[01:15] <krabador> hi people, i need help to install nvidia-173 on ubuntu 12.10
[09:05] <diplo> Morning all
[09:05] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:08] <BigRedS> morning!
[09:12] <czajkowski> BigRedS: hey hows things?
[09:13] <mungojerry> does anyone use ubuntu one on android for uploading pictures they take? seems to disable itself a lot.
[09:13] <czajkowski> mungojerry: I do
[09:13] <mungojerry> do you have that problem often?
[09:13] <czajkowski> not had an isue tbh.
[09:13] <mungojerry> :(
[09:13] <czajkowski> I get the odd fail image but then I retry an it's fine
[09:13] <mungojerry> every time i check, it asked me to login
[09:13] <czajkowski> usually due to me forgetting I've left a wifi location and not have my mobile data on
[09:14] <czajkowski> mungojerry: ahh that's an issue I used to have one but couldnt replicate it to log the bug
[09:14] <czajkowski> the nice folks in #ubuntuone will help though
[09:14] <mungojerry> thx will give them a try later
[09:19] <popey> mungojerry, u1 files crashes regularly for me
[09:20] <popey> but I suspect it's not the same issue as you, given I'm running it on iOS
[09:34] <JamesTait> Good morning, Angels! :-D
[09:35] <christel> morning <3
[09:35] <christel> czajkowski: hows hampshire treating you
[09:35] <czajkowski> christel: back in london
[09:35] <christel> !
[09:35] <czajkowski> hoping to head down later if I feel human, have awful head cold
[09:35] <christel> aww
[09:35] <czajkowski> we got back late last night from guildford
[09:35]  * christel hugs czajkowski 
[09:41] <jacobw2> morning ubunteros
[09:43] <BigRedS> czajkowski: good, bit busy especiallyt for this time of morning. you?
[09:43] <czajkowski> BigRedS: busy alright, only me on for my tz atm so it's interesting :)
[09:43] <czajkowski> jacobw2: https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/272826
[09:47] <czajkowski> BigRedS: how goes the move?
[09:47] <czajkowski> christel: never fear I'll be down soon! then you won't be able to get rid of me
[09:48] <czajkowski> christel: shall be gone from the 12th till end of december though :)
[09:49] <BigRedS> czajkowski: I think
[09:49] <BigRedS> I've a flat for a few months from about february
[09:49] <czajkowski> cool
[09:52] <christel> czajkowski: tsK! we should meet up before then
[09:54] <czajkowski> definately
[09:56] <jacobw2> BigRedS: \o/
[09:56] <BigRedS> yeah, should be good
[09:57] <bigcalm> Zort
[10:46] <brobostigon> good morning everyone.
[10:49] <dwatkins> hiya brobostigon
[10:49] <dwatkins> I hope we were able to help out the person wanting to install MineTest yesterday
[10:49] <brobostigon> hiya dwatkins
[10:50] <brobostigon> dwatkins: no sure, i was trying to get the server end working properly, and didnt properly. so went to bed, and tackling it again as we speak.
[11:07] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:20] <p> nick PeteB
[11:40] <selinuxium> morning all   o/
[11:40] <BigRedS> G'morning!
[11:40] <selinuxium> Hey BigRedS! You back in metro central?
[11:41] <bigcalm> Morning slackers :)
[11:42] <davmor2> bigcalm: why are you a slacker
[11:42] <selinuxium> bigcalm, I think you just admitted to joining in...
[11:43] <selinuxium> :)
[11:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> Good news! Wifey's car just passed MoT with nothing wrong! We were expecting a big bill... £39 is fine and dandy by me.
[11:44] <TheOpenSourcerer> Morning all btw
[11:44] <selinuxium> Good morning TheOpenSourcerer
[11:45] <diplo> I had the same luck with mine TheOpenSourcerer
[11:45] <wayne__> hi all, anybody here help me with a problem with mythtv?
[11:45] <diplo> Was expecting a huge bill and they said it passed, my response was 'really?'
[11:45] <BigRedS> selinuxium: nah, back in marchish I think
[11:45] <TheOpenSourcerer> Who watched England trounce the All Blacks on Saturday? What a fantastic game.
[11:45] <czajkowski> wayne__: just ask and if folks cna help they will
[11:45] <wayne__> cheers
[11:46] <selinuxium> TheOpenSourcerer, Sadly I missed it.. But was having a lovely day with my daughter...
[11:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> czajkowski: Went to Farnham RFC this Sat to watch the big match.
[11:46] <selinuxium> I was at Twickenham for the SA game#
[11:46] <TheOpenSourcerer> Nice.
[11:47] <wayne__> Anybody seen this error message in mythtv "Cold not connect to the master backend server, Is it running? Is the ip address set for it in myth-setup correct?"
[11:47] <selinuxium> TheOpenSourcerer, Corporate box, Champagne breakfast... Free Guinness all day...
[11:47] <TheOpenSourcerer> Wow. That's great selinuxium - work?
[11:48] <popey> morning TheOpenSourcerer
[11:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> lo popey
[11:48] <selinuxium> TheOpenSourcerer, yup... Well. a supplier helping to reward our loyalty..
[11:48] <TheOpenSourcerer> How was your glazed pork?
[11:49] <directhex> wayne__, it's a pretty common error in myth
[11:49] <czajkowski> TheOpenSourcerer: selinuxium https://twitter.com/RugBizNetwork
[11:50] <wayne__> directhex: any clues on how i sort it? the back & front end are on the same box
[11:50] <TheOpenSourcerer> czajkowski: Thanks for that. Duly followed.
[11:51] <selinuxium> czajkowski, likewise
[11:52] <TheOpenSourcerer> Wish I'd have had a bet on England. Odds were 16:1 before the game. (But I don't really gamble so it would have been unlikely for me to bet at all)
[11:55] <selinuxium> Anybody here use munin?
[11:55] <dwatkins> selinuxium: me
[11:55] <popey> TheOpenSourcerer, pretty good, still some left over for sarnies
[11:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> :-)
[11:56] <selinuxium> dwatkins, when you do a ps aux|grep munin do you only see the munin-node
[11:56] <TheOpenSourcerer> I have chicken Jalfrezi for lunch
[11:56] <selinuxium> The lunch of champions!
[11:56] <dwatkins> selinuxium: yeah, the other processes run via cron, I think
[12:02] <bigcalm> davmor2: selinuxium: I'm as much a slacker as the next irc user ;)
[12:05] <dwatkins> I'm a complete slacker today, thanks to having the week off and having an annoying cold still.
[12:32] <brianb> hi having problems with 12.10 live cd will boot but crashes with all lines on screen is there any work round with boot commands?
[12:40] <dwatkins> What kind of graphics card do you have in the machine, brianb?
[12:41] <brianb> its a old laptop
[12:41] <brianb> 12.04 works ok
[12:42] <dwatkins> perhaps the gfx card is no longer supported, is it on the hardware compatability list?
[12:42] <brianb> i dont know
[12:42] <brianb> is there any boot commands i can try
[12:46] <dwatkins> I'm not sure, did you try the alternative CD as well? That has additional drivers.
[12:46] <brianb> what is the alternative cd?
[12:47] <dwatkins> oh, I appear to have mis-typed - that disc has been discontinued, sorry
[12:47] <brianb> so does 12.1 contain limited drivers then?
[12:47] <dwatkins> is there an option to boot into text mode?
[12:48] <dwatkins> then at least you can find out (with 'lspci' or 'lspci -v') what kind of graphics card you have.
[12:48] <brianb> i have 12.1 DVD from linux format and ubuntu users
[12:49] <brianb> there is none on the dvd supplied by ubuntu users
[12:49] <brianb> but can edit the boot line on the linux format version of ubuntu 12.1
[12:49] <AlanBell> what laptop?
[12:49] <dwatkins> I assume that's 12.10, not that there's any mathematical difference ;)
[12:50] <davmor2> dwatkins: the live and alternate cds both contain the same drivers.
