=== ClumsyFairyQueen is now known as Celene_away [07:18] Good Morning [07:31] good morning === RaringOne is now known as IdleOne [08:56] Aloha [12:04] balloons, do you think we should have a session about autopilot at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Timetable? [12:17] dpm: do you think we can do a join post on the launchpad blog calling for help for people to take over the translations team/answers on LP ? [12:22] czajkowski, that might work, yes, although traditionally folks have had more interest in managing the ubuntu translations questions rather than the launchpad ones [12:22] ah I seee [12:22] hmm [12:22] that would have been ok a long time ago when the squads looked after areas, now that isn't the same any more. so just trying to make sure it doesnt fall by the wayside [12:27] we can do a call for people to join the launchpad-translations-coordinators team. I think it's a good idea, I'm just trying to set the expectations, as Translations have been unmantained for quite a long time now, and translators have lost interest in Launchpad (except for translating Ubuntu). However, if a blog post can help reviving the LP Translations community, let's go for it. [12:29] dpm, hmm a question: How much translations must a person do to eligible to join the coordinators team then? [12:29] dpm: nods [12:29] I do the pot reviews every day thats fine [12:29] it was more just the adding new languages and questions I want to make sure is covered still. I do some but in case I'm not around [14:52] is anyone aware of 10" tablets that you can install ubuntu on? Only one I know is the smartq t20... [15:07] balloons, around? === jcastro__ is now known as jcastro_ [15:52] hey jono [15:53] hey jcastro_ [15:53] hey so I got invited to a call w/ design wrt. juju stuff, mind if I go first? [15:53] assuming we're going in 7 minutes [16:00] jcastro_, sure [16:00] dholbach, dpm, mhall119, balloons, jcastro_ meeting time! [16:00] weee! [16:00] do we have the meeting bot here? [16:00] #startmeeting [16:00] Meeting started Tue Dec 11 16:00:54 2012 UTC. The chair is jono. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [16:00] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired [16:00] woo! [16:00] ok! [16:01] welcome folks to the community team meeting [16:01] so normally we do the roundtable summaries of what each member of the team has been working on, and I figured we would spin through these and just provide some short summaries and then move onto agenda items [16:01] jcastro_, want to go first? [16:02] jono, yep, back again - just finished a hangout-on-air :) [16:02] sure, one sec [16:02] # Welcome to Jorge's Weekly IRC Report [16:02] This week's report brought to you by Africa: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP8m6mYRJiU [16:02] ## Doing [16:02] - Doc/website/charmweb reorganization still in process. This is bigger than I anticipated when I decided to Just Do It(tm). Oh well, at least it's better than it was before. Work in progress with design/IS/other Juju folks on next steps. [16:03] - Charms landing soon: [16:03] dholbach, :-) [16:03] - marcoceppi's mediawiki work [16:03] - marcoceppi's "add apache to wordpress" work [16:03] - Charms fixes from IS and across the board from Canonical in general [16:03] ** strategic pause ** [16:03] ## Done [16:03] - OID plugin for forums done, IS is deploying this now in test. Last I saw there were some problems with the templates needing to be fixed? Anyone know or look into this? [16:03] - Talk submitted for SCaLE 11x [16:03] - All Charm shows/conferences planned for 2k13 - AWW YEAH. [16:03] - Queue is in awesome shape, especially after getting crushed after UDS. [16:03] - Sent "State of the Juju" summary to -devel and -news, getting more info out to people who might not be following closely. [16:04] and finally: [16:04] ## TODO [16:04] - Doc reorged with evilnick, need to actually do that, but can't do it in a vacuum (dependencies on maas docs, what everyone else is doing so we don't have docs different from everyone else - docs make me want to stab bunnies.) [16:04] - "Queueify" nearly every charm process as part of the charm onramp. [16:04] - Need to follow up with mramm on a Pyramid charm [16:04] - Update OpenStack provider stuff. [16:04] - Redeploy juju.u.c on prodstack with mbarnett [16:04] - Mark Mims is now a member; this should bring more charm information to planet. [16:04] ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED? (Any questions?) [16:05] any questions for jcastro_? [16:05] no? [16:05] \o/ [16:06] ok, dholbach, want to go next? [16:06] \m/ [16:06] jono, dholbach just came from a hangout on air, I can go next [16:06] thanks dpm - still finishing some small bits in my notes [16:07] cool [16:07] go ahead dpm [16:07] ok, then if it's ok, I'll go for it [16:07] k [16:07] It's been a short week for me, as I've just come back from a long bank holiday. [16:08] Here are some highlights on what I spent some of my last week: [16:08] - Started setting up a staging djangosnippets.org instance to assess if it would work for the snippets section on d.u.c (still ongoing) [16:09] - Prepared some content updates for d.u.c (still ongoing) [16:09] - Worked with the Comms team to get more community participation in user stories [16:09] On that last one, we'll write a blog post with more info soon [16:10] but in the meantime, if you know anyone that uses Ubuntu for their professional work, do get them in touch with me [16:10] Other bits and pieces: [16:10] - Escalated bug 1045691 and bug 1081504 affecting Extras apps [16:10] Launchpad bug 1045691 in Ubuntu Apps Directory "Swapped short description and name for extras.u.c apps" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1045691 [16:10] Launchpad bug 1081504 in Ubuntu Apps Directory "Extras apps do not use the provided icon" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1081504 [16:10] - Documented how raw HTML docs are published on developer.ubuntu.com for jcastro and dholbach [16:11] - Helped aquarius a bit with some questions he had about the Quickly QtQuick template [16:11] And that's mostly it, short update this time. Any questions? [16:12] any questions for dpm? [16:13] ok [16:13] dholbach, ! [16:13] I can go now. :-) [16:13] yoohoo! [16:13] - Ubuntu Packaging Guide: available in Spanish and soon in Russian - see it in all its glory: developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/ - took over publishing the guide on developer.u.c from David [16:14] - Ubuntu Developer Week: planning started, schedule 50% filled, will happen end of January [16:14] - Automated Testing Hack fest: discussions, updated list of required tests, some more planning and announced for Thursday [16:14] - ubuntudev Hangouts: are getting more and more popular - last I interviewed Rick Spencer and Iain Lane, coming up: Didier Roche and Chris Wilson [16:15] - Bug fixing initiatives: wrote a script to get data from the lintian test runs automatically into Harvest, so we don't have to update wiki pages manually - we need some more small fixes in Harvest to makes this a little bit more effective though [16:15] - Nexus7 team: meetings, discussed memory consumption measurement, did quite a bit of testing myself - raring installs perfectly now [16:15] - Dev Advisory Team: business as usual, reaching out to contributors and helping them to put their dev applications together, published report about last cycle, planning how we deal with contributor data in the future, so we analyse less data manually [16:16] - +1 maintenance team: started discussions with Adam Conrad on how we can get more people involved in keeping ubuntu+1 working smoothly [16:16] The above were the bigger pieces of works, the rest were lots of small things here and there as usual. :) [16:16] Any questions? [16:17] any questions for dholbach? [16:18] balloons, you are up :-) [16:18] excellent [16:18] I've got no ascii art or other special effects atm, so boom, here we go [16:18] WORKING: [16:18] Working with many different folks on writing new testscases (autopilot and manual) ;-) [16:19] I've very happy to see everyone diving in on this, and look forward to showcasing some of the work in our next cadence week (no pressue) [16:19] Deployed revised testcases for iso -- more focused tests, with extra features split out to a specific testcase and removed from all tests (thanks to Carla for these) [16:19] there's still a bit more work here, but in general, the tests (while more focused and more of them), should be shorter and to the point [16:20] as of this morning, deploying new hardware testcases written by Sergio.. thanks mate [16:21] also, the next pieces of the autopilot guide are in the oven [16:21] and finally, Cadence Week 2 -- raring style is in full swing.. shotwell, network manager and the iso tests are all on the table [16:21] COMING SOON: [16:21] first pass at quality summary on qa dashboard [16:22] the qa dashboard itself landed last week, and it looks nice.. I'll be adding a pretty summary to make interperting things about quality easier [16:22] and finally I wanted to start mentioning the classroom series for QA we'll be doing in Janurary === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [16:23] Sessions on bugs, testing, and doing QA -- and you don't even have to listen to me. Many are being done by other community folks, ;-p [16:23] That's all folks! [16:24] where's the autopilot guide going to live? [16:24] dholbach, I would like to migrate it somewhere once completed.. need to talk with thomi about the overall documentation plan for autopilot [16:25] for now, I'm focused on simply getting documentation out [16:25] and of course, getting real world use! [16:25] sure [16:25] let's talk about it once you have all the content ready :) [16:25] (I'm open to ideas -- in fact, I need to ask you about lumping tests into packages) [16:25] balloons, any more status? [16:26] I'm status'd out methinks [16:26] ok [16:26] mhall119, you are up! [16:26] if mhall119 is here... [16:26] he said he might not make it [16:27] ok [16:27] I guess not :-) [16:27] * General [16:27] - Was on paternity leave for a few weeks. [16:27] - 13.04 plan looking good. Started to delve into the work items. [16:28] - Syncing up with team members after paternity. [16:28] * Community Website [16:28] - Working with Mike to get a canonistack instance up. [16:28] - Docs day scheduled for Thursday. [16:28] * Events: [16:28] - General prep for CES. [16:28] - Planning participation at the next UDS, sprints and some other conferences. [16:28] * Privacy Concerns [16:28] - Raising the concerns internally and trying to get a better response out of Canonical. [16:28] - Responding to press enquiries. [16:28] * Juju [16:29] - Reaching out to businesses to encourage Juju adoption. [16:29] - Syncing up internally around charm QA drive. [16:29] * LoCos: [16:29] - Started to get things rolling to help LoCo teams. [16:29] - Call with Randall Ross on Friday. [16:29] - Meeting with the team to identify LoCo participation in team work. [16:29] - Coordinated with Daniel around the ADK - keen to discuss this in the meeting. [16:29] * Accomplishments: [16:29] - Server is provisioneed by IS. [16:29] - Working with Mike today to get the instructions written ready for IS to deploy. [16:29] any questions? [16:30] alright [16:30] any agenda items to discuss? [16:30] I'm all set. [16:31] I've no items this week [16:31] ok, I wanted to discuss LoCo Teams [16:31] czajkowski, are you here? [16:31] rrnwexec, are you here too? [16:31] present :) [16:31] cool :-) [16:31] <-- on stand up with boss [16:31] czajkowski, np [16:32] so I think we can do a better job helping to support our LoCo Teams to do great work [16:32] and when I say "we", I mean my team [16:32] but I think we need to work with our wider community to help do this [16:32] one concern I have is communication [16:32] I don't really see much communication on loco-contacts [16:33] and that list was primarily intended for support and teams helping each other [16:33] I wanted to suggest we direct people to Ask Ubuntu [16:33] jcastro_, are LoCos using Ask Ubuntu much? [16:33] What kind of communication would we like to see? Inter-team discussions? Announcements? Conference reports? [16:33] i think they are using it, but not in the context of LoCo related (organizing events, projects, etc) work [16:34] rrnwexec, right [16:34] it seems there are a few types of comms: [16:34] 1. general chatter about the community [16:34] 2. asking questions about how to do things [16:34] 3. presenting things the team has done [16:34] my inclination is that for 1. we have IRC and lists [16:35] for 2. we recommend people use Ask Ubuntu with a tag [16:35] and 3. we discuss the best way to raise the profile of work that people are doing [16:35] jono: there's a tag, but not often [16:35] jcastro_, ok gotcha [16:35] AskUbuntu could be great, as general tips for making an event rock won't change much over time [16:35] dholbach, exactly [16:35] and Ask Ubuntu has a good following of users and is indexed on the web [16:36] jono: in regards to ask ubuntu -- we had tried to build in some ability for LoCos to detect people using aksubuntu in their area, but I am not sure if that has been completed [16:36] the attempts I worked on with jcastro_ did not work out as planned -- using the query engine [16:36] http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/locoteams [16:36] cprofitt, I mean more that people ask general questions and our general community responds on there [16:36] there's good content there already [16:36] it's just not as