[01:22] <jo-erlend> I wonder if rms understands why Ubuntu is personal to me. I came to Ubuntu from Fedora Core, but I've never left their point of view. I'll happily fight for complete software freedom, but I wonder if he even understands why I choose to be pragmatic in my communication. He has certainly made my job a lot more difficult. And that job is to make it easy for people to tell others how to choose GNU/Linux.
[01:24] <jo-erlend> I think the ADK is a good step in the right direction, but it's still poor. Give me templates for drupal, for instance. Have a look at what I'm struggling with: http://ubuntu.no/ nobody is enticed by that, no matter how well the articles are written.
[01:29] <mhall119> jo-erlend: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-community-webthemes/light-drupal-theme
[01:29] <mhall119> not sure how maintained that one is though
[01:30] <mhall119> the ADK is brand-new, and can certainly use more contributions if you've got some
[01:30] <cjohnston> I believe that its pretty good
[01:31] <mhall119> jo-erlend: you might also reach out to the ubuntu-br loco team, they have a nice drupal theme: http://www.ubuntu-br.org/
[01:31] <jo-erlend> mhall119, the thing that annoys me tremendously, is that I can go into any bar and ask if anyone is using Android and someone will start telling me about Ubuntu, but when I ask my loco how many people are familiar with LP and Ubuntu SSO, nobody responds.
[01:32] <mhall119> that shouldn't annoy you, not all users will ever need Launchpad, and Ubuntu SSO blends in with other Ubuntu properties
[01:32] <mhall119> someone could log into loco.ubuntu.com and not realize they're using Ubuntu SSO
[01:33] <mhall119> I mean, the fact that you can walk into any bar and folks there know Ubuntu should excite you beyond all reason, who cares if they don't know about Launchpad
[01:34] <jo-erlend> I think that's wrong. I want us to do something useful in order for people to get into it. And we have opportunities to do that all the time. For instance, if we filed a bug that Netflix doesn't work and people responded to that, then they would all have a potential fix by now. But in order for them to file that bug, they have to have an account on LP. And I don't want us to have our website use names and logons. We should use
[01:34] <jo-erlend>  OpenID. The obvious choice is Ubuntu SSO.
[01:35] <mhall119> Netflix support can't be fixed in Ubuntu
[01:35] <mhall119> it has to be fixed by Netflix
[01:36] <jo-erlend> It can be fixed in Ubuntu Norway by using some kinds of hacks. But if that makes it less likely that they'll reboot to Windows, that's a win for me.
[01:37] <IdleOne> "some kinds of hacks" don't make for a secure OS
[01:37] <jo-erlend> from our perspective, it's the simple fact that it cannot be done using Ubuntu. If it can, then that's progress.
[01:37] <jo-erlend> I can't tell people to run Windows in Virtualbox. I won'ẗ.
[01:38] <IdleOne> Tell them to file bugs with netflix, if netflix gets enough people asking for linux support they might decide to provide a native client.
[01:38] <jo-erlend> But if I can tell people that there is a hack, which uses wine to enable DRM in Ubuntu, and it works quite well, then that's something else. I'll still communicate that this is suboptimal, but it works.
[01:39] <jo-erlend> not a chance. I'm not that kind of a guy. I won't stand on the barricades and fight for freedom when there is no chance for that happening. I'll tell them that it is a suboptimal solution, but I won't tell them to use Winodws instead. Never.
[01:40] <jo-erlend> I also won't tell them not to watch TV.
[01:40] <IdleOne> I didn't say tell them to use Windows. Instead explain why Ubuntu doesn't have a otpimal solution for netflix and what they can do to help get netflix to support linux.
[01:42] <jo-erlend> If something doesn't work that is specific to Norway, I want them to file bugs to us. Then more advanced users can file a bug explaining why and then we can make them duplicates. This example relates to every single net-tv we have in Norway, so this is radically big news to us. Everyone affected should be given an email; yes, now you can help test something.
[01:45] <jo-erlend> no, I'm not interested in making people see things the way I do. Even if it requires wine and hacks, I want them to do what they want to do using Ubuntu. I'll still explain why this should've been supported out of the box and why it cannot, but I won't persuade them to think differently about things. That'll come to them. As a leader, I won't be a politician.
