/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/11/24/#ubuntu-uk.txt

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Chiy0Ubuntu stinks!04:24
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ldoruFUCK04:51
ldorufuck04:51
directhexsteam sale alert: Trine 2 is 75% off, and is a currently available linux beta game10:04
brobostigongood morning everyone.11:03
popeymorning11:08
brobostigonmorning popey11:09
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czajkowskimorning12:02
brobostigonafternoonings czajkowski12:03
d0mwow, where did the morning go?12:05
d0malso, hello12:05
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jacobwafternoonings14:10
penguin42hey14:11
penguin42anyone using a thinkpad w520 on Quantal - and have the external VGA working?14:44
DJonespopey: One for you and any other rasberry pi owners https://twitter.com/danfrisk - Do you have a Raspberry Pi? We're going to make a special Minecraft version (based on PE) for it! -  Minecraft Pi edition will be free, it's a slightly cut down version of PE. With added api.14:47
popeyblimey14:48
DJonesHow well do you think it will run on the pi14:50
popeywell it runs on phones14:51
popeyand the pi is about the same spec as an iphone 3g14:51
DJonesShould be fairly decent then14:52
DJonesMust admit, on a phone/tablet, its not outstanding due to the controls & not having a mouse14:52
DJonesBut it is is playable and interesting14:53
czajkowskixnox: ping15:36
czajkowskixnox: on shutting down on my machine it now takes about 20 seconds15:36
czajkowskiboot up takes 415:36
czajkowskiany ideas15:36
andylockranhey guys, any recommendations for an Ubuntu laptop, hdmi :)15:50
SuperEngineerczajkowski: magnetic hdd or SSD? if ssd could be write lag [only a guess], if normal hdd...hmmm15:52
DJonesandylockran: I've got a HP G72, works great, probably 18 months old15:52
DJonesczajkowski: 4 second boot up? Thats not something to complain about15:53
czajkowskiSSD15:54
czajkowskiDJones: oh no that I love15:55
czajkowskiit's the shutting down I've issues with15:55
DJones20 seconds seems pretty quick15:55
SuperEngineerI'd be happy with those figures sometimes....15:56
SuperEngineerbut it *may well be* write lag on sut down15:56
SuperEngineer*shut15:56
SuperEngineerczajkowski: [btw - thought your blog post re women [& comments aimed at] was rather well written]15:58
SuperEngineer..good point - well made15:58
czajkowskiThank you16:00
popeyandylockran, thinkpad, standard answer16:04
directhexgood tool to record a full-screen desktop?16:04
popeykazam16:05
penguin42popey: Be careful, some of the thinkpads are a bit of a fight, the W520 I have on my lap is an nvidia/intel hybrid, it's a real fight to get to work on Quantal16:08
popeyi would naturally avoid all hybrids16:09
penguin42popey: You can switch it out of hybrid, but the external VGA is only wired to the Nvidia hardware16:10
popeysounds rubbish :)16:10
penguin42popey: Nod :-(   I'm getting closer to having it work with Nouveau, it's looking like it requires noapic, and even then it's getting some startup hangs if I use kubuntu GL16:11
penguin42popey: Not my choice of hardware16:12
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mungojerry_lol @ my 2 yr old...peeks at my laptop, and starts pressing the icons on the unity launcher on the screen16:22
Azelphurwhat is this inferior non-touch screen device :P16:23
mungojerry_he is rather used to my android tablet16:24
Azelphurhehe16:24
AlanBellfunniest thing is when they try and pinch zoom pictures in books16:24
mungojerry_he's decided icons should be touchable, i think he's ready to the future of computing16:27
AlanBellandylockran: we have one of these on the way http://www.novatech.co.uk/laptop/range/novatechnfinityn1402.html16:27
mungojerry_maybe mice won't be around anyway when he's a teenager16:27
AzelphurI don't think mice are going to go away on things like laptops and desktops just yet, touch isn't a viable alternative16:28
Azelphurwell, mice and keyboards16:28
Azelphur(step 1, hold your arm out in front of your face as if to touch the screen, step 2, keep it there for a typical 7 hour work day.)16:29
zleapfor long documents you probably need a keyboard, anyone up for typing a 100k+ word uni thesis on a touch screen16:29
