[00:47] <ttoine> len-1304, what are you testing ? raring ?
[00:47] <len-1304> yes
[00:48] <ttoine> len-1304, a daily build ?
[00:48] <len-1304> I am trying to figure out what has happened with the ms core fonts.
[00:48] <len-1304> todays build
[00:49] <len-1304> It says the font installer is installed, but I don't think the fonts are
[00:49] <len-1304> At least I didn't "Accept" the terms...
[00:49] <ttoine> perhaps you should try to reconfigure it
[00:50] <ttoine> did you use apt-get, aptitude, or synaptic to instal ms core fonts ?
[00:52] <len-1304> I didn't use any. The 32bit version of Ustudio comes with wine.
[00:52] <len-1304> LMMS pulls it in.
[00:54] <len-1304> It seems though, that there are some non-ms fonts are included with office anyway, maybe by default.
[00:54] <len-1304> I just want to make sure we are legal :)
[01:00] <len-1304> ttoine, Found my answer. The ISO installs the font installer but declines the licence.
[01:01] <len-1304> A note in the font directory says I just have to reinstall the font installer to get the fonts.
[01:01] <ttoine> len-1304, I think that some fonts come installed for wine and lmms
[01:02] <len-1304> Yes but not from MS. They are "look alikes"
[01:03] <len-1304> It is a package called fonts-liberation and has Times, Arial and Courier fonts
[01:05] <ttoine> o
[01:06] <ttoine> len-1304, is it a way to force install in the iso ?
[01:11] <len-1304> No, because the user can not then accept the licence before install as required.
[01:12] <len-1304> Or, the live ISO would have to ask if the licence was accepted and if not refuse to run.
[01:12] <len-1304> It is good as is.
[01:30] <ttoine> len-1304, is it a problem if the fonts are missing ?
[01:30] <ttoine> I mean, for applications needing it
[01:31] <len-1304> I'm not sure, but I don't think the VSTs need them.
[01:33] <len-1304> wine will have a theme that sets sys default fonts to one of the three we do have. So it would only be something like word, but then word should default to Times, And be willing to use any font installed.
[01:35] <len-1304> ttoine, the mscore fonts installer suggests "NOTE: the package fonts-liberation contains free variants of the Times, Arial and Courier fonts. It's better to use those instead unless you specifically need one of the other fonts from this package."
[01:36] <ttoine> len-1304, and this package is installed in Ubuntu Studio ?
[01:36] <len-1304> Yes, by default
[01:36] <ttoine> so the matter is more for tahoma and verdana fonts
[01:37] <len-1304> Though I am not sure if it would be if LMMS was not.
[01:37] <len-1304> Ya it is for the extra fonts.
[01:37] <ttoine> but I am not sure that tahoma is in msttcorefonts
[01:38] <ttoine> the problem of lmms can maybe be solved
[01:38] <len-1304> LMMS is fine.
[01:38] <ttoine> I think it is time for me to go do what I am best for : go kick the a** of some developper or packager
[01:39] <len-1304> Well it works anyway. I guess the 64bit version doesn't do winVSTs though.
[01:39] <ttoine> maybe we can fix the lmms package and drop off msttcorefonts from the iso
[01:39]  * len-1304 doesn't have a 64bit machine to play with.
[01:39]  * ttoine too for tests
[01:40] <len-1304> It isn't LMMS that asks for them, but wine.
[01:40] <ttoine> maybe the question will be idiot... but why do we need Wine on the iso ? 
[01:41] <ttoine> it is a dependency of lmms ?
[01:41] <len-1304> LMMS uses wine to load some VST plugins
[01:41] <ttoine> and lmms is not a restricted package ??
[01:42] <len-1304> I guess not... at least we seem to be allowed to add it to the ISO. I think the only restricted part is the MS core fonts.
[01:42] <len-1304> And we don't use them.
[01:43] <len-1304> With the fonts-liberation package from red hat we don't really need them.
