[05:43] <Len-nb> zequence, any thoughts on ffmpeg vs libav?
[05:44] <Len-nb> It appears the ffmpeg we ship is not ffmpeg, but the libav fork.
[05:46] <Len-nb> That it calls itself ffmpeg at all, seems dishonest.
[12:01] <zequence> holstein: I haven't used audacity with jack a lot, and dont find much reason to do so myself. The only thing I know for sure, which is not that fun concerning audacity and jack is that the connection name changes each time you start audacity
[12:02] <zequence> So, it's not very practical to connect Audacity to other jack apps
[12:02] <zequence> Other than that, I don't know if there's a particular problem with running Audacity with jackk
[12:06] <zequence> Len-nb: From what I understand libav is the replacement for ffmpeg, and that ffmpeg is used mostly because some apps have depended onit
[12:07] <zequence> Len-nb: The tool /usr/bin/ffmpeg still exists, after uninstalling ffmpeg, so I'm assuming libav tools have that in their arsenal
[12:08] <zequence> ffmpeg depends on libav-tools, which I assume is what gives you all the ffmpeg stuff
[12:10] <zequence> Is it a meta package, ffmpeg? If you try getting the source for it, you get the source for libav
[12:12] <zequence> It's not a real package anyway, and as the description says, we can remove it. We just need to add it's dependencies
[16:20] <Len-nb> zequence, that was what I thought too... then I read this:
[16:21] <Len-nb> http://blog.pkh.me/p/13-the-ffmpeg-libav-situation.html
[16:22] <Len-nb> It seems libav and ffmpeg are two different projects.
[16:22] <Len-nb> the two are based on the same root but diverged.
[16:24] <Len-nb> they are not swapable and there is a lot of animosity there.
[16:26] <Len-nb> The ffmpeg people feel that libav is a highjack and the libav people feel they kicked out some trouble.
[16:28] <Len-nb> The real ffmpeg package has some codecs that we lack BTW.
[16:29] <Len-nb> In ubuntu (and debian) libav has become the replacement.... but something smells.
[17:11] <zequence> Len-nb: interesting
[17:11] <zequence> Len-nb: Still, the tool ffmpeg is not a part of the ffmpeg package http://pastebin.com/prnvFeYU
[17:13] <zequence> It's a part of the libav-tools package 
[17:13] <zequence> http://pastebin.com/ALUH3KgE
[17:13] <zequence> So, we don't have a choice. But one could investigate further how come the packages look the way they look
[17:14] <Len-nb> Yes, I realize we can do little about what we include anyway, but it is good to be aware that one ffmpeg is not the same as another.
[17:16] <Len-nb> Someone asking questions about how come the ffmpeg in that distro does this and ours doesn't for example.
[17:16] <zequence> Absolutely
[17:17]  * Len-nb was not suggesting including both :P
[17:18] <zequence> To me it does seem very odd
[17:20] <zequence> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=73558
[17:23] <zequence> I suppose this is the reasoning for how Debian packages http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-multimedia-maintainers/2011-December/023070.html
[17:31] <Len-nb> That seems to say the deb maintainer also contributes to libav and so has some personal reasons for the choice... but then from what I read there is very little that is not personal.
[17:33] <Len-nb> I would have liked to see them be more open that ffmpeg is a fork and so is libav and use two different names.
[17:36] <Len-nb> calling the libav package by the name ffmpeg is not the right thing to do. The libre office fork went much smoother.
[17:37] <Len-nb> in the end, what matters is that it works for our users
[17:43] <Lumpy> hello all
[18:19] <len-1304> Lumpy, I was reading your talk with holstein.
[18:19] <Lumpy> okay
[18:19] <len-1304> zequence, we have a new jack2 today.
[18:19] <Lumpy> keep in mind i am sleep deprived atm
[18:19] <len-1304> It sounds interesting
[18:20] <Lumpy> to you maybe, to me, atm, confusing.. heh
[18:20] <len-1304> We can talk later, that is ok. I would like to set up what you have to see if I can help. But I can do tha later.
[18:20] <Lumpy> the more i look, the more is seems to be on the server end though
[18:20] <Lumpy> i would love to do that
[18:20] <len-1304> I have access to a server I can play with.
[18:21] <Lumpy> later would be better though
[18:21] <Lumpy> i could really screw things up atm
[18:21] <Lumpy> kewl to post emails here?
