[00:45] <jo-erlend> We don't fight RMS on those issues. It's as simple as that. I don't believe in violence but I was just as extremely committed to Ubuntu as Breivik was to his cause. That is the enemy. We should learn from RMS and not make the same mistakes. We should fight fanaticism even when it's in our favour.
[00:49] <jo-erlend> But the point is that there is nothing that can convince RMS to calm down, so don't try. There is no danger there. He has his rather extreme points, but they are points and he is fanatical and there's nothing wrong about that either. He is fighting for a worthy cause and I believe in that cause, but what should make us different is our ability to calm people down.
[00:52] <jo-erlend> But we are all part of the same team and that's important to remember. If he is the extremist, then that gives us room to be the moderates but also allows for the fanatics to work behind the scenes while Ubuntu works in the spotlight. Everyone wins – as long as we don't fight.
[00:54] <jo-erlend> So we don't fight.
[01:02] <jo-erlend> we want contributors and not fanatics. That has always been the strong point of Ubuntu. It is the community that has made people come into play and it is the fanaticism that has held Linux back.
[01:03] <jo-erlend> And I know.
[01:15] <jo-erlend> jono, AlanBell, IdleOne, marcoceppi, czajkowski, mhall119.... I guess I've been lurking for a while, looking for a good place to jump back in.
[01:18] <IdleOne> jo-erlend: I guess that all depends on what you want to do :) I know the news team always needs helpful people. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewsTeam
[01:18] <jono> jo-erlend, great to have you back!
[01:19] <jo-erlend> no, it doesn't depend on what you want to be. That's the point. I wanted Ubuntu because it was moderate and because I didn't want to be a fanatic. Still, I became one. And I know why.
[01:19] <IdleOne> I didn't say "what you want to be" I said "what you want to do"
[01:20] <IdleOne> I don't know what your areas of interest are so it is difficult for me to say, this or that. Know what I mean.
[01:21] <jo-erlend> yes but that means the same thing. I want to do the exact same thing that RMS wants to do. I just want to do it using a different set of tools. But when his tools becomes my tools because I focus too much on his, then we all loose. If we accept his tools and use our own, then we all win.
[01:21] <jo-erlend> thanks, by the way.
[01:21] <IdleOne> I'm not sure what RMS does besides stir the pot when it has already been stirred and salted to the tilt.
[01:23] <IdleOne> I guess the best advice I can give is pick one thing you are interested in helping in and do that. Add more things (if you want) a little at a time.
[01:25] <jo-erlend> exactly. I started with the kinda noble cause of wanting to explain why we want to make the leap from Gnome 2 to new models. So I argued and I wrote. Then there were responses. But some was delayed by a week or a month. Suddenly I needed to respond to a hundred accusations that weren't even related to me and then I had no time to do anything else. I fell into a rather dangerous trap with the whole Gnome Panel thing.
[01:26] <jo-erlend> still dangerous. The only thing I wanted to do, was to explain why Gnome Panel had not been killed by Unity. That's it.
[01:28] <IdleOne> Not sure what to tell you. I know that any little help is appreciated, but remember, its only Ubuntu.
[01:29] <jo-erlend> I've had six months to cool down. And I am a rather cool person. That's what frightens me. And no, there is no "only Ubuntu". It is either a good idea or not. But we don't have to be fanatical about it.
[01:30] <jo-erlend> I really have learned a great deal, just watching everything from afar.
[01:31] <IdleOne> What I meant was that what we do for Ubuntu is important, but not so important that we should let it take over our lives. Don't let this define your existence, you are more than what you do for the project.
[01:32] <jo-erlend> yes, but you don't know that until you have.
[01:34] <jono> what are you folks discussing?
[01:34] <JoseeAntonioR> I think the blog posts
[01:34] <jo-erlend> jono, I'm discussing your article and my new insights into fanaticism.
[01:34] <jono> jo-erlend, new insights?
[01:36] <jo-erlend> jono, yes. I understood why it is possible for someone who fights for moderation and calmness to become a fierce and fanatic fighter. I always tried not to be that. And when I look back, I don't think I did anything wrong.
[01:36] <jono> jo-erlend, right
[01:37] <jono> I think the challenge here is that we all have our own views, and fundamentally, everyone is right
[01:37] <jono> I would never want to tell people that they are wrong just because I disagree with them
[01:37] <jono> but what I do call out is when it gets over-sensationalized
[01:37] <jono> this was really the aim of my post
[01:37] <jono> compare Richard's post to the recent EFF post on the same topic
[01:37] <jono> the EFF one was fair, balanced but equally as critical
[01:38] <jo-erlend> I perceived it that people thought that Gnome 3 was the same as Gnome Shell, that Unity was opposed to Gnome 3 and that we were all against the classic desktop, somehow. I wanted to explain. But it escalated and it consumed all my available time. That's not good. I understand how this can consume a whole person. But that's not Ubuntu.
