[04:24] <Chiy0> Ubuntu stinks!
[04:51] <ldoru> FUCK
[04:51] <ldoru> fuck
[10:04] <directhex> steam sale alert: Trine 2 is 75% off, and is a currently available linux beta game
[11:03] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[11:08] <popey> morning
[11:09] <brobostigon> morning popey
[12:02] <czajkowski> morning
[12:03] <brobostigon> afternoonings czajkowski
[12:05] <d0m> wow, where did the morning go?
[12:05] <d0m> also, hello
[14:10] <jacobw> afternoonings
[14:11] <penguin42> hey
[14:44] <penguin42> anyone using a thinkpad w520 on Quantal - and have the external VGA working?
[14:47] <DJones> popey: One for you and any other rasberry pi owners https://twitter.com/danfrisk - Do you have a Raspberry Pi? We're going to make a special Minecraft version (based on PE) for it! -  Minecraft Pi edition will be free, it's a slightly cut down version of PE. With added api.
[14:48] <popey> blimey
[14:50] <DJones> How well do you think it will run on the pi
[14:51] <popey> well it runs on phones
[14:51] <popey> and the pi is about the same spec as an iphone 3g
[14:52] <DJones> Should be fairly decent then
[14:52] <DJones> Must admit, on a phone/tablet, its not outstanding due to the controls & not having a mouse
[14:53] <DJones> But it is is playable and interesting
[15:36] <czajkowski> xnox: ping
[15:36] <czajkowski> xnox: on shutting down on my machine it now takes about 20 seconds
[15:36] <czajkowski> boot up takes 4
[15:36] <czajkowski> any ideas
[15:50] <andylockran> hey guys, any recommendations for an Ubuntu laptop, hdmi :)
[15:52] <SuperEngineer> czajkowski: magnetic hdd or SSD? if ssd could be write lag [only a guess], if normal hdd...hmmm
[15:52] <DJones> andylockran: I've got a HP G72, works great, probably 18 months old
[15:53] <DJones> czajkowski: 4 second boot up? Thats not something to complain about
[15:54] <czajkowski> SSD
[15:55] <czajkowski> DJones: oh no that I love
[15:55] <czajkowski> it's the shutting down I've issues with
[15:55] <DJones> 20 seconds seems pretty quick
[15:56] <SuperEngineer> I'd be happy with those figures sometimes....
[15:56] <SuperEngineer> but it *may well be* write lag on sut down
[15:56] <SuperEngineer> *shut
[15:58] <SuperEngineer> czajkowski: [btw - thought your blog post re women [& comments aimed at] was rather well written]
[15:58] <SuperEngineer> ..good point - well made
[16:00] <czajkowski> Thank you
[16:04] <popey> andylockran, thinkpad, standard answer
[16:04] <directhex> good tool to record a full-screen desktop?
[16:05] <popey> kazam
[16:08] <penguin42> popey: Be careful, some of the thinkpads are a bit of a fight, the W520 I have on my lap is an nvidia/intel hybrid, it's a real fight to get to work on Quantal
[16:09] <popey> i would naturally avoid all hybrids
[16:10] <penguin42> popey: You can switch it out of hybrid, but the external VGA is only wired to the Nvidia hardware
[16:10] <popey> sounds rubbish :)
[16:11] <penguin42> popey: Nod :-(   I'm getting closer to having it work with Nouveau, it's looking like it requires noapic, and even then it's getting some startup hangs if I use kubuntu GL
[16:12] <penguin42> popey: Not my choice of hardware
[16:22] <mungojerry_> lol @ my 2 yr old...peeks at my laptop, and starts pressing the icons on the unity launcher on the screen
[16:23] <Azelphur> what is this inferior non-touch screen device :P
[16:24] <mungojerry_> he is rather used to my android tablet
[16:24] <Azelphur> hehe
[16:24] <AlanBell> funniest thing is when they try and pinch zoom pictures in books
[16:27] <mungojerry_> he's decided icons should be touchable, i think he's ready to the future of computing
[16:27] <AlanBell> andylockran: we have one of these on the way http://www.novatech.co.uk/laptop/range/novatechnfinityn1402.html
[16:27] <mungojerry_> maybe mice won't be around anyway when he's a teenager
[16:28] <Azelphur> I don't think mice are going to go away on things like laptops and desktops just yet, touch isn't a viable alternative
[16:28] <Azelphur> well, mice and keyboards
[16:29] <Azelphur> (step 1, hold your arm out in front of your face as if to touch the screen, step 2, keep it there for a typical 7 hour work day.)