[01:46] <mhall119> jo-erlend: I agree, make sure they know that DRM is what is preventing Netflix on Ubuntu, and there isn't anything Netflix or Ubuntu can do about it.  If they want it to change, then need to voice opposition to DRM.
[01:47] <jo-erlend> no. That's exactly what I don't want to do if people are able to provide the same service using wine and something as a simple package. And it seems to work with every TV-station in Norway that doesn't work without it. And that's sufficient.
[01:48] <mhall119> Well it will be a sub-optimal solution, so you will need to tell them why they have to settle for sub-optimal
[01:48] <jo-erlend> right, but it's no longer impossible.
[01:48] <mhall119> otherwise they will assume it's Ubuntu's fault
[01:49] <jo-erlend> that disproves the theory that there's something about Linux that makes it impossible.
[01:49] <mhall119> you're not doing it in Linux though, you're doing it in what Netflix believes to be Windows
[01:50] <jo-erlend> You don't know how many times I've been told that "Ubuntu cannot handle TV2". I've tried to explain why this is so, but that doesn't change the fact. Now I can say that it's about patents and stuff, but you can easily use it if you want to.
[01:50] <mhall119> I'm not even totally sure on the legality of that approach, at least in the USA
[01:50] <jo-erlend> there is nothing in the license that prevents you from using Silverlight in an emulated environment.
[01:51] <mhall119> no, but circumventing the DRM may run afoul of US law
[01:51] <jo-erlend> is so, you would be disallowed to run it from a VM, which Microsoft doesn't allow. Interesting, from some points of view, but not from mine.
[01:52] <jo-erlend> that is to say; Microsoft prevents any kind of tampering with the ability to run Windows in a VM.
[01:53] <jo-erlend> I really don't care about their problems. I want my people to be free. I just don't care about Microsoft anymore. I consider them an interesting opponent and nothing else.
[01:55] <mhall119> and while I'm 100% behind helping Ubuntu users view netflix and streaming tv, I am cautious because it is not a sustainable solution
[01:56] <jo-erlend> Right, but that's simply because of DRM and that's a bad solution in any OS.
[01:56] <mhall119> hacks are good and fun and useful, but they don't offer much in the way of long-term support
[01:57] <jo-erlend> this is also why I'm fighting for other ways to pay for things. I'm frightened senseless about the piracy-stuff that's going on. I'm much more worried about pirates than I am about Microsoft.
[01:57]  * mhall119 isn't particularly worried about either
[01:58] <jo-erlend> well.. We're about to become the legal way to get gratis software. That means we'll attract pirates, which means Hollywood will point out that we are the ones making pirates out of otherwise good people.
[01:59] <jo-erlend> in the long run, that will hurt us bad unless we also make a culture of paying for stuff we like.
[02:00] <jo-erlend> I think jono has made a very good effort with his band in that regard, but it's not enough.
[02:01] <mhall119> I think the Humble Bundles have proven that we're willing to pay for things we like
[02:01] <jo-erlend> yes, as a concept, but not as a culture.
[02:01] <mhall119> I think that on average, open source users care more about adhering to licences that Windows users
[02:02] <mhall119> we certainly respect it more
[02:02] <jo-erlend> right, but that will change when we start attracting large numbers of people.
[02:02] <jo-erlend> we are no longer special.
[02:02] <mhall119> probably some, yes
[02:02] <mhall119> we'll always be special ;)
[02:03] <mhall119> I think the reasons we care about licenses more isn't some innate sense of morality, but because we see that licenses can work to our benefit, not just our detriment
[02:03] <jo-erlend> heh, I've always been special, fighting to become normal, but I don't succeed. That's ok. But I understand the other perspectives.
[02:03] <mhall119> When we attrack new users, I think many (but by no means all) of them will also see that licenses can and should be good
[02:03] <mhall119> never become normal, normal is boring
[02:03] <jo-erlend> nobody should attack anyone.
[02:04] <mhall119> bah, not attack
[02:04] <mhall119> attract
[02:05] <jo-erlend> ok, but then you're wrong. Our main goal has to be the XP users. If we attract 30% of those, then that's an extreme victory. But they will choose Ubuntu out of convenience and not out of policy or anything like that. They will not change just because their OS does. We need to adjust to that.
