[00:17] <rick_h_> jcastro_: need a jigsaw, chop saw, or table saw? clearing out some unused tools
[00:22] <dzho> rick_h_: would you be inclined to offer them to a hackerspace?
[00:25] <rick_h_> dzho: oh hmm, hackerspace. Need a table saw, chisels, and such as well? /me is trying to sell of tools I don't use to get a new bandsaw.
[00:26] <dzho> rick_h_: I don't know if there are any in your area that are interested in buying, just thought I'd represent that possibility for a moment :-)
[00:26] <dzho> hacker/makerspace might be a good filter for targetting to find buyers, at least.
[00:27] <rick_h_> yea, I'm trying to sell to my woodworking group. But by being in the group you tend to have this stuff so the basic tools don't seem to sell well
[00:30] <rick_h_> dzho: so you thinking i3? Or another group you were thinking of?
[00:30]  * rick_h_ should look at his list membership. Was following one of the groups a while back
[12:04] <rick_h_> morning
[12:05] <brousch> ug
[12:06] <rick_h_> yea, with you there
[12:17] <brousch> time to get coffee and head to work
[12:21] <snap-l> morning
[13:05] <rick_h_> http://twitpic.com/bgmtow ah monday
[13:17] <brousch> It's Cyber Monday! So who wants to cyber?
[13:17]  * rick_h_ wishes he could splurge on some lee valley cyber goodness
[13:19] <brousch> Did you just say you wanted to splurge on some tools?
[14:03] <snap-l> rick_h_: Love it. :)
[14:04] <snap-l> Argh, was hoping the MDI cable nonsense that VW has would be partof their Cyber MOnday sale
[14:04] <snap-l> nope, just a bunch of wearables and branded crap
[14:04] <snap-l> Ah well. One can dream
[14:19] <snap-l> Apress has all of their ebooks on sale for $15 each
[14:20] <snap-l> Picked up Foundations of Python Network Programming, and Pro HTML 5
[14:21] <brousch> So all caught up on your old books then?
[14:23] <snap-l> brousch: Remember what happened to Jiminy Cricket in Pinocchio? :)
[14:23] <brousch> No
[14:23] <snap-l> I can stop whenever I want.
[14:24]  * snap-l has come to accept he will have a backlog.
[14:25] <dzho> I just wait for new technologies to be replaced.
[14:25] <dzho> I find it saves me a lot of time.
[14:26] <snap-l> dzho: Yeah, that doesn't nearly work as well as one might think.
[14:26] <dzho> neither do I, I suppose ;-)
[14:56] <rick_h_> brousch: yea, but I'm pinching pennies to get  a big tool :)
[14:57] <rick_h_> heh, oreilly had a 50% thing off all books today I thought I saw
[14:59] <rick_h_> ok now this is interesting http://thenextweb.com/google/2012/11/26/google-acquires-wireless-internet-network-provider-icoa-for-400-million/
[15:00] <snap-l> btw: if someone is looking to pick up The Art of Computer Programming, InformIT has it 50% off
[15:00] <snap-l> Physical book, not the eBook
[15:00] <snap-l> If you don't have it already, now's a great time to stick it to Addison Wesley for supporting SOPA. ;)
[15:01] <snap-l> (subsidiary of Pearson)
[15:01] <snap-l> free ground shipping
[15:41] <brousch> snap-l:  http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/11/26/1456237/oreilly-discounts-every-ebook-by-50
[15:51] <snap-l> brousch: Yeah, I know. :)
[15:51] <snap-l> I thought you were about me not buying more books. ;)
[15:51] <brousch> hah
[15:51] <snap-l> Also, Sheldon (the comic) has one of their books on sale for $1 + shipping
[15:53] <snap-l> I've been buying the O'Reilly eBooks over the paper ones, because a) they get updated, and b) They load them into Dropbox for me. :)
[15:54] <rick_h_> bwuhahaha, charging mifi and headphones at the coffee shop...dual out batteries ftw
[15:55] <rick_h_> now hurry up and charge headphones...christmas music fml
[15:56] <snap-l> rick_h_: Yeah, it's my least favorite music
[15:59] <brousch> But what about OMc Xmas edition?
[16:00] <snap-l> Yeah, not sure I'm doing one this year. :)
[16:00] <snap-l> Will have to think about it. :)
[16:00] <rick_h_> Dec 1, then I'll pull out the trans siberian orchestra
[16:01] <snap-l> Blergh.