[01:44] <ttoine> there is a licence problem with the vst api...
[01:45] <ttoine> or maybe they did there own librairy without the steinberd one ?
[02:02] <ttoine> there / their
[02:02] <Len-nb> I don't know.
[02:19] <Len-nb> ttoine, looking at the dssi-vst page it seems there are two versions, one uses the  Steinberg VST SDK, but the normal build does not use it by default.
[02:20] <Len-nb> So there are open/free SDK/libs out there.
[02:20] <Len-nb> wine is only needed for the gui.
[02:22] <ttoine> len-1304, thanks. I didn't know that there was a free sdk
[12:52] <zequence> Len-nb: I think it should be possible to do the same thing with the fonts, as Ubuntu does with mp3. Add a toggle at some part of the installation
[12:53] <zequence> Also, I'm thinking it should be possible to add the VST SDK in a non free repo. Or the "partner" repo. 
[12:54] <zequence> It's probably possible to add all the non free stuff that people want. 
[12:55] <falktx> no, you can't add the vst sdk
[12:55] <falktx> it's not redistributable
[12:57] <zequence> hmm, it's not easy to download from their site, right?
[12:58] <zequence> falktx: ^
[13:00] <falktx> you have to sign an agreement
[13:00] <zequence> Ah yea. I saw that now
[13:00] <falktx> that is, if you use it
[13:03] <zequence> falktx: But there's no restrictions distributing software that was built with the SDK though?
[13:03] <zequence> There's just the problem of redistributing the code
[13:03] <zequence> And in this case, the resulting package would be non free
[13:03] <falktx> not sure
[13:03] <falktx> the only problem is gpl code, where it needs the full source per license
[13:04] <falktx> lgpl code has no issues with it
[13:07] <zequence> falktx: The full source of the GPL part of the code, no? (I haven't looked very thoroughly into this yet)
[13:08] <zequence> The source package would contain everything, except one folder would be empty, namely the Steinberg VST SDK
[13:09] <zequence> I need to look more at the Steingberg license too
[13:15] <zequence> I guess only if the non free part of the code was built into its own blob all together
[13:16] <zequence> Not including any GPL code at all
[13:32] <smartboyhw> Uh why aren't we getting linux-lowlatency updates after v3.7 kernel is released?
[13:34] <zequence> smartboyhw: Probably just late
[13:34] <smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
[13:34] <smartboyhw> len-1304, good that you tested the daily images.
[13:34] <smartboyhw> I will be away starting from Monday till around 15th January, need to prepare for the exams
[14:12] <len-1304> zequence, it seems fonts are not an issue for wine any more.
[14:13] <smartboyhw> len-1304, :D
[14:13] <len-1304> Good morning smartboyhw 
[14:13] <smartboyhw> len-1304, good evening (10:13 PM here)
[14:13] <zequence> len-1304: You meant that lmms installs without the fonts?
[14:13] <len-1304> aye
[14:14] <len-1304> Yes
[14:14]  * smartboyhw seriously doesn't understand why the Ubuntu HK LoCo's website is still showing banners of Ubuntu 10.10
[14:14] <smartboyhw> len-1304, anyway to get the fonts back?
[14:14] <len-1304> wine installs some fake windows like fonts made by red hat
[14:15] <zequence> len-1304: Ah yea. It was never an issue with lmms, but with wine then
[14:15] <len-1304> smartboyhw, just force reinstall the font installer
[14:15] <zequence> I know wine is replacing a lot of Win libs as well
[14:15] <smartboyhw> len-1304, hmm that is bad
[14:15] <zequence> Or some, I don't really know 
[14:16] <smartboyhw> New users probably will cry that they will need to force reinstall it
[14:16] <len-1304> smartboyhw, why? most people don't need the MS fonts.
[14:16] <smartboyhw> len-1304, oh?
[14:16] <len-1304> wine tries to replace all the win libs, it always has.
[14:17] <len-1304> but it will use dlls if they are there. and the user asks to.
