than actually fixing it [11:48] I do like the engagement of the community team, however I sometimes wonder if the engineers collaborate less because that is someone elses job [11:49] but meh, this is all chatter [11:52] ali1234: that's a bit harsh to say canonical pay people to troll [11:52] look you're not paid and you do a great job of trolling [11:53] yet the facts speak for themselves [11:53] czajkowski: I disagree. Trolls are usually positive about _something_ ;o) [11:55] there is loads of testing done, and the testing team are quite approachable [11:55] i had to unfollow jcastro on g+ because 50% of his posts are links to criticism, with encouragement to go and troll the comments [11:57] jono and mhall do the same thing [11:58] nah, they are all mostly positive [11:58] no, they're not [12:01] Laney: you were right :) [12:01] * Laney offers czajkowski some skittles [12:01] ohhh not had them in donkeys! [12:01] I don't /actually/ have any, but now I want some :( [12:01] Laney: coming to fosdem? [12:01] Laney: smarties are nicer and kinder to ones teeth [12:01] hmm, don't know, haven't arranged owt yet [12:01] would be good though [12:02] can you get cheap eurostar? [12:02] Laney: lazy bum come on the train! [12:02] yeah bookings opened up 4 weeks ago at least [12:03] * Laney looks [14:15] That is strange. Update manager popped up but is showing as gedit in the unity bar. [15:47] Hi folks. I want to make a USB bootable Knoppix, downloaded Unetbootin on Ubuntu. [15:47] It asks for distro [Knoppix is not there] - anybody able to tell me best selection? [15:57] SuperEngineer, download the knoppix iso from their site? [15:58] http://torrent.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/torrents/KNOPPIX_V7.0.4CD-2012-08-20-EN.torrent [16:02] popey - I have had the iso on disk for a long time - I want to put it on bootable usb [16:03] SuperEngineer, unetbootin can be told to use an iso, you dont have to pick a distro from the list [16:03] just point it at the iso image [16:04] unetbootin is spawn of the devil. [16:05] startup disk creator is awesome. [16:05] though I don't know why we're calling it that any more [16:05] could change it to something like "live environment creator" [16:06] popey, thanks - will do. [16:06] or just live disk creator [16:24] SuperMatt: disk/drive [16:25] live drive creator? yeah, I like that [16:25] SOMEONE GET CANONICAL ON THE BLOWER! [16:35] Anyone heard of a word called BLOATWARE? [16:35] YES [16:35] BLOATWARE [16:35] Ubuntu stands for bloatware. [16:35] * dwatkins yawns [16:35] hahaha [16:36] it must be time for nursery school to finish [16:36] *sigh* [16:36] dwatkins: lol :) [16:36] you shouldn't express your rilement [16:36] * roll Likes chocolate cake with some bloatware. [16:37] are you a bread roll? [16:37] or a drum roll? [16:37] rolling on the floor laughing, perhaps [16:37] I am a blotwareroll [16:37] oh :( [16:37] ah, a not making any sense roll [16:37] treadmill? [16:37] Why is Ubuntu so overrated? [16:37] It seems that everyone loves it. [16:38] isn't being overrated entirely subjective as analyses go? [16:38] roll: based on your passed messages, I would not say everyone. [16:38] like saying that strawberries are overrated [16:39] oh no, some people don't like Ubuntu, call the newspapers! [16:39] I'm not seeing any facts in this discussion. [16:39] I would say that it's not overrated, it's just popular because it is the most complete Linux distro out there, with respect to usability and design [16:40] But Ubuntu has problems too [16:40] such as? [16:40] sure, it does, but the user experience is unparalled compared to other distros [16:40] software with issues, imagine that... [16:41] haha [16:41] so yea [16:41] which issues are you referring to, roll? [16:41] Ubuntu has issues, regardless whether you like it or not. It is not a puppy. [16:41] which issues are you referring to, roll? [16:42] roll: can you name any software that does not have issues? [16:42] It is slow, energy inefficient, and has too much in it. [16:43] feel free not to use it [16:43] Last time I ran Ubuntu it was faster than certain other operating systems on a given machine. It had better energy management than that OS, too. [16:43] I would say that the first point is hardware dependant, and the last is subjective [16:43] What does 'too much in it' mean? If hard disk space