[18:21] <len-1304> Yup, I am at -0800 so I will be awake for another 12 hours or so.
[18:22] <Lumpy> with the holiday and all, it may be a tad longer than that but lumpy@indienation.fm
[18:22] <Lumpy> and i have all the server we need to play with
[18:22] <Lumpy> i pay for a dedicated
[18:22] <len-1304> I'll send a message so you get my email.
[18:22] <Lumpy> and if we can use it for the betterment of Ubuntu Studio
[18:23] <len-1304> We do like to cover different work flows.
[18:23] <Lumpy> i am certain that no on here at indie nation would object
[18:23] <Lumpy> i would love to be more involved with helping this community
[18:23] <Lumpy> your products have certainly done a great deal for me
[18:24] <len-1304> All of us are volunteer. mostly we just package other peoples work.
[18:24] <len-1304> Most of us as holstein said are not really coders.
[18:25] <Lumpy>  i am in the same boat
[18:25] <Lumpy> but
[18:25] <Lumpy> i hack as i need to do what i want to do
[18:25] <Lumpy> indie nation is focused on the promotion of indie musicians
[18:25] <Lumpy> we are all indie and almost entirely all podsafe
[18:26] <Lumpy> my area of specialty is recording live gigs
[18:26] <Lumpy> i have a few zooms and portable gear
[18:26] <Lumpy> for us it is just a passion
[18:26] <len-1304> Most of us are musicians and do hobby are profesion recording.
[18:26] <Lumpy> maybe better said an obsession
[18:26] <Lumpy> i have carpal tunnel in both hands
[18:27] <Lumpy> my guitar days are about done
[18:27] <len-1304> Ouch!
[18:27] <Lumpy> but ever hear of John Stebal Jr.?
[18:27] <len-1304> Not that I am aware.
[18:27] <len-1304> The name may have gone past me ...
[18:27] <Lumpy> well he recorded with Duke Ellingtone, Mel Torme, and Patsy Kline
[18:28] <Lumpy> he was one of my instructors
[18:28] <len-1304> Pretty hard not to have heard of them though :)
[18:28] <Lumpy> and i started out in the patch cord Moog days with one inch tape
[18:28] <Lumpy> so i have been around it for a while
[18:28] <len-1304> I have been around that long too.
[18:28] <Lumpy> rather noobish to digital but the switch is not that hard
[18:28] <len-1304> My training was broadcast electronics in the 70s
[18:29] <Lumpy> GIGO still ++ the same
[18:29] <len-1304> It was all tape
[18:29] <len-1304> That part never changes
[18:30] <len-1304> We seem to have lost music with heart at least in the main stream. perhaps that is why you are doing indie.
[18:30] <Lumpy> I still use a tascam portastudio for my mixer
[18:31] <Lumpy> i do all indie because the RIAA didn't want to even talk to me about doing stuff through sound exchange
[18:31] <len-1304> I was doing that, till I heard the difference my mackie makes.
[18:31] <Lumpy> i still have contact with some mainstream musicians
[18:31] <Lumpy> I still like analog mixers personally
[18:32] <Lumpy> but i want to learn more about all digital from start to finish
[18:32] <Lumpy> not that, technically, there is such a thing
[18:32] <Lumpy> i don't know of any audio gear that doesn't have A/d converters somewhere
[18:32] <Lumpy> seems, as far as physics is concerned, not doable
[18:32] <Lumpy> but i could be wrong
[18:33] <Lumpy> is suppose if the speakers clicked fast enough, we would still hear analog sound :P
[18:33] <len-1304> Even our ears have a preamp.
[18:34] <Lumpy> my son, 6 years old, just did 27 pages of homework, two weeks worth in two days
[18:34] <Lumpy> w00t!
[18:34] <len-1304> A DAC includes a capacitor to smooth the sharp edges off.
[18:35] <len-1304> My son of 7 avoids all home work...
[18:35] <Lumpy> remember the TI complexe sound generator chip?
[18:35] <Lumpy> mine wanted to do it
[18:35] <Lumpy> he wouldn't quite
[18:35] <len-1304> I played with one many years ago.
[18:35] <Lumpy> he is top of his class, kindergarden for reading
[18:35] <len-1304> Three tones and noise?