[12:50] <dwatkins> davmor2: ah ok, I was wrong to begin with
[12:51] <brianb> its may old laptop that we lookes at the other night re the adobe flash player AlanBell
[12:51] <dwatkins> https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/installation-guide/i386/hardware-supported.html might help, but we'd probably need to know the model of laptop and/or card
[12:52] <AlanBell> ok, so that is the one with the S3 unichrome graphics
[12:53] <brianb> yes Alan
[12:55] <AlanBell> so 12.10 is going to want it to do 3d compositing
[12:55] <AlanBell> 12.04 with unity 2d might have worked fine, but in 12.10 it will probably expose all the bugs
[13:01] <brianb> ok so 12.04 will be the last ubuntu version that will work with this old laptop then
[13:02] <AlanBell> could be
[13:02] <AlanBell> that means it will get updates until 2017
[13:07] <brianb> so is there a major difference between version 12.04 & 12.1?
[13:07] <brianb> sorry 12.1
[13:09] <directhex> 12.10
[13:10] <AlanBell> .10 being October, .04 being April
[13:10] <AlanBell> hardly any difference at all between 12.04 and 12.10
[13:11] <bigcalm> More bugs? ;)
[13:11] <AlanBell> fewer unity bugs
[13:13] <brianb> i will try ubuntu 12.1 on a more modern laptop with a dual core i5 and HD display
[13:14] <directhex> 12.10 supports UEFI secure boot, and has a newer infrastructure for online accounts. those are the big ones i noticed
[13:14] <brianb> that laptop is 2 years old
[13:15] <brianb> so that should rule out memory and the graphics capabilities
[13:15] <dw4tkins> What model is it, brianb?
[13:15] <brianb> its a MSI laptop
[13:16] <dw4tkins> do you have the exact model number?
[13:16] <brianb> got a large dsplay
[13:17] <brianb> CR 720
[13:18] <brianb> model nr ms-1736
[13:19] <selinuxium> Hmmm... just found an old Jaunty install... You can't do a do-release-upgrade from Jaunty to Lucid..
[13:19] <selinuxium> What would the best way forward be?
[13:19] <brianb> the sound will be an issue on this laptop
[13:20] <dw4tkins> http://www.msiwhitebook.com/product_spec.asp?model=MS-1736-ID1 - doesn't seem to have any particularly outlandish hardware
[13:20] <AlanBell> selinuxium: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades
[13:20] <selinuxium> Cheeers AlanBell
[13:22] <brianb> so in all accounts 12.1 should work on this msi laptop\?
[13:23] <dw4tkins> brianb: without knowing the specific details of the chip used in the graphics card, I can't really say
[13:24] <dw4tkins> I guess if you can find out what it has and check the hardware compatability list for 12.04 and 12.10, you might know more
[13:24] <brianb> ok fair enough i will try 12.1 in a live mode and see if i can get it to work
[13:24] <AlanBell> brianb: 12.10 will work just fine on that core i5 laptop
[13:25] <AlanBell> it has intel graphics which just work
[13:25] <brianb> ok thanks
[13:30] <selinuxium> AlanBell, https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades/Jaunty doesn't work and also, doesn't look right..
[13:31] <AlanBell> selinuxium: clean install of Raring? (or Quantal if not feeling brave)
[13:32] <selinuxium> AlanBell, sorry... what I am getting at is the instructions say to use a jaunty sources.list doing so would change nothing... or am I completely off track?
[13:34] <AlanBell> erm, I think the instructions are right, changing it to old-releases but leaving it pointing to Jaunty, then doing the upgrade which will change them
[13:35] <selinuxium> nope... it still tries to change the jaunty to lucid...
[13:37] <AlanBell> http://askubuntu.com/questions/34430/can-i-skip-over-releases/135028#135028 you did that bit?
[13:38] <AlanBell> tweaking the meta-release file?
[13:38] <AlanBell> making a hacked downloadable meta-release file
[13:39] <AlanBell> you don't have to do that on your local host, you could point it at the file somewhere else
[13:50] <selinuxium> AlanBell, Suffering with blindness it seems...
[13:50] <selinuxium> AlanBell, all sorted and learnt a little more about how apt works.. :)
[14:25] <brianb> Alan Ball i understand that according to the ubuntu user that ubuntu tv seeks volunteers
[14:27] <bigcalm> popey: any worries that Twitter will accuse you of running a fake-pope account? ;)
[14:27] <brianb> lol
[14:28] <AlanBell> bigcalm: I think popey has a stronger claim to reality
[14:28] <popey> hah
[14:28] <bigcalm> AlanBell: Haha
[14:28] <popey> well i missed a trick given my company name is pontifex
[14:28] <popey> should have registered that twitter account
[14:28] <AlanBell> yeah, I was surprised you didn't have it
[14:28] <brianb> all paths and links lead to the Vatican
[14:28] <davmor2> AlanBell: put the computer down move away from the keyboard slowly, Don't forget I'm not down south now to fix your messes ;)
[14:28] <popey> never needed it
[14:28] <AlanBell> I am sure you could have traded it for a couple of michelangelos
[14:29] <brianb> AlanBell did you see my comment re the ubuntu tv?
[14:30] <AlanBell> !tab | brianb
[14:30] <AlanBell> nope :)
[14:31] <AlanBell> they probably are looking for volunteers, dunno what for though
[14:32] <brianb> the three areas quoted are 1 re-creating the TV user interface using Nux toolkit
[14:33] <brianb> 2 integrating Myth TV back end into the TV UI
[14:34] <directhex> another new toolkit!
[14:34] <AlanBell> oh, they settled on mythtv now, interesting
[14:35] <brianb> 3. Researching and finalizing the hardware and acceleration of GStreamer video sinks for NVidia, Intel and AMD graphics cards
[14:35] <AlanBell> why on earth would they want to support all those?
[14:35] <brianb> thats according to the artical in the latest ubuntu user
[14:36] <brianb> http://www.doadjustyourset.com/
[14:37] <directhex> they should clearly outsource their gstreamer hacking to a company with expertise in it
[14:37] <brianb> the link is for more info on the ununtu tv project
[14:38] <AlanBell> does this mean canonical have given up on it as a commercial project pitched to OEMs?
[14:38] <popey> no
[14:38] <brianb> so is the TV  irc channel related to the community work they are talking about?
[14:38] <popey> yes
[14:39] <davmor2> popey: can you answer a question using more than one word?
[14:39] <popey> depends
[14:39] <AlanBell> brianb: I kind of stopped following that project some time ago, I knew they were rewriting some unity 2d bits in 3d (that is the NUX stuff)
[14:40] <AlanBell> I was expecting it to end up on an ARM platform with a pandaboard as reference hardware or something
[14:40] <brianb> only allowed 140 chr per tweet to the hash tag popey at Vatican
[14:41] <davmor2> popey: Classy answer :)
[14:42] <brianb> so what direction is ubuntu TV going in?
[14:42] <popey> AlanBell, it makes more sense to make it possible to run it on stuff people actually have
[14:43] <brianb> it would seem that ubuntu TV is try to go down the road of apple TV etc from what i understand from the article
[14:43] <AlanBell> it does, I think it is a good idea, it just surprises me
[14:43] <popey> much easier to hack on a desktop/laptop where we know the core works
[14:43] <einonm> I've not followed the ubuntuTV project that closely, but they do seem to suffer from a lack of a hardware platform
[14:43] <popey> we have other plans for arm (e.g. n7)
[14:44] <popey> so it's not like arm dev is unloved
[14:45] <AlanBell> yeah, I was just expecting TV to be built towards a settop box or internal board in a telly, at the expense of everything else
[14:45] <popey> but we don't have anything to put _in_ that device yet
[14:45] <AlanBell> if it is a generic mythtv front end then that is quite interesting
[14:45] <einonm> AlanBell: are there actually any HW engineers on the team to do that?
[14:45] <popey> we don't make hardware
[14:46] <einonm> popey: yes, but in the TV world, you're up against others with dedicated hardware, which is cheaper and more suited to the task. If you're going to enter that market, you have to play by the rules
[14:47] <einonm> ..or team up with someone that does
[14:47] <popey> i didn't say we wouldn't
[14:47] <popey> just that we don't make the hardware
[14:47] <popey> that's not new news :)
[14:48] <einonm> is there any public knowledge about who you're teaming up with, if anyone? :o)
[14:49] <brianb> what would be good is to have an open source version like the BBC iplayer which allows various content to be accessed over the net in a format that allows to catch up but Digital Rights issues could be a problem
[14:50] <brianb> well it wont be apple for sure
[14:50] <brianb> what about Sony?