[16:29] <zleap> for long documents you probably need a keyboard, anyone up for typing a 100k+ word uni thesis on a touch screen
[16:29] <mungojerry_> yes, there are different work modes requiring different input methid
[16:31] <mungojerry_> looking at the students in their work space, computers are for youtubing and facebooking
[16:33] <penguin42> Azelphur: Some people get on well with touchpads
[16:33] <Azelphur> touchpads are ok, touch screens arn't :p
[16:33] <penguin42> nod
[16:34] <mungojerry_> well they are great for armchair surfing or on the train
[16:34] <Azelphur> yea they are great on consumption devices
[16:34] <mungojerry_> mx player on android tablet has certain areas of the screen to reduce vol/brightness etc, very nice to watch stuff on the train
[16:36] <mungojerry_> such a grim day outside. had to stand in the rain for 30 mins while doggy got some exercise
[16:39] <mungojerry_> guys, if i type IMG_001.jpg in unity launcher, and get 3 matches, how do i know the path to each match?
[16:41] <directhex> popey, i like how 4:30 of that video are converting a unity3 project to unity4. actual linux port time is 50 seconds ;)
[16:42] <popey> yeah :)
[16:42] <popey> i was going to comment on that myself
[16:43] <directhex> frustrating that I can't strip the audio out though :(
[16:43] <popey> kazam worked then directhex ?
[16:44] <directhex> yeah, kazam worked easy. capturing on windows is another matter though
[17:01] <xnox> czajkowski: is that a regression because of installing a package I proposed to unbreak your phone? Or just a general regression?
[17:01] <xnox> for boot up - you can install package bootchart and it will give logs & pretty graphs of why the boot takes as long as it does.
[17:05] <xnox> czajkowski: not sure if there is an easy way to diagnose shut-down though you can compare: shutdown vs logout-first & shutdown. And try to pin-point "what's holding up the shutdown"
[17:05] <czajkowski> xnox: genereal
[17:05] <czajkowski> nods
[17:05] <czajkowski> ok
[17:06] <xnox> czajkowski: there are talks that there are some desktopy applications that hold open files & just plain refuse to quit, such that we wait for timeout & then kill them, resulting in shutdown delays.
[17:31] <popey> czajkowski,  be aware of bug 1081066 for bootchart :)
[17:34] <penguin42> xnox: Yeh, an unbootchart would be great - not sure where it would put it's data; but slow shutdown really annoys me, becuase I'm normally waiting to go to bed, or get out of the house etc
[17:34] <daftykins> do you people tend to hit shutdown whilst programs are all open then?
[17:35] <penguin42> daftykins: Yes; kde has a very nice ctrl-alt-shift-pagedown that does a shutdown
[17:35] <penguin42> daftykins: But it doesn't seem to be the apps that slow things down though
[17:35] <daftykins> nah i'm just more interested in styles of use
[17:35] <daftykins> as i always close programs off before a shutdown, sort of winding down toward finishing things
[17:36] <penguin42> daftykins: I close things (when I remember!) that I think are too dumb to clean themselves up
[17:43] <popey> depends, i usually close most apps before closing down
[17:43] <popey> but sometimes there's a text editor left open on another desktop
[17:59] <MartijnVdS> hi from Birmingham :-)
[17:59] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Eek what are you doing there
[18:00] <daftykins> poor guy
[19:34] <bigcalm_laptop> Ello :)
[19:35] <AlanBell> hi bigcalm_laptop
[19:35] <popey> evening
[19:36]  * penguin42 doesn't think he would want an excited or scared laptop
[19:47] <popey> balls
[19:47] <popey> bug 859600 is breaking some wine apps
[19:48] <popey> gets on my tits when people claim there's no issues at all running a 64-bit distro these days. that's just factually inaccurate
[19:53] <DJones> Depends on a person usage, I'm using 64 bit and can say that I haven't had any issues, but I'm not using anything exotic/none-standard
[19:54] <popey> exactly
[19:55] <popey> that's exactly the issue. everyone talks from their own perspective.
[19:55] <popey> without considering that there might be use cases where it actually fails.
[19:55] <popey> "well it works for me, therefore it must work for everyone" is the broken logic
[19:56] <shauno> how about "it's 2012, so I feel safe making an assumption that desktop linux has at least caught up with 2004"?