[18:35] <Lumpy> i used to build synths and pedals with them
[18:36] <Lumpy> haven't done any building since i was teen though
[18:36] <Lumpy> i used to daisy link C-64s
[18:36] <Lumpy> did Indian scales with them even
[18:37] <Lumpy> while i still love analog stuff, the digital possibilities are endlesss
[18:37] <Lumpy> so much more with so much less
[18:38] <Lumpy> and yeah, i think it was three tone and noise
[18:38] <len-1304> It has gotten hard to get hobby usable components, Software at least is doable.
[18:38] <Lumpy> plus some filters if i recall
[18:39] <Lumpy> well software is certainly less expensive and more flexible than the old breadboard method
[18:39] <len-1304> Radio shack is gone in Canada, so anything I would want has to be ordered.
[18:39] <Lumpy> plus it is pretty hard to fry software
[18:40] <len-1304> If I fry software. I can reload and start over.
[18:40] <Lumpy> links kewl here?
[18:40] <len-1304> Ya
[18:40] <len-1304> So long as it doesn't start to look like spam
[18:41] <Lumpy> one good surplus link, a local company here, haven't used them in years but for what it is worth, http://www.electronicsurplus.com/default.aspx
[18:41] <len-1304> But for illustration purposes it is fine
[18:42] <Lumpy> short of being in certain recipes, i don't care for spam much either
[18:42] <len-1304> I don't eat the stuff either :)
[18:43] <len-1304> Looks like a good site.
[18:43] <Lumpy> in the 70's Olsens and them were the bomb
[18:44] <len-1304> When I was in the vancouver area active was good, but I am on the Vancouver Island now so my options are much less.
[18:44] <len-1304> There was a good place in Langley too.
[18:44] <Lumpy> you live on an island
[18:44] <Lumpy> i always wanted to do that
[18:44] <Lumpy> I live in cleveland
[18:44] <len-1304> Pretty big Island.
[18:45] <Lumpy> we have a few islands on the lake
[18:45] <Lumpy> one thing nice about them here is that the community is pretty much constantly the same
[18:45] <Lumpy> i think i would like that
[18:46] <Lumpy> regarding the earlier chat in the other channel
[18:46] <Lumpy> i am leaning more and more to the thought that i have a sever side issue
[18:46] <len-1304> That was part of our reason to move... less commuting too. I used to spend 2 hours a days commuting.
[18:46] <Lumpy> centovacast is reporting that i actually did have the stream
[18:47] <Lumpy> but if you listen, i never did
[18:48] <len-1304> Are you just sending perecorded audio from files or other audio (anounce etc. ) as well.
[18:48] <Lumpy> i would never spen that much time commuting
[18:48] <Lumpy> both
[18:48] <Lumpy> i use idjc to stream
[18:48] <Lumpy> but i can hit it on local host
[18:48] <len-1304> OK.
[18:48] <Lumpy> so it is unlikely on my end
[18:49] <len-1304> May help if you can increase the size of the send buffers.
[18:49] <len-1304> But I am talking off the top of my head.
[18:49] <Lumpy> i am doubtful on that
[18:49] <Lumpy> i have the exact setting i have had in the past
[18:49] <Lumpy> never had an issue in the past
[18:49] <len-1304> I am running ubuntustudio 13.04 testing on this box right now.
[18:50] <Lumpy> but, then again, we are using icecast now and not sc_trans
[18:50] <len-1304> Which version are you running
[18:50] <Lumpy> 12.04
[18:50] <len-1304> OK, before I play  I will reboot there.
[18:50] <Lumpy> wait, there is a 13.04 out already
[18:51] <len-1304> No, there are daily ISOs for testing, but it is not released.
[18:51] <Lumpy> kk
[18:51] <len-1304> I test by installing and running.
[18:51] <Lumpy> then 12.04 for me
[18:51] <Lumpy> i go with the most recent LTS
[18:51] <Lumpy> but would be willing to try a daily
[18:51] <len-1304> Makes sense.
[18:52] <Lumpy> just not at this sleep deprived moment
[18:52] <len-1304> I have three HD in this machine each with a different version.
[18:53] <Lumpy> i still use hotswaps
[18:53] <Lumpy> and have three Os's on the main maching atm
[18:53] <Lumpy> i do it a bit different than most though
[18:54] <Lumpy> i use different drives for swap and temp usually
[18:54] <Lumpy> take advantage of FIFO and IDE
[18:54] <len-1304> I have 11.10, 12.04 and I have the latest testing ISO on a 40g USB drive.