[14:50] <einonm> brianb: It's a nice idea, but I think there doesn't exist any content owners who would give up free access to the content.
[14:50] <einonm> Sony own their own content, hardware and distro channels.
[14:50] <einonm> same as sky
[14:50] <brianb> not without having some payperview
[14:51] <popey> einonm, not that I know of
[14:52] <brianb> well if you take the BBC radio player app - it does allow you to select commerical as well as BBC radio content
[14:52] <einonm> popey: Fair enough. its not the sort of info that gets shared easily, even if there were some
[14:52] <popey> indeed
[14:52] <dwatkins> is the iPlayer app open source?
[14:52] <AlanBell> nope
[14:52] <dwatkins> didn't think so
[14:52] <brianb> no
[14:53] <brianb> its brilliant technology
[14:54] <brianb> i watch all my tv viewing on the iplayer app on my apple tablet
[14:54] <mungojerry> anyone try using 40d?
[14:54] <brianb> its so slective
[14:54] <mungojerry> wife says that some shows don't work at all
[14:54] <mungojerry> watch 7 adverts then no programme e.g. freshmeat series 2
[14:54] <dwatkins> my only issue with iPlayer is that a week is sometimes not long enough to watch a show, other than that it's superb.
[14:55] <brianb> i can select what i want to watch and when up to seven days also can now download for up to a month
[14:55] <dwatkins> ah ok, that at least makes the retention time less of an issue, brianb
[14:56] <brianb> that download feature is avaible on the iplayer app on the apple
[14:56] <brianb> i dont know if its available on the pc version
[14:56] <directhex> i await tvii, personally
[14:56] <dwatkins> brianb: it is, my mum uses it as they have a slow internet connection
[14:57] <directhex> the wiiu's software is hopelessly unfinished, but tvii has enormous promise
[14:57] <brianb> the BBC iplayer is one of the best things the BBC has developed in the last 20 years
[14:57] <popey> mungojerry, i have seen that happen too, when I was in copenhagen
[14:58] <mungojerry> popey, i've tried on multiple machines
[14:58] <brianb> the itv and CH4 player is not so good
[14:58] <popey> mungojerry, a friend of mine works for the company and said it is a known issue depending on which content delivery network the load balancer sends you to
[14:58] <mungojerry> :(
[14:58] <mungojerry> the adverts always work, strange that
[14:58] <popey> they come from a different network
[14:58] <mungojerry> series 1 always works too
[14:59] <mungojerry> so it's nothign client side
[14:59] <mungojerry> i should try on my work pc
[14:59] <mgdm> anyone played with a YouView yet, out of interest?
[14:59] <popey> yup, as I said, backend issue
[14:59] <mungojerry> shame there's nothing like iplayer_dl for 4od
[14:59] <popey> yeah, its a shame the guy who made get_iplayer ripped out all the itv and 4od stuff
[14:59] <brianb> lol
[15:01] <mungojerry> maybe they will all work after chrimstas
[15:01] <mungojerry> when everyone has bought dvds
[15:01] <einonm> mdgm: YouView is basically freeview with a backwards EPG for the iplayer stuff.
[15:01] <popey> people _buy_ dvds?
[15:01] <mungojerry> what's the other option?
[15:01] <directhex> paupers without 3d blu-rays do
[15:01] <mgdm> einonm: I know exactly what it is, I helped write an app for it
[15:01] <directhex> peasants.
[15:01]  * AlanBell sticks to VHS
[15:02] <einonm> mgdm: cool :)
[15:02] <directhex> youview smells like a rebadged bt vision
[15:02] <popey> i adopted a policy from a friend
[15:02] <mungojerry> no physical media inhouse?
[15:02] <popey> "If I'm not going to watch this DVD more than 3 times in my life, I won't buy it"
[15:02] <directhex> and bt vision was pointless since it doesn't help with bad freeview reception issues
[15:02] <popey> I rarely buy them anymore
[15:02] <mgdm> directhex: quite the opposite; BT Vision are taking on YouView instead of their old platform
[15:02] <mungojerry> i adopted another policy : keep wife happy, have a happy household
[15:02] <directhex> mgdm, can i use youview over pure iptv, with no antenna plugged in?
[15:02] <mgdm> No
[15:03] <mungojerry> i never watch a film more than once, except for french ones and star wars and indiana jones
[15:03] <mgdm> well, you *can*, but all you'll get is the catchup players
[15:03] <mungojerry> hence i don't buy the cds
[15:03] <directhex> then i don't see the point
[15:03] <mungojerry> dvd
[15:03] <daubers> popey: I buy DVD's instead of going to the cinema for most things
[15:03] <mungojerry> +1
[15:03] <daubers> (Normally when they're <£5)
[15:03] <directhex> i already have video on demand, via lovefilm or the xbox and playstation video stores
[15:03] <directhex> i already have poor freeview reception
[15:04] <directhex> and i can even do recording if i plug na usb disk into my tv
[15:04] <directhex> so youview gains me nothing
[15:05]  * TheOpenSourcerer loves the iPlayer built into his Samsung TV. Watched "The Killing 5 & 6" last night.
[15:05] <directhex> TheOpenSourcerer, yeah, we use that all the time..... but i'm excited for tvii
[15:06] <popey> yeah, we use iplayer on the virgin box all the time
[15:06] <popey> and ipad in bed
[15:07] <brianb> i can see eventually the normal method of tv delivery of off-air reception using tv transmission system becoming a thing of the past with high speed internet access and 4 or 5G mobile phones
[15:07] <brianb> TV has become more portable with tablets and phones
[15:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> Considering we are still on crappy old ADSL 2 (~3.5Mb) iPlayer works amazingly well. Two hours last night, no buffering whatsoever. (Not in HD though).
[15:08] <directhex> i wish streaming services did really really HD HD.
[15:08] <directhex> e.g. iPlayer HD is super low bitrate
[15:08] <directhex> compared to optical media
[15:08] <directhex> i hate macroblocking
[15:09] <einonm> brianb: the difference between IPTV and broadcast is that the current broadcast methods are extremely reliable, and IPTV is not as good. So I don't see cable/terrestrial/satellite TV going just yet
[15:09] <brianb> the only possible proble is if tthe isp's adopt a 2-tire internet making users like the BBC pay to stream their content and if the dont pay they will slow down the delivery
[15:10] <brianb> granted but the cost to broadcasters to maintane a terrestrial are high compared to IPTV
[15:11] <directhex> the precious airwaves could be used for more overpriced mobile internet packages!
[15:11] <brianb> im talking in about 20 years time
[15:11] <einonm> ..but they control the delivery system, and can charge what they like for it. Not so with the internet
[15:13] <brianb> well there is talk about a 5G network using existing TV frequencies that will mean all freeview and HD version changing frequency and another retuning if and when 5G gets rolled out
[15:13] <popey> also, i want all my systems to have remotes like my xbmc one ripped from a boxee
[15:13] <popey> :(
[15:14] <davmor2> popey: you should see the one that came with one of tescos tv's
[15:14] <brianb> the ISP control the flow of the internet so they can charge whatever they like
[15:14] <czajkowski> does anyone remember the name of the person who did the presentation at UDS about the bug stats?
[15:15] <einonm> ..but ISPs  don't own content. They can't profit from buying content from others.
[15:16] <davmor2> popey: it doesn't show the remote but the description gives a clue http://www.tesco.com/direct/technika-22-212i-22-inch-widescreen-hd-ready-smart-lcd-tv-dvd-combi-with-freeview/213-9399.prd?pageLevel=&skuId=213-9399
[15:16] <brianb> if BT wanted to say push there IPTV then they only have to create a 2-tier system imposing a Charge on the BBC that could have a major impact for the iplayer
[15:16] <brianb> content is owned by the broadcasters
[15:17] <popey> i just repeatedly failed to type qwerty successfully :S
[15:17] <directhex> net neutrality!