[01:38] <jono> Richard's post accused the feature as malicious software deliberately seeking to gather knowledge without the user's consent
[01:38] <jono> jo-erlend, I agree
[01:38] <jono> some folks get consumed by these debates
[01:39] <jono> and in many cases it just isn't worth it
[01:39] <jono> I am more interested in us creating things rather than arguing about whether the things we create are right for everyone
[01:40] <jo-erlend> it started quite innocently; I just wanted to tell people that if you want the classic desktop, then use it and talk about it instead of being angry at the new stuff. But it really didn't come home to me how many comments I would have to respond to. So I  got used to responding and whereas they were boundless, I was not.
[01:40] <jo-erlend> I still think people have a good cause to fight for Gnome Panel. But I think I've done my part.
[01:41] <jono> jo-erlend, yeah
[01:41] <jono> different strokes with different folks :-)
[01:42] <jono> jo-erlend, you should write a blog entry about your experience
[01:42] <jono> it might be interesting to others
[01:43] <jo-erlend> yes, but this was an extreme situation and I would like to avoid it. Because the problem was really the misconceptions. That is what I was fighting. Not the choice. At the same time, I wanted to contribute to Unity. I had become a fan of it, though I wasn't to begin with.
[01:43] <jo-erlend> jono, I'm not good at collecting these things. I rather write them over and over. :)
[01:44] <jo-erlend> you're a musician; I never record anything. I only play live.
[01:44] <bkerensa> jono: "But the point is that there is nothing that can convince RMS to calm down, so don't try."
[01:44] <bkerensa> You said it man ^
[01:44] <bkerensa> jo-erlend: In RMS's  mind I don't think he is even excited about that post... I think its just what he does
[01:45] <jo-erlend> but don't condescend. I believe in much of it myself. I just don't believe in the rhetoric.
[01:46] <jo-erlend> but if he fights for that, then he'll attract some people. We should fight for the Valve side of things. In reality, we are fighting for the same big goal.
[01:48] <jono> bkerensa, I said that?
[01:48] <jo-erlend> he won't get people to _not_ stop using Windows because he is angry at Ubuntu. I want people to move away from Ubuntu in order to explore more detailed parts of the GNU/Linux life.
[01:48] <bkerensa> jono: Which?
[01:49] <bkerensa> no
[01:49] <bkerensa> jo-erlend said it
[01:49] <jono> bkerensa, "But the point is that there is nothing that can convince RMS to calm down, so don't try."
[01:49] <jono> ahhh
[01:49] <jono> bkerensa, I agree that RMS is used to making binary decisions
[01:49] <jono> and when he invites people to do the same that is fine
[01:49] <bkerensa> jono: thats the main point is I think we all know how he is with words and that he is very strict in his views
[01:49] <bkerensa> so
[01:49] <jono> I just felt that his post was unusually strong
[01:49] <jono> spyware and spying
[01:49] <bkerensa> battling him or calling him out may achieve little
[01:49] <jono> this is why I called him out on it
[01:49] <jono> I don't normally write posts like that
[01:49] <bkerensa> Last time I checked he doesnt even browse the web
[01:50] <jono> bkerensa, I disagree that just because RMS says it, we shouldn't challenge him on it
[01:50] <jono> bkerensa, would you take the same view of Mark shuttleworth?
[01:50] <jono> you don't have any issues challening Canonical
[01:50] <jo-erlend> RMS is a fanatic. And we need him. He will attract fanatics. We should attract those who are moving on from Windows XP, etc. We can't do that if he is a spokesperson for our beliefs, which he is not.
[01:51] <jono> as I tried to be clear in my post, I have huge respect for RMS
[01:51] <jono> and I think we need him and the FSF
[01:51] <jono> hence why I recommended people join them
[01:51] <jono> but I think posts like that that are overly-sensational don't help anyone
[01:51] <jono> bkerensa, compare the EFF post
[01:51] <jono> which was awesome, balanced, but focused on the same topic
[01:51] <bkerensa> jono: Take the same view of Shuttleworth? As in think its not worth arguing with him or calling him out?
[01:52] <jono> bkerensa, your view on RMS seems to be "he is that way and there is no point in challenging him", you could say that about Mark too with his perspectives
[01:52] <jo-erlend> I once rented a flat and there were lots of ants there. There were also quite a few spiders. Didn't like spiders so I killed them. But then I realized that the spiders got rid of the ants. And after all, the spiders kept away from me. So I stopped killing the spiders. And the ants disappeared.
[01:52] <jono> but I see you calling Canonical out quite often
[01:52] <bkerensa> jono: yes but Shuttleworth does not dismiss people if he disagrees with them... RMS will dismiss you in a hot second
[01:52] <bkerensa> :)
[01:52] <jono> jo-erlend, yeah, it is annoying when we can justify spiders :-)
[01:52] <jono> bkerensa, right, and why is it OK not to challenge that?