[19:57] <popey> its not a problem of desktop linux, its a problem of people asserting their experience is everyones experience in desktop linux
[19:57] <DJones> popey: Agreed, although its difficult not to use the same logic when all you're using is a default desktop & packages from the repo's
[19:57] <popey> oh sure, but who does that? :)
[19:57] <shauno> it just seems like the wrong direction to get annoyed at people assuming it works.  it should be a very reasonable assumption
[19:57] <popey> assumption is the failure
[19:58] <popey> hey ho
[20:15] <daftykins> running a 64-bit OS in the Windows world is still a bit of a laugh though, when you look at how many apps are *actually* still 32-bit atop it
[20:15] <daftykins> in fact, haha
[20:16] <daftykins> lemme put up a pic
[20:17] <daftykins> http://i.imgur.com/66f7R.gif
[20:17] <daftykins> that sums it up XD
[20:23] <bigcalm_laptop> Anybody here used a touch screen with a RPi?
[20:29] <popey> i dont care that there are 32-bit apps running on my 64-bit OS, so long as they work
[20:34] <daftykins> oh so they don't in Ubuntu? that's quite unimpressive
[20:34] <daftykins> in fact pretty shocking
[20:34] <penguin42> popey: Especially given they're often smaller and faster; and now actually work these days on Ubuntu (finally)
[20:35] <popey> daftykins, what don't work?
[20:35] <popey> daftykins, i have a bunch of 32-bit apps which run seamlessly on my 64-bit ubuntu system
[20:35] <popey> but some libraries haven't been converted to multiarch which means you can't install 64 and 32-bit versions of them side by side
[20:35] <popey> its one reason why 32-bit steam on 64-bit ubuntu doesn't have an indicator in the panel
[20:35] <penguin42> it's not bad these days on Quantal
[20:36] <popey> yeah, its not many
[20:36] <popey> but it's some crucial ones
[20:36] <penguin42> nod
[20:36] <popey> i dont mind that they dont work, free software and all that
[20:36] <popey> i mind more that people claim everything is peachy :)
[20:37] <daftykins> sounds very messy
[20:37] <penguin42> yeh, it's certainly a heck of a lot better than a year ago
[20:37] <penguin42> a year ago it just wasn't doable, where as RHEL/Fedora have been pretty much working for years on it - so it's definitely going in the right direction
[20:37] <popey> yeah, i quite like the implementation of it
[20:38] <popey> apt-get install foo gets me the 64-bit version, apt-get install foo:i386 gets me the 32-bit one
[20:38] <penguin42> popey: Not sure yet, it's a little overkill for the PC case (but nice for ARM) and I'm not convinced things like Gnome plugins work yet
[20:38] <daftykins> i didn't realise there was a steam beta
[20:39] <popey> i was playing Serious Sam 3 BFE today on Linux :)
[20:39] <daftykins> ah-har
[20:40] <popey> my poor intel only machine barely kept up
[20:40] <daftykins> decent performance? assuming you have a decent graphics card
[20:40] <daftykins> ah XD
[20:40] <popey> yeah, nvidia is fine
[20:40] <daftykins> i see the beta site is referring to nvidia having done some work :O
[20:40] <popey> yeah, there's been collaboration between canonical, valve and nvidia
[20:41] <popey> one of the guys from valve came along to UDS last month
[20:41] <daftykins> ooh
[20:41] <popey> also a bunch of people from Unity3D
[20:41] <daftykins> if you build it, they will come - indeed
[20:41] <popey> directhex did a video earlier showing how easy it can be to port games over from Windows to Linux if written in Unity3D
[20:42] <popey> still lots of work to do of course
[20:42] <daftykins> quantal ISO is 753MB, cor that must be getting to overburn territory
[20:42] <popey> it's intentionally more than a CD size now
[20:42] <daftykins> oh?
[20:42] <popey> yeah
[20:42] <daftykins> sort of closing off attempts that might be made to put it on older hardware?
[20:43] <daftykins> i completely forgot about the 12.10 release
[20:43] <penguin42> daftykins: I think they just gave up trying to squeeze it on
[20:43] <popey> DVDs and USB sticks work fine
[20:43] <popey> it was a deliberate choice
[20:43] <popey> there's still a limit
[20:43] <penguin42> daftykins: It's ok on older hardware via USB sticks, and frankly anything that won't boot off USB sticks these days is just too much of a fight with Ubuntu, I've done it on an older AMD box but it was one heck of a fight
[20:44] <daftykins> yeah i know all this
[20:44] <daftykins> i just find it a bit of a curious decision
[20:44] <popey> less stress for us trying to constantly crowbar stuff in
[20:44] <penguin42> daftykins: Why? Why spend the effort squeezing when very few people are stuck using CD to install
[20:44] <penguin42> daftykins: You can still install using something like Ubuntu server and add the other packages
[20:45] <daftykins> because it's a cheaper medium
[20:45] <penguin42> by how many c these days?