[15:17] <brianb> thats the issue
[15:17] <einonm> ...broadcasters that already have their own delivery systems, like sky. They would just price their offering cheaper.
[15:18] <brianb> there delivery system is via satellite
[15:18] <einonm> mind you, I think whatever myspace is called there days is giving IPTV only delivery a good go.
[15:18] <einonm> there = these
[15:18] <brianb> and what happened to the satellite version of the internet?
[15:19] <mgdm> it's still there, it's just expensive and latent
[15:19] <directhex> satellite internet works fine*
[15:19] <directhex> (* high bandwidth, high latency, high cost)
[15:20] <brianb> anyway im sure the government with eventual have their say on the internet
[15:20] <directhex> it's pretty much one way, so you send data over dialup, and receive it over satellite, both of which are high latency links
[15:21] <diplo> My dad up until recently had to send his drawings to navy ships out at sea, they use a type of Satelite system but dad said it was really slow
[15:21] <brianb> and very costly i bet they charge on bandwith uasge
[15:22] <AlanBell> well there is a big difference between latency and speed
[15:22] <brianb> thousands of pounds per kb
[15:22] <einonm> I would guess that navy ships would use their own military satellites for that sort of thing?
[15:22] <diplo> I think they preffered faxes at the time, was a few years ago I guess
[15:23] <diplo> einonm: Yeah they do, still not fast though
[15:23] <brianb> its very costly
[15:23] <brianb> and slow
[15:23] <brianb> thats why they are going back to HF comms using a digital version
[15:25] <shauno> sats are a whole lot cheaper than you'd think.  but a whole lot more expensive than we're used to.  20USD/MB isn't unreasonable, and then gets cheaper the more you commit to
[15:26] <brianb> not for the navy
[15:29] <directhex> AlanBell, indeed. can't beat the bandwidth of a lorry filled with mag tapes!
[15:29] <brianb> lol
[15:29] <brianb> can you still get VHS tapes?
[15:31] <einonm> directhex: not even by IP over carrier pigeons? :)
[15:31] <brianb> well in 5 years time we have roll up TV screens, flexable electronics made from graphine transistors and chips
[15:32] <directhex> einonm, oh, that's something someone tested once
[15:32] <einonm> yes, didn't the pigeons win?
[15:32] <directhex> http://hothardware.com/News/Homing-Pigeon-Faster-Than-Internet-in-Data-Transfer/
[15:33] <brianb> well they could not deciper that WW2 message from the remains of the carrier pigeon
[15:34] <mungojerry> there's a reason for that
[15:34] <mungojerry> without the one-time pad, it's meaningless
[15:34] <einonm> wow, faster and more secure - homing pigeons FTW
[15:35] <brianb> i think they are looking for another Alen turning
[15:36] <brianb> so all the super computer at there disposal and they could not crack that message
[15:37] <mungojerry> well it's the same as me agreeing with you and you only what the message "chips egg walrus monkey" means
[15:38] <einonm> How much does bird seed cost compared to BT line rental these days?
[15:40] <shauno> I'm not sure cost is the only consideration.  seed is also vendor agnostic, reducing single points of failure
[15:40] <brianb> well its probably a magical mystery   tour - i am the walrus
[15:43] <einonm> plus contention on the medium might get a bit messy
[15:43] <brianb> given that bird seed is quite cheap and each type of seed has different kernel shapes then the data encryption per seed husk kernel would yeild a high rate
[15:44] <brianb> hence reducing single point failure due to high redundancy
[15:46] <brianb> anyway what does ubuntu 13.04 have to offer
[15:47] <brianb> see that some stuff is going to be secret
[15:48] <popey> well, one less thing is secret now :) http://voices.canonical.com/jussi.pakkanen/2012/12/03/introducing-libcolumbus-a-fast-online-approximate-matching-library/
[15:50] <brianb> whats that popey?
[15:50] <popey> its a blog post
[15:50] <brianb> i cant open it at present
[15:51] <brianb> so what the community views on this secrecy ny ubuntu?
[15:52] <brianb> by...
[15:53] <brianb> is ubuntu trying to become another apple or MS?
[15:53] <popey> what secrecy are you talking about?
[15:55] <brianb> according to an article only certain developers of the ubuntu community will be privy to some new projects
[15:56] <popey> thats nothing new
[15:56] <brianb> as it always been like that then?
[15:56] <popey> its the same for many projects in many companies
[15:57] <popey> developers do some work to prove a concept is sound, or rough out a basic app/library, then announce it
[15:57] <popey> its private till it's announced
[15:57] <brianb> isee
[16:01] <popey> what's changed is that mark shuttleworth suggested that it might be a good idea for certain trusted developers in the community to be involved in some of these new projects early on
[16:02] <popey> which was interpreted as "we're doing loads more secret stuff you can't see"
[16:02] <popey> when it actually meant "we'd like more people to see the secret stuff"
[16:02] <SuperMatt> I never understood how it was interpreted like that
[16:02] <popey> people are dumb
[16:02] <popey> and mark wrote his post in a hurry
[16:02] <SuperMatt> I read it, seemed a little confused, and then read it again
[16:02] <SuperMatt> on second read, it was perfectly clear
[16:03] <SuperMatt> anyone who only reads a source once doesn't deserve to be a journalist
[16:03] <brianb> i thought that maybe with the various comments over the new dash desktop that appeared in version 11 onwards that maybe this is the reason why a more secretively approach has been adopted
[16:03] <SuperMatt> and any editor that published it without reading the source doesn't deserve to be an editor
[16:03] <popey> part of the secrecy is the "big reveal"
[16:06] <brianb> I can understand that Canonical the company will want to keep the wraps on certain stuff that has a high commercial valve
[16:06] <brianb> value....
[16:07] <BigRedS> well, and you normally wait until something works before 'open sourcing' it anyway
[16:08] <brianb> what surprises me is the very large number of IRC channels that ubuntu have compared to other distros
[16:10] <mungojerry> proportional to community size
[16:10] <dogmatic69> ye, was just going to say its because its much bigger than most distros
[16:12] <brianb> so must be a big community then
[16:19]  * BigRedS is clearly too simple for Impress
[16:19] <BigRedS> I think I'm going to use MS Paint for this...
[16:19] <mungojerry> has anyone made a handouts for a talk, instead of presentation slides, and would like to share the design?
[16:20] <mungojerry> want something that looks really nice
[16:20] <mungojerry> for powerpoint style handout
[16:20] <czajkowski> mungojerry: looked at spread ubuntu
[16:20] <czajkowski> http://spreadubuntu.org/
[16:21] <mungojerry> czajkowski, i mean any talk  - i have to do a talk at work and they said no projector, handout only,
[16:21] <mungojerry> and i wondered if there's anything that can really wow
[16:22] <czajkowski> mungojerry: yes there are leaflets on there
[16:22] <popey> mungojerry, scribus has some templates
[16:22] <bokjhv> Hi Guys .. Just Feelin AWESOME atmo.  !!
[16:22] <BigRedS> mungojerry: I'd guess it depends on the nature of the talk, really
[16:22] <popey> maybe a 3 fold type thing?
[16:23] <mungojerry> i thinking 5 pages, 5 lines on each page, text heavy bit like an average ppt talk. no graphics
[16:23] <AlanBell> mungojerry: does powerpoint have a layout for handouts that Impress doesn't?
[16:23]  * AlanBell hasn't really used powerpoint after office 2000
[16:23] <mungojerry> well when i print them, it looks so bad
[16:23] <bokjhv> popey, I wondered where you got that post for OTEN earlier .. Qu.1 , Where ? Qu.2 Posted it before ?
[16:24] <popey> maybe you could be cunning, just give out pieces of paper containing QR codes :)
[16:24] <mungojerry> wondering if thre's a really cool design for text heavy handouts i could use
[16:24] <popey> bokjhv, hmm?
[16:24] <mungojerry> maybe latex :P
[16:24] <bokjhv> OTEN .. your google plus youtube video post .. crowdfunded project ?