[14:18] <len-1304> smartboyhw, wine installs it's own fonts for the three most used windows fonts so that the windows desktop themes etc. will work.
[14:18] <smartboyhw> OK then:D
[14:18] <len-1304> They have the same "metrics"
[14:20] <zequence> I just know that recently I had to replace a wine lib with a windows lib, cause it didn't work properly
[14:20] <len-1304> micahg, I actually found some time to create the last two missing Icons we needed. So my changes to -icon-theme and -settings is complete.
[14:21] <zequence> len-1304: Did you merge -settings yet?
[14:21] <len-1304> zequence, yes there are programs that need the real dll.
[14:21] <len-1304> which merge?
[14:21] <zequence> The released version was ahead of our bzr branch with one commit
[14:21] <zequence> Thanks to smartboyhw 
[14:21] <smartboyhw> zequence, len-1304 did
[14:21] <len-1304> ya, I did that before I started
[14:22] <zequence> Alright :)
[14:22]  * smartboyhw wonders if he should hide into a hole now:P
[14:23] <zequence> smartboyhw: It's good to make mistakes. Then we can see if in fact it was a mistake or not
[14:23] <len-1304> It kinda feels like I am in a hole right now anyway.
[14:23] <zequence> Sometimes, it's just doing things differently
[14:23] <smartboyhw> len-1304, uh?
[14:24] <len-1304> smartboyhw, my computer is in the basement... and it's kinda cool down here.
[14:24] <smartboyhw> len-1304, oh
[14:24] <zequence> I'm in a basement myself
[14:24] <zequence> Not that bad. It's cold outside, but not in here :P
[14:24] <smartboyhw> Good I'm on the 28th floor:P
[14:24] <zequence> smartboyhw: You probably never even seen snow
[14:24] <len-1304> zequence, we try not to use heat where we don't need it.
[14:25] <zequence> I think HK can be up to 30C even in December
[14:25] <smartboyhw> zequence, you're wrong. I did see snow when I go travel to in Korea. 
[14:25] <len-1304> Anyway, I need to go
[14:25] <smartboyhw> zequence, what? HK can't possibly reach 30C in December
[14:25] <smartboyhw> Now is around 20C
[14:25] <zequence> hehe
[14:25] <smartboyhw> Last week it got to 13C!
[14:25] <zequence> We had about -20 a few days ago
[14:26] <zequence> Now it's only about -5
[14:26] <smartboyhw> zequence, oh
[14:26] <zequence> I was just out running. Snow everywhere, and gravel on top, to help people from not falling
[14:26] <smartboyhw> zequence, gee
[14:59] <len-1304> blender crashes my session (kills X I would guess). Can other people test this please?
[14:59] <smartboyhw> len-1304, uh?
[14:59] <len-1304> It may just be my hardware
[15:00] <len-1304> When I start blender I get a black screen and a login screen
[15:00] <len-1304> I will do a bug report after work.
[15:01] <smartboyhw> len-1304, well at least I didn't crash
[15:11] <zequence> len-1304: proprietary graphics driver?
[15:15] <zequence> len-1304: Works for me on two machines. One with nvidia proprietary (amd64), one with nouveau (32bit)
[21:19] <len-1304> zequence, I have 32bit with nouveau. Did you try it with 13.04?
[21:21] <len-1304> zequence, nouveau is yet again better than 12.10 BTW... or maybe the boot sequence is different.
[21:24] <len-1304> zequence, I see we are back to "files" instead of nautilus.
[21:24] <holstein> maybe we should just go to thunar
[21:24] <holstein> i think nautilus is changing too much for ubuntu proper to use it
[21:24] <holstein> something is going to happen up there, and maybe we should just go with xubuntu on it
[21:25] <len-1304> Thunar has crashed too many times on me.
[21:25] <holstein> me too :/
[21:25] <len-1304> I don't consider it reliable.