[18:54] <Lumpy> I also use multiple swaps for speed
[18:55] <Lumpy> nix can capitalize on multiple swaps similar to RAID
[18:55] <len-1304> I have multiple swaps... but more by accident. I consider swap a no-no for audio.
[18:55] <Lumpy> my newest mobo bios is 1999
[18:55] <Lumpy> why so, that i would love to learn about
[18:56] <len-1304> I actually had a ram drive swap setup at one point. Anytime it got used audio dropped out.
[18:56] <Lumpy> i haven't had that issue
[18:56] <Lumpy> the only time i had audio drop out was with this pulse thing recently
[18:57] <len-1304> Most audio apps try to lock memory, but it only takes one in the chain not to to give dropouts.
[18:57] <Lumpy> i don't enable lock out in jack
[18:57] <len-1304> I have not had real problems with pulse. So long as it is setup exactly right.
[18:57] <Lumpy> but i do use the low latency
[18:58] <Lumpy> that is one thing i would like to learn for sure
[18:58] <len-1304> If you set up jack RT it locks memory
[18:58] <Lumpy> that is what i thought
[18:58] <Lumpy> so, more or less, it do allow lock
[18:59] <len-1304> If you start Jack in RT on a generic kernel it will fail as unable to lock memory
[18:59] <Lumpy> ahh
[18:59] <len-1304> Then it will tell you it can't find the device.
[18:59] <Lumpy> so, in a sense, i am working against myself
[18:59] <Lumpy> but i don't get that error in jack message
[19:00] <len-1304> The low latency kernel is the same as the generic except for one setting.
[19:00] <Lumpy> would i have to look at the kernel for that?
[19:00] <Lumpy> the nice setting maybe?
[19:00] <len-1304> If you use the lowlatency kernel it should be fine.
[19:00] <Lumpy> i do
[19:00] <len-1304> nice does not effect something using preempt.
[19:00] <Lumpy> kk
[19:00] <Lumpy> so i /should/ be fine
[19:01] <len-1304> Ya.
[19:01] <Lumpy> that whole "in theory" part anyhow
[19:01] <Lumpy> but my ears, recently, strongly disagreed
[19:01] <len-1304> On my netbook, I shut down some of the services to make it work.
[19:02] <Lumpy> i am going to have to, unfortunately, cut this short
[19:02] <len-1304> mysql, cron(and friends) I remove my wifi driver.
[19:02] <Lumpy> i gotta get a nap in and take the kid to see christmas lights
[19:02] <len-1304> NP I sent an email. So you can send some thing when ever
[19:02] <len-1304> Bye
[19:02] <Lumpy> i am certainly going to pick your brain later though.
[19:02] <Lumpy> nini
[19:21]  * len-dt thinks "Automatically show and hide the panel" for the bottom panel is a bad default.
[19:22] <holstein> i think the bottom panel is a bad idea
[19:22] <holstein> i think its a crap way to try and look "apple-ish"..
[19:23] <len-dt> holstein, that too, but if it is there, it should alwys show otherwise I am always triggering it when I get close on the screen.
[19:23] <holstein> len-dt: its the first thing i remove
[19:23] <len-dt> Scott has plans for it, but I would prefer to come with a new workflow app instead.
[19:24] <holstein> hmmm... i could go either way on that
[19:24] <len-dt> The pannel can not be upgraded.
[19:24] <holstein> its nice because its a panel and not a dock.. no extra resources to speack of being used by it
[19:25] <len-dt> Once the user runs the session once it never looks at the system default again.
[19:25] <len-dt> So if we come up with a new idea for the panel the only way to implement it is to reinstall the OS.
[19:26] <len-dt> Anyway, I was just expressing an opinion :)
[19:26] <len-dt> Settings are there so the user can make changes to suit
[19:27] <holstein> i have always not liked the fake-dock panel
[19:27] <holstein> i have never heard anything positive about it either
[19:27] <holstein> not just US.. xubuntu
[19:27] <holstein> i hear reviews that are like "whats up with that dock"
[19:28] <len-dt> Ya, I think xfce includes it by default more to show the user it can be done than as something that should be used
[19:28] <holstein> len-dt: maybe.. i thought it was just a xubuntu thing though
[19:28] <holstein> and its nice that its not taking up resources
[19:28] <len-dt> No it is stock with any xfce install.