is an issue, there's always lubuntu or other versions. [16:43] don't feed the t(roll) [16:43] popey: but hes hungry [16:43] I think you only say that because your high spec pc can handle everything. [16:44] indeed [16:44] popey: I was not running ubuntu on a high spec pc [16:44] Not everyone is blessed with pc that can handle the pressure of Ubuntu. [16:44] I like Ubuntu. [16:44] my netbook is slow and old, so I run lubuntu. [16:44] It is slow because Ubuntu. [16:45] that makes no sense. [16:45] * SuperEngineer has discovered watching theF1 practice session is far more interesting than watching a troll blame itself for it's own failings [16:45] * dwatkins goes back to solving customer's problems [16:45] roll: I think your on about the Window manager as the issue, not the core of ubuntu [16:46] Try a different desktop like xfce/lxde etc [16:46] Windows is another story. [16:46] if Windows is slow too, that would suggest you definitely have a slow PC [16:46] Windows is for anyone who is willing to get themselves hacked and join a botnet. [16:46] Oh please.... [16:47] /ignore roll [16:47] back later folks [I can find better ways of being amused] [16:47] All OS's are ok, I use all 3 and they all have there place [16:47] & well said dwatkins [16:47] Windows lacks the defences against hackers. [16:48] I would disagree [16:48] Windows *users* lack defences against hackers [16:48] some people used windows firewall free for years and never once got a virus [16:48] Anyone with little RE knowledge and ASM can create exploits for Win. [16:50] Ubuntu has the defences but lacks the efficiency. [16:50] roll: Please stop :) [16:51] awww, but I want to know what he thinks is inefficient [16:51] because my workflow fits extremely well with unity, and I can't imagine it possibly being any faster [16:52] It's time I cycled home inefficiently, with gears. [16:52] Seems that Ubuntu is trying gard, but not hard enough. [16:52] oh, I see [16:53] you're blaming them for not having enough staff, because their budget is still limited while they can't make much money from it [16:54] Having big sponsors, doesnt necessarily mean having good production. We have seen over the years, it has gone from bloatware to Bloattware. [16:56] Well that was some entertainment for time before home, but I will bid you good night peeps :) [16:56] ttfn === schwuk is now known as schwuk_away [16:59] I believe that some of you have a false sense of atraction to Ubuntu, because of its marketing. [17:02] <`|`roll> you might need to recheck your beliefs. === schwuk_away is now known as schwuk [17:06] * popey checks his beliefs [17:07] <`|`roll> Your beliefs are nothing but a bunch of opinions based on a OS that is outdated and not in fully operational state. [17:08] well I think you have had your 15 minutes of fame now [17:08] bye o/ [17:08] <`|`roll> alanbell :) [17:10] strange person [17:12] i would like to see a kickban on sight for that person now please === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte [17:14] aaast, mrmist-, EXORCIST, roll and `|`roll. [17:18] whoopee.. it's gone. [thought I'd better disappear when it started PM'ing me] [17:20] popey: I'd love to do that, but you have to give me ops :P [17:20] fortunately he hasn't found his way into the one I am an op for [17:22] To be fair, he did have a point about the marketing being bad. Just look at the next meeting date listed in the room topic ^^^^ [17:22] einonm: how is that marketing? [17:23] I like how you conflate one out of date topic in a community channel with Ubuntu's marketing [17:23] I think Valve are currently marketing Ubuntu more than Canonical are === AlanBell changed the topic of #ubuntu-uk to: Welcome to #ubuntu-uk! http://ubuntu-uk.org | This channel is publicly archived http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Mailing List http://tinyurl.com/uukml | Support Guidelines http://tinyurl.com/uuksupport | next meeting 09/01/2012 20:00 [17:24] 2013? === AlanBell changed the topic of #ubuntu-uk to: Welcome to #ubuntu-uk! http://ubuntu-uk.org | This channel is publicly archived http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Mailing List http://tinyurl.com/uukml | Support Guidelines http://tinyurl.com/uuksupport | next meeting 09/01/2013 20:00 [17:25] how are Valve marketing it? [17:26] Chanserv gives buy-everyone-a-drink-operator