used as it could be [16:37] so this seems a simple thing we can try out [16:37] though, remember AU is english only, LoCos aren't [16:37] that would be outstanding cprofitt. we've experimented with that here (vancouver) on Launchpad Answers by inserting the word Vancouver in our questions [16:37] jcastro_, this is true, but our current resources and docs are english too [16:37] * jcastro_ nods [16:37] and as a result that has built up a small, local tech support team [16:37] I was just pointing it out [16:37] yup [16:37] jono: I understand -- I think the loco teams do point people there, but if there was a way for me to see the people that identified themselves as being in my LoCo area it would help me plan events that aligned with the issues users were having [16:37] cprofitt, ahhh I see [16:38] cprofitt, that would be cool [16:38] Are we writing off the LoCo forums, then? [16:38] jcastro_, you know that thing you showed me where AU questions are embedded in a site.... [16:38] I wonder if we could do that on loco.ubuntu.com [16:38] skellat, not writing off anything [16:38] jono: we got close the query engine, but had some false data results.... [16:38] yea, the stacktack, it's just JS [16:38] skellat, just identifying the most likely avenue of support [16:38] I think the goal was to add the latest questions to loco.ubuntu.com if we got it working well. [16:39] Okay jono [16:39] skellat, the challenge here I think is that we point people to some resources with not many folks to answer questions [16:39] e.g. loco-contacts doesn't get much traffic [16:39] whereas Ask Ubuntu is generally really good for getting responses [16:39] and mailing lists aren't indexed, etc. [16:39] and the responses are editing and almost become articles [16:40] so I have another question for input on [16:40] the real challenge in my list above I think is (3) [16:40] how do we raise the visability of great work going on the community/ [16:40] ? [16:40] I agree jono [16:40] now, we did add a feature to loco.ubuntu.com to show blog posts [16:41] but I am wondering if it would make more sense to simply point people to reddit [16:41] on (3), a weekly showcase would help. and opening up the loco.ubuntu.com more widely would too [16:41] ideally we want some kind of planet ubuntu type site for great loco work [16:41] A big part of raising visibility is going people to open up and tell what they've been doing. We've been having trouble with that in Ohio where folks have been hiding their lights, so to say. [16:41] right now the loco. site is fairly closed, no? [16:42] No" [16:42] rrnwexec: I would not call it closed [16:42] it's nto closed at all [16:42] who can post to it? [16:42] it is not closed in that people can add feeds, but you need to have your feed added [16:42] it is not open in the same way reddit is [16:42] yes but adding a feed takes all of 2 seconds [16:42] skellat, totally agree [16:42] I think there is pretty good ability to add certain types of content to the loco page, the issue is more a lack of developers to create 'new' features... I am happy with what I am able to do on the loco page [16:43] czajkowski, right, but I am wondering why we don't just point people at /r/Ubuntu [16:43] and have no issues opening the page up to additoinal members of mine [16:43] and then we get the general Ubuntu crowd viewing the posts too [16:43] just an idea [16:43] not everyone reads reddit [16:43] me I rarely do, others do [16:43] * cprofitt nods in agreement with czajkowski [16:43] czajkowski, not every reads l.u.c :-) [16:43] could loco.u.c get a "feed" from reddit? [16:43] I would argue that more people read reddit [16:44] but I have no evidence on that [16:44] jono, east of the Mississippi Reddit gets fairly inaccessible whenever bad weather strikes Amazon's data centers in Virginia. For me it is down more often than up. [16:44] maybe but also find a lot of reddit is jsut spam [16:44] czajkowski, really? [16:44] that hasn't been my experience [16:44] yeah [16:44] i find the dialtone on Reddit to be quite negative [16:44] and if there is spam it gets downvoted [16:44] wherever we want good content to live we will need a way of flagging something as "awesome loco content", right? [16:44] I almost never read reddit [16:44] there are definitely some muppets on reddit, rrnwexec :-) [16:44] I've also had this disussion with others via twitter and seemingly it depends on the community, but from my experience it's a bit crap [16:44] we call it "Ribbit" locally ;) [16:44] anyways back to work [16:45] the