=== babaei_ is now known as babaei [08:57] knome: R is lts, right? [08:58] (mostly cause i'm wondering whether we should do lts releases every two years, instead of once a year) [08:59] ochosi: i think it is just every two years, at least for normal ubuntu [09:01] ochosi, R is not an LTS. [09:02] ochosi, T is [09:02] 14.04 [09:02] right, i think i misremembered something from UDS [09:02] yes, most probably [09:03] was there a definite decision taken at UDS to stick to CD size? [09:03] since we did that with LTS+1, there's no reason to slip now [09:03] because we should've done the decision last cycle [09:04] so we're trying to keep in a CD [09:04] not sure i get that rational [09:04] e [09:05] well, i'll try to explain [09:05] LTS's should be our main point of focus, right? [09:05] do you want me to answer rhetorical questions now? :) [09:05] everything before an LTS is already preparing for the LTS, and 12.10 is preparing for 14.04 [09:05] so if we are not going to target a CD in 14.04, why did we do that in 12.10? [09:05] (and use a lot of time, and lost big components) [09:06] *used [09:06] well, i suppose that's the rationale [09:06] and i don't think it's a bad idea, if it's doable [09:06] hm, i see it differently i guess [09:07] everything from 12.10 to 13.10 is a prep for 14.04 [09:07] and gives us time to test things [09:07] last cycle was hectic wrt the decision of dropping stuff [09:07] or dropping cd-size [09:07] this cycle we have more time to review and re-think that [09:07] and also try to ship a different size [09:07] and revert that decision if we find that it was bad [09:07] if we wanted to postpone the decision, imo we shouldn't have tried to fit a cd [09:08] i don't know if you think it makes sense [09:08] but we already did quite a job to stay within the boundaries of a CD [09:08] why revert now? [09:08] yeah, i don't see any of those decisions as non-revertible for the next cycle [09:08] and seriously, before 14.04, we're hopefully going to be able to drop some stuff, including python2 [09:08] yeah. no reason why they aren't [09:08] to bring back some of our default apps to keep them tested, in case we can drop gtk2 and python2 until 14.04 and get everything back "in order" [09:09] i'm just saying if we are going to go over the CD limit, you need to have a good rationale [09:09] because for 12.10 we didn't but we lost gnumeric, gimp and languages [09:09] well my point is that we can try 1gb for 13.04 [09:09] we can even label it as an experiment [09:10] if we are willing to drop those to fit a CD, it must be a damn good reason to go over later :) [09:10] maybe [09:10] i wouldn't necessarily advise ppl to upgrade every release anyway [09:10] but that would mean working hard to fit a CD again for 13.10. [09:10] well there are damn good reasons to drop the cd size [09:10] not only for, but also against [09:11] depends, if we find out 1gb is what we want/need to have some "moving space" to stay flexible, that might be our decision [09:11] maybe [09:11] we should discuss that more in our meetings/ML so people can chime in [09:11] i just feel we've become highly unflexible [09:11] feel free to start a thread in the ML [09:11] if 5mb of space is a problem for the icons [09:11] we've always been at the limits, it's no different this time [09:12] (which would bring an obvious advantage) [09:12] then i feel we've become too inflexible [09:12] it _is_ different [09:12] from my POV, we can drop another language and still be happy. [09:12] we went over the limits, and that's why we had to drop stuff we never would've thought off [09:12] -f [09:12] i don't completely agree [09:13] there were tons of folks who said "gimp is too heavy/large for a default install" [09:13] we've been thinking of dropping gimp in favor of something lighter (nothing good just turned up), and i've been talking about dropping gnumeric too [09:13] it wasn't a random process to drop those two [09:13] i know that [09:13] i'm just saying i don't like the direction this is going to [09:13] i can see your point [09:14] but i can't fully agree with your worry [09:14] being forced to drop apps is fairly different to considering to drop them for usability reasons [09:14] but i'm open for discussion [09:14] yes, i acknowledge that [09:14] When/if it happens, when python2 and gtk2 go, that'll free up loads, no? [09:14] i would've been fine to drop gimp+gnumeric before too, even without having. just saying :) [09:14] Unit193, yep [09:14] Unit193: good question, i don't think anyone has done the math on that yet [09:15] Unit193, at least gtk2 is quite big [09:15] the math is we gathered >100MB for Q, there can be other stuff as well than python/gtk 2, but those are the big culprits [09:16] it's really hard to calculate accurate/real numbers without doing test builds [09:16] gtk2 isn't in those 100mb [09:16] we already had that for a few releases [09:16] i mean in combination with gtk3 [09:17] we need to look at our seed anyway [09:18] if you have ideas how to proceed, feel free to propose on the ML [11:14] what is xfce gtk3 road map like? [11:14] post 4.12 [11:14] 4.12 will be gseal at best [11:16] gSeal? Gasel? [Steven] Seagull? [11:16] :)) [11:18] I put it on a humorous note, but I'm actually curious. [11:18] astraljava: to be more gtk+3-ready (drop direct access to some widgets private members that was allowed in older gtk versions) [11:18] xnox: http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap/gtk3 [11:19] Oh ok, cool. Thanks! [11:22] so is it ~ 1 year cycles, not 6 month cycles. Interesting === davmor2_ is now known as davmor2 === holstein_ is now known as holstein === scott-work is now known as Guest83303 === yofel_ is now known as yofel [19:18] (fixed xfdesktop4 and alacarte moved to quantal-updates)