[01:53] <jo-erlend> jono, I grew fond of them, actually. :)
[01:53] <jono> jo-erlend, you are a madman :-)
[01:53] <jono> spiders scare the living shit out of me
[01:53] <bkerensa> jono: Because he has already dismissed you :) and me and anyone who does not agree with him... the second you clicked publish it was "a excuse" and he dismissed it
[01:53] <jono> bkerensa, I don't see that as a reason to not challenge people
[01:54] <jono> I have never subscribed to the view of "that is just the way they are", otherwise they never get challenged and never grow
[01:54] <bkerensa> I do not think you can challenge or call out those who do not recognize your voice as valid
[01:54] <jo-erlend> yes, me too, but ants attack me. They want to get into my glass. Spiders never do. They stay away from me and they make the ants go away too. :)
[01:54] <bkerensa> :)
[01:54] <bkerensa> thats just me though
[01:54] <jono> my biggest learning lessons in life are when I am challenged not unchallenged
[01:55] <bkerensa> jono: have you seen Kees blog post? If so what were your thoughts?
[01:55] <jono> bkerensa, I say the post from a while back
[01:55] <jono> you mean that one?
[01:55] <bkerensa> http://www.outflux.net/blog/archives/2012/11/09/product-search-in-ubuntu-12-10/
[01:55] <bkerensa> that one
[01:56] <jono> yeah I saw that
[01:56] <jono> good post
[01:56] <jono> again, balanced yet focused
[01:56] <bkerensa> do you think his points are valid? So far the Desktop Team ignored his bug
[01:56] <jono> well, it doesn't matter what my view on the feature is
[01:56] <jono> personally, I don't care what goes over the wire
[01:56] <jono> I know Canonical will take care of the service
[01:56] <mhall119> jo-erlend: welcome back my friend
[01:56] <jono> but that doesn
[01:57] <jono> but that doesn't mean others shouldn't care
[01:57] <bkerensa> jono: But you have said that Canonical does care about user privacy... In that post Kees pointed our privacy and security concerns... A bug was filed and ignored?
[01:57] <bkerensa> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-lens-shopping/+bug/1073114
[01:57] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1073114 in unity-lens-shopping (Ubuntu Raring) "Shopping Lens Does Not Respect User Privacy" [High,Confirmed]
[01:58] <jono> bkerensa, you should raise it with Jason Warner
[01:58] <jono> I don't run the desktop team
[01:58] <jo-erlend> mhall119, thank you. I was kinda humbled by my own logs.
[01:58] <mhall119> it happens to the best of us
[01:58] <jono> brb
[01:58] <jono> diaper time
[01:59] <jo-erlend> mhall119, I think it can, and that's the most valuable lesson I've ever learned, I think.
[01:59] <mhall119> jo-erlend: I have to re-learn it every few months :(
[02:00] <IdleOne> bkerensa: You say RMS has already dismissed those who don't agree with him. All the more reason to speak up IMHO. FUD is FUD and just because RMS says it doesn't make it not FUD.
[02:01] <jo-erlend> well, I kinda got an eye-opener when I considered Anders Breivik. It dawned on me that while I would never condone any kind of violence, the fanaticism was actually something I could relate to. Scared me more than a little.
[02:03] <jo-erlend> Breivik and I are actually extremely similar in many ways. Even lived just a few kilometers apart. Pretty much lived the same lives and experienced the same escalation of the mind.
[02:03] <bkerensa> IdleOne: So I do not agree that the Shopping Lens is Spyware and I do think that more results on the desktop will bring value but I do strongly believe that the privacy concerns do put some number of users in a scenario in which their keystrokes in the dash are unknowingly sent on the wire and although the keystrokes data is unlikely to be sensitive it is still a privacy concern that should be addressed by educating the user thro
[02:03] <bkerensa> ugh some message during install or upon upgrade or first boot.
[02:04] <bkerensa> IdleOne: If a developer is aware that their software is capturing end-user data and sending it unknowing to the users is this a good thing? That is the arguement that Kees made... The EFF made and ultimately what RMS said in his spyware post.
[02:05] <IdleOne> bkerensa: I completely agree with you. What I don't agree with is using buzzwords like spyware to frighten users into believing something that is not completely accurate.
[02:05] <mhall119> bkerensa: that may appease some people, but not all, and certainly not RMS
[02:05] <IdleOne> His (RMS) post was sensational for the sake of it.
[02:06] <mhall119> RMS was quite clear, he opposes Ubuntu and Amazon both, and there's no way we can combine the two that would ever satisfy him
[02:06] <jo-erlend> How does Ubuntu belong to GNU/Linux without letting GNU/Linux being a part of Ubuntu?
