[04:16] <GNUHerd> Excuse me
[04:16] <GNUHerd> I am not trying to be mean, to you or anyone involved with Ubuntu.
[04:17] <GNUHerd> But PEOPLE DIED when a software error crashed Air France 447.
[04:17] <GNUHerd> And as much as I recognize you have done nothing to me, I know the right thing is to speak up.
[04:17] <GNUHerd> Even though I see the right thing to do is hurtful to others, I will not allow myself to compromise on my principles.
[04:17] <GNUHerd> Read these in order.
[04:17] <GNUHerd> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/at-spi/+bug/562776
[04:17] <GNUHerd> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/863054
[04:17] <GNUHerd> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openssh/+bug/708493
[04:55] <GNUHerd> http://www2.oceantrailer.com/indexloc.html
[13:09] <nikolam> Does Ubuntu plans to stick to unity? I see people migrating off it everywhere. I personally do no t get "all in one button" "applications not sorted" philosophy.
[13:09] <nikolam> But I am tryong to.
[13:10] <popey> yes, we're not moving off unity
[13:12] <k1l_> it would be very dumb to drop unity after all that effort and acceptance for the DE, and the TV and mobile section
[13:16] <popey> it also poses the question "what would we use instead"
[13:17] <k1l_> most ppl will answer "gnome2!!!!!!!" which most even dont use ubuntu :/
[13:18] <AlanBell> I would like to see some more harmonisation with gnome-shell
[13:18] <AlanBell> but I would expect the two to remain distinct
[13:18] <k1l_> and nikolam the applications are sorted. first you can go with super+a and klick on a subcategorie or there are several unity dashs which act like the gnome2-menu
[13:19] <AlanBell> just little things like the top panel menus look massively better on gnome shell with the speech bubble and colours rather than the flat grey/brown stuff we have at the moment
[13:19] <AlanBell> and I would expect the way workspaces work in Unity to change at some point, I don't think that is a critical part of what unity is
[13:20] <nikolam> k1l_, oh yes, but user needs to click once more, on filters and filter them
[13:20] <AlanBell> nikolam: not in some third party lenses
[13:21] <AlanBell> there are much better ways of arranging an apps lens than the default one
[13:21] <k1l_> well, most people use themes anyway (or at least the users who care about design) but the way ubuntu uses the indicators is way more logical than the gnome-shell top panel and bottom panel mixup
[13:22] <AlanBell> are there themes for Ubuntu still?
[13:22] <k1l_> nikolam: just because you learned the last years how you can slide your mouse through the gnome2 menu doesnt mean it is a better menu
[13:22] <k1l_> AlanBell: at least i customized my unity, so there must be some themes because im a program noob myself :)
[13:23] <AlanBell> I haven't really looked to be honest, I kind of assumed that most of the GTK themes wouldn't apply to the NUX layer
[13:23] <nikolam> k1l_, problem is I used xfce for several years and 3 LTS. I did not even like gnome ways.
[13:24] <nikolam> But willing to learn unity, to see if it is good idea.
[13:25] <k1l_> i tried gnome-shell and liked that the second monitor doesnt rotate with the first monitor and loved gTile! extension
[13:26] <k1l_> but it showed to me, which improvment the global-menu meant to display-space with several windows on a display.
[13:28] <k1l_> i dont think that every user must love unity. but most critics just come from "i want unity to be like gnome2" which i dont understand
[13:42] <nikolam> k1l_, As I am informed (not much) most critics goes to "half of unity is sending my data to third parties".
[13:43] <k1l_> with alot of FUD that its not uninstallable or not unconfigurable
[13:47] <nikolam> k1l_, yes. I am just trying to agains that FUD and uninstall all personal data-reporting parts from unity. To make it "behave" .
[13:48] <nikolam> To see if it unity can be made user privacy friendly or not.
[13:56] <AlanBell> the privacy thing is totally fixable, however they haven't done a good job of doing so yet
[13:59] <nikolam> AlanBell, thing is, there are privacy switches in Unity. But it needs to be done manually, it is not transparent to the user (except thankfully it is available in legal notes page) and can not be set for the whole system, but for per-user, while happily leaking for other users.
