[08:57] <ochosi> knome: R is lts, right?
[08:58] <ochosi> (mostly cause i'm wondering whether we should do lts releases every two years, instead of once a year)
[08:59] <Noskcaj> ochosi: i think it is just every two years, at least for normal ubuntu
[09:01] <knome> ochosi, R is not an LTS.
[09:02] <knome> ochosi, T is
[09:02] <knome> 14.04
[09:02] <ochosi> right, i think i misremembered something from UDS
[09:02] <knome> yes, most probably
[09:03] <ochosi> was there a definite decision taken at UDS to stick to CD size?
[09:03] <knome> since we did that with LTS+1, there's no reason to slip now
[09:03] <knome> because we should've done the decision last cycle
[09:04] <knome> so we're trying to keep in a CD
[09:04] <ochosi> not sure i get that rational
[09:04] <ochosi> e
[09:05] <knome> well, i'll try to explain
[09:05] <knome> LTS's should be our main point of focus, right?
[09:05] <ochosi> do you want me to answer rhetorical questions now? :)
[09:05] <knome> everything before an LTS is already preparing for the LTS, and 12.10 is preparing for 14.04
[09:05] <knome> so if we are not going to target a CD in 14.04, why did we do that in 12.10?
[09:05] <knome> (and use a lot of time, and lost big components)
[09:06] <knome> *used
[09:06] <knome> well, i suppose that's the rationale
[09:06] <knome> and i don't think it's a bad idea, if it's doable
[09:06] <ochosi> hm, i see it differently i guess
[09:07] <ochosi> everything from 12.10 to 13.10 is a prep for 14.04
[09:07] <ochosi> and gives us time to test things
[09:07] <ochosi> last cycle was hectic wrt the decision of dropping stuff
[09:07] <ochosi> or dropping cd-size
[09:07] <ochosi> this cycle we have more time to review and re-think that
[09:07] <ochosi> and also try to ship a different size
[09:07] <ochosi> and revert that decision if we find that it was bad
[09:07] <knome> if we wanted to postpone the decision, imo we shouldn't have tried to fit a cd
[09:08] <knome> i don't know if you think it makes sense
[09:08] <knome> but we already did quite a job to stay within the boundaries of a CD
[09:08] <knome> why revert now?
[09:08] <ochosi> yeah, i don't see any of those decisions as non-revertible for the next cycle
[09:08] <knome> and seriously, before 14.04, we're hopefully going to be able to drop some stuff, including python2
[09:08] <knome> yeah. no reason why they aren't
[09:08] <ochosi> to bring back some of our default apps to keep them tested, in case we can drop gtk2 and python2 until 14.04 and get everything back "in order"
[09:09] <knome> i'm just saying if we are going to go over the CD limit, you need to have a good rationale
[09:09] <knome> because for 12.10 we didn't but we lost gnumeric, gimp and languages
[09:09] <ochosi> well my point is that we can try 1gb for 13.04
[09:09] <ochosi> we can even label it as an experiment
[09:10] <knome> if we are willing to drop those to fit a CD, it must be a damn good reason to go over later :)
[09:10] <knome> maybe
[09:10] <ochosi> i wouldn't necessarily advise ppl to upgrade every release anyway
[09:10] <knome> but that would mean working hard to fit a CD again for 13.10.
[09:10] <ochosi> well there are damn good reasons to drop the cd size
[09:10] <ochosi> not only for, but also against
[09:11] <ochosi> depends, if we find out 1gb is what we want/need to have some "moving space" to stay flexible, that might be our decision
[09:11] <knome> maybe
[09:11] <knome> we should discuss that more in our meetings/ML so people can chime in
[09:11] <ochosi> i just feel we've become highly unflexible
[09:11] <knome> feel free to start a thread in the ML
[09:11] <ochosi> if 5mb of space is a problem for the icons
[09:11] <knome> we've always been at the limits, it's no different this time
[09:12] <ochosi> (which would bring an obvious advantage)
[09:12] <ochosi> then i feel we've become too inflexible
[09:12] <ochosi> it _is_ different
[09:12] <knome> from my POV, we can drop another language and still be happy.
[09:12] <ochosi> we went over the limits, and that's why we had to drop stuff we never would've thought off
[09:12] <ochosi> -f
[09:12] <knome> i don't completely agree
[09:13] <ochosi> there were tons of folks who said "gimp is too heavy/large for a default install"
[09:13] <knome> we've been thinking of dropping gimp in favor of something lighter (nothing good just turned up), and i've been talking about dropping gnumeric too
[09:13] <knome> it wasn't a random process to drop those two
[09:13] <ochosi> i know that
[09:13] <ochosi> i'm just saying i don't like the direction this is going to
[09:13] <knome> i can see your point
[09:14] <knome> but i can't fully agree with your worry
[09:14] <ochosi> being forced to drop apps is fairly different to considering to drop them for usability reasons
[09:14] <knome> but i'm open for discussion
[09:14] <knome> yes, i acknowledge that
[09:14] <Unit193> When/if it happens, when python2 and gtk2 go, that'll free up loads, no?
[09:14] <knome> i would've been fine to drop gimp+gnumeric before too, even without having. just saying :)
[09:14] <knome> Unit193, yep
[09:14] <ochosi> Unit193: good question, i don't think anyone has done the math on that yet
[09:15] <knome> Unit193, at least gtk2 is quite big
[09:15] <knome> the math is we gathered >100MB for Q, there can be other stuff as well than python/gtk 2, but those are the big culprits
[09:16] <knome> it's really hard to calculate accurate/real numbers without doing test builds
[09:16] <ochosi> gtk2 isn't in those 100mb
[09:16] <ochosi> we already had that for a few releases
[09:16] <ochosi> i mean in combination with gtk3
[09:17] <knome> we need to look at our seed anyway
[09:18] <knome> if you have ideas how to proceed, feel free to propose on the ML
[11:14] <xnox> what is xfce gtk3 road map like?
[11:14] <mr_pouit> post 4.12
[11:14] <mr_pouit> 4.12 will be gseal at best
[11:16] <astraljava> gSeal? Gasel? [Steven] Seagull?
[11:16] <adnan> :))
[11:18] <astraljava> I put it on a humorous note, but I'm actually curious.
[11:18] <mr_pouit> astraljava: to be more gtk+3-ready (drop direct access to some widgets private members that was allowed in older gtk versions)
[11:18] <mr_pouit> xnox: http://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap/gtk3
[11:19] <astraljava> Oh ok, cool. Thanks!
[11:22] <xnox> so is it ~ 1 year cycles, not 6 month cycles. Interesting
[19:18] <mr_pouit> (fixed xfdesktop4 and alacarte moved to quantal-updates)