[02:06] <mhall119> jo-erlend: what do you mean?
[02:06] <jo-erlend> not in a technical sense.
[02:06] <IdleOne> Well, he is welcome to not use Ubuntu, but he should not be allowed to spread incomplete and misleading facts.
[02:07] <bkerensa> IdleOne: Good then we agree on two things... I didn't like the spyware bit either
[02:07] <mhall119> IdleOne: I agree
[02:07] <bkerensa> mhall119: but even if Amazon were out of the picture he opposes Ubuntu anyways because we do not follow his criteria
[02:07] <bkerensa> which is why were not on the FSF approved list
[02:07] <mhall119> bkerensa: yes
[02:07] <jo-erlend> mhall119, we don't want the eliteism and stuff like that. But we do want the enthusiasm.
[02:07] <bkerensa> same with Fedora and virtually every other distro too
[02:07] <mhall119> so there is nothing we can do to address RMS's criticisms
[02:07] <bkerensa> Bingo.
[02:08] <bkerensa> Not a blog post... nothing :)
[02:08] <mhall119> but, the problem is, RMS's criticism is still spreading disinformation, distrust, and tarnishing our work
[02:08] <IdleOne> mhall119: Not with him directly because he doesn't care to listen or learn. But we should address his concerns with facts like jono did and call out the BS for what it is.
[02:08] <jo-erlend> mhall119, there is something that can be done to address RMS. We just do it indirectly. We pay attention to what he sais and we write things that contradicts it without referencing him.
[02:08] <mhall119> and I don't feel that we should allow that to happen, coming from somebody with such a large audience, without addressing it
[02:09] <bkerensa> mhall119: I beg to differ... I do not think RMS tarnishes the work.... I think that those who listen to him would not be interested in ever using Ubuntu anyways
[02:09] <bkerensa> but thats just my thought
[02:09] <mhall119> bkerensa: you listen to him
[02:09] <mhall119> an dyou are interested in Ubuntu
[02:09] <IdleOne> bkerensa: those who listen to him will spread the same FUD
[02:09] <jo-erlend> we cannot convince him to play fair. We can play by proxy.
[02:10] <bkerensa> Yes but I listen to him not as a FSF loyalist but only as I'm interested in a laugh now and then and I still do admire his contributions to open source.
[02:10] <jo-erlend> no FUD. No attacks. Just facts.
[02:10] <mhall119> and even those who aren't interested in Ubuntu, if the conversations in other communities turns to how evil Ubuntu is, it stops collaboration and cooperation
[02:10] <jo-erlend> I have tremendous respect for that man. If there was any way to make him tone down his arguments, I would.
[02:11] <mhall119> so Mint users hear about how Unity is stealing user data for capitalist pigs, and now they won't allow Unity packages into Mint
[02:11] <mhall119> it accomplishes the "shunning" that RMS called for
[02:12] <jo-erlend> because he does have valid points. It's just that when he is attacking Ubuntu that way, he could just as easily attack Firefox' search bar. But calling Firefox an evil malicous spyware... It does not help.
[02:12] <IdleOne> Which means two communities now suffer from lack of cooperation because nobody stood up and called out the FUD
[02:12] <mhall119> heck, there's already people who automatically reject any contribution coming from us, or made specifically for us, for no other reason than because they don't like us
[02:12] <jo-erlend> mhall119, I have decided never to deal with Linux Mint. And for good reasons.
[02:12] <bkerensa> mhall119: considering mint uses Ubuntu's repos it would be hard for them to keep unity packages out
[02:13] <mhall119> there's nothing wrong with Mint, they have a good distro and a good community, and we *should* deal with them
[02:13] <mhall119> bkerensa: I thought they had their own now, pulling from Debian
[02:13] <mhall119> anyway, s/Mint/Fedora/ or Arch, or Suse
[02:13] <bkerensa> mhall119: idk I looked at a mint sources list recently and it had ubuntu repos
[02:13] <jo-erlend> there is something wrong about Mint and it is its community.
[02:14] <bkerensa> indeed
[02:14] <mhall119> I've not had any issue with them
[02:14] <bkerensa> Mint is a insecure distro
[02:14] <bkerensa> No Kernel Security Updates
[02:14] <IdleOne> How so?
[02:14] <mhall119> security isn't their goal
[02:14] <bkerensa> absolutely none
 mhall119: I beg to differ... I do not think RMS tarnishes the work.... I think that those who listen to him would not be interested in ever using Ubuntu anyways
[02:14] <bkerensa> jono: correct
[02:15] <jono> bkerensa, what I care about is that the people who don't like to use Ubuntu shout so loudly that it demotivates people who *do* contribute
[02:15] <jono> this is why this extremism is bad
[02:15] <jono> I don't understand why we can't get along and respect our differences
[02:15] <jono> again, this is why I would never dream of telling people not to support the FSF just because I disagree with some things
[02:15] <bkerensa> +1
[02:16] <jono> likewise, people should not boycott or shun Ubuntu
[02:16] <bkerensa> why have they not added a +1 button to Xchat yet? :)
[02:16] <jo-erlend> jono, we need facts. Something that enables us to calmly respond with a link.