[16:25] <popey> just an a4 page with a giant QR code on for each person, unique to each participant which takes them to a URL where your ppt is :)
[16:25] <AlanBell> bokjhv: scam/joke by the look of it
[16:25] <popey> bokjhv, http://www.otonx.com/ is where I saw it
[16:25] <bokjhv> yeah , but was it posted on a website .. or did you just trip over it on youtube ??
[16:25] <bokjhv> oh Ok
[16:25] <bokjhv> thanx.
[16:25] <popey> hah, they've disabled comments on yt now
[16:26] <popey> bokjhv, can't remember, why?
[16:26] <bokjhv> AlanBell, Did you get some coins for petty cash from IoM recently ?
[16:26] <AlanBell> oh, they are claiming it is Ubuntu based
[16:26] <AlanBell> bokjhv: no :( I got an envelope this morning with a nice note in it and a £1 sized cut in the corner, some postie gave themselves a tip
[16:27] <AlanBell> but never mind
[16:27] <bokjhv> damn .. I'll send a fiver in a cash bag next time .. poo.
[16:28] <bokjhv> £5 note obviuosly ;)
[16:28] <bokjhv> I think we have stirling out of the hole in the wall next to the Terminal
[16:29] <AlanBell> gosh, princess Katie has a bun in the oven
[16:29] <bokjhv> Terminal being the sea Terminal not a hacking scam .. although it's where most of my hackathon trips have begun ;)
[16:30] <bokjhv> Must resist lookinf=g at Alan's gnewsense tree webcam ,... must resist.
[16:32] <bokjhv> AlanBell, The LUG in IoM has been called off till March-ist next year .. due to peiople basicaly being not bothereed to make the trip to Douglas on Saturday ;(
[16:33] <bokjhv> Sadition abounds .
[16:33] <BigRedS> oooh. google docs seems idiot-proof
[16:33] <BigRedS> but no export-to-free
[16:34] <popey> bokjhv, how far is it for people to travel?
[16:34] <bokjhv> 5 miles usu.
[16:34] <popey> lol
[16:34] <popey> if I go to my local lug meet in southampton it's 50 miles each way
[16:34] <AlanBell> BigRedS: download as -> odt/odp/ods
[16:34] <popey> luckily they often have them nearer
[16:34] <bokjhv> Geography goes nuts here a trip to the other side of Town is like going to the dark side of the moon. strange really.
[16:34] <BigRedS> AlanBell: doesn't seem to do that. Does do PDF, though, which is good enough
[16:35] <BigRedS> I've no need to edit the downloaded file
[16:35] <BigRedS> in fact, it's probably best that I can't :)
[16:35] <AlanBell> ooh, there isn't .odp
[16:36] <bokjhv> Anyway I had a new project wikimapia .. until I saw it was closed source .. poo.
[16:39] <bokjhv> Found a new crowd-funding website though .. https://fundrise.com/offerings/1/view  looks legit ..
[16:39] <bokjhv> Shame it's all one investment company though...
[16:41]  * bokjhv :note to self .. must stop sucking on the Americae crowdfunding pipe ^_^ 
[16:53] <bokjhv> Finally got the LEET a/c on my w$ndows sys.(sic) http://goo.gl/G6Eva
[16:58] <TheOpenSourcerer> how cool is this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1GkYT_CSH8
[17:04] <popey> very
[17:07] <czajkowski> For the train fans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrhslXjN5xE
[17:08] <bokjhv> Toys .. here's my wishlist for chrimbo .. http://goo.gl/2dYk4
[17:12] <BigRedS> w$ndows? That's a new one on me
[17:23] <bokjhv> :)
[17:24] <bokjhv> Ofcourse ' Amazon Web serv$ces ' follows closely behind.
[17:27] <czajkowski> bokjhv: you could just spell the words correctly :) it looks a bit petty
[17:35] <BigRedS> It's just that "Windows" has an S in it already
[17:36] <mgdm> I have to say I've not seen someone call Microsoft 'Micro$oft' for a number of years
[17:36] <mgdm> either I dno't read the right websites/mailing lists any more, or people have grown up
[17:36] <BigRedS> yeah, I guess MS are less 'everywhere' too, now
[17:36] <mgdm> or maybe Apple and Google are the new evil ;-)
[17:36] <MartijnVdS> nah just Apple
[17:36] <BigRedS> yeah, I think the trick is to have a company name that you can't easily insert a currency symbol into
[17:38] <MartijnVdS> Appl€ ?
[17:38] <MartijnVdS> App£€?
[17:40] <dwatkins> So one with letters in?
[17:40] <jacobw2> Use an upside down Yen sign to the be A
[17:41] <jacobw2> I'm also quite glad we've progressed from 'M$' et al
[17:41] <MartijnVdS> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_sign
[17:42] <MartijnVdS> ¤ for "o"
[17:42] <BigRedS> yeah, but it needs to be immediately recognisable as a currency symbol rather than just an encoding bug
[17:44] <shauno> I just name companies after their stock tickers.  a bit more subtle, a bit less childish
[17:44] <bokjhv> ȺPPLE ?
[17:45] <bokjhv> ДPPLE ?
[17:45] <bokjhv> OR Ѧpple If you're Jewish ... ..
[17:46] <MartijnVdS> Isn't the Israeli currency pronounced "Shackle"? ;)
[17:48] <mohawk> hello? Cans eomeon help me?
[17:48] <mohawk> someone*
[17:49] <MartijnVdS> It hinkw ecan!
[17:49] <MartijnVdS> ;)
[17:49] <penguin42> mohawk: State the nature of the help required
[17:49] <mohawk> I have a dual boot ubuntu and windows pc
[17:49] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: You're The Doctor? :)
[17:49] <mohawk> i want to make it just ubuntu
[17:49] <mohawk> but ubuntu is the secondary os
[17:49] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: :-)
[17:49] <mohawk> so how do i uninstalll windows and make it just ubuntu?
[17:50] <penguin42> mohawk: Are they on the same disk?
[17:50] <bokjhv> Perhaps .. My personal favouite is Win₠  which I google about once every two months .. just to see if I can get the coding ebooks [ http://goo.gl/n1BSs ]
[17:50] <MartijnVdS> mohawk: you get an Ubuntu install CD, run "gparted", remove the Windows partition, move Ubuntu's swap partition to the end of the disk, resize the Ubuntu partition to be the full disk size
[17:50] <mohawk> yes they are
[17:50] <MartijnVdS> mohawk: (just the partition)
[17:50] <MartijnVdS> then resize the filesystem once you're re-rebooted into Ubuntu
[17:50] <penguin42> bokjhv: Woah - why is there a ₠ glyph?
[17:50] <MartijnVdS> </short version>
[17:51] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: why not?
[17:51] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Well, erm what's it for ?
[17:51] <bokjhv> penguin42, Cambria Math Font-base
[17:51] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: U+20A0 EURO-CURRENCY SIGN
[17:51] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: it's the old "Ecu" currency
[17:52] <mohawk> I am not the most tech-savvy person, so i think they are on the same partition, i have the recovery partition and the D drive
[17:52] <penguin42> bokjhv/MartinjnVds: Interesting difference of opinion
[17:52] <mohawk> I mean the recovery and Local Disk (C:)
[17:52] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: ☃☣☤☢☭☮☯ exist..
[17:53] <MartijnVdS> mohawk: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowToRemoveWindows
[17:53] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: Lots of really odd ones in that area
[17:53] <MartijnVdS> Mohawk-The-Noob: that page should explain it
[17:53] <Mohawk-The-Noob> ok
[17:53] <Mohawk-The-Noob> cool
[17:54] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: there's a new cool block at the end.. with all kinds of emoticons and other things
[17:55] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: I like the set that's used by fliptext.org
[17:55] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: unicode 6 added "sans-serif bold italic small e" (and the rest of the alphabet)
[17:56] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: lots of variations
[17:56] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: U+1f000 and up :)
[17:56] <bokjhv> OK OK lets not get into Hyroglyphics, Plz.