[02:06] <mhall119> I think they will change, actually.  I've seen lots of Windows users change the same way, myself included
[02:07] <jo-erlend> yes, but not in large groups.
[02:07] <mhall119> well, that we will have to wait to see
[02:07] <jo-erlend> and we will become a very minor minority if we succeed.
[02:08] <jo-erlend> no! We can't wait and see, because we are the ones who have to greet them in order for our beliefs to be carried on.
[02:08] <mhall119> "we" people non-pirates?
[02:09] <jo-erlend> sort of, yes. I don't think it's possible to support piracy and free software at the same time. rms looks ridiculous when he does that, for instance.
[02:09] <mhall119> I agree, free software and open source software is antithetical to piracy
[02:10] <mhall119> which is why I firmly believe that no matter how popular we become, we will not become the hot-bed for piracy that Windows is
[02:10] <jo-erlend> but we also don't have a good financing model to pay for GPL software. That's bad. And the U1 Music Store doesn't sell free music. That's also bad.
[02:11] <mhall119> true, finding a way to make open source development financially sustainable has been a tough nut to crack
[02:11] <jo-erlend> yes, but it will be the main argument made by powerful forces opposing us; "Ubuntu users are people who doesn't want to pay for anything but also doesn't want to be criminals". How does that help? We want to be those who value our freedom _and_ want to pay for non-DRMed stuff.
[02:12] <jo-erlend> yes, but it begins with culture and we're neglecting it.
[02:12] <mhall119> I don't think that will be the narrative
[02:13] <jo-erlend> really? Who do you think are going to sponsor those investigations and how will they angle their findings? If Microsoft or Apple can even possibly make that claim, they'll pay for it.
[02:13] <mhall119> I think the "linux users don't want to pay for anything" myth is dying, in large part because of the Humble Bundle and other new business models
[02:13] <jo-erlend> can't use the bundle. Look at Transmission users.
[02:14] <mhall119> and it's being replaced with the narratives "linux users will shell out whatever they think your product is worth, as long as it doesn't take away any of the freedoms they care about"
[02:15] <jo-erlend> I see no evidence of that. I do see evidence that people are choosing Ubuntu because it's both gratis and secure, but nothing to support any claim that they become more willing to pay for things.
[02:15] <mhall119> every pay-what-you-like thing I've seen that broke out averages by platform has whos that
[02:16] <mhall119> has shown that
[02:16] <jo-erlend> There is no way to donate to VLC from the software center, which is bad. There is no way to buy free music from the music store. That's also bad. We keep making bad examples out of what should be our primary advantage.
[02:17] <mhall119> right, the ability to donate through the software center has been requested for a while, I think it's more of a logistical problem with handling the money than anything else
[02:17] <jo-erlend> everyone, even the opponents, are making it clear; they don't care about freedom or sourecode. But they might be willing to pay for it anyway, just because it's convenient and secure. That's the biggie.
[02:20] <jo-erlend> we need to somehow create a culture of paying, not because of Canonical or anything like that, but for plain political reasons. The powers that be are afraid of us because they think they'll lose money by supporting us. That's why they don't. And that's easy to understand.
[02:22] <jo-erlend> we need to create a "we choose to pay for our freedom"-culture.
[02:24] <jo-erlend> if Metallica releases their stuff _freely_ I'll gladly pay for it. Until they do, I won't even listen to anything they've made after the plumber analogy. That's my choice, but I can't sell it and I shouldn't be able to. I don't even want that ability. I want to convince Metallica, but we need to enable them.
[02:28] <jo-erlend> Valve supports Ubuntu and they do so for good reasons, and I support them for supporting Ubuntu. But they do not share my goals. To them, we're just a tool. And that's a good thing, but we need to build our community differently, because otherwise, Ubuntu is just technologically different. That's not a sufficient goal. We need to _be_ different.
[02:38] <jo-erlend> If I worked in Canonical, I would seriously look into the concept of hacksilver, which is an old Norwegian way of doing things before we had coins. And yes, hacksilver is a real term. :)
[06:29] <bkerensa> jcastro_: https://maas.ubuntu.com/docs/quantal/man/maas-cli.8.html#api-key
[06:29] <bkerensa> broken images ^
[07:55] <dholbach> good morning
[08:03] <bkerensa> Guten Morgen!