[02:16] <jono> what is important is an open exchange of polite but focused views
[02:16] <jono> and not throwing around sensationalist language
[02:16] <jono> as an example:
[02:16] <jono> I could quite easily say "the FSF are bunch of hardcore, nutter, extremists"
[02:16] <jono> this is wrong for a few reasons:
[02:17] <bkerensa> jono: out of curiosity since I'm led to think he wont see your blog post... Did you e-mail him a copy?
[02:17] <jono> 1. it is disrespectful
[02:17] <jo-erlend> yes, but as a community, we should also help people not to feel obligated to respond. Ever. I did and it nearly ripped me apart.
[02:17] <jono> 2. not everyone s an extremist
[02:17] <jono> 3. much of their work is great
[02:17] <jono> so to suggest people shun Ubuntu because it violates RMS's personal perspective seems unconstructive to me
[02:17] <jo-erlend> I strongly disagree with #2. Everyone is a potential fanatic. And they won't know until they are one.
[02:17] <jono> bkerensa, I didn't email him, he can find it himself
[02:17] <bkerensa> jono:  "he generally does not actively browse the web from his computer; rather, he uses wget and reads the fetched pages from his e-mail mailbox, claiming to limit direct access via browsers to a few sites such as his own or those related to his work with GNU and the FSF"
[02:18] <jono> I am sure someone at the FSF emailed it to him
[02:18] <bkerensa> ahh
[02:18] <bkerensa> :)
[02:18] <jono> bkerensa, sure, but I am not going to email him it just because he doesn't choose to use the web :-)
[02:18] <bkerensa> lol
[02:18] <mhall119> jo-erlend: the facts are all widely knows, it's the interpretation of them that we have problems with
[02:18] <jono> bkerensa, what did you want to achieve with your blog post?
[02:18] <jono> bkerensa, it struck me as very much about bollocking me
[02:19] <jo-erlend> mhall119, no, that's simply not true. There are still people who believe it is not possible to get the classic desktop in 12.04-
[02:19] <jono> which surprised me given our previous conversations
[02:19] <jo-erlend> it was a messy point in time.
[02:19] <IdleOne> That right there, asking if jono emailed him to make sure RMS saw the post. Why on earth should jono bend over backwards because RMS has some weird thing about going on the internet?
[02:19] <jono> IdleOne, +1
[02:19] <mhall119> jo-erlend: true, but that's not the our biggest problem.
[02:19] <bkerensa> jono: To bring attention to the fact that despite continued statements from Canonical that it appears their is a lack of interest in addressing the privacy issues
[02:20] <jono> bkerensa, right, but didn't you read the first two lines of my post?
[02:20] <jono> it was a personal post
[02:20] <bkerensa> yes
[02:20] <jono> I wasn't speaking for Canonical
[02:20] <bkerensa> the second part was not about you
[02:20] <jono> so what did my post have to do with the fact you didn't get a response from the Desktop team?
[02:20] <bkerensa> it was simply addressing the privacy issues that gave rise to RMS's post
[02:20] <jo-erlend> mhall119, so why did MATE become an issue? It wasn't about technology, but it was about misconception. That is expensive.
[02:20] <mhall119> bkerensa: you know enough people in Canonical to know that we have people who are as concerned about privacy as you
[02:20] <jono> it just seemed your post was more about me saying "childish" than raising the issue of the Desktop team not responding
[02:20] <IdleOne> Canonical could hire 500 people to respond to criticism or they could hire 500 people to work on Ubuntu. I hope Canonical would go with the latter
[02:21] <smartboyhw> IdleOne, agreeed
[02:21] <smartboyhw> s/agreeed/agreed
[02:21] <bkerensa> jono: its not the desktop team that needs to respond and I do not need a response.... Its not their job to respond to me about privacy issues in the desktop its their job to address them... last time I checked they unmarked their team after Kees assigned the bug to them
[02:21] <jo-erlend> mhall119, instead of writing about  the pros and cons of Unity and Gnome Shell, I just had to focus on Gnome Panel, because noone else did and so large portions of the community thought it was gone. That's unacceptable.
[02:21] <bkerensa> its as if they do not want to fix it
[02:21] <bkerensa> mhall119: correct
[02:21] <jono> bkerensa, right, but I think you conflated two issues here
[02:21] <mhall119> jo-erlend: it's going to be gone, Gnome is dropping it
[02:22] <jono> your post was about me calling FUD on RMS
[02:22] <jono> and you said "I’m a bit flabbergasted by Jono’s response to Stallman since it didn’t seem to defend at all against Stallman’s claims."