[17:57] <MartijnVdS> bokjhv: nah these are just domino tiles, cards, mahjong tiles,
[17:57] <penguin42> bokjhv: ʇ,uoʍ ǝʍ 'ʎɹɹoʍ ʇ,uop
[17:59] <bokjhv> crumbs, I see 'there is no spoon' !!
[18:00] <penguin42> better eat it with your fingers then
[18:00] <czajkowski> c
[18:01] <bokjhv> Did anyone find that article on Pengi OS about spotify and installing the .deb ?? .. wonderfully written.
[18:02] <bokjhv> I must say the request for Info. on the #spotify channel is a little overwhelming at times.
[18:10] <brianb> where about are you based popey?
[18:14] <popey> brianb, farnborough
[18:15] <neuro> which is like fairford but more stuffy and less fun
[18:18] <einonm> and presumably pronounced by some Americans as farn-baroogah
[18:19] <einonm> ..as my wife once had an american ask 'where's loogah-baroogah from here?'
[18:19] <neuro> americans tend to do "borough" and "burgh" as "boro"
[18:20] <neuro> after hearing american colleagues in $job-1 refer to "edinburgh" as "edinboro" many, many, MANY times, I can attest to this
[18:20] <MartijnVdS> Pittsboro?
[18:21] <neuro> good point, i heard many "edin-burg"s as well
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> neuro: Be glad it wasn't "Edinbury"
[18:22] <neuro> never heard that
[18:23] <shauno> boro/berg are the variations I'm used to too
[18:23] <einonm> it turned out that loogah-baroogah was quite a way away. She was in lie-cest-err at the time.
[18:24] <neuro> asking americans to pronounce oddly-worded UK place names is always fun
[18:24] <neuro> "hey, try Milngavie!"
[18:24] <neuro> "Gloucester!"
[18:24] <brianb> ok in hampshire then
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> neuro: gloucestershire
[18:24] <shauno> I feel like that here.  6 years in ireland, and I can't pronounce the street I live on
[18:24] <neuro> "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch!"
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> neuro: you typed that from memory, didn't you
[18:24] <neuro> nope
[18:25] <neuro> google chrome + "llanf" + autocomplete
[18:25] <MartijnVdS> :)
[18:25] <neuro> you have to admire my honesty
[18:26] <MartijnVdS> neuro: try to get people to pronounce "Worcester"
[18:26] <brianb> apart from windows do any of you guys use other linux distros
[18:26] <AlanBell> windows is not a linux distro!
[18:26] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: it's not?!?!
[18:26] <neuro> "apart from windows"?!
[18:27] <brianb> i know that
[18:27] <neuro> i used to be able to say i had no windows systems in my house
[18:27] <penguin42> brianb: I use Mint and Debian sometimes; but have used RHEL, SLES, Slackware and probably some others in the past
[18:27] <neuro> now i have a windows 7 laptop, a windows 8 desktop and a windows 7 vm
[18:27] <neuro> i feel dirty
[18:27] <shauno> I use debian more places than ubuntu these days
[18:28] <brianb> anyone tried Hikua, minix or helenos those are ukernel based
[18:28] <davmor2> neuro: than vair pwilth gwen gilth go gericth wern drobilth thantesilio go go gocth that's obviously the way to say it
[18:28] <penguin42> brianb: I think I once tried Minix like 20 years ago
[18:28] <neuro> davmor2: good luck teaching that to americans :)
[18:28] <neuro> minix ... good lord
[18:28]  * penguin42 hasn't heard of Hikua or helenos
[18:28] <neuro> 20 years for me too
[18:28] <neuro> college!
[18:28] <shauno> I have haiku in a VM, haven't poked it much yet though
[18:28] <MartijnVdS> isn't brobostigon running Haiku?
[18:28] <penguin42> neuro: Yeh, I think last time I saw it was on a 8086 Amstrad
[18:29] <neuro> IBM PS/2 for me
[18:29] <penguin42> shauno: What are it's error messages like?
[18:29] <neuro> 286 power!
[18:29] <AlanBell> I used riscos the other day :)
[18:29] <shauno> penguin42: heh, I haven't had any yet
[18:29] <neuro> AlanBell: masochist!
[18:29] <penguin42> AlanBell: On a Pi ?
[18:29] <AlanBell> yeah, on a Pi
[18:29] <shauno> I did notice someone's built plan9 for the pi
[18:29] <MartijnVdS> weird people are weird
[18:29] <AlanBell> it isn't open source as such, but there is a free as in beer image for the pi
[18:29] <penguin42> weird people? Here? Never....
[18:29] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: yes, but only off an sdhc,
[18:30] <brianb> any tried mandriva, mageia or ROSA
[18:30] <neuro> is plan 9 still under dev or is it just like retroware now?
[18:30] <penguin42> ROSA? Not heard of ROSA
[18:30] <neuro> mandriva? that still exists?
[18:30] <penguin42> thought they became mageia
[18:30] <shauno> neuro: not sure.  there's still daily snapshots, but the last real release was 2002
[18:30] <neuro> shame
[18:31] <neuro> i really liked it
[18:31] <neuro> that and BeOS
[18:31] <brianb> yes it now based  upon rosa
[18:31] <penguin42> brianb: Got a link to Rosa?
[18:31] <davmor2> penguin42: mageia is post of mandriva free before mandriva filed for bankruptcy again
[18:31]  * neuro uses an arcane OS called something like "Oh Ess Ecks"
[18:31] <neuro> and there's a cat on it
[18:31] <brianb> just type rosa in google or look on distrowatch
[18:32] <shauno> argh.  it's oh-ess-ten, not oh-sex.
[18:32] <neuro> Rosa's Thai Restauraunt
[18:32] <brianb> rosa is a russian development
[18:32] <penguin42> brianb: I get the Thai Restaurant in London, a UK fund for Women and girls
[18:32] <neuro> Rosa: The UK Fund for women and girls
[18:32] <neuro> Rosa on wikipedia
[18:32] <penguin42> ah - rosalab.com ?
[18:33] <neuro> shauno: I know, I was being ironical
[18:33] <brianb> yeah rosalabs
[18:33]  * neuro hugs his mbp
[18:33] <brianb> its novel
[18:33] <penguin42> brianb: There are lots of country popular distros
[18:34] <neuro> what window manager is that distro using, kde?
[18:35] <neuro> yup, it is, never mind
[18:35] <neuro> (just saw a screenshot with dolphin)
[18:35] <penguin42> neuro: Oh, I read it as a RHEL derivative
[18:35] <brianb> ive used mandriva for years when i gave windows xp the boot
[18:35] <AlanBell> http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/feature/2229164/dells-ubuntu-xps-13-should-worry-microsoft quite a positive spin on the Sputnik
[18:35] <neuro> penguin42: you can get kde for rhel
[18:35] <brianb> as well as various versions of ubuntu
[18:36] <shauno> I use mandrake years ago, before I had a video card that'd do X properly. the only difference I noticed was that they colourized the output of gcc (?!)
[18:36] <penguin42> neuro: Nod, a little unusual to use as a default on RHEL though - not that I complain, I use KDE on Ubuntu as my main desktop
[18:36] <neuro> "colourized"
[18:37] <neuro> sorry, didn't expect to see cross-Atlantic mangling twice in one word :)
[18:37] <neuro> AlanBell: tis interesting seeing Dell be honest with the pricing
[18:38] <shauno> colourize is in the OED, ~ise isn't.
[18:38] <neuro> kinda shows up the futility of asking for your "windows tax" back
[18:38] <AlanBell> the price is high, but I would have paid it 6 months ago
[18:39] <neuro> shauno: OED prefers -ize to -ise, so that's not surprising
[18:39] <AlanBell> we just bought a novatec ultrabook with very similar spec for half the price of the Dell
[18:39] <penguin42> AlanBell: Generally Dell will sell most of their stuff OS-free to business if you have a sales person; end user sales are more restricted
[18:40] <shauno> they should both be there when appropriate.  my understanding is that it's greek vs latin, not UK vs US
[18:40] <neuro> shauno: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Spelling/Words_ending_with_%22-ise%22_or_%22-ize%22#Words_ending_with_.22-ise.22_or_.22-ize.22
[18:41] <neuro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling
[18:42] <AlanBell> penguin42: sure, my main issue with the sputnik was that they sat on the thing for ages before releasing it for purchase, and they are targetting early adopters
[18:42] <shauno> it still sounds more correct to my ear.  quoting pages that say "Since the 1990s, -ise has become more common in the UK" really doesn't give it much more credence
[18:42] <penguin42> AlanBell: Why did they sit on it? Time for training internally or wanting to miss the christmas sale period or something?