[19:29] <len-dt> xubuntu and Studio do customize it though
[19:31] <len-dt> holstein, I am going to try setting up idjc to help out lumpy, but also because I think the workflow is used by enough people it is worth figuring out. It would work well for podcast too.
[19:49] <holstein> len-dt: its been something i wanted to test for a while too
[19:51] <len-dt> Ya, I have pretty much done my bit for 13.04 ... at least until I can test it. :)
[19:51] <len-dt> So this is something else I can do. I should look at the blue prints, but I have more limited time this cycle.
[20:12] <len-dt> holstein, from looking at idjc, I would say that low latency without being RT (less than 10ms) would still be useful. That is the anouncer doesn't need to monitor the microphone so much as the fade of the stream to announce over.
[20:12] <len-dt> So some delay would be ok.
[20:13] <len-dt> Going from 80ms to 20ms would be helpful.
[20:23] <holstein> not a deal breaker though..
[20:24] <holstein> even if its half a second or more
[20:29] <len-dt> holstein,  If I was announcing a half second would be annoying
[20:33] <holstein> len-dt: maybe even annoying enough to scrape $40us together and buy an appropriate sound device
[20:35] <len-dt> I can run my ensoniq at p64 easy enough. Even p128 would be fine.
[20:35] <len-dt> But yes, I agree.
[21:09] <len-dt> Our (ubuntu repo) verson of idjc is one version behind. The changes look mostly cosmetic that I can tell.
[21:47] <Lump|AFK> heyas
[21:47] <Lump|AFK> here for a hot minute and just read up
[21:47] <len-dt> hello
[21:48] <Lump|AFK> as far as the dock goes, Mint XFCE give you the option to skip it on install
[21:48] <Lump|AFK> and I don't recall the option on ubuntustudio
[21:48] <Lump|AFK> but, for what it is worth, I use it
[21:49] <Lump|AFK> though i don't give a darn for the apple look
[21:49] <Lump|AFK> and as far as work flow goes
[21:49] <len-dt> The dock is in for now. I use it sort of but move it to the left side instead of the bottom and make it smaller.
[21:49] <Lump|AFK> idjc is great
[21:49] <Lump|AFK> brb
[21:49] <len-dt> What is your signal chain?
[21:50] <Lump|AFK> what do you mean by signal chain?
[21:51] <Lump|AFK> and i also have played with Tango Studio
[21:51] <len-dt> Like mic -> idjc -> icecast -> whatever
[21:51] <Lump|AFK> idjc is somewhat different in that version
[21:51] <Lump|AFK> oh, system in -> meterbridge -> idjc -> icecast
[21:52] <len-dt> I see you mentioned novacast, is that sw or the server you use?
[21:52] <Lump|AFK> and i just use the built in recorder in idjc for the mp3
[21:52] <len-dt> Is icecast local or on the server?
[21:52] <Lump|AFK> on the server
[21:53] <Lump|AFK> and the centovacast is server side software that we use to generate our autdj playlist and such
[21:53] <Lump|AFK> it is not free but the best we have found to date
[21:53] <Lump|AFK> i think a one time license is 190 bucks or there abouts
[21:53] <len-dt> You speak of teamspeak, do you use the audio "on air"
[21:54] <Lump|AFK> atm, we run TS on another pc locally, (we host the server on our site) and patch it in through the mixer
[21:54] <Lump|AFK> ideally and eventually, i would like to run it on the same machine as idjc and use jack
[21:54] <Lump|AFK> but that may not work out on my older hardware
[21:55] <Lump|AFK> my philosphy is "i have cycles, use em all"
[21:55] <len-dt> So yes. Does TS expect to use pulse?
[21:55] <Lump|AFK> at least in the default install it does
[21:55] <Lump|AFK> brb one more time
[21:55] <len-dt> That should not be a problem.
[21:56]  * len-dt is going to do some family time now that we are all here.
[21:56] <Lump|AFK> i am about 3 min from done dinner and then we are off to see christmas lights
[21:56] <Lump|AFK> i will bbl and hopefully catch you all then
[21:56] <len-dt> Lump|AFK, I will be back later too feel free to send email.
[21:57] <Lump|AFK> oh you know i will
[21:57] <Lump|AFK> looking forward to many more convos on this and related topics
[21:57]  * Lump|AFK luvs this stuff, even when it gets frustrating
[21:57] <Lump|AFK> ttyl all
[21:57] <len-dt> bye