status to AlanBell [17:26] :) [17:26] I wasn't being entirely serious about the marketing, but to answer AlanBell's question, have you ever tried one of those timeshare sales events? Get you in the room, and then wham! The hard sell. [17:27] yeah, we should do that kind of thing more often [17:27] so what are Valve doing to market it then? I wouldn't expect to see any of their marketing myself but are other people seeing stuff? [17:30] Just a few blogs and news sites, but that would probably be preaching to the converted. But there is this site too I've stumbled across - http://steamforlinux.com/ [17:36] i dont think thats valve doing the work [17:36] but their fans / users [17:39] when it comes to video game stuff, the users are a very internet savvy bunch, if your product is good enough you don't need to market it at all. look at minecraft [17:39] mmm, sadly inaccurate [17:40] many critical successes have been financial flops [17:40] minecraft is a rare breakaway hit [17:41] not financial flops because of marketing, compound reasons [17:42] what i'm saying is that if your product is good enough, people get the word out, you don't have to. that doesn't guaruntee anti-floppage [17:42] well marketed games usually sell well [17:42] poorly marketed ones don't [17:42] regardless of quality [17:42] i'm not talking about what sells well [17:43] * popey is testing Dear Esther in Linux [17:43] they're shipping it as a wine bottle thing [17:43] that game conned me :( i thought it was an actual game with puzzles [17:43] i hated dear esther [17:43] yeah, it's not really a game [17:43] its a nice wander around scotland [17:43] it has a "multicore rendering" option which kills my HD2000 intel thing [17:43] pretentious arthouse bull [17:43] hah [17:44] i was going to suggest to the guy that you might test it [17:44] i wont now :) [17:51] If I don't "do" online gaming is there any point in me keeping Mumble on disk? [17:51] [only used it to set sound levels for new microphone] [17:52] i use mumble sometimes just for chitter chatter [17:52] not gaming related [17:52] SuperEngineer: loads of non-gamers use mumble. The better question would be "Do I use this?" [17:52] in fact I never use mumble for gaming chat [17:52] * SuperEngineer is getting the hint here :D [17:53] hehe [17:53] I should start a blog about all the weird bitcoin trades I do, yesterday I apparently saved an arranged marriage o.O [17:54] one game I quite like is pax-britannica [17:54] directhex / gord do you know of any other "one key" games like that? [17:54] cannabalt? [17:55] oh yes, i like that too [17:55] have that on my nexus 7 [17:55] popey, sorry, "one key"? [17:55] tiny wings? [17:55] yeah, each player basically has one button [17:55] so as you hold it down something charges up (in pax) and you let go at a certain point [17:56] let go early you build a small fighter, let go later you build a bigger one [17:56] i know of single player one button games, but not multiplayer games [17:57] that looks cute [17:57] it's superb, popey [17:57] really smooth [17:57] popey, sorry, i lack much knowledge in this area. [17:58] np :) [17:58] some of the Llamasoft iOS games are one-tap, too [17:58] amazes me he's still making games [17:58] he hangs out on irc sometimes too [17:59] Yak, that is, Giles too occasionally. [17:59] they have a lovely farmhouse in deepest Wales === schwuk is now known as schwuk_away [18:01] i don't really know much about mobile games [18:01] not much choice on wp7 ;) [18:01] that rayman game was good for a bit [18:01] i never really played portable games generally, on game boy etc either [18:01] and uh, the jetpack one, you have a jetpack in it [18:01] doodle jump? [18:01] noo [18:01] jetpack.. man.. guy [18:02] ah jetpack joyride [18:05] serious sam 3 isn't gonna work on my intel 2000 is it? [18:06] relevant jetpack joyride achievement image: http://i.imgur.com/E0hwq.jpg [18:07] it might do, dialed down [18:08] hmm, starts okay [18:08] at 1080p, looks like its auto set some detail low [18:08] its a game known for having huge hoards of enemies running at you with explosions everywhere, so uh, wait till that happens and report back ;) [18:08] :) [18:11] yeah, what gord said [18:12] IMHO intel is now almost usable at low res. but 1080p? fugeddaboutit [18:14] yeah, framerate is a bit sucky [18:14] and detail is really sparse [18:24] this is fun :) [18:24] smooshing aliens with a sledgehammer [18:25] * MartijnVdS was just playing The Walking Dead (on Windows, yes) [18:52] http://blogs.unity3d.com/2012/11/22/linux-publishing-in-unity-4-0/ [18:56] I think Stephen Fry is trying 11.10: https://twitter.com/stephenfry/status/272048483723264000 [19:01] 3TB drives up on Amazon for $90, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?SID=VEJQODWfEeK7yers-pUvpQclY1_QJXI3_0_0_0&AID=10440897&PID=1225267&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-cables-_-na-_-na&Item=N82E16822148844 [19:01] probably won't last long [19:02] just bought 4 2TB disks for €89 each [19:02] MartijnVdS: ouch :P [19:02] this model's little brother [19:03] Azelphur: meh, I'll upgrade when my 4-disk NAS is full :P [19:03] MartijnVdS: I nabbed myself 2 of them (I have a US dude that will ship them to UK folks for a small fee) [19:03] //192.168.178.250/photo 5,4T 792G 4,6T 15% /mnt/photo [19:03] ^ NAS (RAID5) still has 4.6T free [19:04] MartijnVdS: http://pastebin.com/4EGzkSQq I eat space :P [19:04] Azelphur: scenester ;) [19:04] hehe [19:04] * MartijnVdS removes stuff sometimes [19:07] * dwatkins is curious what kinds of NAS device people use [19:07] Synology DS413j [19:11] I'm very tempted to get one of those, MartijnVdS. [19:12] my oh my they're expensive, though [19:18] in irssi, /layout save. :) [19:18] ooh, thanks brobostigon [19:19] :) [21:38] Evening all [21:41] evening diplo [21:46] * daubers loads debian onto the eeepc [21:49] :) [21:50] It's off to spend the rest of it's life running the reprap [22:01] Anyone recommend a cheap tablet for my kids for xmas [22:02] Cheap but ok for a 6 year old [22:07] kindle fire is £99 TODAY. [22:07] wait and it won't be [22:08] sorry, until monday it's £99 [22:08] well, £109 without banner ads on the lock screen [22:08] http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0083Q04M2/ [22:08] Hmm, thinking more the cheaper ones ( very young kids ) I want a decent ish one for me but worried with them [22:08] http://www.lightinthebox.com/c/android-tablets_4781/All-3?currency=GBP&litb_from=paid_adwords_search&gclid=COP0ucKM5rMCFaTMtAodMQoASQ [22:10] regular android sucks for small kids, due to the bottom-of-screen issue [22:10] The kids love my brothers ipad, I'd love to get them one but not sure I can afford £200 for 2 :( [22:11] read http://uxdesign.smashingmagazine.com/2012/03/12/dads-plea-developers-ipad-apps-children/ then consider that upstream android puts un-disableable controls at the bottom of the screen (home button, menu button, etc) [22:18] Cant believe he has a 2 year old on a ipad [22:18] I didnt let my kids close to that stuff till they were 4+ [22:20] Wish I had more cash really to buy them something better [22:20] so what's the budget? [22:21] Really haven't set one, wanted to see what others recommended and then work out if it's affordable, just didn't want to buy rubbish and regret it after [22:21] Just worried if I only buy one the other will complain :) [22:22] Have you played with the Fire directhex ? [22:22] not personally. but i've prodded various £80 no-name tablets [22:23] i.e. the contents of your link [22:24] One of my mates bought his 4yo a £50-60 one, resistive.. kid loves it but i think it's annoying because of the resistive, most of those though were capacitive i think [22:24] Wish someone would stock some no names around here to play with [22:24] pc world & maplin! [22:24] really.. ooh, a trip to bristol tomorrow then may be in order [22:26] two things should be assumed with a no-name: the warranty will suck, and the OS will never get updated [22:26] so as a starter, you need to assume that for the entire lifetime of the device, it will never run apps for a more recent version of android [22:26] yeah, tbh if it lasts a year or so I'd be happy [22:26] unless you somehow badger a custom ROM onto it, and the community for a random no-name tablet isn't huge [22:26] I'll be better off by then and the kids will be older [22:27] yeah i did think that, want to get myself a nexus 10 probably when they come out [22:27] Wanted to use them as a video player for the car when we do trips to plymouth etc [22:27] Saves me buying a dvd thing for it [22:28] the chip in most of these sucks, too. they basically all use the same bargain basement CPU, the Allwinner A1x [22:30]