[05:08] <holstein> zequence: las says its a packaging issue on our end
[05:08] <holstein> says its not debian.. just ubuntu
[05:08] <holstein> zequence: if i get a chance to confirm that its happening for ubuntu, i could try debian
[06:11] <zequence> holstein: jackd is imported directly from Debian. I think las just needs to get his facts straight on this one
[06:12] <falktx__> qjackctl is the culprit
[06:12] <zequence> of what?
[06:12] <falktx__> on ubuntu the command to start it is "pasuspend qjackctl"
[06:13] <falktx__> that might be something useful to know
[06:14] <zequence> falktx__: its': pasuspender -- qjackctl
[06:15] <zequence> but it's not used
[06:16] <zequence> it's in the starter script for qjackctl, but without analyzing it further (edited in 2011), it doesn't do anything else than start qjackctl
[06:16] <zequence> PA is not suspended
[06:18] <zequence> it might be, it's supposed to suspend PA when qjakctl launches a jack based command, but it doesn't
[06:21] <falktx__> I don't know about it either
[06:22]  * falktx__ doesn't use qjackctl
[06:27] <zequence> anyway, it's the same on Debian
[06:27] <zequence> So, it's not Ubuntu specific
[06:27] <zequence> And it's not the source of the problem described initially
[06:30] <Len-nb> zequence, when we got the latest PA it started happening. PA does release the port, but jackdbus does not pick it up. It is as if jackdbus tries to pick it up too soon. Or pa releases it but doesn't properly tell jackdbus it has.
[06:31] <Len-nb> It works fine if PA has not yet emitted any sound. The problem is the same using qjackctl or jack_control
[06:31] <zequence> Len-nb: PA doesn't release the card if it's streaming audio. This is true on all releases, at least post 12.04
[06:32] <Len-nb> The stream stops.
[06:32] <Len-nb> PA shows no port las t I looked.
[06:33] <zequence> Len-nb: Is this when having pulseaudio-module-jack enabled?
[06:33] <zequence> Cause, if yes, then it's a different problem
[06:33] <Len-nb> trying to start Jack a second time restarts the stream
[06:34] <Len-nb> I'll have to play again some more.
[06:34] <zequence> Len-nb: Is this when having pulseaudio-module-jack enabled?
[06:36] <zequence> To check, see if it's installed. Whenever you start jackdbus, it's what you use
[06:36] <len-1304> I thought it was by default.
[06:36] <zequence> It is
[06:36] <zequence> And then it's a different problem
[06:38] <zequence> pulseaudio-module-jack is installed on US by default. If, like the person who had the initial problem, you install qjackctl on Vanilla Ubuntu, you won't get the module
[06:39] <zequence> It's a dependency only of a coupld of US metas
[06:41] <zequence> holstein: So, again. Debian and Ubuntu packages are the same. The fault is *not* in the packaging. Only in the confusion created by everyone participating in this comversation
[06:42] <len-1304> Ja
[06:43] <len-1304> The major change is a new PA from 12.04
[06:44] <len-1304> 12.04 worked with or with out pulseaudio-module-jack loaded
[06:44] <len-1304> The new version of PA was released shortly into 12.10
[06:46] <zequence> Len-nb: What is working, and not working?
[06:49] <len-1304> in 13.04? Jack works if it is started before PA is used.
[06:50] <len-1304> if PA is streaming and jack is started, PA stops streaming but jack fails to start
[06:50] <len-1304> On jack exit PA starts streaming again
[06:51] <len-1304> once PA has stopped streaming jack can start
[06:53] <len-1304> Yuck! to make me wrong, I started jack while PA was streaming, Jack started, PA auto switched the stream to jack bridge and continued to play.
[06:57] <len-1304> If PA has been streaming but is no longer, then jack can't start.
[07:03] <zequence> Len-nb: Well, you're talking about pulseaudio-module-jack woes anyway
[07:07] <len-1304> Unloaded pulseaudio-module-jack, Problem seems to get worse.
[07:08] <len-1304> jack_control exit then jack_control start seems to always work.
[07:08] <zequence> Len-nb: It's not the same problem
[07:08] <len-1304> jack_control exit then start then stop then start again fails.
[07:09] <len-1304> In other words, jack can only be started once after jackdbus is running.
[07:09] <len-1304> No PA streaming involved.
[07:11] <len-1304> However, suspending PA solves the problem.
[07:11] <zequence> I'm getting on a plane soon. See you guys tomorrow
[07:12] <len-1304> Bye now.
