=== user is now known as lucidluna [04:24] Ubuntu stinks! === Chiy0 is now known as Grillyda === Grillyda is now known as ldoru [04:51] FUCK [04:51] fuck [10:04] steam sale alert: Trine 2 is 75% off, and is a currently available linux beta game [11:03] good morning everyone. [11:08] morning [11:09] morning popey === G4MBY2 is now known as r99 [12:02] morning [12:03] afternoonings czajkowski [12:05] wow, where did the morning go? [12:05] also, hello === Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte [14:10] afternoonings [14:11] hey [14:44] anyone using a thinkpad w520 on Quantal - and have the external VGA working? [14:47] popey: One for you and any other rasberry pi owners https://twitter.com/danfrisk - Do you have a Raspberry Pi? We're going to make a special Minecraft version (based on PE) for it! - Minecraft Pi edition will be free, it's a slightly cut down version of PE. With added api. [14:48] blimey [14:50] How well do you think it will run on the pi [14:51] well it runs on phones [14:51] and the pi is about the same spec as an iphone 3g [14:52] Should be fairly decent then [14:52] Must admit, on a phone/tablet, its not outstanding due to the controls & not having a mouse [14:53] But it is is playable and interesting [15:36] xnox: ping [15:36] xnox: on shutting down on my machine it now takes about 20 seconds [15:36] boot up takes 4 [15:36] any ideas [15:50] hey guys, any recommendations for an Ubuntu laptop, hdmi :) [15:52] czajkowski: magnetic hdd or SSD? if ssd could be write lag [only a guess], if normal hdd...hmmm [15:52] andylockran: I've got a HP G72, works great, probably 18 months old [15:53] czajkowski: 4 second boot up? Thats not something to complain about [15:54] SSD [15:55] DJones: oh no that I love [15:55] it's the shutting down I've issues with [15:55] 20 seconds seems pretty quick [15:56] I'd be happy with those figures sometimes.... [15:56] but it *may well be* write lag on sut down [15:56] *shut [15:58] czajkowski: [btw - thought your blog post re women [& comments aimed at] was rather well written] [15:58] ..good point - well made [16:00] Thank you [16:04] andylockran, thinkpad, standard answer [16:04] good tool to record a full-screen desktop? [16:05] kazam [16:08] popey: Be careful, some of the thinkpads are a bit of a fight, the W520 I have on my lap is an nvidia/intel hybrid, it's a real fight to get to work on Quantal [16:09] i would naturally avoid all hybrids [16:10] popey: You can switch it out of hybrid, but the external VGA is only wired to the Nvidia hardware [16:10] sounds rubbish :) [16:11] popey: Nod :-( I'm getting closer to having it work with Nouveau, it's looking like it requires noapic, and even then it's getting some startup hangs if I use kubuntu GL [16:12] popey: Not my choice of hardware === oimon is now known as Guest77645 === FLHerne_ is now known as FLHerne [16:22] lol @ my 2 yr old...peeks at my laptop, and starts pressing the icons on the unity launcher on the screen [16:23] what is this inferior non-touch screen device :P [16:24] he is rather used to my android tablet [16:24] hehe [16:24] funniest thing is when they try and pinch zoom pictures in books [16:27] he's decided icons should be touchable, i think he's ready to the future of computing [16:27] andylockran: we have one of these on the way http://www.novatech.co.uk/laptop/range/novatechnfinityn1402.html [16:27] maybe mice won't be around anyway when he's a teenager [16:28] I don't think mice are going to go away on things like laptops and desktops just yet, touch isn't a viable alternative [16:28] well, mice and keyboards [16:29] (step 1, hold your arm out in front of your face as if to touch the screen, step 2, keep it there for a typical 7 hour work day.) [16:29] for long documents you probably need a keyboard, anyone up for typing a 100k+ word uni thesis on a touch screen [16:29] yes, there are different work modes requiring different input methid [16:31] looking at the students in their work space, computers are for youtubing and facebooking [16:33] Azelphur: Some people get on well with touchpads [16:33] touchpads are ok, touch screens arn't :p [16:33] nod [16:34] well they are great for armchair surfing or on the train [16:34] yea they are great on consumption devices [16:34] mx player on android tablet has certain areas of the screen to reduce vol/brightness etc, very nice to watch stuff on the train [16:36] such a grim day outside. had to stand in the rain for 30 mins while doggy got some exercise [16:39] guys, if i type IMG_001.jpg in unity launcher, and get 3 matches, how do i know the path to each match? [16:41] popey, i like how 4:30 of that video are converting a unity3 project to unity4. actual linux port time is 50 seconds ;) [16:42] yeah :) [16:42] i was going to comment on that myself [16:43] frustrating that I can't strip the audio out though :( [16:43] kazam worked then directhex ? [16:44] yeah, kazam