[00:46] <TheMuso> Hrmmm. Seems the nexus 7 daily images are not very zsyncable.
[02:03] <robru> anybody here have any experience setting up a project to use valadoc?
[03:14] <TheMuso> RAOF, jasoncwarner, hope you guys are keeping comfortable today.
[03:15]  * RAOF has just been offered an ice cream. He's pretty comfortable.
[03:15] <TheMuso> If its refreshing, thats all that matters I guess.
[03:18] <cheebu> Hi all
[03:19] <cheebu> I have a Radeon HD 6470M Graphics card are there drivers for it on ubuntu
[03:25] <RAOF> cheebu: Yes; you're after #ubuntu for support questions, though
[03:37] <duflu> smspillaz: Hello?
[04:16] <smspillaz> duflu: howdy
[04:17] <smspillaz> sorry for the late response, I found on old TV on a verge and can finally play skyward sword after my tv was broken for about a year
[04:19] <smspillaz> desrt: do you know what the most sensible approach for projects using glib + gcc 4.8 are at this point ?
[04:19] <smspillaz> just detect the compiler and disable the warning?
[04:19] <smspillaz> I believe its PS policy to use -Werror, as much as I dislike it
[04:20] <smspillaz> desrt: FWIW, pretty much every other library that uses static asserts in its headers got screwed by this change too :)
[04:20] <smspillaz> boost, v8 etc etc
[04:23] <duflu> smspillaz: I was going to mention that I will be aiming to tag a 0.9.9.0 within hours/days. Only really bad regressions need to be squeezed in. The rest can go for 0.9.9.2.
[04:23] <smspillaz> duflu: sure thing. do compiler errors count as bad regressions ?
[04:23] <duflu> Also, I will be at a sprint from the end of next week and all the following week.
[04:23] <smspillaz> lovely
[04:24] <duflu> smspillaz: Only if it's the compiler version native to that release
[04:24] <smspillaz> duflu: does clang count ?
[04:24] <duflu> smspillaz: Depends on triviality of the fix and whether there is one already
[04:24] <micahg> only if you're running on BSD :)
[04:24] <smspillaz> duflu: hrm, I didn't know they were doing sprints in the mid-year
[04:25] <smspillaz> I thought they had canned the whole "lets fly the company everywhere" policy by the time I left :)
[04:25] <duflu> smspillaz: *shrug*
[04:25]  * duflu goes to finish lunch and dishes
[04:26] <smspillaz> duflu: can you check if either dbarth or iftikhar amed are going? I have a laptop to give them
[04:26] <smspillaz> and I can't post it because FedEx hates me
[04:26] <duflu> smspillaz: Yes dbarth confirmed. Drop it over I guess
[04:26]  * duflu goes afk
[05:39] <pitti> Good morning
[05:39] <pitti> and happy new year everyone!
[06:26] <didrocks> good morning!
[06:29] <duflu> Morning didrocks, pitti
[06:29] <didrocks> hey duflu, how were your holidays?
[06:30] <duflu> didrocks: Very busy with Christmas and home improvement. But sleeping in was excellent. You??
[06:30] <pitti> bonjour didrocks, je tu souhaite une bonne année!
[06:30] <pitti> hey duflu, how are you?
[06:31] <duflu> Good thanks pitti
[06:31] <duflu> How was the holiday(s)?
[06:31] <didrocks> guten morgen pitti! Bonne année à toi aussi :)
[06:31] <didrocks> duflu: was good as well, even had the opportunity to take a day for skying :)
[06:31] <pitti> I enjoyed ours very much; we'd been in Dresden
[06:32] <pitti> didrocks: what is skying? you had a parachute, I hope?
[06:32] <duflu> Heh, didrocks 007
[06:32] <didrocks> pitti: duflu: ok, always trapped by this one :p "go skiing" :)
[06:32] <pitti> ooh
[06:33] <duflu> English sucks. And don't forget vacuum
[06:34] <didrocks> :)
[07:29] <didrocks> hey Laney, how are you?