mungojerry_yes, there are different work modes requiring different input methid16:29
mungojerry_looking at the students in their work space, computers are for youtubing and facebooking16:31
penguin42Azelphur: Some people get on well with touchpads16:33
Azelphurtouchpads are ok, touch screens arn't :p16:33
penguin42nod16:33
mungojerry_well they are great for armchair surfing or on the train16:34
Azelphuryea they are great on consumption devices16:34
mungojerry_mx player on android tablet has certain areas of the screen to reduce vol/brightness etc, very nice to watch stuff on the train16:34
mungojerry_such a grim day outside. had to stand in the rain for 30 mins while doggy got some exercise16:36
mungojerry_guys, if i type IMG_001.jpg in unity launcher, and get 3 matches, how do i know the path to each match?16:39
directhexpopey, i like how 4:30 of that video are converting a unity3 project to unity4. actual linux port time is 50 seconds ;)16:41
popeyyeah :)16:42
popeyi was going to comment on that myself16:42
directhexfrustrating that I can't strip the audio out though :(16:43
popeykazam worked then directhex ?16:43
directhexyeah, kazam worked easy. capturing on windows is another matter though16:44
xnoxczajkowski: is that a regression because of installing a package I proposed to unbreak your phone? Or just a general regression?17:01
xnoxfor boot up - you can install package bootchart and it will give logs & pretty graphs of why the boot takes as long as it does.17:01
xnoxczajkowski: not sure if there is an easy way to diagnose shut-down though you can compare: shutdown vs logout-first & shutdown. And try to pin-point "what's holding up the shutdown"17:05
czajkowskixnox: genereal17:05
czajkowskinods17:05
czajkowskiok17:05
xnoxczajkowski: there are talks that there are some desktopy applications that hold open files & just plain refuse to quit, such that we wait for timeout & then kill them, resulting in shutdown delays.17:06
popeyczajkowski,  be aware of bug 1081066 for bootchart :)17:31
lubotu3Launchpad bug 1081066 in bootchart (Ubuntu) "Bootchart doesn't logrotate, so eventually fills /var/log" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/108106617:32
penguin42xnox: Yeh, an unbootchart would be great - not sure where it would put it's data; but slow shutdown really annoys me, becuase I'm normally waiting to go to bed, or get out of the house etc17:34
daftykinsdo you people tend to hit shutdown whilst programs are all open then?17:34
penguin42daftykins: Yes; kde has a very nice ctrl-alt-shift-pagedown that does a shutdown17:35
penguin42daftykins: But it doesn't seem to be the apps that slow things down though17:35
daftykinsnah i'm just more interested in styles of use17:35
daftykinsas i always close programs off before a shutdown, sort of winding down toward finishing things17:35
penguin42daftykins: I close things (when I remember!) that I think are too dumb to clean themselves up17:36
popeydepends, i usually close most apps before closing down17:43
popeybut sometimes there's a text editor left open on another desktop17:43
MartijnVdShi from Birmingham :-)17:59
penguin42MartijnVdS: Eek what are you doing there17:59
daftykinspoor guy18:00
bigcalm_laptopEllo :)19:34
AlanBellhi bigcalm_laptop19:35
popeyevening19:35
* penguin42 doesn't think he would want an excited or scared laptop19:36
popeyballs19:47
popeybug 859600 is breaking some wine apps19:47
lubotu3Launchpad bug 859600 in gnome-keyring (Ubuntu Precise) "Please convert gnome-keyring to multiarch" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/85960019:47
popeygets on my tits when people claim there's no issues at all running a 64-bit distro these days. that's just factually inaccurate19:48
DJonesDepends on a person usage, I'm using 64 bit and can say that I haven't had any issues, but I'm not using anything exotic/none-standard19:53
popeyexactly19:54
popeythat's exactly the issue. everyone talks from their own perspective.19:55
popeywithout considering that there might be use cases where it actually fails.19:55
popey"well it works for me, therefore it must work for everyone" is the broken logic19:55