[20:45] <penguin42> daftykins: In the end a reusable USB stick is cheaper
[20:45] <daftykins> well, i think you're considering a particular user type there
[20:46] <penguin42> daftykins: Most people have come to the conclusion that burning CD/DVDs is just too much of a pain
[20:46] <penguin42> daftykins: I've had to do a lot of weird/older machines and even I try and avoid CDs
[20:46] <popey> i cant recall the last time I burned a CD
[20:47] <daftykins> i'm afraid i still find everything you're saying obvious but it doesn't make it any less of a surprise :P
[20:47] <penguin42> popey: I tried recently, I had a machine that had a bios bug that meant it didn't like USB thumb drive booting; fortunately someone told me it worked if I used a PS/2 keyboard on it - really got me rialled
[20:47] <daftykins> i'm certainly rocking a collection of flash drives too, but nevermind
[20:48] <penguin42> daftykins: These days you need to be a bit of an expert to get Ubuntu on more than say 7 year old machines, if you are then you can do it with a ubuntu-server disc, anything newer the  larger image/use of a thumb drive isn't an issue; I agree it's a shame it just doesn't work on older stuff
[20:48] <daftykins> can you stop patronising now =/
[20:49] <penguin42> shrug - I wasn't trying to!
[20:49] <popey> then again if you can get ubuntu on a 7 year old machine you probably wouldn't want to run it
[20:49] <popey> probably better using lubuntu or xubuntu I guess
[20:49] <penguin42> but fortunately I've now bought my dad a machine that is new; shame he tripped a kernel bug on it though :-(
[20:50] <popey> is that the lenovo?
[20:50] <penguin42> popey: No
[20:50] <penguin42> popey: My dad's is a low end Sandybridge desktop, it triggers a kernel bug only when connected via a kvm; other people have triggered the same bug under different cases
[20:50] <DJones> There's always the minimal iso to burn to a cd as another option
[20:51] <penguin42> popey: Bug 1070690
[20:51] <penguin42> popey: I'm too mean to buy my dad a Lenovo
[20:52] <penguin42> popey: Unfortunately 3 out of 4 machines I've installed Quantal on have triggered series graphics (either kernel or X) bugs - all very different hardware
[20:53] <popey> heh
[20:53] <popey> is that intel hd3000 or 2000?
[20:54] <popey> i didnt realise the mobo in my desktop is "only" hd2000 (it's a cheapo zoostorm i7)
[20:54] <popey> which is one reason why some games are really crappy on it
[20:54] <penguin42> popey: Not sure off hand; my dads it's a G645 CPU, bottom end dual core with integrated gpu
[20:55] <popey> ahh, dual-core.. even worse :S
[20:55] <penguin42> popey: This is the more cheapo zoostorm - the 199 one
[20:55] <daftykins> err the GPU is on-die of the CPU in i-series
[20:55] <popey> hehe
[20:55] <popey> yes, no need to patronise daftykins :p
[20:55] <popey> its still called a GPU
[20:55] <daftykins> yes but, hang on
[20:55] <daftykins> < popey> i didnt realise the mobo in my desktop is "only" hd2000 (it's a
[20:55] <daftykins>                cheapo zoostorm i7)
[20:55] <daftykins> ^mobo?
[20:55] <daftykins> no relevance then surely
[20:55] <popey> meh
[20:56] <popey> s/mobo/cpu/
[20:56] <popey> s/mobo/black box under the desk/
[20:57] <daftykins> i see
[20:57] <penguin42> popey: I just seem to have had a !?$* week for bugs :-(
[20:57] <popey> yeah, I think we all have those now and then
[20:58] <popey> i sometimes have a day where I think "I'll file that bug I have been meaning to" and end up with a crash in the bug reporter, then discover some other bug when reproducing it
[20:58] <popey> and end up filing 3 in a row :)
[20:58] <daftykins> ouch
[21:00] <penguin42> popey: Yeh so I've currently got gdb attached to X to try and figure out why xrestop crashes it (which I see you also reported), earlier I fixed a gdb bug that I ran into when previously trying to use gdb instead of xrestop....
