| === babaei_ is now known as babaei | ||
| ochosi | knome: R is lts, right? | 08:57 |
|---|---|---|
| ochosi | (mostly cause i'm wondering whether we should do lts releases every two years, instead of once a year) | 08:58 |
| Noskcaj | ochosi: i think it is just every two years, at least for normal ubuntu | 08:59 |
| knome | ochosi, R is not an LTS. | 09:01 |
| knome | ochosi, T is | 09:02 |
| knome | 14.04 | 09:02 |
| ochosi | right, i think i misremembered something from UDS | 09:02 |
| knome | yes, most probably | 09:02 |
| ochosi | was there a definite decision taken at UDS to stick to CD size? | 09:03 |
| knome | since we did that with LTS+1, there's no reason to slip now | 09:03 |
| knome | because we should've done the decision last cycle | 09:03 |
| knome | so we're trying to keep in a CD | 09:04 |
| ochosi | not sure i get that rational | 09:04 |
| ochosi | e | 09:04 |
| knome | well, i'll try to explain | 09:05 |
| knome | LTS's should be our main point of focus, right? | 09:05 |
| ochosi | do you want me to answer rhetorical questions now? :) | 09:05 |
| knome | everything before an LTS is already preparing for the LTS, and 12.10 is preparing for 14.04 | 09:05 |
| knome | so if we are not going to target a CD in 14.04, why did we do that in 12.10? | 09:05 |
| knome | (and use a lot of time, and lost big components) | 09:05 |
| knome | *used | 09:06 |
| knome | well, i suppose that's the rationale | 09:06 |
| knome | and i don't think it's a bad idea, if it's doable | 09:06 |
| ochosi | hm, i see it differently i guess | 09:06 |
| ochosi | everything from 12.10 to 13.10 is a prep for 14.04 | 09:07 |
| ochosi | and gives us time to test things | 09:07 |
| ochosi | last cycle was hectic wrt the decision of dropping stuff | 09:07 |
| ochosi | or dropping cd-size | 09:07 |
| ochosi | this cycle we have more time to review and re-think that | 09:07 |
| ochosi | and also try to ship a different size | 09:07 |
| ochosi | and revert that decision if we find that it was bad | 09:07 |
| knome | if we wanted to postpone the decision, imo we shouldn't have tried to fit a cd | 09:07 |
| knome | i don't know if you think it makes sense | 09:08 |
| knome | but we already did quite a job to stay within the boundaries of a CD | 09:08 |
| knome | why revert now? | 09:08 |
| ochosi | yeah, i don't see any of those decisions as non-revertible for the next cycle | 09:08 |
| knome | and seriously, before 14.04, we're hopefully going to be able to drop some stuff, including python2 | 09:08 |
| knome | yeah. no reason why they aren't | 09:08 |
| ochosi | to bring back some of our default apps to keep them tested, in case we can drop gtk2 and python2 until 14.04 and get everything back "in order" | 09:08 |
| knome | i'm just saying if we are going to go over the CD limit, you need to have a good rationale | 09:09 |
| knome | because for 12.10 we didn't but we lost gnumeric, gimp and languages | 09:09 |
| ochosi | well my point is that we can try 1gb for 13.04 | 09:09 |
| ochosi | we can even label it as an experiment | 09:09 |
| knome | if we are willing to drop those to fit a CD, it must be a damn good reason to go over later :) | 09:10 |
| knome | maybe | 09:10 |
| ochosi | i wouldn't necessarily advise ppl to upgrade every release anyway | 09:10 |
| knome | but that would mean working hard to fit a CD again for 13.10. | 09:10 |
| ochosi | well there are damn good reasons to drop the cd size | 09:10 |
| ochosi | not only for, but also against | 09:10 |
| ochosi | depends, if we find out 1gb is what we want/need to have some "moving space" to stay flexible, that might be our decision | 09:11 |
| knome | maybe | 09:11 |
| knome | we should discuss that more in our meetings/ML so people can chime in | 09:11 |
| ochosi | i just feel we've become highly unflexible | 09:11 |
| knome | feel free to start a thread in the ML | 09:11 |
| ochosi | if 5mb of space is a problem for the icons | 09:11 |
| knome | we've always been at the limits, it's no different this time | 09:11 |
| ochosi | (which would bring an obvious advantage) | 09:12 |
| ochosi | then i feel we've become too inflexible | 09:12 |
| ochosi | it _is_ different | 09:12 |
| knome | from my POV, we can drop another language and still be happy. | 09:12 |
| ochosi | we went over the limits, and that's why we had to drop stuff we never would've thought off | 09:12 |
| ochosi | -f | 09:12 |
| knome | i don't completely agree | 09:12 |
| ochosi | there were tons of folks who said "gimp is too heavy/large for a default install" | 09:13 |
| knome | we've been thinking of dropping gimp in favor of something lighter (nothing good just turned up), and i've been talking about dropping gnumeric too | 09:13 |
| knome | it wasn't a random process to drop those two | 09:13 |
| ochosi | i know that | 09:13 |
| ochosi | i'm just saying i don't like the direction this is going to | 09:13 |
| knome | i can see your point | 09:13 |
| knome | but i can't fully agree with your worry | 09:14 |
| ochosi | being forced to drop apps is fairly different to considering to drop them for usability reasons | 09:14 |
| knome | but i'm open for discussion | 09:14 |
| knome | yes, i acknowledge that | 09:14 |
| Unit193 | When/if it happens, when python2 and gtk2 go, that'll free up loads, no? | 09:14 |
| knome | i would've been fine to drop gimp+gnumeric before too, even without having. just saying :) | 09:14 |
| knome | Unit193, yep | 09:14 |
| ochosi | Unit193: good question, i don't think anyone has done the math on that yet | 09:14 |
| knome | Unit193, at least gtk2 is quite big | 09:15 |
| knome | the math is we gathered >100MB for Q, there can be other stuff as well than python/gtk 2, but those are the big culprits | 09:15 |
| knome | it's really hard to calculate accurate/real numbers without doing test builds | 09:16 |
| ochosi | gtk2 isn't in those 100mb | 09:16 |
| ochosi | we already had that for a few releases | 09:16 |
| ochosi | i mean in combination with gtk3 | 09:16 |
| knome | we need to look at our seed anyway | 09:17 |
| knome | if you have ideas how to proceed, feel free to propose on the ML | 09:18 |
| xnox | what is xfce gtk3 road map like? | 11:14 |
| mr_pouit | post 4.12 | 11:14 |
| mr_pouit | 4.12 will be gseal at best | 11:14 |
| astraljava | gSeal? Gasel? [Steven] Seagull? | 11:16 |
| adnan | :)) | 11:16 |
| astraljava | I put it on a humorous note, but I'm actually curious. | 11:18 |
| mr_pouit | astraljava: to be more gtk+3-ready (drop direct access to some widgets private members that was allowed in older gtk versions) | 11:18 |
| mr_pouit | xnox: http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap/gtk3 | 11:18 |
| astraljava | Oh ok, cool. Thanks! | 11:19 |
| xnox | so is it ~ 1 year cycles, not 6 month cycles. Interesting | 11:22 |
| === davmor2_ is now known as davmor2 | ||
| === holstein_ is now known as holstein | ||
| === scott-work is now known as Guest83303 | ||
| === yofel_ is now known as yofel | ||
| mr_pouit | (fixed xfdesktop4 and alacarte moved to quantal-updates) | 19:18 |
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