shaunohow about "it's 2012, so I feel safe making an assumption that desktop linux has at least caught up with 2004"?19:56
popeyits not a problem of desktop linux, its a problem of people asserting their experience is everyones experience in desktop linux19:57
DJonespopey: Agreed, although its difficult not to use the same logic when all you're using is a default desktop & packages from the repo's19:57
popeyoh sure, but who does that? :)19:57
shaunoit just seems like the wrong direction to get annoyed at people assuming it works.  it should be a very reasonable assumption19:57
popeyassumption is the failure19:57
popeyhey ho19:58
daftykinsrunning a 64-bit OS in the Windows world is still a bit of a laugh though, when you look at how many apps are *actually* still 32-bit atop it20:15
daftykinsin fact, haha20:15
daftykinslemme put up a pic20:16
daftykinshttp://i.imgur.com/66f7R.gif20:17
daftykinsthat sums it up XD20:17
bigcalm_laptopAnybody here used a touch screen with a RPi?20:23
popeyi dont care that there are 32-bit apps running on my 64-bit OS, so long as they work20:29
daftykinsoh so they don't in Ubuntu? that's quite unimpressive20:34
daftykinsin fact pretty shocking20:34
penguin42popey: Especially given they're often smaller and faster; and now actually work these days on Ubuntu (finally)20:34
popeydaftykins, what don't work?20:35
popeydaftykins, i have a bunch of 32-bit apps which run seamlessly on my 64-bit ubuntu system20:35
popeybut some libraries haven't been converted to multiarch which means you can't install 64 and 32-bit versions of them side by side20:35
popeyits one reason why 32-bit steam on 64-bit ubuntu doesn't have an indicator in the panel20:35
penguin42it's not bad these days on Quantal20:35
popeyyeah, its not many20:36
popeybut it's some crucial ones20:36
penguin42nod20:36
popeyi dont mind that they dont work, free software and all that20:36
popeyi mind more that people claim everything is peachy :)20:36
daftykinssounds very messy20:37
penguin42yeh, it's certainly a heck of a lot better than a year ago20:37
penguin42a year ago it just wasn't doable, where as RHEL/Fedora have been pretty much working for years on it - so it's definitely going in the right direction20:37
popeyyeah, i quite like the implementation of it20:37
popeyapt-get install foo gets me the 64-bit version, apt-get install foo:i386 gets me the 32-bit one20:38
penguin42popey: Not sure yet, it's a little overkill for the PC case (but nice for ARM) and I'm not convinced things like Gnome plugins work yet20:38
daftykinsi didn't realise there was a steam beta20:38
popeyi was playing Serious Sam 3 BFE today on Linux :)20:39
daftykinsah-har20:39
popeymy poor intel only machine barely kept up20:40
daftykinsdecent performance? assuming you have a decent graphics card20:40
daftykinsah XD20:40
popeyyeah, nvidia is fine20:40
daftykinsi see the beta site is referring to nvidia having done some work :O20:40
popeyyeah, there's been collaboration between canonical, valve and nvidia20:40
popeyone of the guys from valve came along to UDS last month20:41
daftykinsooh20:41
popeyalso a bunch of people from Unity3D20:41
daftykinsif you build it, they will come - indeed20:41
popeydirecthex did a video earlier showing how easy it can be to port games over from Windows to Linux if written in Unity3D20:41
popeystill lots of work to do of course20:42
daftykinsquantal ISO is 753MB, cor that must be getting to overburn territory20:42
popeyit's intentionally more than a CD size now20:42
daftykinsoh?20:42
popeyyeah20:42
daftykinssort of closing off attempts that might be made to put it on older hardware?20:42
daftykinsi completely forgot about the 12.10 release20:43
penguin42daftykins: I think they just gave up trying to squeeze it on20:43
popeyDVDs and USB sticks work fine20:43
popeyit was a deliberate choice20:43
popeythere's still a limit20:43
penguin42daftykins: It's ok on older hardware via USB sticks, and frankly anything that won't boot off USB sticks these days is just too much of a fight with Ubuntu, I've done it on an older AMD box but it was one heck of a fight20:43
daftykinsyeah i know all this20:44
daftykinsi just find it a bit of a curious decision20:44
popeyless stress for us trying to constantly crowbar stuff in20:44