worked easy. capturing on windows is another matter though [17:01] czajkowski: is that a regression because of installing a package I proposed to unbreak your phone? Or just a general regression? [17:01] for boot up - you can install package bootchart and it will give logs & pretty graphs of why the boot takes as long as it does. [17:05] czajkowski: not sure if there is an easy way to diagnose shut-down though you can compare: shutdown vs logout-first & shutdown. And try to pin-point "what's holding up the shutdown" [17:05] xnox: genereal [17:05] nods [17:05] ok [17:06] czajkowski: there are talks that there are some desktopy applications that hold open files & just plain refuse to quit, such that we wait for timeout & then kill them, resulting in shutdown delays. [17:31] czajkowski, be aware of bug 1081066 for bootchart :) [17:32] Launchpad bug 1081066 in bootchart (Ubuntu) "Bootchart doesn't logrotate, so eventually fills /var/log" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1081066 [17:34] xnox: Yeh, an unbootchart would be great - not sure where it would put it's data; but slow shutdown really annoys me, becuase I'm normally waiting to go to bed, or get out of the house etc [17:34] do you people tend to hit shutdown whilst programs are all open then? [17:35] daftykins: Yes; kde has a very nice ctrl-alt-shift-pagedown that does a shutdown [17:35] daftykins: But it doesn't seem to be the apps that slow things down though [17:35] nah i'm just more interested in styles of use [17:35] as i always close programs off before a shutdown, sort of winding down toward finishing things [17:36] daftykins: I close things (when I remember!) that I think are too dumb to clean themselves up [17:43] depends, i usually close most apps before closing down [17:43] but sometimes there's a text editor left open on another desktop [17:59] hi from Birmingham :-) [17:59] MartijnVdS: Eek what are you doing there [18:00] poor guy [19:34] Ello :) [19:35] hi bigcalm_laptop [19:35] evening [19:36] * penguin42 doesn't think he would want an excited or scared laptop [19:47] balls [19:47] bug 859600 is breaking some wine apps [19:47] Launchpad bug 859600 in gnome-keyring (Ubuntu Precise) "Please convert gnome-keyring to multiarch" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/859600 [19:48] gets on my tits when people claim there's no issues at all running a 64-bit distro these days. that's just factually inaccurate [19:53] Depends on a person usage, I'm using 64 bit and can say that I haven't had any issues, but I'm not using anything exotic/none-standard [19:54] exactly [19:55] that's exactly the issue. everyone talks from their own perspective. [19:55] without considering that there might be use cases where it actually fails. [19:55] "well it works for me, therefore it must work for everyone" is the broken logic [19:56] how about "it's 2012, so I feel safe making an assumption that desktop linux has at least caught up with 2004"? [19:57] its not a problem of desktop linux, its a problem of people asserting their experience is everyones experience in desktop linux [19:57] popey: Agreed, although its difficult not to use the same logic when all you're using is a default desktop & packages from the repo's [19:57] oh sure, but who does that? :) [19:57] it just seems like the wrong direction to get annoyed at people assuming it works. it should be a very reasonable assumption [19:57] assumption is the failure [19:58] hey ho [20:15] running a 64-bit OS in the Windows world is still a bit of a laugh though, when you look at how many apps are *actually* still 32-bit atop it [20:15] in fact, haha [20:16] lemme put up a pic [20:17] http://i.imgur.com/66f7R.gif [20:17] that sums it up XD [20:23] Anybody here used a touch screen with a RPi? [20:29] i dont care that there are 32-bit apps running on my 64-bit OS, so long as they work [20:34] oh so they don't in Ubuntu? that's quite unimpressive [20:34] in fact pretty shocking [20:34] popey: Especially given they're often smaller and faster; and now actually work these days on Ubuntu (finally) [20:35] daftykins, what don't work? [20:35] daftykins, i have a bunch of 32-bit apps which run seamlessly on my 64-bit ubuntu system [20:35] but some libraries haven't been converted to multiarch which means you can't install 64 and 32-bit versions of them side by side [20:35] its one reason why 32-bit steam on 64-bit ubuntu doesn't have an indicator in the panel [20:35] it's not bad these days on Quantal [20:36] yeah, its not many [20:36] but it's some crucial ones [20:36] nod [20:36] i dont mind that they dont work, free software and all that [20:36] i mind more that people claim everything is peachy :) [20:37] sounds very messy [20:37] yeh, it's certainly a heck of a lot better than a year ago [20:37] a year ago it just wasn't doable, where as RHEL/Fedora have been pretty much working for years on it - so it's definitely