[15:57] <holstein> zequence: im just repeating what i was told.. and havent had a chance to test
[15:57] <holstein> zequence: when las and *everyone* else in #ardour says "its ubuntu's fault" i like to address that
[15:57] <holstein> zequence: AFAIK, there are packagers and things get repackaged
[15:58] <holstein> las is saying in that process JACK is causing this issue.. and i have not tested to see if i can replicate yet
[15:58] <holstein> he and others also *always* blame any ardour issues on ubuntu repackaging
[15:59] <holstein> for years in the #ardour channel, you get las's version because the ubuntu version is broken, otherwise he doesnt support it
[16:05] <ttoine> hello !!!
[17:29] <len-1304> holstein, zequence is there a way we can test with the PA version we shipped with 12.04?
[17:44] <len-1304> That is use it with the jack in 12.10/13.04
[19:26] <zequence> Len-nb: I'm going to SRU jackd to 12.10 and 12.04. Until then, it's possible to build it on PPA for those
[19:28] <zequence> holstein: if las can't help someone on jack with their issue, I don't mind him redirecting those people to #ubuntustudio
[19:28] <holstein> zequence: las wont
[19:29] <zequence> I'll have a chat with him some day. The issues that the guy was having had in not way anything to do with Ubuntu
[19:30] <zequence> I'd like to know a bit more about the packaging, and the code first
[19:30] <zequence> not sure how much las knows about jackd2, dbus and pulseaudio
[19:31] <holstein> zequence: las and *everyone* else in ardour just blames US
[19:32] <holstein> the vibe is, ubuntustudio is not appropriate
[19:32] <zequence> holstein: I guess we have to put a stop to it then
[19:32] <holstein> zequence: im working on it
[19:32] <zequence> In any way, their claims do not lod water
[19:32] <zequence> hold*
[19:33] <zequence> I'm guessing what is lacking is just better code
[19:33] <zequence> in jackd, and maybe pulseaudio
[19:33] <zequence> can't see anything about packaging that would make any difference so far
[19:33] <holstein> i dont know enough to comment about that
[19:33] <holstein> i just know, thats wht FUD
[19:34] <holstein> is it warranted? i think we can look at our history and see that it is
[19:34] <len-1304> zequence, is there any way we can try the old version of PA on 12.10 or 13.04?
[19:35] <len-1304> The only problems I am having in 13.04 are tied to PA. Both with and without bridging.
[19:35] <len-1304> jack just works is PA is suspended.
[19:37] <zequence> I've actually done very little testing with PA being suspended
[19:38] <len-1304> I did some last night.
[19:38] <zequence> len-1304: It is possible to customize the package selection, but it might get tricky with dependencies
[19:38] <len-1304> The trouble seemed to start when the newest version of PA was introduced.
[19:39] <zequence> len-1304: I haven't done much of that on Ubuntu, but you should be able to upgrade some packages to a newer release using apt. Don't know about the other way around
[19:39] <len-1304> I just want to test. I am not suggesting we try to package a wrong version.
[19:40] <len-1304> If there is a problem with PA at least we can file a regression
[19:41] <len-1304> My thought though, is that PA takes a little longer at releasing the port than it used to. And that jackd grabs the port before PA has finished releasing it.
[19:41] <len-1304> A delay in jackd might just fix the problem
[19:42] <len-1304> every once in a while jackd seems to start just fine when PA is streaming.
[19:43] <zequence> I think probably the guy to talk to about this is David H. I'd like to wait until the week after new year before doing that. I'll do the SRU's then too
[19:43] <len-1304> Could be. 
[19:43] <zequence> Would be good for us to understand it well enough so we understand the code. 
[19:44] <zequence> So, we at least know how it is supposed to work, what works, and what doesn't
[19:44] <len-1304> zequence, the other way to test would be to install 12.04, test, install the newer PA package and test again.
[19:44] <zequence> At this point, we are just poking the dead animal to see if it's still alive
[19:44] <len-1304> Just sick.
[19:47] <zequence> len-1304: You could try #pulseaudio to see if anyone knows anything about that portion of the code/functionality
[19:52] <zequence> I've begun studying c and the gnu c compiler. I recommend this book if anyone wants to learn more about building software on GNU http://www.network-theory.co.uk/docs/gccintro/
[19:53] <zequence> I found it really good, especially if you already know some c
[20:11] <len-1304> The problem I see, is people. The jack/ardour people want things totally controlled exactly the way they ship it or "it's a packaging problem". They hate pulse (from what I can tell). The part of jack that allows PA bridging (from what I can tell) is written and maintained by pulse who feels pulse does "everything" anyway.
[20:14] <zequence> len-1304: If we can find out what the problems are, at least we can set things straight with those people
[20:14] <zequence> And preferably, we can push towards having them fixed
[20:14] <zequence> by writing our own code, if we have to
[20:14] <len-1304> Ya, That is why I want to try different versions of jack/PA against each other.