[21:25] <holstein> i was a big advocate of nautilus in US
[21:25] <len-1304> It often crashes when I dismount a drive for example.
[21:26] <len-1304> I don't have anything against files, it seems to be better than when last I met it.
[21:26] <len-1304> At least it has an about box so I know what application I am running.
[21:30] <len-1304> I just wish the name of the application "files" matched the name of the binary... and the name of the package.
[21:32] <len-1304> It makes it so much easier to do bug reports.
[21:33] <holstein> this is news to me
[21:33] <holstein> i didnt know we had a "files"
[21:33] <len-1304> 13.04
[21:34] <holstein> is that the answer to nautilus going a differnent direction?
[21:34] <holstein> is ubuntu making that?
[21:34] <len-1304> We had it for a bit in 12.10, but went back to an older nautilus before release.
[21:35] <len-1304> I think Files is nautilus' new direction
[21:35] <len-1304> Files is a debian thing
[21:35] <len-1304> Kind of like chromium
[21:36] <holstein> cool
[21:37] <len-1304> It's not new, they do things like that in other places. Their browser is called one thing for a package name, but once installed is just "browser"
[21:38] <len-1304> Anyway, I just did the daily upgrade and am going to try out blender again to see if it still crashes :P
[21:38] <len-1304> So I might vanish
[21:40] <len-1304> Blender still kills x on me
[21:43] <holstein> :/
[21:44] <holstein> len-1304: just thats certain graphics device/driver ?
[21:45] <len-1304> I don't know. How many people are trying the dailies?
[21:45] <holstein> i havent been
[21:55] <zequence> len-1304: As I mentioned earlier, Ubuntu decided to revert back to an earlier version of nautilus for 12.10, since people got a bit shocked by the sudden changes. It
[21:55] <zequence> The package is still called nautilus, but the gui name is Files
[21:55] <zequence> Gnome is changing all their apps to have those names
[21:56] <zequence> Just like iPhoto, Gnome3 now has an app called Photo
[21:56] <len-1304> Ya, no complaintsreally it works ok anyway and is easy enough to use.
[21:56] <zequence> Actually, I'm on 12.04 on the 32 bit
[21:56] <zequence> But, on 13.04 on the amd64
[21:56] <zequence> I remember you had a crash with blender before too though
[21:56] <zequence> On 12.10
[21:57] <len-1304> I don't remember... but then I wouldn't :)
[21:58] <zequence> One thing I miss about the recent nautilus is no more tree structure
[21:58] <len-1304> Anyway it is bug #1090570 
[21:58] <zequence> I wish they would keep these things as config options at least
[22:00] <len-1304> I can't find tree view.
[22:00] <zequence> They've removed some features recently
[22:00] <holstein> yup.. thats out
[22:01] <zequence> I can understand minimizing the gui interface, but please, do not remove working features. Leave them as options in advanced settings
[22:01] <len-1304> It would be nice if they used the theme icons for the side panel too
[22:02] <zequence> At least they've kept tabs
[22:02] <zequence> If they took that out, it would start being really ridiculous
[22:02] <zequence> If you ever used Finder on OSX, it makes you feel it's treating you as an idiot
[22:02] <holstein> lol
[22:02] <zequence> Pretty much the same on explorer
[22:03] <holstein> zequence: i hate that you cant even close it with the keyboard shortcuts to close an application
[22:03] <holstein> like its not an application
[22:03] <len-1304> I would already feel like an idiot after I looked at the hole in my wallet
[22:03] <zequence> holstein: What do you mean? Ctrl+Q?
[22:03] <holstein> the idea of a application used to browse files is too complex for me to handle ;)
[22:03] <holstein> zequence: i cant remember.. its been a while, but something like that
[22:04] <zequence> Oh, you're talking about Finder. Yeah, they don't have all the "common" shortcuts
[22:04] <zequence> Even vlc doesn't have fullscreen with the F button
[22:04] <zequence> on OSX, that is
[22:04] <len-1304> The idea is that the user will buy something better...