going in the right direction [20:37] yeah, i quite like the implementation of it [20:38] apt-get install foo gets me the 64-bit version, apt-get install foo:i386 gets me the 32-bit one [20:38] popey: Not sure yet, it's a little overkill for the PC case (but nice for ARM) and I'm not convinced things like Gnome plugins work yet [20:38] i didn't realise there was a steam beta [20:39] i was playing Serious Sam 3 BFE today on Linux :) [20:39] ah-har [20:40] my poor intel only machine barely kept up [20:40] decent performance? assuming you have a decent graphics card [20:40] ah XD [20:40] yeah, nvidia is fine [20:40] i see the beta site is referring to nvidia having done some work :O [20:40] yeah, there's been collaboration between canonical, valve and nvidia [20:41] one of the guys from valve came along to UDS last month [20:41] ooh [20:41] also a bunch of people from Unity3D [20:41] if you build it, they will come - indeed [20:41] directhex did a video earlier showing how easy it can be to port games over from Windows to Linux if written in Unity3D [20:42] still lots of work to do of course [20:42] quantal ISO is 753MB, cor that must be getting to overburn territory [20:42] it's intentionally more than a CD size now [20:42] oh? [20:42] yeah [20:42] sort of closing off attempts that might be made to put it on older hardware? [20:43] i completely forgot about the 12.10 release [20:43] daftykins: I think they just gave up trying to squeeze it on [20:43] DVDs and USB sticks work fine [20:43] it was a deliberate choice [20:43] there's still a limit [20:43] daftykins: It's ok on older hardware via USB sticks, and frankly anything that won't boot off USB sticks these days is just too much of a fight with Ubuntu, I've done it on an older AMD box but it was one heck of a fight [20:44] yeah i know all this [20:44] i just find it a bit of a curious decision [20:44] less stress for us trying to constantly crowbar stuff in [20:44] daftykins: Why? Why spend the effort squeezing when very few people are stuck using CD to install [20:44] daftykins: You can still install using something like Ubuntu server and add the other packages [20:45] because it's a cheaper medium [20:45] by how many c these days? [20:45] daftykins: In the end a reusable USB stick is cheaper [20:45] well, i think you're considering a particular user type there [20:46] daftykins: Most people have come to the conclusion that burning CD/DVDs is just too much of a pain [20:46] daftykins: I've had to do a lot of weird/older machines and even I try and avoid CDs [20:46] i cant recall the last time I burned a CD [20:47] i'm afraid i still find everything you're saying obvious but it doesn't make it any less of a surprise :P [20:47] popey: I tried recently, I had a machine that had a bios bug that meant it didn't like USB thumb drive booting; fortunately someone told me it worked if I used a PS/2 keyboard on it - really got me rialled [20:47] i'm certainly rocking a collection of flash drives too, but nevermind [20:48] daftykins: These days you need to be a bit of an expert to get Ubuntu on more than say 7 year old machines, if you are then you can do it with a ubuntu-server disc, anything newer the larger image/use of a thumb drive isn't an issue; I agree it's a shame it just doesn't work on older stuff [20:48] can you stop patronising now =/ [20:49] shrug - I wasn't trying to! [20:49] then again if you can get ubuntu on a 7 year old machine you probably wouldn't want to run it [20:49] probably better using lubuntu or xubuntu I guess [20:49] but fortunately I've now bought my dad a machine that is new; shame he tripped a kernel bug on it though :-( [20:50] is that the lenovo? [20:50] popey: No [20:50] popey: My dad's is a low end Sandybridge desktop, it triggers a kernel bug only when connected via a kvm; other people have triggered the same bug under different cases [20:50] There's always the minimal iso to burn to a cd as another option [20:51] popey: Bug 1070690 [20:51] Launchpad bug 1070690 in linux (Ubuntu Raring) "BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at (null); RIP: 0010:[] [] __mutex_lock_slowpath+0xaa/0x150" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1070690 [20:51] popey: I'm too mean to buy my dad a Lenovo [20:52] popey: Unfortunately 3 out of 4 machines I've installed Quantal on have triggered series graphics (either kernel or X) bugs - all very different hardware [20:53] heh [20:53] is that intel hd3000 or 2000? [20:54] i didnt realise the mobo in my desktop is "only" hd2000 (it's a cheapo zoostorm i7) [20:54] which is one reason why some games are really crappy on it [20:54] popey: Not sure off hand; my dads it's a G645 CPU, bottom end dual core with integrated gpu [20:55] ahh, dual-core.. even worse :S [20:55] popey: This is the more cheapo zoostorm - the 199 one [20:55] err the GPU is on-die of the CPU in i-series [20:55] hehe [20:55] yes, no need to patronise daftykins :p [20:55] its still called a GPU [20:55] yes but, hang on [20:55] < popey> i didnt realise the mobo in my desktop is "only" hd2000 (it's a [20:55] cheapo zoostorm i7) [20:55] ^mobo? [20:55] no relevance then surely [20:55] meh [20:56] s/mobo/cpu/ [20:56] s/mobo/black box under the desk/ [20:57] i see [20:57] popey: I just seem to have had a !?