[16:01] <snap-l> I ODed on that to the point where I can't listen to that album
[16:01] <rick_h_> album? there's a ton
[16:01] <rick_h_> well, several
[16:01] <snap-l> I have the first one
[16:01] <snap-l> also the Savatage album that became TSO
[16:02] <snap-l> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Winter_Dead
[16:06] <snap-l> I don't mind TSO, but they're like the Manheim Steamroller of Metal
[16:07] <snap-l> Great musicians, and horribly overplayed during December
[16:07] <jjesse> well they haven't really came out w/ a new christmas album have them
[16:07] <jjesse> they
[16:07] <jjesse> i took my wife to a show twice and it was the same stuff, no idea why i would want to go again
[16:09] <rick_h_> so they've got 3 christmas albums, couple non-christmas I've gotten. I tend to only break them out for the holidays
[16:09] <brousch> LASERS
[16:10] <rick_h_> looks like a new small album came out end of oct
[16:10] <jjesse> night castle or whatever it is is pretty good, i listen to that at different times of year other than the holidays
[16:10] <rick_h_> yea, agree that come actual christmas it's put away, but at least it's better than a lot of the usual christmas stuff
[16:10] <snap-l> Yeah, I have no problem with them, just overdosed to the point where I'm not interested any more
[16:10] <rick_h_> jjesse: yea, I really dug the beethoven last night one
[16:11] <jjesse> agreed
[16:13]  * greg-g reads scroll back and responds to one thing:
[16:13] <rick_h_> greg-g: morning :)
[16:13] <greg-g> I do actually enjoy two of the 3 SOMA.fm xmas stations (xmas in frisko, and the new alternative one)
[16:14] <greg-g> don't know why I mixed spelling out the numbers and numerals there, (two vs 3), g'morn ;)
[16:16] <snap-l> greg-g: I may have to check those stations out
[16:18] <greg-g> the frisko one has some weird stuff every now and then, like, really weird
[16:18] <rick_h_> lol
[16:18] <greg-g> just like SF in general ;)
[16:18] <rick_h_> coming from greg-g that scares me
[16:19] <greg-g> :) I do like my weird
[16:33]  * snap-l is listening to Infections Grooves. Better than any Xmas music. ;)
[16:34] <jcastro_> those guys are awesome
[16:34] <snap-l> Their cover of Fame is killer
[16:34] <snap-l> Bah, Infectious Grooves
[16:51] <Blazeix> rick_h_: what's that speaker you were showing off at CHC?
[16:52] <rick_h_> speaker?
[16:53] <rick_h_> Blazeix: ^
[16:53] <Blazeix> yeah, a couple months ago, it was some sort of cylindrical usb speaker, or maybe wireless
[16:53] <snap-l> The Bluetooth speaker
[16:53] <rick_h_> ah, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007OLJDZG/ref=wms_ohs_product
[16:53] <rick_h_> <3
[16:54] <Blazeix> ah, that's it, thanks
[16:54] <snap-l> Well, I went from wanting a book about Atari Inc: The Business of Fun, to really not caring so much because of their instistance on DRM on the ebook copy.
[17:01] <devinheitmueller> snap-l: I have the "Once Upon Atari" movie.  Not bad.
[17:01] <greg-g> snap-l: pirate!
[17:02] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: Yeah, I picked up the VHS from HSW at a con
[17:03] <snap-l> greg-g: Yeah, I'm a filthy pirate hippie
[17:03] <devinheitmueller> Ah, I was going to offer to loan it to you, but no need then.
[17:03] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: NP. Thanks. :)
[17:03] <greg-g> "loan"?! you're both pirates!
[17:03] <devinheitmueller> heh
[17:03] <rick_h_> ugh https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/273063716021497856 gets me going
[17:03] <snap-l> Got him to sign a Raiders of the Lost Ark cart for JoDee.
[17:03] <devinheitmueller> So is the library apparently then.
[17:04] <greg-g> devinheitmueller: in the UK, it is kinda, as in, they have to buy special "library copies" to lend out because their copyright law is busted. In the US we have the first sale doctrine
[17:04] <snap-l> rick_h_: Yeah, especially since it isn't true. :)
[17:04] <devinheitmueller> Yes, I am not in the UK though.
[17:04] <devinheitmueller> :-)
[17:04] <greg-g> rick_h_: anything that has the word zealot in it is worthless, no matter the source
[17:04] <greg-g> devinheitmueller: sure sure, just your random (C) trivia of the day ;)
[17:05] <devinheitmueller> Well, thank you then.
[17:05] <greg-g> You're welcome.
[17:05] <rick_h_> greg-g: yea, the webkit thing is the one that bugs me the most. and the fact that it ignores the whole system lock in crap. ugh!
[17:05] <rick_h_> but that's the goal, it's troll-bait
[17:05] <greg-g> zactly
[17:06] <snap-l> rick_h_: Never let the facts get in the way of perfectly good troll bait
[17:06] <snap-l> rick_h_: Sent a response to Popey correcting him for that tweet. ;)
[17:07] <devinheitmueller> People have argued that Samsung is largely just a consumer of OSS (and they do the bare minimum required to release the source code to their modified kernel).  However I can say first hand they are a *huge* contributor at least to the LinuxTV project.