benefit of loco.ubuntu.com is that it is branded [16:45] is everyone agreed that something pre-existing should be embraced as opposed to making another feed? [16:45] i think we're on the right track with loco.ubuntu.com, but feel it needs more life and zing. [16:45] or perhaps not [16:45] the disadvantage is that there is no discussion there [16:45] can we insert a discussion widget? [16:45] jono: What sort of discussion would you like, though? [16:46] would it not end up in the same circular disussion [16:46] skellat, I think it would be awesome if posts on l.u.c had a small disqus widget so our community can discuss the post [16:46] +1 [16:47] who will moderate the discussion [16:47] so maybe we have another push on l.u.c and see what we can do [16:47] (I'd prefer more activity on l.u.c personally) [16:47] czajkowski, usually people self moderate with the ratings [16:47] like any other disqus site [16:47] I would like to see traffice increased to l.u.c as well... that way events become more visible [16:47] so I think we should push l.u.c and see what we can do there [16:47] i think moderation is a secondary concern. if the content shows up and people get excited, the moderators will step-forward to help [16:47] add a disqus widget to each post and encourage more feeds on there [16:48] rrnwexec, agreed [16:48] I will see if I can rope mhall119 into adding the widget [16:48] I will bribe him with BBQ [16:48] is there a way to add feeds to each loco team or just the main site? [16:48] cprofitt, sure, if a loco has a news feed [16:49] czajkowski, how do feeds get added? [16:49] and who can add them? the LC? [16:49] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoPortalFeeds [16:49] I guess what I would like to see, for a team, is the ability to add feeds that just show up on the NY team site. [16:49] ok, so the LC [16:50] cool [16:50] perhaps allowing some folks that are part of the team to have their blogs visible on the team page [16:50] cprofitt, that seems pretty simple [16:50] as the feed in the system is associated with a team [16:50] see how the posts on l.u.c show the team associated [16:50] it'd be great if we could flag certain posts as being interesting [16:50] it should be simple to show those feeds on the team page [16:50] dholbach, totally [16:50] or maybe blogs with a certain tag [16:50] we could also add google+ feeds to l.u.c the code is actually there its just nobody has had time to review it https://bugs.launchpad.net/loco-team-portal/+bug/996140 [16:50] Launchpad bug 996140 in LoCo Team Portal "Google+ Post Aggregation via Javascript" [Undecided,In progress] [16:50] dholbach, maybe a "thankyou" button [16:50] sorry, blog posts with a certain tag [16:51] so we don't get "everything X writes about" but just "cool LoCo stuff X blogs about" [16:51] I agree with you folks, I think l.u.c is the place to do this [16:51] dholbach +1 [16:51] dholbach, we already do that [16:51] dholbach, we ask folks to set up feeds for a tag for just loco posts [16:51] I think of two members I have that are not Ubuntu members, but they blog [16:52] ah ok [16:52] it would be cool to have people going to http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-us-ny to see their stuff [16:52] cprofitt, you don't have to be an ubuntu member on l.u.c [16:52] ignore me then :) [16:52] cprofitt, that should be simple to do [16:52] jono: I know... but not sure people in another team would want to see their stuff [16:52] ok, so it sounds like the following we need to do: [16:52] * add disqus comments on posts [16:52] * grow the number of feeds [16:52] * show team posts on the team page [16:53] you folks mind if I raise another topic? [16:53] as an aside: i'm still disappointed in this response to Vancouver's feed: "Denied (added indirectly via ubuntu-ca - sorry!) (prt)" Can someone fix that? It's hard to be excited when shut down ;) [16:53] (is there a way to integrate with Picasa as well outside of an individual address on l.u.c) [16:53] rrnwexec, what was that? [16:54] maybe we should file bugs on loco.u.c after this meeting [16:54] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoPortalFeeds <-- just found it here [16:54] does that mean the content appears as part of the feed from ubuntu-ca? [16:54] there is no content coming out of there as far as i know [16:55] rrnwexec, if the content is duplicated I agree we shouldnt have two feeds, but if not, then it should be fine to add that feed IMHO [16:55] we can resolve offline though. let's keep the meeting moving :) [16:55] ok