/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/12/17/#ubuntu-community-team.txt

jo-erlendI wonder if rms understands why Ubuntu is personal to me. I came to Ubuntu from Fedora Core, but I've never left their point of view. I'll happily fight for complete software freedom, but I wonder if he even understands why I choose to be pragmatic in my communication. He has certainly made my job a lot more difficult. And that job is to make it easy for people to tell others how to choose GNU/Linux.01:22
jo-erlendI think the ADK is a good step in the right direction, but it's still poor. Give me templates for drupal, for instance. Have a look at what I'm struggling with: http://ubuntu.no/ nobody is enticed by that, no matter how well the articles are written.01:24
mhall119jo-erlend: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-community-webthemes/light-drupal-theme01:29
mhall119not sure how maintained that one is though01:29
mhall119the ADK is brand-new, and can certainly use more contributions if you've got some01:30
cjohnstonI believe that its pretty good01:30
mhall119jo-erlend: you might also reach out to the ubuntu-br loco team, they have a nice drupal theme: http://www.ubuntu-br.org/01:31
jo-erlendmhall119, the thing that annoys me tremendously, is that I can go into any bar and ask if anyone is using Android and someone will start telling me about Ubuntu, but when I ask my loco how many people are familiar with LP and Ubuntu SSO, nobody responds.01:31
mhall119that shouldn't annoy you, not all users will ever need Launchpad, and Ubuntu SSO blends in with other Ubuntu properties01:32
mhall119someone could log into loco.ubuntu.com and not realize they're using Ubuntu SSO01:32
mhall119I mean, the fact that you can walk into any bar and folks there know Ubuntu should excite you beyond all reason, who cares if they don't know about Launchpad01:33
jo-erlendI think that's wrong. I want us to do something useful in order for people to get into it. And we have opportunities to do that all the time. For instance, if we filed a bug that Netflix doesn't work and people responded to that, then they would all have a potential fix by now. But in order for them to file that bug, they have to have an account on LP. And I don't want us to have our website use names and logons. We should use01:34
jo-erlend OpenID. The obvious choice is Ubuntu SSO.01:34
mhall119Netflix support can't be fixed in Ubuntu01:35
mhall119it has to be fixed by Netflix01:35
jo-erlendIt can be fixed in Ubuntu Norway by using some kinds of hacks. But if that makes it less likely that they'll reboot to Windows, that's a win for me.01:36
IdleOne"some kinds of hacks" don't make for a secure OS01:37
jo-erlendfrom our perspective, it's the simple fact that it cannot be done using Ubuntu. If it can, then that's progress.01:37
jo-erlendI can't tell people to run Windows in Virtualbox. I won'ẗ.01:37
IdleOneTell them to file bugs with netflix, if netflix gets enough people asking for linux support they might decide to provide a native client.01:38
jo-erlendBut if I can tell people that there is a hack, which uses wine to enable DRM in Ubuntu, and it works quite well, then that's something else. I'll still communicate that this is suboptimal, but it works.01:38
jo-erlendnot a chance. I'm not that kind of a guy. I won't stand on the barricades and fight for freedom when there is no chance for that happening. I'll tell them that it is a suboptimal solution, but I won't tell them to use Winodws instead. Never.01:39
jo-erlendI also won't tell them not to watch TV.01:40
IdleOneI didn't say tell them to use Windows. Instead explain why Ubuntu doesn't have a otpimal solution for netflix and what they can do to help get netflix to support linux.01:40
jo-erlendIf something doesn't work that is specific to Norway, I want them to file bugs to us. Then more advanced users can file a bug explaining why and then we can make them duplicates. This example relates to every single net-tv we have in Norway, so this is radically big news to us. Everyone affected should be given an email; yes, now you can help test something.01:42
jo-erlendno, I'm not interested in making people see things the way I do. Even if it requires wine and hacks, I want them to do what they want to do using Ubuntu. I'll still explain why this should've been supported out of the box and why it cannot, but I won't persuade them to think differently about things. That'll come to them. As a leader, I won't be a politician.01:45
mhall119jo-erlend: I agree, make sure they know that DRM is what is preventing Netflix on Ubuntu, and there isn't anything Netflix or Ubuntu can do about it.  If they want it to change, then need to voice opposition to DRM.01:46
jo-erlendno. That's exactly what I don't want to do if people are able to provide the same service using wine and something as a simple package. And it seems to work with every TV-station in Norway that doesn't work without it. And that's sufficient.01:47