[20:15] <len-1304> I would like to have repeatable works/not situations to deal with.
[20:16] <zequence> len-1304: I actually don't think the PA/jack dbus negotiation is that difficult to understand in code. I'd like to do that, and then do proper debugging if needed to see what is working and not.
[20:17] <zequence> I'm hoping David H can assist at this next week, and if there are still questions, I'll do some queries on mail lists
[20:18] <len-1304> Sounds good. I like some of the new stuff in PA. When it works it works better than before.
[21:25] <ttoine> hello !!
[21:25] <len-1304> hello
[21:25] <ttoine> I am dad again ;-)
[21:26] <len-1304> Yahoo!
[21:26] <ttoine> a little boy
[21:26] <len-1304> All ours are boys.
[21:26] <len-1304> They grow so quick.
[21:26] <ttoine> yes... my first boy is 3 and half... I can't remember he was so small
[21:27] <len-1304> our last one wasn't so small at 9pounds 9ounces at birth.
[21:27] <ttoine> zequence, I saw some activity on a Ubuntu Studio facebook page... Is it someone of the team ?
[21:28] <ttoine> len-1304, what a baby, around 4.5 kg, right ? I hope it was not so hard for the mother...
[21:28] <len-1304> It was tough. she is small just over 5foot high
[21:29] <len-1304> Her first one was 6 pounds.
[21:30] <ttoine> len-1304, quite the same than for my brother's wife, actually
[21:30] <len-1304> Before he was born her belly was bright red
[21:31] <ttoine> len-1304, I guess you are american, british or something like that
[21:31] <len-1304> Canadain
[21:31] <len-1304> (can spell... Canadian)
[21:31] <ttoine> common weatl
[21:31] <ttoine> wealth
[21:32] <len-1304> For what that worth any more.
[21:32] <ttoine> so pounds, foot, inches, ,...
[21:32] <len-1304> And Km/h
[21:32] <ttoine> not mile per hours ?
[21:32] <len-1304> We are sort of a mix
[21:32] <len-1304> Body weight on a DL is in KG.
[21:33] <len-1304> Buildings are all in/ft
[21:34] <ttoine> wow... so you know and use both
[21:34] <len-1304> The whole country was surveyed in acres and sections, so they are still used, a news cast about a forest fire will talk hectares
[21:34] <ttoine> are you an english canadian, or you speak french too ?
[21:34] <len-1304> medicine is all metric.
[21:34] <len-1304> english, bash, perl, tcl...
[21:35] <ttoine> lol...
[21:35] <ttoine> hum, sorry for that
[21:36] <zequence> ttoine: Seems like perhaps Scott changed settings for that page, making it possible for anyone to post on the wall
[21:36] <ttoine> zequence, ok
[21:37] <len-1304> I think all the schools are working hard to convert the kids to only metric, but they end up learning inches and feet at home.
[21:37] <zequence> ttoine: Ah, no. It was like that before too?
[21:37] <ttoine> perhaps it would be good that the PR team can be admin of the page, and moderate it too
[21:38] <zequence> ttoine: Congratulations, btw :)
[21:38] <ttoine> zequence, thnaks ;-)
[21:38] <ttoine> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ubuntu-Studio/277602442279689?fref=ts
[21:38] <ttoine> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ubuntu-Studio/105436909489464?fref=ts
[21:38] <ttoine> https://www.facebook.com/Ubuntustudio?fref=ts
[21:41] <zequence> ttoine: The second link. What is that? "interest"
[21:42] <zequence> There's some text from wiki, and I see a post that I posted on my own wall
[21:43] <zequence> Ah, only when I'm logged in with my own account
[21:45] <zequence> Only two guys seem to be active on the first page :)
[21:45] <zequence> The official page needs to be prettier I think
[21:47] <ttoine> zequence, sure. having the blue logo in the square would be nice, instead of untu
[21:48] <ttoine> I think we can keep the actual banner, but add Ubuntu Studio, and a few text like The Mulitmedia Linux distribution
[21:49] <zequence> We were talking about adding a slogan to the website. The one that is in the plymoth theme. What was it again?
[21:50] <zequence> I think the logo is given
[21:50] <ttoine> zequence, mixbus is only 40 $ during holidays
[21:51] <ttoine> zequence, you think scott can add some people to the admin of the facebook page ?
[21:52] <ttoine> zequence, and second point, instead of using jetpack, we can use twitterfeed. It is less integrated to wordpress but works great with any rss
[21:52] <zequence> ttoine: I guess so (fb / admin). 