cool [16:55] so a quick topic: [16:55] a little while back I suggested the idea of an advocacy development kit [16:55] which is: [16:56] * a downloadable zip file including all the logos, posters, documentation and advice you need to perform advocacy [16:56] * this could be shared with people easily [16:56] * it can be available in your own language [16:56] I think we need another meeting to discuss this more, but is anyone interested in helping out with it? [16:56] it would basically involve writing documentation and assembling great content [16:57] I figured we will put together a first cut and see if it works [16:57] Would this be like an official kit with content different from that on spreadubuntu? [16:57] you should be able to branch lp:ubuntu-adk and just add new content by just proposing a branch - it's also instantly translatable in LP [16:58] kind of like the 'media kits' games have for fans? [16:58] bkerensa, the idea is that it will take the very best bits from spreadubuntu...a few posters, a few banners etc [16:58] kind of how Ubuntu ships a default text editor but you can get more in the USC [16:58] the ADK would ship a few posters and point to SU for more [16:58] but the idea is that it makes it really simple for someone to get started [16:59] and provides a fun project we as a LoCo community can contribute to [16:59] nice [16:59] :-) [16:59] dholbach, put together a first cut [16:59] I will put up a blog entry about the idea today [16:59] I think it could be pretty awesome [16:59] and other projects could use it too [16:59] so to save some work on the documentation part it might be an idea to take some of the Ubuntu Leadership Documentation covering events and use that to help [17:00] bkerensa, oh totally [17:00] we would port most of the docs to the ADK [17:00] bkerensa, yes and some docs from the wiki.u.c/LoCo name space [17:00] yeah [17:00] which then gets us the benefit that people can translate them and have their own language ADK if they want [17:00] yes yes yes! :) [17:00] what format would documentation be in? PDF or Text Files? [17:00] I guess thats a little to technical at this point :) [17:00] the basic idea is that the adk branch in LP is where the source content is and when you run 'make' it spits out ADKs for each languagte [17:00] sounds like a great idea [17:01] we can generate all of them, but HTML might be best in the beginning [17:01] bkerensa, it is in restructured text as source but it spits out HTML and could spit out a PDF [17:01] I like the idea that it generates both HTML for online viewing and a PDF for an e-book reader [17:01] Ubuntu California has something like an ADK and Oregon kind of copied them to some degree [17:01] we just dont have doc [17:01] bkerensa, oh sweet [17:01] bkerensa, so maybe we could collaborate around this centrally [17:01] sorry, I have to run to a meeting [17:01] I will schedule another specific ADK meeting later this week [17:01] and then we can delve into it more [17:02] #endmeeting === meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-community-team to: Work Items: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-community.html || Don't forget to "flesh them out a little bit" || Community Trello: http://goo.gl/n4or5 (experiment) || Things to work on (in order): work items || dpm's channel: http://goo.gl/o2IR5 [17:02] Meeting ended Tue Dec 11 17:02:02 2012 UTC. [17:02] Minutes (wiki): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-community-team/2012/ubuntu-community-team.2012-12-11-16.00.moin.txt [17:02] Minutes (html): http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-community-team/2012/ubuntu-community-team.2012-12-11-16.00.html [17:02] thanks for joining everyone! [17:02] thanks a bunch! [17:02] s/meeting/warm hotdogs :) [17:03] jono, I filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-adk/+bug/1088993 - you might want to jump in and add your ideas [17:03] Launchpad bug 1088993 in Ubuntu Advocacy Development Toolkit "Change directory structure within .zip files" [Undecided,New] [17:03] dholbach: BSP on Sunday :) [17:03] bkerensa, yep, read about it :) [17:04] all right my friends - I'll have to rush now, have to catch a train to Berlin :) [17:04] see you all tomorrow [17:04] dholbach, will do [17:04] dholbach: gnight [17:04] dholbach, do you have time for a two min call? [17:04] just before you run? [17:04] jono, yes, give me a second [17:04] dholbach, thanks [17:05] sure [17:05] dholbach, invite sent [17:12] all right my friends [17:12] see you around [17:13]