mhall119Well it will be a sub-optimal solution, so you will need to tell them why they have to settle for sub-optimal01:48
jo-erlendright, but it's no longer impossible.01:48
mhall119otherwise they will assume it's Ubuntu's fault01:48
jo-erlendthat disproves the theory that there's something about Linux that makes it impossible.01:49
mhall119you're not doing it in Linux though, you're doing it in what Netflix believes to be Windows01:49
jo-erlendYou don't know how many times I've been told that "Ubuntu cannot handle TV2". I've tried to explain why this is so, but that doesn't change the fact. Now I can say that it's about patents and stuff, but you can easily use it if you want to.01:50
mhall119I'm not even totally sure on the legality of that approach, at least in the USA01:50
jo-erlendthere is nothing in the license that prevents you from using Silverlight in an emulated environment.01:50
mhall119no, but circumventing the DRM may run afoul of US law01:51
jo-erlendis so, you would be disallowed to run it from a VM, which Microsoft doesn't allow. Interesting, from some points of view, but not from mine.01:51
jo-erlendthat is to say; Microsoft prevents any kind of tampering with the ability to run Windows in a VM.01:52
jo-erlendI really don't care about their problems. I want my people to be free. I just don't care about Microsoft anymore. I consider them an interesting opponent and nothing else.01:53
mhall119and while I'm 100% behind helping Ubuntu users view netflix and streaming tv, I am cautious because it is not a sustainable solution01:55
jo-erlendRight, but that's simply because of DRM and that's a bad solution in any OS.01:56
mhall119hacks are good and fun and useful, but they don't offer much in the way of long-term support01:56
jo-erlendthis is also why I'm fighting for other ways to pay for things. I'm frightened senseless about the piracy-stuff that's going on. I'm much more worried about pirates than I am about Microsoft.01:57
* mhall119 isn't particularly worried about either01:57
jo-erlendwell.. We're about to become the legal way to get gratis software. That means we'll attract pirates, which means Hollywood will point out that we are the ones making pirates out of otherwise good people.01:58
jo-erlendin the long run, that will hurt us bad unless we also make a culture of paying for stuff we like.01:59
jo-erlendI think jono has made a very good effort with his band in that regard, but it's not enough.02:00
mhall119I think the Humble Bundles have proven that we're willing to pay for things we like02:01
jo-erlendyes, as a concept, but not as a culture.02:01
mhall119I think that on average, open source users care more about adhering to licences that Windows users02:01
mhall119we certainly respect it more02:02
jo-erlendright, but that will change when we start attracting large numbers of people.02:02
jo-erlendwe are no longer special.02:02
mhall119probably some, yes02:02
mhall119we'll always be special ;)02:02
mhall119I think the reasons we care about licenses more isn't some innate sense of morality, but because we see that licenses can work to our benefit, not just our detriment02:03
jo-erlendheh, I've always been special, fighting to become normal, but I don't succeed. That's ok. But I understand the other perspectives.02:03
mhall119When we attrack new users, I think many (but by no means all) of them will also see that licenses can and should be good02:03
mhall119never become normal, normal is boring02:03
jo-erlendnobody should attack anyone.02:03
mhall119bah, not attack02:04
mhall119attract02:04
jo-erlendok, but then you're wrong. Our main goal has to be the XP users. If we attract 30% of those, then that's an extreme victory. But they will choose Ubuntu out of convenience and not out of policy or anything like that. They will not change just because their OS does. We need to adjust to that.02:05
mhall119I think they will change, actually.  I've seen lots of Windows users change the same way, myself included02:06
jo-erlendyes, but not in large groups.02:07
mhall119well, that we will have to wait to see02:07
jo-erlendand we will become a very minor minority if we succeed.02:07
jo-erlendno! We can't wait and see, because we are the ones who have to greet them in order for our beliefs to be carried on.02:08
mhall119"we" people non-pirates?02:08
jo-erlendsort of, yes. I don't think it's possible to support piracy and free software at the same time. rms looks ridiculous when he does that, for instance.02:09
mhall119I agree, free software and open source software is antithetical to piracy02:09
mhall119which is why I firmly believe that no matter how popular we become, we will not become the hot-bed for piracy that Windows is02:10
jo-erlendbut we also don't have a good financing model to pay for GPL software. That's bad. And the U1 Music Store doesn't sell free music. That's also bad.02:10
mhall119true, finding a way to make open source development financially sustainable has been a tough nut to crack02:11