[08:10] <czajkowski> bkerensa: there is a guy who does the mass documentation :)
[08:10] <czajkowski> specificaly just documentation :)
[08:10] <czajkowski> I'll drop him an email for you
[08:11] <bkerensa> czajkowski: Hmm? Doc for which?
[08:11] <czajkowski> broken images
[08:11] <bkerensa> oh
[08:11] <bkerensa> :D
[08:11] <bkerensa> :D
[08:12] <bkerensa> I thought you were talking about catholic mass there for a second :P
[08:12] <czajkowski> it's early and I'm not working today so just trying to be nice to you bkerensa :)
[08:12] <bkerensa> lol
[08:12] <bkerensa> :)
[08:12] <bkerensa> czajkowski: well thanks :)
[08:13] <czajkowski> np
[08:15] <dholbach> hey dpm
[08:15] <dholbach> hey czajkowski, bkerensa
[08:15] <dholbach> how are you all doing?
[08:16] <bkerensa> dholbach: good :) just trying to keep warm... pretty wicked storm hitting right now
[08:16] <czajkowski> dholbach: *yawns* morning
[08:17] <dholbach> bkerensa, what temperature is it over there?
[08:17] <dpm> morning dholbach
[08:17] <czajkowski> had to be up at stupid o'clock to get train back to london to supervise end of tenancy cleaning before flight to Ireland
[08:18] <bkerensa> dholbach: 48.1 °F
[08:20] <czajkowski> not much warmer than here
[08:21] <czajkowski> it's 42.8 here.
[08:27] <bkerensa> Yeah it gets colder usually next month or february comes the ice but right now we have high wind which has knocked out power for a lot of people
[09:22] <czajkowski> bkerensa: it's an issue with sphinx and the page has yet to be regenerated it is a known issue re that images on page will be fixed soon but most liely not this week
[10:16] <Tm_T> bkerensa: just remember, bright sunlight means cold
[10:57] <jussi> Tm_T: no... bright sunlight means colder... cold is when there is clouds :P
[10:59] <Tm_T> jussi: cold? it's warm here now when it's not bright
[10:59] <Tm_T> aah, proper winter waiting on next week http://en.ilmatieteenlaitos.fi/weather/Joensuu
[11:00] <jussi> Tm_T: good thing I leave for australia on sunday :P
[11:05] <Tm_T> jussi: so you learn to enjoy the finnish weather when you get back?
[15:23] <SergioMeneses> morning!
[15:52] <technoviking> jcastro_: I can help out on the forum upgrade starting tomorrow, have a tape library install today. Was feel last week, and did not heard from anyone and forgot to check irc
[15:59] <jcastro_> technoviking: heya!
[15:59] <jcastro_> yeah I am unclear what the next step is
[15:59] <jcastro_> templates?
[16:00] <jono_> dpm, setting it upo
[16:01] <technoviking> jcastro_: Not sure where IS is at yet
[16:01] <jono_> dpm, invite sent
[16:30] <jono> dholbach, do you what I mean in that bug now?
[16:30] <dholbach> yes
[16:31] <dholbach> I'm on it and almost there
[16:31] <jono> thanks dholbach
[16:32] <jono> dholbach, ready for our call now?
[16:32] <dholbach> yep
[16:32] <jono> dholbach, sent
[17:02]  * popey removes a bazillion posts from one guy on the G+ community
[17:05] <dholbach> jono, r62 is built in the ppa now - let me know if it's fixed and I'll close 1090856
[17:12] <jono> dholbach, thanks, checking now
[17:12] <jcastro_> popey: yeah it's kind of crap
[17:12] <jcastro_> sorry I haven't been moderating, I was gone all weekend
[17:13] <popey> removed about 100
[17:13] <dholbach> jono, the package is a bit big, but I filed a bug for the symlinking
[17:13] <popey> its fine
[17:13] <SergioMeneses> jono, dholbach jcastro_ \o
[17:13] <jono> hey SergioMeneses
[17:13] <dholbach> hey SergioMeneses
[17:13] <jcastro_> hey sergio!