[02:22] <jono> I made it quite clear in the post that I was not trying to convince people
[02:22] <mhall119> bkerensa: the problem isn't that we don't care about privacy, it's that we have to balance privacy with convenience
[02:22] <jono> so I just found your blog entry a bit odd to read, it just seemed like a personalized response to my post
[02:23] <jono> maybe I have it wrong
[02:23] <bkerensa> <jono> bkerensa, what did you want to achieve with your blog post?
[02:23] <jono> whereas it seems your primary concern is that Canonical is not doing enough with certain community concerns
[02:23] <jono> bkerensa, to be clear, I am not objecting to the post, blog about what you like :-)
[02:23] <bkerensa> My blog post was intended to point out that although RMS's scare tactics were not great that he does have valid concerns on privacy and that calling him childish does not achieve much.
[02:24] <jono> bkerensa, the word "childish" was one word in the whole post
[02:24] <mhall119> bkerensa: there are valid concerns about privacy with the shopping lens, but RMS did not bring them up
[02:24] <jo-erlend> mhall119, well, I've been promising that if people want to use it and if people want to work on it, then it doesn't matter what Gnome wants. But the point is that most people thought they didn't have a choice. And there are good aspects of that too. I feel more than a little duality. But there was bad communication.
[02:24] <jono> and to be honest, I probably shouldn't have used the word "childish"
[02:24] <IdleOne> bkerensa: What exactly did RMS achieve by calling Ubuntu spyware?
[02:25] <jono> but if you are nitpicking on words, "spyware" and "spying" were inaccurate too
[02:25] <jono> but I haven't seen you criticize RMS on this
[02:25] <mhall119> jo-erlend: true, as long as someone wants to maintain it, it will exist, but I get the feeling it's not very nice to maintain
[02:25] <jo-erlend> jono, don't worry about that. It was childish of RMS.
[02:25] <bkerensa> mhall119: Your saying RMS did not bring up privacy? Did you even read his post?
[02:25] <jono> mhall119, quick q
[02:25] <bkerensa> " To protect users' privacy, systems should make prudence easy: when a local search program has a network search feature, it should be up to the user to choose network search explicitly each time. This is easy: all it takes is to have separate buttons for network searches and local searches, as earlier versions of Ubuntu did. A network search feature should also inform the user clearly and concretely about who will get what perso
[02:25] <bkerensa> nal information of hers, if and when she uses the feature."
[02:25] <jono> did you convert all the pad content to markdown?
[02:25] <jono> mhall119, ^
[02:25] <mhall119> bkerensa: I'm saying he didn't bring up anything valid
[02:26] <bkerensa> he is pointing out exactly the same thing the EFF and Kees did
[02:26] <jono> bkerensa, he did
[02:26] <bkerensa> wait so what he said about users having choice and being informed is invalid?
[02:26] <mhall119> jono: it should all be Markdown, yes
[02:26] <jono> bkerensa, but he used FUD to outline the points...which is the whole point of my post :-)
[02:26] <jono> bkerensa, this is why I think you missed the point of my post - I am not convincing him or others about the validity of the feature, it was the tone in which he expressed his feedback
[02:26] <mhall119> bkerensa: I don't recall what the EFF and Kees pointed out, sorry
[02:26] <jono> the EFF post was *awesomely* written
[02:27] <jo-erlend> mhall119, but at the time, everyone was attacking Ubuntu for the prohibition of the classic desktop. This made it impossible for the classic desktop to attract followers, which made it possible for MATE to untimately kill it, though I suspect they never had any interest in keeping it alive.
[02:27] <jono> an so was Kees' post
[02:27] <bkerensa> mhall119: they pointed out that the shopping lens is blatant privacy fail :)
[02:27] <bkerensa> and Kees specifically said it should be fixed ASAP or removed
[02:27] <mhall119> bkerensa: what reasons did they give?
[02:28] <bkerensa> mhall119: I would rather allow Kees post to speak for itself :) http://www.outflux.net/blog/archives/2012/11/09/product-search-in-ubuntu-12-10/
[02:28] <jo-erlend> jono, RMS did make the case that he want us to claim that "Free software does not spy on you". That seems like a dangerous advise at any time. "Label it GPL and it means it's not a trojan!"
[02:28] <jono> thanks mhall119, I am gonna post my blog
[02:28] <IdleOne> jono: my opinion don't count for much but I think your post was spot on.
[02:29] <bkerensa> IdleOne: your opinion does count
[02:29] <bkerensa> :)
[02:29] <jono> thanks IdleOne, I appreciate the feedback
[02:29] <jo-erlend> jono, publish your nice song as a torrent yet? :)
[02:29] <jono> jo-erlend, oh damn, sorry, not yet
[02:29] <jono> I will do that tomorrow
[02:29] <mhall119> bkerensa: I'm aware of only one reasonable privacy concern, and one possible but not overly reasonable one
[02:30] <jono> mhall119, what does "Seeded" mean?