[22:04] <holstein> odd
[22:06] <zequence> maybe one should start using gnome mail lists to talk about these things
[22:07] <zequence> It's not like they can't change things back
[22:07] <holstein> i dont think they care
[22:07] <holstein> they are talking about gnomeOS
[22:08] <zequence> Sure they care. Just a matter of who makes the decisions though
[22:08] <zequence> All gnome mail lists https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo
[22:08] <zequence> nautilus mail list https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/nautilus-list
[22:11] <zequence> Not exactly high traffic
[22:14] <zequence> So, I wonder where the developers do their talking..
[22:15] <holstein> i mean, i dont think they are going back
[22:16] <zequence> They will, if there's a reason to
[22:16] <zequence> Right now they're doing lots of big changes
[22:17] <zequence> Whenever there's a single UI change, someone will scream
[22:17] <zequence> So, I think they anticipate that
[22:18] <zequence> Cause some changes probably were to the better, no matter what the oldtimers thought at first
[22:18] <holstein> sure.. someone will probably argue that tree-view removal and make it sound like you are an old-timer
[22:18] <zequence> I'm just wondering how their development communication works, and why it seems their community interaction is so poor on the mail lists
[22:20] <zequence> This one seems to have a bit more traffic. The desktop-devel list https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
[22:21] <zequence> Here's a thread that may be a normality this year https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2012-July/msg00016.html
[22:23] <zequence> Personally, i can't find any other bad feature removes, other then treeview
[22:23] <zequence> That doesn't make any at all sense to me, why removing it is for the better
[22:24] <zequence> There's nothing to replace it
[22:24] <zequence> There's no other way of using the application, where you can get the same functionality
[22:25] <zequence> Most other changes have just been cosmetic.
[22:55] <len-1304> holstein, zequence the one place thunar was crashing on me doesn't any more.
[22:57] <len-1304> Tree view seems to work fine.
[22:58] <zequence> I'm guessing everyone is for returning to Thunar?
[22:58] <zequence> holstein: ^
[22:59] <len-1304> Not yet. I want to run it for a few weeks as a daily file manager.
[22:59] <zequence> len-1304: I don't have treeview
[22:59] <len-1304> whatever else I have to say about nautilus, it has been solid for me.
[22:59] <zequence> That's in the folder view
[23:00] <len-1304> Ok, maybe I;m missing something.
[23:00] <len-1304> I'll have to look at an older version of nautilus
[23:01] <zequence> For me, the sidepane doesn't matter much, though I think some people will want to have treeview there
[23:01] <zequence> If there's at least that, then it's something
[23:01] <len-1304> I was just assuming that was what you were talking about
[23:01] <len-1304> I have never looked close at nautilus, just used default.
[23:02] <zequence> In previous nautilus versions you have a plus button next the folder. Clicking it would expand it and show its' contents
[23:03] <len-1304> Sounds nice.
[23:03] <zequence> Very useful when looking for something from a "root" folder
[23:03] <zequence> Of course, you can do that from a terminal too
[23:03] <zequence> Which is what I do more and more these days
[23:04] <zequence> What you'd do now is right click on a folder, have it open in another tab, or another window. And then move up and down it, while keeping the "root" folder open in the original nautilus window
[23:05] <zequence> If what you want is to keep track of where you were originally
[23:05] <zequence> It's also a nice way to be able to move content from folder to folder
[23:05] <zequence> I mean, using the treeview
[23:05] <len-1304> Ya.
[23:06] <zequence> But, mainly I was using it for browsing, if I didn't know what I was looking for
[23:06] <len-1304> Some of the browsers are like that for managing bookmarks.
[23:15] <Len-nb> zequence, so the tree view you mean is a part of list mode.... looking at 12.04 here.
[23:18] <zequence> Len-nb: Ah, yeah
[23:18] <zequence> I only ever use the list mode
[23:18] <zequence> Can't find jack in icon mode