[13:59] <AlanBell> no, it doesn't work
[13:59] <nikolam> someone mentioned gsettings. Maybe that can turn off all leaking parts.
[14:00] <AlanBell> or rather, it is a preference setting for the default lenses
[14:01] <k1l_> well, if you dont want it systemwide, you can uninstall the packages.
[14:03] <nikolam> k1l_, yes. trying to. now it is how to remove video lens since I have info it does it too.
[14:03] <AlanBell> sure, you can remove the lenses as a whole, but that rather negates the point of unity
[14:03] <k1l_> but this paranoia and FUD leads to strange situations. we have alot of users asking why the unity dash is that "dumb" to not find recent files and folders etc. turns out they disabled zeitgeist because they read anywehere that its "evil"
[14:04] <AlanBell> you don't need to remove any of the default lenses to turn off internet searching, just check the privacy box
[14:04] <AlanBell> however if you have any third party lenses they won't respect that setting
[14:04] <k1l_> nikolam: well. that is in the nature of a video lense. if it should find online videos it has to send information online :/
[14:05] <nikolam> I love to explore new things. But seems like good ideas behind unity, can not be viewed right, behide privacy issues and FUD.
[14:06] <AlanBell> yeah, lenses are a great idea, the privacy issue is mostly FUD (I really don't care at all if Amazon gets lots of searches for "gedit")
[14:06] <nikolam> k1l_, I am too much frighten by sharing my data without control to see benefits of Unity.
[14:06] <AlanBell> for me the botched implementation of the privacy thing is massively worse than the problem it claims to solve
[14:07] <nikolam> Well I care. If I search local system, I want to know where searches go and not on internet.
[14:07] <AlanBell> and you think that is what the checkbox in the privacy dialog does right?
[14:07] <nikolam> I would like to add one search thing at a time, and be able to manage how it works and how privite it is. Not to "have it all running" by default.
[14:08] <AlanBell> how many of these lenses do you think check for the undocumented flag and correctly don't send dash searches to the internet? http://askubuntu.com/questions/38772/what-lenses-for-unity-are-available
[14:08] <nikolam> AlanBell, I supposed it disables informations from me sending to third parties.
[14:09] <AlanBell> it doesn't disable anything. It sets a flag in gsettings (or somewhere) and the lenses we ship by default look for that undocumented flag and modify their behavior accordingly
[14:09] <nikolam> I have no idea what unity does as a whole with my data now.
[14:10] <AlanBell> so, interesting question for you. If I was to write a lens that searches intranet servers for stuff (private, internal company servers, possibly with authenticated access) should it or should it not respect the privacy flag?
[14:12] <nikolam> As I see now, there are awasome lenses out there. But it is important to know what they are doing and I see no central checking point for their behavior.
[14:12] <nikolam> AlanBell, that depends on user running that lense.
[14:13] <nikolam> and domain usage rights. Local machine admnistrator should be setting it. If it could not be set, It goes against policies of local organisation, etc. it is complicated.
[14:13] <AlanBell> so, if it respects the flag you have to send your data to amazon and canonical and flickr and youtube if you want your local business lens to work
[14:14] <AlanBell> and if it doesn't respect the flag then OMG AlanBell is evil!!!11!!
[14:14] <AlanBell> so I am not releasing it
[14:16] <nikolam> It is complicated. needs review to all the aspects etc. Traverses over usage cases, security models, usage rights. It is all around OMG thing.
[14:16] <AlanBell> yeah, it is just disappointing that the option they went for has this chilling effect
[14:17] <AlanBell> it *could* be done by having a list of lenses or possibly scopes that can listen to global search queries
[14:17] <AlanBell> so the user would have control of what can present results to the home lens
[14:18] <nikolam> Seems like much more complicated architecture needed to get job done.
[14:19] <AlanBell> slightly
[18:20] <Pici> oops
[18:20] <AlanBell> :)