[17:07] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: I had a Samsung Printer. The fact that it had Linux drivers was a huge plus to me
[17:07] <rick_h_> yea, in the end I don't care about their OSS contributions.
[17:07] <rick_h_> they sell devices, ones I can buy and do whatever the $%#@$# I want with
[17:07] <snap-l> Unfortunately the "I refuse to turn on after two years" was a bit of a let-down
[17:07] <rick_h_> now let's look at the other side...apple...riiiight
[17:10] <devinheitmueller> I'm just saying there tend to be two classes of corporate OSS:  those that consume OSS and do the bare minimum to comply with the GPL requirements, and those who actively engage with the community, create new contributions, and work to get their stuff merged upstream.
[17:11] <rick_h_> devinheitmueller: I think there's a third though coming out. The ones that comsume, modify, and kind of submit upstream on slightly diff terms.
[17:12] <rick_h_> at least I think how apple/google works with kthml/webkit is different than many other devs
[17:12] <devinheitmueller> "diff terms" meaning licensing?
[17:12] <rick_h_> well, just that not active, behind closed doors, with occassional dumps of code
[17:12] <rick_h_> though I think google/webkit are a bit cleaner on that end
[17:12] <greg-g> you mean android? ;)
[17:12] <rick_h_> I do mean android
[17:12] <rick_h_> but I think it's more broad than that
[17:12] <greg-g> :)
[17:12]  * rick_h_ looks in employer mirror some
[17:13] <greg-g> hahahaha
[17:13] <devinheitmueller> I can say firsthand that getting code actually *upstream* can be a huge exercise.  You're just trying to get something done, and in many ways the approach you take isn't the one the upstream maintainers want (not generic enough, doesn't take into account other use cases you don't care about, etc)
[17:13] <rick_h_> devinheitmueller: definitely agree. I've had several patches just sit and I get tired of trying to get them in
[17:13] <rick_h_> ty github fork and move on mode
[17:13] <devinheitmueller> Yup.
[17:14] <rick_h_> but it's more for business reasons in this 3rd group I think.
[17:14] <devinheitmueller> I'm wrangling with the VLC team this week.  I'm on my fifth attempt to get a relatively simple patch accepted.
[17:14] <rick_h_> dev in secret/together and then dump back to OSS to take/leave
[17:14] <rick_h_> ok, so maybe my idea of more than just the 2 distinct camps is a bit naive
[17:15] <rick_h_> but it sure seems there's more than consumers and producers
[17:19]  * greg-g nods
[19:14] <rick_h_> crap, this was interesting but now it's fake http://goo.gl/mtJqZ
[19:20] <snap-l> Wow, that's quite the stock jump
[19:20] <snap-l> $.0005 from $.0001
[19:21] <brousch> Nice job, rick_h_, lining some pump-and-dumper's pockets
[19:23] <rick_h_> woot
[19:23] <snap-l> https://twitter.com/tarasyoung/status/273110968123400193
[19:23] <snap-l> This is where I get cranky.
[19:23] <rick_h_> I bought 10,000 shares with my lunch money
[19:23] <rick_h_> woo cranky monday!
[19:24] <rick_h_> lol, at least @popey corrected the 'making webkit' crap
[19:25] <snap-l> Yeah, @popey realized his error pretty early on
[19:33] <rick_h_> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Postgres amen!
[19:44] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: OK if I reference you in a tweet?
[19:44] <devinheitmueller> Uh, sure.
[19:46] <snap-l> https://twitter.com/squeekyhoho/status/273150447852863489 < devinheitmueller
[19:49] <rick_h_> hah, chased him away
[19:49] <snap-l> Uh oh
[19:54] <snap-l> devinheitmueller: I fear I chased you away. ;)
[19:54] <devinheitmueller> No, I'm actually doing some router testing, which is intermittently kicking me off the Internets.
[19:55] <devinheitmueller> As a general rule, it's bad practice to use your main PC *through* a router you are actively developing code for.
[19:55] <snap-l> Heh
[19:56] <devinheitmueller> OTOH, openwrt is a pretty neat little project.
[19:57] <snap-l> I use Tomato myself, but I love these little firmware projects.
[19:59] <devinheitmueller> Yeah, I was able to port to a new platform over a long weekend.
[20:13] <snap-l> There are some days when SQL makes you feel like you have super powers
[20:14] <snap-l> as opposed to the other days where SQL makes you feel like you are undeserving of even a crayon to scrawl your blatherings.
[20:17] <jhansonxi> Try SQL through M$ Office sometime.  You'll be begging to at least get a crayon.
[20:18] <snap-l> We do not speak of MS Office and SQL in the same breath
[20:18] <brousch> It's all drag and drop
[20:18] <brousch> You don't even write queries
[20:19] <snap-l> I do love it when I create cartesian product that the MySQL server detects and kills, though
[20:19] <snap-l> that was fun.