[18:43] <brianb> as any one used win 8?
[18:43] <AlanBell> penguin42: I have no clue. They announced it, and demoed it, and gave 3 away at UDS-Q in May
[18:43] <neuro> shauno: UK English generally favours -ise
[18:43] <penguin42> brianb: only in a shop
[18:43] <neuro> brianb: yes, it's rubbish
[18:43] <brianb> i was not very impressed with win 8
[18:44] <penguin42> brianb: It has one very nice feature; windows-d gets back to the old-style interface; I think that's a nice thing to do
[18:44] <shauno> neuro: according to the pages you just linked, that's a change "since the 1990s".
[18:44] <AlanBell> penguin42: at the time I was "shut up, and take my money" but now I am "meh"
[18:44] <brianb> think its a very over hyped MS product
[18:45] <brianb> android and apple are streets ahead of win 8
[18:45] <penguin42> brianb: I can see it working nicely as an interface on a tablet; a bit odd on laptops with touchpads
[18:45] <shauno> imho, it's misunderstanding that since the americans prefer -ize, we must prefer -ise.  which would be frankly just as silly as claiming that every word with an -or ending should be -our in british english.
[18:45] <neuro> shauno: The Times started using it from the 1990s, not sure where the first reference came from
[18:45] <neuro> the page used to say "in the past few decades"
[18:46] <neuro> brianb: android streets ahead of windows?
[18:46] <brianb> yes
[18:46] <neuro> on a desktop?
[18:46] <brianb> and apple ios is streets ahead of win
[18:46] <neuro> wut?
[18:47] <dw4tkins> haha
[18:47] <neuro> windows 7 was actually rather good
[18:47] <neuro> windows 8 has tablety stuff unnecessarily bodged on
[18:47] <dw4tkins> brianb: iOS is what runs on an iPhone :)
[18:48] <shauno> I actually think win8 is quite brave.  from the perspective of someone who doesn't have to use it, it's interesting to see someone try something new
[18:48] <brianb> and tablets
[18:48] <popey> ooh, my local pc world has chromebooks in store
[18:48] <penguin42> shauno: I think the ability to flip back to the old interface removes most of the risk
[18:48] <neuro> shauno: the devil is in the details unfortunately
[18:49] <penguin42> popey: The ARM ones?
[18:49] <popey> not sure
[18:49] <neuro> the problem with flipping back to the old interface is that the old interface isn't complete
[18:49] <neuro> i.e. the start menu is gone
[18:49] <penguin42> neuro: Ah interesting, I hadn't looked ind etail
[18:49] <brianb> i have dowladed a chrome o/s system to a usb stick its good all the time you are connected to the internet
[18:49] <neuro> you have to press the windows key or double nudge the mouse against the right side of the desktop to get the start button up
[18:50] <neuro> and pressing either brings up the not-metro splash screen again
[18:50] <AlanBell> popey: they had them at Guildford too, but not the ARM ones when I looked (when I got the Nexus 7)
[18:50] <neuro> some enterprising devs have brought out hacks to try and restore the old win7 start menu again
[18:51] <penguin42> neuro: 'double nudge' ?! Wow - a whole new paradigm
[18:51] <neuro> oh sorry, not a double nudge
[18:51] <brianb> IP that action
[18:51] <neuro> i'm thinking of getting the menu bar up in some full screen OS X apps
[18:51] <neuro> you have to go to either the top right or top left of the desktop
[18:51] <neuro> hover, and the charms menu appears
[18:52] <neuro> really frustrating to use
[18:52] <neuro> in retrospect i should have bought the machine with win 8 pro and exercised my downgrade rights
[18:52] <brianb> anyone used the apple dock app on ubuntu?
[18:52] <neuro> as it i bought it with win 8 then did the pro upgrade from microsoft.com
[18:52] <neuro> not sure if i have downgrade rights
[18:53] <neuro> also i've installed smegtons of stuff off steam and origin, not sure i want to do all that again :)
[18:54] <popey> brianb, docky?
[18:54] <brianb> not sure
[18:55] <neuro> ah, linux, the place where people go to crib other OSes UIs :)
[18:55]  * neuro hugs his mbp again :)
[18:55] <popey> trololololo
[18:55] <neuro> hee
[18:55] <brianb> Cairo dock is it?
[18:56] <popey> maybe, dunno, i dont use them
[18:56] <neuro> popey: you a lens man now?
[18:56] <shauno> a little trollish, but it's not so far off when people specifically ask for 'the apple dock'
[18:56] <popey> i use ubuntu + unity
[18:56] <neuro> kudos for sticking it out
[18:57] <neuro> i can't use unity, i find it horrendous
[18:57] <neuro> shauno: it goes way back ... look at fvwm95!
[18:57] <AlanBell> it is much better than it used to be
[18:57] <neuro> AlanBell: oh no doubt
[18:57] <popey> apple never ever copies anything from anyone, ever.
[18:57] <popey> ever
[18:57] <brianb> i think it quite good unity only if you have a large screen
[18:57] <neuro> popey: i didn't say they didn't ;)
[18:57] <popey> i use it on a 1366x768 screen
[18:58] <popey> I'm not saying you did :0
[18:58] <popey> just putting it out there :)
[18:58] <neuro> f'nar
[18:58] <neuro> you sultry minx
[18:59] <brianb> minix eats bugs
[18:59] <AlanBell> I use unity all the time, generally with two screens of different sizes
[18:59] <neuro> minix ...
[19:00] <brianb> well the racoon does
[19:00] <neuro> minix users who are !students must be in the single digits these days
[19:00] <brianb> lol
[19:00] <brianb> not as much as helenos
[19:00] <penguin42> neuro: They can probably fit in a cab with the Hurd user
[19:00] <neuro> hehe
[19:01] <brianb> they dont even chat on that irc channel
[19:01] <brianb> and i think you have to ask permission to
[19:02] <brianb> the minix irc is very friendly channel same as haiku
[19:02] <neuro> popey: arm chromebooks ... is it showing as actually in stock or is it the one where you have to wait a day to get it (they get stock delivered JIT)
[19:03] <popey> they have it in stock
[19:04] <popey> "Reserve and collect - in just one hour"
[19:04] <neuro> quidco have 10% cashback on pc world atm
[19:04] <brianb> chromebooks are reasonably priced compared to win 8
[19:04] <neuro> nice, my local currys and PC worlds are all "pay and collect"
[19:04] <popey> they are capable of much less than windows 8
[19:04] <popey> so makes sense for them to cost less
[19:04] <AlanBell> ooh, they do have the ARM one for £229
[19:05] <neuro> AlanBell: john lewis and amazon has it too
[19:05] <neuro> the sammy with the exynos
[19:05] <popey> they have at least 5
[19:06] <neuro> i like the keyboard size
[19:06] <neuro> makes it look like a 12" titanium powerbook
[19:06] <brianb> is there a android download that can be used on a pc?
[19:06] <popey> http://www.android-x86.org/
[19:06] <brianb> or laptop
[19:06] <neuro> brianb: there's a mobile emulator as part of the sdk
[19:07] <neuro> oh, i see what you're asking
[19:07] <brianb> the problem is we are spoiled for choice now with so many O/S
[19:07] <popey> i don't believe that's the problem
[19:08] <neuro> wow, android x86 looks ... messy
[19:09] <neuro> on vbox image config: "Sound device: change to Sound Blaster 16."