penguin42daftykins: Why? Why spend the effort squeezing when very few people are stuck using CD to install20:44
penguin42daftykins: You can still install using something like Ubuntu server and add the other packages20:44
daftykinsbecause it's a cheaper medium20:45
penguin42by how many c these days?20:45
penguin42daftykins: In the end a reusable USB stick is cheaper20:45
daftykinswell, i think you're considering a particular user type there20:45
penguin42daftykins: Most people have come to the conclusion that burning CD/DVDs is just too much of a pain20:46
penguin42daftykins: I've had to do a lot of weird/older machines and even I try and avoid CDs20:46
popeyi cant recall the last time I burned a CD20:46
daftykinsi'm afraid i still find everything you're saying obvious but it doesn't make it any less of a surprise :P20:47
penguin42popey: I tried recently, I had a machine that had a bios bug that meant it didn't like USB thumb drive booting; fortunately someone told me it worked if I used a PS/2 keyboard on it - really got me rialled20:47
daftykinsi'm certainly rocking a collection of flash drives too, but nevermind20:47
penguin42daftykins: These days you need to be a bit of an expert to get Ubuntu on more than say 7 year old machines, if you are then you can do it with a ubuntu-server disc, anything newer the  larger image/use of a thumb drive isn't an issue; I agree it's a shame it just doesn't work on older stuff20:48
daftykinscan you stop patronising now =/20:48
penguin42shrug - I wasn't trying to!20:49
popeythen again if you can get ubuntu on a 7 year old machine you probably wouldn't want to run it20:49
popeyprobably better using lubuntu or xubuntu I guess20:49
penguin42but fortunately I've now bought my dad a machine that is new; shame he tripped a kernel bug on it though :-(20:49
popeyis that the lenovo?20:50
penguin42popey: No20:50
penguin42popey: My dad's is a low end Sandybridge desktop, it triggers a kernel bug only when connected via a kvm; other people have triggered the same bug under different cases20:50
DJonesThere's always the minimal iso to burn to a cd as another option20:50
penguin42popey: Bug 107069020:51
lubotu3Launchpad bug 1070690 in linux (Ubuntu Raring) "BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at (null); RIP: 0010:[<ffffffff8167f93a>] [<ffffffff8167f93a>] __mutex_lock_slowpath+0xaa/0x150" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/107069020:51
penguin42popey: I'm too mean to buy my dad a Lenovo20:51
penguin42popey: Unfortunately 3 out of 4 machines I've installed Quantal on have triggered series graphics (either kernel or X) bugs - all very different hardware20:52
popeyheh20:53
popeyis that intel hd3000 or 2000?20:53
popeyi didnt realise the mobo in my desktop is "only" hd2000 (it's a cheapo zoostorm i7)20:54
popeywhich is one reason why some games are really crappy on it20:54
penguin42popey: Not sure off hand; my dads it's a G645 CPU, bottom end dual core with integrated gpu20:54
popeyahh, dual-core.. even worse :S20:55
penguin42popey: This is the more cheapo zoostorm - the 199 one20:55
daftykinserr the GPU is on-die of the CPU in i-series20:55
popeyhehe20:55
popeyyes, no need to patronise daftykins :p20:55
popeyits still called a GPU20:55
daftykinsyes but, hang on20:55
daftykins< popey> i didnt realise the mobo in my desktop is "only" hd2000 (it's a20:55
daftykins               cheapo zoostorm i7)20:55
daftykins^mobo?20:55
daftykinsno relevance then surely20:55
popeymeh20:55
popeys/mobo/cpu/20:56
popeys/mobo/black box under the desk/20:56
daftykinsi see20:57
penguin42popey: I just seem to have had a !?$* week for bugs :-(20:57
popeyyeah, I think we all have those now and then20:57
popeyi sometimes have a day where I think "I'll file that bug I have been meaning to" and end up with a crash in the bug reporter, then discover some other bug when reproducing it20:58
popeyand end up filing 3 in a row :)20:58
daftykinsouch20:58
penguin42popey: Yeh so I've currently got gdb attached to X to try and figure out why xrestop crashes it (which I see you also reported), earlier I fixed a gdb bug that I ran into when previously trying to use gdb instead of xrestop....21:00
popeyoh, thanks for looking at that21:00