[17:13] <SergioMeneses> jono, can you check this https://code.launchpad.net/~bhavi/ubuntu-adk/add-locoteam-approval/+merge/140086
[17:13] <SergioMeneses> we are working on it :D
[17:13] <jono> SergioMeneses, I will do
[17:13] <jono> I just haven;t had a chance yet
[17:13] <SergioMeneses> jono, perfect :D
[17:14] <jono> I will review in a few hours when I am done with calls
[17:14] <jono> thanks for helping SergioMeneses!
[17:14] <SergioMeneses> jono, no worries
[17:14] <jono> :-)
[17:15] <jono> dholbach, fixed
[17:15] <jono> thanks!
[17:18] <dholbach> jono, cool, thanks
[17:19] <jono> SergioMeneses, looking at the merge
[17:20] <jono> it looks good, going to make a few edits
[17:20] <SergioMeneses> jono, perfect
[17:20] <jono> SergioMeneses, just to make it a bit more concise and fit into the doc
[17:20] <jono> doing so now and then you can see my changes
[17:22] <SergioMeneses> jono, ok we can work on it this week, I guess :D and make the changes
[17:23] <jono> SergioMeneses, I am just making the changes for you, but it will give you an idea of for future contributions :-)
[17:23] <jono> this is good
[17:24] <SergioMeneses> :)
[17:26] <dholbach> All right, I call it a day - see you all tomorrow.
[17:26] <SergioMeneses> dholbach, bye
[17:27] <dholbach> bye SergioMeneses
[17:34] <SergioMeneses> ok guys lunch time, I see you later
[17:35] <SergioMeneses> jono, I have answered your email about the locos, check it when you can /o/
[17:54] <jcastro_> mother of ....
[17:54] <jcastro_> jono: dude ...
[17:54] <jcastro_> http://enterprisewiki.co/wiki/fcf303ae-0930-41f7-aca0-764bf1368674
[17:54] <jono> jcastro_, eh?
[17:54] <jcastro_> some guys combined etherpad with markdown
[17:55] <jcastro_> behold
[17:55] <jono> oooh
[17:55] <jcastro_> !
[17:55] <jono> that is rockin'
[17:58] <jono> mhall119, gonna be a little late
[18:00] <jcastro_> bah it's not oss
[18:00] <jcastro_> sorry for getting hopes up
[18:04] <mhall119> jono: no problem
[18:05]  * mhall119 hadn't realized it was 1pm already
[18:14] <jono> mhall119, setting it up
[18:16] <jono> mhall119, invite sent
[19:28] <jono> balloons, can we catch up in about an hour?
[21:25] <jono> mhall119, all set?
[21:25] <jono> mhall119, invite sent
[21:26] <philipballew> SergioMeneses, around?
[21:47] <SergioMeneses> philipballew, hey hey! tell me
[21:50] <philipballew> hey we had a few things to work on iirc. Whens that gonna be good for you?
[21:50] <philipballew> SergioMeneses, ^
[21:53] <SergioMeneses> philipballew, this week at night :D
[21:55] <philipballew> alright, thats tight.
[21:55] <philipballew> lets plan for that or whatever
[22:05] <SergioMeneses> philipballew, can we start to work on it in 3 hours?
[22:06] <philipballew> SergioMeneses, might be able to. I am honestly mnot sure what I will be doing then. At my parents house for the holidays, but I might be here yes
[22:07] <SergioMeneses> philipballew, no worries ;)
[22:08] <philipballew> so yeah, probably will work
[22:08] <philipballew> thats 5pm here in three hours
[22:08] <philipballew> we can do a g hangout if we need to plan stuff
[22:09] <SergioMeneses> philipballew, sounds good
[22:10] <philipballew> SergioMeneses, if I am around tweet at me, ill get it on my cell phone
[22:11] <SergioMeneses> philipballew, jaja ok
[22:11] <SergioMeneses> Ill do it :D
[22:12] <philipballew> for sure!
[22:14]  * SergioMeneses has a lot of things to do
[22:20] <philipballew> me to SergioMeneses
[22:53] <daker> hahahaha mhall119 https://launchpad.net/~iveworkedwithmichaelhall
[23:05] <mhall119> daker: yeah, you can thank cwayne for that one
[23:11] <cjohnston> its awesome