[21:52] <zequence> ttoine: Can you post to the other sites with twitterfeed? (facebook, twitter, etc)
[21:57] <ttoine> zequence, dixit theFor Linux, an audio-based distribution such as AVLinux, UbuntuStudio, 64Studio, or CCRMA is recommended Mixbus purchase page : 
[21:58] <ttoine> we are back in the recommandations !
[21:58] <ttoine> zequence, twitter feed get the rss and send it to twitter, linkedin and facebook
[21:59] <ttoine> it does it this way : https://www.facebook.com/pages/Libre-Factory/461210560561249 and https://twitter.com/LibreFactory
[22:01] <zequence> ttoine: I don't have any opinions about what we use, as long as it's simple, and requires little effort. I like the idea of posting on our own site, and having the posts go to social sites.
[22:02] <zequence> Since we don't administrate the wp server ourselves, it's difficult to make changes
[22:02] <ttoine> zequence, i use twitterfeed for my customers blogs when I can't use jetpack
[22:02] <zequence> So, it would be good to decide on one thing, and then go for it
[22:03] <zequence> ttoine: You mean, use that until jetpack is installed?
[22:03] <ttoine> zequence, the matter with jetpack, is that it can create problems with other plugins
[22:04] <ttoine> example, ubuntu is using discuss for comments, and jetpack has a comment manager too
[22:04] <ttoine> so I can easily understand that Ubuntu is not ready to use jetpack on their wordpress blogs
[22:05] <zequence> ttoine: So, you recommend we do not install jetpack?
[22:05] <ttoine> zequence, to do the plugins and core wordpress updates, the ftp logins are needed. you know if knome or scott know this ?
[22:05] <ttoine> zequence, if it possible I am for
[22:06] <ttoine> but I not sure that ubuntu will allow it soon
[22:06] <zequence> ttoine: No. we do not have ftp access
[22:06] <ttoine> so the best way is to use twitterfeed instead
[22:06] <ttoine> zequence, so it means that we may have security problems with old plugins versions
[22:06] <zequence> ttoine: That is why we need to create tickets in rt.ubuntu.com
[22:06] <ttoine> I hope  Canonical know that
[22:07] <zequence> I'm not so sure they pay that much attention to that 
[22:09] <ttoine> zequence, I am purchasing a full package mixbus + essentials + linuxdsp... for less than half the price of mixbus alone... crazy
[22:10] <zequence> I bought mixbus and the linuxdsp plugs last summer
[22:10] <ttoine> zequence, maybe I should create a ticket ? one more ? they didn't managed the previous ones...
[22:12] <zequence> ttoine: We could add a comment to the jetpack installation that they should update everything
[22:13] <zequence> ttoine: So, no doubts about jetpack?
[22:14] <ttoine> zequence, I am pretty sure it will not be possible to use jetpack soon
[22:15] <ttoine> if it takes them 3 monthes to create emails aliases
[22:15] <ttoine> they won't bother themselves with testing a so huge plugin
[22:17] <zequence> ttoine: I'm just concerned that we ask them to install something that we may not want. I just want to be sure we want it. 
[22:18] <ttoine> zequence, it would be great
[22:18] <zequence> In that case, I'll comment on the existing ticket, and ask them to also update WP and all its plugins
[22:19] <ttoine> it is a great addon to manage wordpress (stats, comments subscriptions, social networks connections, etc...)
[22:19] <ttoine> So if we can have it, it would just be wonderful
[22:23] <zequence> https://rt.ubuntu.com//Ticket/Display.html?id=20726&results=b60888250f9a431aa6717294afa92f55
[22:23] <zequence> It's been a bit over a month now. There are other tickets that are waiting too, so it's not like we're the only ones waiting :)
[22:25] <ttoine> zequence, I see that...
[22:26] <ttoine> I just hope it will be handled soon
[22:27] <len-1304> zequence, Just a quick note, when we added kdenlive we seem to have gotten K3B as well. So whoever wanted it.. we got it.
[22:27] <zequence> ttoine: If there's no response during the first week of January, I'll start poking around, and perhaps ask for ftp access
[22:27] <ttoine> well it is 11:30pm here, I will try to sleep a bit before my sons wake up
[22:28] <ttoine> zequence, at least, it would be great to have security updates done
[22:28] <ttoine> have a nice night, gentlemen ;-)
[22:28] <zequence> ttoine: Sleep well :). 
[22:28] <ttoine> thanks. and you, think about sleeping ;-)
[22:28] <len-1304> With a new baby in the house?
[22:29] <ttoine> len-1304, I know what you are thinking ;-)
[22:29] <ttoine> maybe, see you later in the night ;-)