[21:00] <popey> oh, thanks for looking at that
[21:01] <penguin42> popey: Of course I was using xrestop to find out why X was using 100% and running like a dog - so a triple whammy, but that turned out not necessarily due to an ubuntu bug
[21:02] <penguin42> and it's a pain since it won't fail in a vm so I have to do it on my main machine and that means I can't listen to music - and that makes me a sad penguin
[21:03] <popey> :(
[21:03] <popey> is the picture on your website accurate? your array of machines around you
[21:04] <penguin42> popey: Yes, a little out of date, but approximately correct - just a bit more dust and an LCD on my main machine
[21:04] <penguin42> oh, and the beard seems to have got longer, and the hair sparser
[21:06] <popey> heh
[21:07] <daftykins> ^_^
[21:15] <penguin42> popey: Problem with digging in the X server is you have to know quite about it's internal data structures (which I don't), so it's a bit of voodoo programming
[21:17] <penguin42> (and I have to try and remember whether it's apt-get builddep, builddeps, build-dep or build-deps    which I ALWAYS forget)
[21:21] <popey> now you know what you've done there... I _know_ it's build-dep but now you've said that I'm gonna mistype it every time!
[21:22] <penguin42> haha sorry about that
[21:22] <xnox> is it now apt-get build<TAB>
[21:22] <xnox> ?
[21:24] <popey> ooooh!
[21:24] <popey> why did I not know that!
[21:25] <penguin42> xnox Good point
[21:25] <popey> in other news, we're still evil https://plus.google.com/115547683951727699051/posts/ZZWLtq6tYdn
[21:27] <penguin42> popey: Could you successfully argue against him? (OK, so he's Mr. Systemd - but he's right it would be easier if it wasn't quite so segmented - I don't actually know which is better)
[21:27] <popey> have you read the comments?
[21:28] <popey> surprising number of pro-ubuntu ones
[21:28] <popey> I thought it would be the usual dogpile
[21:28] <popey> but no, I couldn't. I don't know enough about upstart/systemd
[21:28] <popey> i leave that to people like
[21:29] <popey> er.. slangasek :)
[21:29] <penguin42> popey: Me neither, but it's true that having two of them doesn't necessarily help
[21:30] <popey> "systemd has not yet been included in any released enterprise distribution"
[21:30] <popey> thats a somewhat compelling argument isnt it?
[21:30] <popey> meh, could say the same about GNOME Shell and Unity
[21:30] <popey> Oh, wait!
[21:30] <popey> ;)
[21:31] <xnox> I think lennart totally missed the point in this conversation.
[21:31] <xnox> upstart already had support for running user jobs for a long time.
[21:31] <penguin42> popey: ok, I hadn't realised upstart had won in RHEL6, I guess that pretty much settles it then
[21:31] <xnox> now we want to make sure that some of the /etc/xdg/autostart/*.desktop files are supervised by upstart.
[21:32] <xnox> penguin42: but lennart keeps on saying that it's systemd in rhel7, but that has not been released yet.
[21:32] <penguin42> xnox: He may be in a better position to know; it's an interesting about turn if RHEL have got sysv->upstart->systemd
[21:33]  * penguin42 admits to preferring sysvinit, at least I knew how to debug startup
[21:33] <xnox> penguin42: they only run upstart in sysv compat mode, e.g. no upstart jobs, just supervise existing init scripts.
[21:49] <penguin42> hmm, I see why it's segging - what I don't know is why it's got that value   counts[(type & TypeMask) - 1]++;       and type=0
[22:52] <directhex> alert: SPAZ is 75% off until 10am tomorrow, and is one of the games available on the Steam for Linux beta
[23:01] <daubers> directhex: From now on I shall think of you more as A floating hologram of Patrick Moores head
[23:01] <directhex> i lack a monocle!
[23:02] <directhex> also, i can totally ruin gamesmaster forever for you: you can see patrick moore is actually just wearing a black turtleneck in the early seasons, it's not a floating hed at all
[23:02] <daubers> directhex: You can see the same with Holly in Red Dwarf
[23:02] <directhex> ;o
[23:02] <daubers> (original early Holly anyway)
[23:02] <directhex> RUINED!
[23:02] <daubers> http://cdn100.iofferphoto.com/img/item/181/621/911/gamesmaster-games-master-series-1-to-7-1edd.png <- What I think directhex really looks like
[23:03] <directhex> i just said i lacked a monocle. KEEP UP AT THE BACK!
[23:04] <daubers> Well, christmas is coming.....
[23:19] <daftykins> i'm kind of impressed they managed to get Patrick Moore to do that job
[23:19] <daftykins> doesn't seem quite befitting to his character...