[20:21] <jrwren_> wtf is SQL through office?
[20:21] <jrwren_> you mean access as a front end? its not that bad.
[20:21] <jrwren_> its terrible in the hands of an undereducated user, but very powerful in hands of a professional
[20:22] <jhansonxi> It may have improved in the last release or two but when I was working with it the SQL support was rather crippled.  Very few command supported.  SQL Server wasn't the problem, just Office.
[20:23] <jhansonxi> (and its broken drivers)
[20:23] <jhansonxi> OpenOffice.org was much better.
[20:29] <jhansonxi> I was responsible for inventory DB maintenance and generating bill-of-materials.  I used Excel for the reports because of a bug in OOo caused conditional formatting to be lost when a data range was updated from a DB.  I got out of that position when management decided to upgrade from SQL Server to Access (Jet or whatever).
[20:35] <jrwren_> ah, excel.
[20:35] <jrwren_> right tool for right job :)
[20:36] <jrwren_> wait, upgrade FROM SQL Server to Access ?
[20:37] <brousch> Access is the bizomb
[20:42] <jhansonxi> jrwren_: Yep.  The boss (very experienced Windows SE) replaced PeachTree accounting system with Great Plains.  GP did almost nothing he wanted but allowed to to customize it better.  He wanted to integrate the inventory DB with it and thought that accessing SQL Server from .NET was "too hard".  So the existing DB was deleted (no attempt to port the data) and a new one started using Access only.
[20:43] <jhansonxi> Several years of data wiped out and I knew how unstable the Access engine was in a multi-user environment.
[20:44] <jhansonxi> The fact that the SQL Server team had deprecated the engine development didn't deter him because the Office team forked it (because of some query function they couldn't live without).
[20:45] <jrwren_> GP?!?!  what year was it?
[20:45] <jrwren_> oh, and anyone who thinkgs accessing SQL Server from .NET is too hard, is foolish at best :)
[20:46] <brousch> mmmm, Great Plains
[20:46] <jhansonxi> About 5 years ago (GP is Dynamics now)
[20:47] <brousch> I long for Great Plains. It was so much easier to query than this clusterfuck called Quickbooks
[20:47] <jrwren_> QB is a nightmare.
[20:47] <jrwren_> but all of them sucking so badly suggests the market is ripe for the plucking :)
[20:48] <brousch> The problem is no one _wants_ to create accounting software
[20:48] <jrwren_> exactly.
[20:48] <jrwren_> its not a fun place to be in software dev.
[20:48] <jhansonxi> Today, if I needed an inventory control system I wouldn't waste time on anything that wasn't browser-based.
[20:48] <brousch> So the people making it are the ones who can't cut it in more fun jobs
[20:50] <jhansonxi> It's not bad job security if you can tolerate the environment: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1994-06-10/
[20:50] <jhansonxi> I've found accounting people to be the most paranoid of software changes.
[21:09] <jrwren_> are there browser based inventory control systems?
[21:43] <jhansonxi> jrwren_: Probably but I haven't looked in quite a while.  I'm not doing IT currently, just contract PCB design (electronics CAD).
[21:56] <brousch> I need to get all objects from a table for one thing, and a subset of them for another on the same page. Should I make two database calls or one and filter the subset myself?
[21:56] <brousch> Two calls is much cleaner
[21:57] <brousch> Hm, actually I need 3 calls sometimes
[22:05] <Blazeix> without knowing anything about your problem, i'd vote for grabbing them once, then filtering when you need the subset
[22:07] <brousch> I wonder if Django optimizes it automagically
[22:21] <rick_h_> make 3 calls, 3 db calls aren't that slow and keep them split.
[22:21] <rick_h_> test each seperately
[22:21] <rick_h_> if you can share a chunk then share it and have all three queries call the shared method
[22:21] <rick_h_> and if you hit a performance issue then make the first call a @cachedproperty kind of thing and then reuse it
[22:23] <jrwren_> only 1 db call per pageload allowed. :p
[22:23]  * rick_h_ looks at launchpad (admittingly slow) doing well into double digits ALL THE TIME
[22:23] <jrwren_> i'm just anti select N+1
[22:23] <rick_h_> https://launchpad.net/launchpad just did 68 queries in .62 of db time
[22:23] <jrwren_> as long as you don't have N+1, I'm happy.
[22:24] <jrwren_> i was j/k about 1 db call per pageload
[22:24] <rick_h_> yea, and if you've got three different reasons to query, you want to keep them apart and not relying on each
[22:24] <rick_h_> yea, I mean bookie is kept pretty much to 2-5 at max, but it's very simple
[22:24] <jrwren_> yes, async queries can be just as fast as the slowest query.
[22:24] <rick_h_> and everythign is ajax'd as you need it/api calls