jo-erlendyes, but it will be the main argument made by powerful forces opposing us; "Ubuntu users are people who doesn't want to pay for anything but also doesn't want to be criminals". How does that help? We want to be those who value our freedom _and_ want to pay for non-DRMed stuff.02:11
jo-erlendyes, but it begins with culture and we're neglecting it.02:12
mhall119I don't think that will be the narrative02:12
jo-erlendreally? Who do you think are going to sponsor those investigations and how will they angle their findings? If Microsoft or Apple can even possibly make that claim, they'll pay for it.02:13
mhall119I think the "linux users don't want to pay for anything" myth is dying, in large part because of the Humble Bundle and other new business models02:13
jo-erlendcan't use the bundle. Look at Transmission users.02:13
mhall119and it's being replaced with the narratives "linux users will shell out whatever they think your product is worth, as long as it doesn't take away any of the freedoms they care about"02:14
jo-erlendI see no evidence of that. I do see evidence that people are choosing Ubuntu because it's both gratis and secure, but nothing to support any claim that they become more willing to pay for things.02:15
mhall119every pay-what-you-like thing I've seen that broke out averages by platform has whos that02:15
mhall119has shown that02:16
jo-erlendThere is no way to donate to VLC from the software center, which is bad. There is no way to buy free music from the music store. That's also bad. We keep making bad examples out of what should be our primary advantage.02:16
mhall119right, the ability to donate through the software center has been requested for a while, I think it's more of a logistical problem with handling the money than anything else02:17
jo-erlendeveryone, even the opponents, are making it clear; they don't care about freedom or sourecode. But they might be willing to pay for it anyway, just because it's convenient and secure. That's the biggie.02:17
jo-erlendwe need to somehow create a culture of paying, not because of Canonical or anything like that, but for plain political reasons. The powers that be are afraid of us because they think they'll lose money by supporting us. That's why they don't. And that's easy to understand.02:20
jo-erlendwe need to create a "we choose to pay for our freedom"-culture.02:22
jo-erlendif Metallica releases their stuff _freely_ I'll gladly pay for it. Until they do, I won't even listen to anything they've made after the plumber analogy. That's my choice, but I can't sell it and I shouldn't be able to. I don't even want that ability. I want to convince Metallica, but we need to enable them.02:24
jo-erlendValve supports Ubuntu and they do so for good reasons, and I support them for supporting Ubuntu. But they do not share my goals. To them, we're just a tool. And that's a good thing, but we need to build our community differently, because otherwise, Ubuntu is just technologically different. That's not a sufficient goal. We need to _be_ different.02:28
jo-erlendIf I worked in Canonical, I would seriously look into the concept of hacksilver, which is an old Norwegian way of doing things before we had coins. And yes, hacksilver is a real term. :)02:38
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bkerensajcastro_: https://maas.ubuntu.com/docs/quantal/man/maas-cli.8.html#api-key06:29
bkerensabroken images ^06:29
dholbachgood morning07:55
bkerensaGuten Morgen!08:03
czajkowskibkerensa: there is a guy who does the mass documentation :)08:10
czajkowskispecificaly just documentation :)08:10
czajkowskiI'll drop him an email for you08:10
bkerensaczajkowski: Hmm? Doc for which?08:11
czajkowskibroken images08:11
bkerensaoh08:11
bkerensa:D08:11
bkerensa:D08:11
bkerensaI thought you were talking about catholic mass there for a second :P08:12
czajkowskiit's early and I'm not working today so just trying to be nice to you bkerensa :)08:12
bkerensalol08:12
bkerensa:)08:12
bkerensaczajkowski: well thanks :)08:12
czajkowskinp08:13
dholbachhey dpm08:15
dholbachhey czajkowski, bkerensa08:15
dholbachhow are you all doing?08:15
bkerensadholbach: good :) just trying to keep warm... pretty wicked storm hitting right now08:16
czajkowskidholbach: *yawns* morning08:16
dholbachbkerensa, what temperature is it over there?08:17
dpmmorning dholbach08:17
czajkowskihad to be up at stupid o'clock to get train back to london to supervise end of tenancy cleaning before flight to Ireland08:17
bkerensadholbach: 48.1 °F08:18
czajkowskinot much warmer than here08:20
czajkowskiit's 42.8 here.08:21
bkerensaYeah it gets colder usually next month or february comes the ice but right now we have high wind which has knocked out power for a lot of people08:27
czajkowskibkerensa: it's an issue with sphinx and the page has yet to be regenerated it is a known issue re that images on page will be fixed soon but most liely not this week09:22
Tm_Tbkerensa: just remember, bright sunlight means cold10:16