$* week for bugs :-( [20:57] yeah, I think we all have those now and then [20:58] i sometimes have a day where I think "I'll file that bug I have been meaning to" and end up with a crash in the bug reporter, then discover some other bug when reproducing it [20:58] and end up filing 3 in a row :) [20:58] ouch [21:00] popey: Yeh so I've currently got gdb attached to X to try and figure out why xrestop crashes it (which I see you also reported), earlier I fixed a gdb bug that I ran into when previously trying to use gdb instead of xrestop.... [21:00] oh, thanks for looking at that [21:01] popey: Of course I was using xrestop to find out why X was using 100% and running like a dog - so a triple whammy, but that turned out not necessarily due to an ubuntu bug [21:02] and it's a pain since it won't fail in a vm so I have to do it on my main machine and that means I can't listen to music - and that makes me a sad penguin [21:03] :( [21:03] is the picture on your website accurate? your array of machines around you [21:04] popey: Yes, a little out of date, but approximately correct - just a bit more dust and an LCD on my main machine [21:04] oh, and the beard seems to have got longer, and the hair sparser [21:06] heh [21:07] ^_^ [21:15] popey: Problem with digging in the X server is you have to know quite about it's internal data structures (which I don't), so it's a bit of voodoo programming [21:17] (and I have to try and remember whether it's apt-get builddep, builddeps, build-dep or build-deps which I ALWAYS forget) [21:21] now you know what you've done there... I _know_ it's build-dep but now you've said that I'm gonna mistype it every time! [21:22] haha sorry about that [21:22] is it now apt-get build [21:22] ? [21:24] ooooh! [21:24] why did I not know that! [21:25] xnox Good point [21:25] in other news, we're still evil https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/ZZWLtq6tYdn [21:27] popey: Could you successfully argue against him? (OK, so he's Mr. Systemd - but he's right it would be easier if it wasn't quite so segmented - I don't actually know which is better) [21:27] have you read the comments? [21:28] surprising number of pro-ubuntu ones [21:28] I thought it would be the usual dogpile [21:28] but no, I couldn't. I don't know enough about upstart/systemd [21:28] i leave that to people like [21:29] er.. slangasek :) [21:29] popey: Me neither, but it's true that having two of them doesn't necessarily help [21:30] "systemd has not yet been included in any released enterprise distribution" [21:30] thats a somewhat compelling argument isnt it? [21:30] meh, could say the same about GNOME Shell and Unity [21:30] Oh, wait! [21:30] ;) [21:31] I think lennart totally missed the point in this conversation. [21:31] upstart already had support for running user jobs for a long time. [21:31] popey: ok, I hadn't realised upstart had won in RHEL6, I guess that pretty much settles it then [21:31] now we want to make sure that some of the /etc/xdg/autostart/*.desktop files are supervised by upstart. [21:32] penguin42: but lennart keeps on saying that it's systemd in rhel7, but that has not been released yet. [21:32] xnox: He may be in a better position to know; it's an interesting about turn if RHEL have got sysv->upstart->systemd [21:33] * penguin42 admits to preferring sysvinit, at least I knew how to debug startup [21:33] penguin42: they only run upstart in sysv compat mode, e.g. no upstart jobs, just supervise existing init scripts. [21:49] hmm, I see why it's segging - what I don't know is why it's got that value counts[(type & TypeMask) - 1]++; and type=0 [22:52] alert: SPAZ is 75% off until 10am tomorrow, and is one of the games available on the Steam for Linux beta [23:01] directhex: From now on I shall think of you more as A floating hologram of Patrick Moores head [23:01] i lack a monocle! [23:02] also, i can totally ruin gamesmaster forever for you: you can see patrick moore is actually just wearing a black turtleneck in the early seasons, it's not a floating hed at all [23:02] directhex: You can see the same with Holly in Red Dwarf [23:02] ;o [23:02] (original early Holly anyway) [23:02] RUINED! [23:02] http://cdn100.iofferphoto.com/img/item/181/621/911/gamesmaster-games-master-series-1-to-7-1edd.png <- What I think directhex really looks like [23:03] i just said i lacked a monocle. KEEP UP AT THE BACK! [23:04] Well, christmas is coming..... [23:19] i'm kind of impressed they managed to get Patrick Moore to do that job [23:19] doesn't seem quite befitting to his character...