[02:30] <jono> filled with content?
[02:30] <jo-erlend> jono, what was it called? I forget.
[02:30] <jono> jo-erlend, Unite
[02:30] <jo-erlend> :)
[02:30] <jono> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sPVPxvvcm4&list=UUCSOfLyd3PAGNJ8hpjytF3w&index=2
[02:30] <mhall119> jono: it means it only contains a copy/paste of existing content
[02:30] <jono> :-)
[02:30] <jono> mhall119, cool
[02:30] <jono> mhall119, might be worth adding a legend
[02:30] <jono> I will do that now
[02:30] <jono> I am gonna add a few edits
[02:30] <mhall119> ok
[02:31] <bkerensa> mhall119: 1. The privacy toggle does not work. 2. Keystrokes can be intercepted 3. Users are not informed
[02:31] <jo-erlend> jono, inspired me to buy a bass guitar. :)
[02:31] <jono> jo-erlend, sweet!
[02:31] <bkerensa> I need to learn the Banjo
[02:31] <bkerensa> :D
[02:32] <mhall119> bkerensa: 1. It works for what we ship, 2. We encrypt the query, 3. We have done nothing to hide what it happening from the user
[02:32] <mhall119> I understand that there is a possibility of reversing the search term by keystroke timing, but I consider that a very very remote possibility
[02:33] <jono> mhall119, would you mind redditing http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/12/09/improving-community-getting-involved-documentation/ ?
[02:33] <jono> bkerensa, Banjo is an awesome instrument
[02:33] <bkerensa> mhall119: 2. Yes you encrypt the query but anyone can redirect anyones queries on a lan/wlan to passthrough their own server and grab the queries.... 3. Sure nothing to hide but for someone who upgrades I think there is a great chance that they will not know about the feature until they see results in dash are are like "wat"
[02:34] <bkerensa> jono: http://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/14j1fl/improving_community_getting_involved/
[02:35] <jono> thanks bkerensa
[02:35] <mhall119> bkerensa beat me to it
[02:35] <mhall119> at least reddit was nice enough to tell me
[02:35] <bkerensa> mhall119: do you use Reddit Enhancement Suite?
[02:35] <mhall119> no
[02:35] <bkerensa> oh
[02:36] <bkerensa> mhall119: its pretty nice http://redditenhancementsuite.com/
[02:36] <mhall119> bkerensa: is there a bug for that redirecting possibility?
[02:37] <mhall119> that can probably be fixed just by checking the ssl cert
[02:38] <bkerensa> mhall119: unfortunately they use soup and I dont think it supports ssl cert verification
[02:38] <mhall119> soup?
[02:38] <bkerensa> mhall119: the music lens was not even using SSL not sure if they fixed it but I filed a bug on that awhile back
[02:38] <bkerensa> mhall119: libsoup its a HTTP client stack
[02:39] <bkerensa> https://live.gnome.org/LibSoup
[02:39] <mhall119> oh
[02:39] <bkerensa> its what the Shopping Lens uses
[02:39] <bkerensa> and Music lens
[02:39] <mhall119> bkerensa: we can do something on that end
[02:39] <bkerensa> mhall119: how about this one https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-lens-shopping/+bug/1073114
[02:39] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1073114 in unity-lens-shopping (Ubuntu Raring) "Shopping Lens Does Not Respect User Privacy" [High,Confirmed]
[02:39] <bkerensa> I guess Alan needs to look at it
[02:40] <bkerensa> apparently before Desktop will fix it product strategy has to approve it
[02:40] <mhall119> 3. is a question of how much we should annoy the user about the existence of a feature
[02:40] <bkerensa> mhall119: Annoying them and informing a user that your sharing data that was not previously shared is not the same thing
[02:41] <mhall119> bkerensa: that bug title probably causes people's eyes to gloss over and find something more detailed
[02:41] <bkerensa> I think the diligent thing to do is inform the user when you change practices in how their data is used or collected regardless of how harmless
[02:41] <jo-erlend> jono, ever heard Ulver - Kveldssanger? (Songs for the evening) think you'll like it; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75q3Xu80330
[02:41] <bkerensa> mhall119: you said gloss over that made me smile :)
[02:41] <jono> jo-erlend, cool, I have to run now, but will check it out tomorrow :-)
[02:42] <mhall119> bkerensa: honestly, I don't see a simple informative popup making anybody happy
[02:42] <jo-erlend> jono, better link; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3PRUmS012I
[02:42] <jo-erlend> but yes, do.
[02:42] <jono> ok, gotta run folks
[02:42] <jono> thanks all!