jussiTm_T: no... bright sunlight means colder... cold is when there is clouds :P10:57
Tm_Tjussi: cold? it's warm here now when it's not bright10:59
Tm_Taah, proper winter waiting on next week http://en.ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/weather/Joensuu10:59
jussiTm_T: good thing I leave for australia on sunday :P11:00
Tm_Tjussi: so you learn to enjoy the finnish weather when you get back?11:05
SergioMenesesmorning!15:23
technovikingjcastro_: I can help out on the forum upgrade starting tomorrow, have a tape library install today. Was feel last week, and did not heard from anyone and forgot to check irc15:52
jcastro_technoviking: heya!15:59
jcastro_yeah I am unclear what the next step is15:59
jcastro_templates?15:59
jono_dpm, setting it upo16:00
technovikingjcastro_: Not sure where IS is at yet16:01
jono_dpm, invite sent16:01
jonodholbach, do you what I mean in that bug now?16:30
dholbachyes16:30
dholbachI'm on it and almost there16:31
jonothanks dholbach16:31
jonodholbach, ready for our call now?16:32
dholbachyep16:32
jonodholbach, sent16:32
* popey removes a bazillion posts from one guy on the G+ community17:02
dholbachjono, r62 is built in the ppa now - let me know if it's fixed and I'll close 109085617:05
jonodholbach, thanks, checking now17:12
jcastro_popey: yeah it's kind of crap17:12
jcastro_sorry I haven't been moderating, I was gone all weekend17:12
popeyremoved about 10017:13
dholbachjono, the package is a bit big, but I filed a bug for the symlinking17:13
popeyits fine17:13
SergioMenesesjono, dholbach jcastro_ \o17:13
jonohey SergioMeneses17:13
dholbachhey SergioMeneses17:13
jcastro_hey sergio!17:13
SergioMenesesjono, can you check this https://code.launchpad.net/~bhavi/ubuntu-adk/add-locoteam-approval/+merge/14008617:13
SergioMeneseswe are working on it :D17:13
jonoSergioMeneses, I will do17:13
jonoI just haven;t had a chance yet17:13
SergioMenesesjono, perfect :D17:13
jonoI will review in a few hours when I am done with calls17:14
jonothanks for helping SergioMeneses!17:14
SergioMenesesjono, no worries17:14
jono:-)17:14
jonodholbach, fixed17:15
jonothanks!17:15
dholbachjono, cool, thanks17:18
jonoSergioMeneses, looking at the merge17:19
jonoit looks good, going to make a few edits17:20
SergioMenesesjono, perfect17:20
jonoSergioMeneses, just to make it a bit more concise and fit into the doc17:20
jonodoing so now and then you can see my changes17:20
SergioMenesesjono, ok we can work on it this week, I guess :D and make the changes17:22
jonoSergioMeneses, I am just making the changes for you, but it will give you an idea of for future contributions :-)17:23
jonothis is good17:23
SergioMeneses:)17:24
dholbachAll right, I call it a day - see you all tomorrow.17:26
SergioMenesesdholbach, bye17:26
dholbachbye SergioMeneses17:27
SergioMenesesok guys lunch time, I see you later17:34
SergioMenesesjono, I have answered your email about the locos, check it when you can /o/17:35
jcastro_mother of ....17:54
jcastro_jono: dude ...17:54
jcastro_http://enterprisewiki.co/wiki/fcf303ae-0930-41f7-aca0-764bf136867417:54
jonojcastro_, eh?17:54
jcastro_some guys combined etherpad with markdown17:54
jcastro_behold17:55
jonooooh17:55
jcastro_!17:55
jonothat is rockin'17:55
jonomhall119, gonna be a little late17:58
jcastro_bah it's not oss18:00
jcastro_sorry for getting hopes up18:00
mhall119jono: no problem18:04
* mhall119 hadn't realized it was 1pm already18:05
jonomhall119, setting it up18:14
jonomhall119, invite sent18:16
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jonoballoons, can we catch up in about an hour?19:28
jonomhall119, all set?21:25
jonomhall119, invite sent21:25
philipballewSergioMeneses, around?21:26
SergioMenesesphilipballew, hey hey! tell me21:47
philipballewhey we had a few things to work on iirc. Whens that gonna be good for you?21:50
philipballewSergioMeneses, ^21:50
SergioMenesesphilipballew, this week at night :D21:53
philipballewalright, thats tight.21:55
philipballewlets plan for that or whatever21:55
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SergioMenesesphilipballew, can we start to work on it in 3 hours?22:05
philipballewSergioMeneses, might be able to. I am honestly mnot sure what I will be doing then. At my parents house for the holidays, but I might be here yes22:06
SergioMenesesphilipballew, no worries ;)22:07
philipballewso yeah, probably will work22:08
philipballewthats 5pm here in three hours22:08
philipballewwe can do a g hangout if we need to plan stuff22:08
SergioMenesesphilipballew, sounds good22:09
philipballewSergioMeneses, if I am around tweet at me, ill get it on my cell phone22:10
SergioMenesesphilipballew, jaja ok22:11
SergioMenesesIll do it :D22:11
philipballewfor sure!22:12
* SergioMeneses has a lot of things to do22:14
philipballewme to SergioMeneses22:20
dakerhahahaha mhall119 https://launchpad.net/~iveworkedwithmichaelhall22:53
mhall119daker: yeah, you can thank cwayne for that one23:05
cjohnstonits awesome23:11

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