[19:09] <neuro> there's a thing I've not heard of for quite some time
[19:09] <brianb> its difficult deciding which is the best system that does what you want and i guess its down to personal prefrence at the end of the day
[19:10] <AlanBell> choice is a good thing
[19:10] <brianb> yes very much so
[19:10] <shauno> it's an easy enough choice here.  there's one sane OS on the desktop, and two on the server.  and the rest is just noise
[19:10] <neuro> similar here
[19:10] <neuro> i suspect our desktop choices may differ though ;)
[19:12] <neuro> quick, let's make jokes about popey
[19:12] <neuro> ah well
[19:12] <bokjhv> AlanBell, You mentioned RiscOS on Rasp-Pi .. have seen this .odt ?? http://goo.gl/Zvogf
[19:12] <neuro> that was a short lived opportunity
[19:13] <bokjhv> soorry if I've shared it before :)
[19:13] <AlanBell> that is a 36GB torrent
[19:14] <neuro> i was about to say that :)
[19:14] <AlanBell> no thanks :)
[19:14] <neuro> Theory Of Computation/Computational Complexity - Christos Papadimitriou
[19:14] <neuro> DOES CHRISTOS KNOW?!
[19:15] <neuro> that's a very very very cheeky torrent
[19:34] <bokjhv> Quick question .. do you think this keyboard will work with Ubuntu ?? http://goo.gl/VAK6J  I need it for programming ...
[19:34] <directhex> yes, but you won't have an exact keymap, iirc
[19:35] <penguin42> would be surprised if it doesn't
[19:35] <directhex> i.e. either @ is in the wrong place, or £ is missing
[19:35] <neuro> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppleKeyboard
[19:36] <bokjhv> oh OK, thank-you .. AlanBell , Sorry linked wrong RiscOS file ,, sorry. http://goo.gl/b3Sza
[19:36] <neuro> yeah, you pasted a link to something rather naughty :)
[19:38] <bokjhv> No idea where it came from, honest guv.  afolder within a file .. go figure ?
[19:38] <neuro> lol
[19:52] <shauno> I found an edge case that made my shasum script from yesterday explode.  apparently there were duplicate files with different names in the original filelist.  so when the grep returns multiple lines, I end up with some pretty horrendous filenames
[19:57] <penguin42> shauno: Ah, so your question is what you actually want it to do in that case
[19:57] <shauno> yeah, it's going to be a fun one.  do I want to create both files, etc
[19:59] <shauno> or a hardlink so the archive looks complete, but without duplicate entries
[20:01] <penguin42> shauno: I'm not sure how you ended up doing it; but if you did it by renaming the input files to their sha name and then renaming them out; instead just hardlink them out, and then clean up by removing the files - it should deal with dupes ?
[20:02] <shauno> the issue still exists that way.  duplicates in the original filelist that I have the shasums recorded for.  so when you grep thesum reflist, you get multiple lines returned
[20:03] <shauno> mv is quite happy to obey though, so I think I'll just be cleaning up the bad filenames by hand after.  they're a sensible minority
[20:16] <bigcalm> Foo
[20:16] <popey> bar
[20:16] <bigcalm> mc \o/
[20:17] <bigcalm> Using a trackball is better with mc than I had expected
[20:17] <shauno> assuming you don't mean midnight commander, find a bald skin and pretend you're just manipulating steve's chromed dome ;)
[20:18] <shauno> (er, bald-headed.  that reads .. off)
[20:22] <davmor2> bigcalm: I thought you were proclaiming to be a geek Mic Controller after making popey bar you :D
[20:35] <daubers> Evening
[20:37] <MartijnVdS> \o
[20:40] <zleap> what does this mean (message to ubuntu-uk) mail list got delayed " Message has implicit destination"
[20:44] <popey> zleap, you cross-posted
[20:44] <popey> it's generally best practice to send separate mails to separate lists, not cross post to loads of lists
[20:45] <zleap> ah
[20:45] <zleap> i was sending the same mail to 3linux list
[20:46] <zleap> if put to in each address box does it tell other lists were else i sent it ?
[20:47] <zleap> ok hopefully the moderator will approve
[20:48] <popey> the moderator is me
[20:48] <popey> send separate mails
[20:48] <zleap> ok
[20:49] <bokjhv> Werll I got the keyboard, anyhow .. good times ahead !
[20:49] <bokjhv> **Well
[20:49] <zleap> ok thanks
[20:50] <zleap> done
[21:28] <AlanBell> anyone used chrome remote desktop?
[21:30] <penguin42> not heard of it
[21:31] <AlanBell> it is a chrome/chromium plugin that does screen sharing and goes through firewalls/NAT
[21:31] <AlanBell> https://chrome.google.com/remotedesktop
[21:31] <AlanBell> apparently fully cross platform and rather cool
[21:33] <AlanBell> 760137004970 <- see my desktop
[21:34] <penguin42> interesting, does it detail it's security setup anywhere?
[21:35] <AlanBell> penguin42: dunno, try connecting to me with that number
[21:35] <AlanBell> woot
[21:36] <AlanBell> did it work?
[21:36] <shauno> hm.  I tried, but got booted as soon as something convincing flashed up
[21:36] <AlanBell> hmm
[21:36] <shauno> (sorry, nosey, hadn't seen this before either)
[21:36] <AlanBell> well it popped up that the session had started, then it cut off
[21:36] <AlanBell> so it did do some NAT traversal and figured out where I was based on that code
[21:37] <AlanBell> this would be very cool if it works
[21:37] <penguin42> Without knowing what was encrypted where and who had access to the decrypted versions I'd be rather nervous
[21:42] <AlanBell> http://support.google.com/chrome/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1649523
[21:42] <AlanBell> Verify that your firewall permits outbound UDP traffic, permits inbound UDP responses, and allows traffic on TCP ports 443 (HTTPS) and 5222 (XMPP).
[21:43] <shauno> for the last two, allows in which direction?
[21:43] <AlanBell> so it probably securely negotiates the connection over https and/or xmpp then does UDP for the data connection
[21:43] <AlanBell> outbound https to google and xmpp to google talk apparently
[21:44] <AlanBell> once it has done the connection it does stun type stuff to get UDP going between the two endpoints
[21:44] <AlanBell> which might well also be encrypted
[21:44] <shauno> hm.  trying to use xmpp as the transport may break it for me.  my google account isn't a gmail address, so I'm backed by a different xmpp server
[21:46] <AlanBell> dunno, it is supposed to happen by magic, don't think it actually requires a google talk account
[21:48] <penguin42> AlanBell: I'd prefer these type of things to fully document the security
[21:48] <AlanBell> 018370090719 multiple monitors are not supported, try that code shauno
[21:49] <shauno> looks convincing
[21:49] <penguin42> that would be a lot of monitors
[21:49] <shauno> oh
[21:49] <AlanBell> that worked for a bit
[21:49] <AlanBell> penguin42: heh
[21:50] <shauno> interesting that it stopped when I switched to a fullscreen app.  it may be that Canary doesn't quite agree with OSX's fullscreen stuff
[21:50] <shauno> so it looked convincing right until I switched to a terminal to say thus
[21:50] <AlanBell> hmm, ok
[21:52] <AlanBell> someone with an OS that can cope with two mouse buttons want to try 886859131921
[21:52] <shauno> heh
[21:55] <shauno> ah, I see where it's going wrong.  when I page between different fullscreen apps, it switches gpus for the duration of the transition.  apparently remote desktop doesn't like that
[21:56] <AlanBell> gosh
[21:59] <penguin42> shauno: Running bumblebee?
[21:59] <penguin42> oh...osx
[22:03] <Monotoko> hey guys... is anyone around here familiar with a program called synergy?
[22:05] <Monotoko> or more specifically... I need to assign a hotkey to show the sidebar, rather than my mouse in the top corner... synergy is a keyboard+mouse sharing program... and I can't seem to hit the "hotspot" without going to my other PC
[22:05] <penguin42> I use synergy, but not tried anything like that
[22:05] <penguin42> indeed I'm typing to you via it now
[22:06] <Monotoko> I am too... I just can't seem to get the sidebar to show up
[23:26] <arossDOTme> I am helping a friend. I have given him a flash drive, full install style with adjustments so it does not wear out the flash so quickly. He has mucked up networking. I am a networking newbie. How do I completely reset everything network related? I am looking the the doc on the wiki.