[02:42] <bkerensa> mhall119: a message during install and upgrade
[02:42] <bkerensa> mhall119: eyes gloss over = http://i.imgur.com/mXIjt.jpg ?
[02:44] <cjohnston> who reads the stuff during an install? who reads ToS?
[02:45] <jo-erlend> really need to get the Ubuntu-no@lists.ubuntu.com situation sorted out. Can someone help me with this?
[02:45] <bkerensa> cjohnston: I hope people do... its part of Testing so I imagine everyone who does QA does
[02:46] <cjohnston> ok, so you got a couple dozen users there
[02:46] <bkerensa> I mean its one of the requirements for ISO Testing and its how we have fixed bugs in ubiquity is by noticing odd stuff :)
[02:46] <jo-erlend> filed a ticket six months ago, but there's been no response and nobody knows who has it. I can't maintain it.
[02:47] <bkerensa> jo-erlend: whats the situation?
[02:47] <mhall119> cjohnston is right, it's just be an annoying EULA-like popup that will just hit "accept" without reading
[02:47] <cjohnston> Joe User does't read that stuff
[02:47] <mhall119> and nobody who is currently upset over the feature will be any happier
[02:47] <jo-erlend> bkerensa, it's owned by a gmail account that noone reads and I don't think anyone has access to it either.
[02:48] <bkerensa> jo-erlend: and you have a IS bug open?
[02:48] <mhall119> jo-erlend: email the loco-council, they should be able to help
[02:49] <jo-erlend> that's what I did. And I filed a request at the tracker for Canonical, I think, as czajkowski asked me to.
[02:49] <bkerensa> jo-erlend: do you have the id for the tracker? I can point it out to the IS manager next week at our BSP
[02:49] <bkerensa> it should only take a minute to switch
[02:50] <jo-erlend> I don't think I'll even bother looking for that now.
[02:50] <bkerensa> tiaz or mbarnett in #canonical-sysadmin could di ut
[02:50] <bkerensa> do it*
[02:50] <jo-erlend> there's no real hurry. The Loco isn't exactly active.
[02:52] <jo-erlend> I just want to enable it to be less dependent on individuals. That means the ability to transfer things like privileges.
[02:54] <mhall119> jo-erlend: may as well take care of it now, while you're thinking about it
[02:54] <jo-erlend> how? I went through all the motions. Nothing happened.
[02:56] <cjohnston> jo-erlend: if its https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=19674 its waiting on the loco council
[02:57] <jo-erlend> that's it.
[02:58] <jo-erlend> it's kinda difficult for me to create a sense of direction when I can't even manage the mailinglist. Other than that, there's no hurry.
[02:59] <cjohnston> jo-erlend: sounds like you need to bring it up with the LC.. per the ticket it has been waiting on them since May 1
[02:59] <jo-erlend> right.
[03:02] <jo-erlend> but that's upstream to me. I've set a quite firm limit on 15h/w.  I don't want to waste it on stuff like nagging about credentials.
[03:03] <jo-erlend> I did wait 4 weeks before that, you know, before I could file the ticket to begin with.
[03:09] <mhall119> bkerensa: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-lens-shopping/+bug/1055952 appears to have somebody working on it, that's the only serious privacy concern I'm aware of
[03:09] <ubot2> Launchpad bug 1055952 in unity-lens-shopping (Ubuntu) "Direct data leaking to Amazon" [High,Confirmed]
[03:10] <mhall119> besides what you just pointed out, about redirecting the query to a 3rd party server
[03:10] <mhall119> is there a bug specifically for that?
[03:11] <jo-erlend> 4! I need to sleep. Good night. :)
[03:11] <mhall119> g'night jo-erlend
[15:27] <cjohnston> mornin
[16:46] <pleia2> looks like jono took care of my work item for /community - I didn't even realize this was moving yet
[16:46] <mhall119> pleia2: just starting
[16:47] <pleia2> mhall119: my item was the write the outline ;)
[16:47] <mhall119> so far we only have an outline and copy/pasted content from the current pages
[16:47] <pleia2> I guess I haven't been paying attention to your meetings though, so I missed this
[16:47] <mhall119> it wasn't in the team meetings, it was just jono and I
[16:47] <pleia2> ah
[16:48] <mhall119> feel free to add/modify to the outline though
[16:49] <pleia2> yeah, I guess I'll just see what needs to be done when I get home (traveling this week for a conference)
[16:51] <mhall119> np, we're doing that doc-day this week if you can attend that
[16:52] <pleia2> no, I'm at a conference this week
[16:53] <pleia2> and that's the day I'm on a panel
[20:26] <czajkowski> jo-erlend: sorry we never saw that ticket have ack'd it now
[20:26] <czajkowski> usually poeple poke us a lot sooner ofver tose Rts
[20:26] <czajkowski> *those
[20:26] <czajkowski> sorry on phone