penguin42popey: Of course I was using xrestop to find out why X was using 100% and running like a dog - so a triple whammy, but that turned out not necessarily due to an ubuntu bug21:01
penguin42and it's a pain since it won't fail in a vm so I have to do it on my main machine and that means I can't listen to music - and that makes me a sad penguin21:02
popey:(21:03
popeyis the picture on your website accurate? your array of machines around you21:03
penguin42popey: Yes, a little out of date, but approximately correct - just a bit more dust and an LCD on my main machine21:04
penguin42oh, and the beard seems to have got longer, and the hair sparser21:04
popeyheh21:06
daftykins^_^21:07
penguin42popey: Problem with digging in the X server is you have to know quite about it's internal data structures (which I don't), so it's a bit of voodoo programming21:15
penguin42(and I have to try and remember whether it's apt-get builddep, builddeps, build-dep or build-deps    which I ALWAYS forget)21:17
popeynow you know what you've done there... I _know_ it's build-dep but now you've said that I'm gonna mistype it every time!21:21
penguin42haha sorry about that21:22
xnoxis it now apt-get build<TAB>21:22
xnox?21:22
popeyooooh!21:24
popeywhy did I not know that!21:24
penguin42xnox Good point21:25
popeyin other news, we're still evil https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/ZZWLtq6tYdn21:25
penguin42popey: Could you successfully argue against him? (OK, so he's Mr. Systemd - but he's right it would be easier if it wasn't quite so segmented - I don't actually know which is better)21:27
popeyhave you read the comments?21:27
popeysurprising number of pro-ubuntu ones21:28
popeyI thought it would be the usual dogpile21:28
popeybut no, I couldn't. I don't know enough about upstart/systemd21:28
popeyi leave that to people like21:28
popeyer.. slangasek :)21:29
penguin42popey: Me neither, but it's true that having two of them doesn't necessarily help21:29
popey"systemd has not yet been included in any released enterprise distribution"21:30
popeythats a somewhat compelling argument isnt it?21:30
popeymeh, could say the same about GNOME Shell and Unity21:30
popeyOh, wait!21:30
popey;)21:30
xnoxI think lennart totally missed the point in this conversation.21:31
xnoxupstart already had support for running user jobs for a long time.21:31
penguin42popey: ok, I hadn't realised upstart had won in RHEL6, I guess that pretty much settles it then21:31
xnoxnow we want to make sure that some of the /etc/xdg/autostart/*.desktop files are supervised by upstart.21:31
xnoxpenguin42: but lennart keeps on saying that it's systemd in rhel7, but that has not been released yet.21:32
penguin42xnox: He may be in a better position to know; it's an interesting about turn if RHEL have got sysv->upstart->systemd21:32
* penguin42 admits to preferring sysvinit, at least I knew how to debug startup21:33
xnoxpenguin42: they only run upstart in sysv compat mode, e.g. no upstart jobs, just supervise existing init scripts.21:33
penguin42hmm, I see why it's segging - what I don't know is why it's got that value   counts[(type & TypeMask) - 1]++;       and type=021:49
directhexalert: SPAZ is 75% off until 10am tomorrow, and is one of the games available on the Steam for Linux beta22:52
daubersdirecthex: From now on I shall think of you more as A floating hologram of Patrick Moores head23:01
directhexi lack a monocle!23:01
directhexalso, i can totally ruin gamesmaster forever for you: you can see patrick moore is actually just wearing a black turtleneck in the early seasons, it's not a floating hed at all23:02
daubersdirecthex: You can see the same with Holly in Red Dwarf23:02
directhex;o23:02
daubers(original early Holly anyway)23:02
directhexRUINED!23:02
daubershttp://cdn100.iofferphoto.com/img/item/181/621/911/gamesmaster-games-master-series-1-to-7-1edd.png <- What I think directhex really looks like23:02
directhexi just said i lacked a monocle. KEEP UP AT THE BACK!23:03
daubersWell, christmas is coming.....23:04
daftykinsi'm kind of impressed they managed to get Patrick Moore to do that job23:19
daftykinsdoesn't seem quite befitting to his character...23:19

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