[09:04] <Laney> morning!
[09:05] <didrocks> hey Laney!
[09:05] <Laney> hey
[09:05] <Laney> how's it going? well rested? :-)
[09:06] <didrocks> not that much in fact, I couldn't disconnect mentally weirdly
[09:06] <didrocks> even if I didn't work
[09:06] <didrocks> well, I still have a week of skiing at the end of the month, so I'll use that :)
[09:06] <didrocks> and you? how were your holidays?
[09:07] <Laney> good, spent some time with my family and then with my girlfriend's family
[09:07] <Laney> then went to the countryside in wales for new years
[09:07] <didrocks> sweet :)
[09:10] <Laney> I received a record player for christmas too so I've been becoming a vinyl nerd :P
[09:10] <didrocks> ahah, excellent! big collection of vinyls? :)
[09:15] <Laney> not yet, but hopefully soon!
[09:16]  * Laney spies much unread email
[09:17] <didrocks> Laney: FYI, ubuntu-themes is automatically merged
[09:18] <didrocks> Laney: so no need to merge yourself (actually it's worse because you have to bump the version yourself, and we don't have automagic changelog)
[09:18] <Laney> didrocks: aha, we did wonder about that
[09:19] <Laney> I was asking what to do about the changelog at the time
[09:19] <didrocks> Laney: wasn't cyphermox around?
[09:19] <Laney> infact I don't know how to work with these auto packages any more really
[09:19] <didrocks> he should be knowledgeable about it :)
[09:19] <Laney> I think I spoke with jibel but he was also unsure
[09:20] <didrocks> Laney: ok, cyphermox should have it picked up and looked at the merge, anyway, no worry for this one, it's more a FYI :)
[09:21] <Laney> thanks, the information is good
[09:21] <Laney> is there documentation for how to work with these packages?
[09:22] <didrocks> Laney: not yet, but normally the person responsible for the stack should pick it up when looking at the merge
[09:22] <didrocks> Laney: I will check that cyphermox is looking at that one
[09:23] <Laney> not sure if he is or isn't - in this case it was because the contributor pinged in here so I thought I'd look at it
[09:23] <Laney> it's good for any developer to be able to make changes if they need to anyway
[09:24] <didrocks> Laney: oh, they can and even upload
[09:24] <didrocks> Laney: it's blocking the daily build if it's not synced
[09:24] <didrocks> but as we have a merger, it's better to use it :)
[09:26] <Laney> so all that needs is an approve vote on the MP?
[09:26] <Laney> and are MPs expected to update d/changelog or is that done automatically?
[09:30] <didrocks> Laney: approve vote and change the globale status to "approved"
[09:30] <didrocks> Laney: if a bug is attached to a MP, the bug title will be use in debian/changelog
[09:30] <didrocks> linked to the author of the merge
[09:49] <mitya57> Happy new year everybody, I have an ubuntu-themes related question
[09:49] <mitya57> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/ubuntu-themes/trunk/view/head:/Ambiance/gtk-3.0/apps/gnome-terminal.css
[09:49] <mitya57> does anybody know why all that file is commented out?
[09:55] <jjardon__> Hi, does anyone know if ubuntu for phones will be libre software?
[10:09] <Laney> jjardon__: #ubuntu-phone is the place for questions about this
[10:35] <jjardon__> Laney: thanks
[11:47] <tkamppeter> pitti, hi
[12:00] <pitti> hello tkamppeter, gesundes Neues!
[12:15] <chrisccoulson> hi pitti, how are you?
[12:15] <pitti> hey chrisccoulson, happy new year!
[12:15] <didrocks> hey chrisccoulson! happy new year :)
[12:16] <chrisccoulson> pitti, didrocks, happy new year to you too :)
[12:17] <pitti> chrisccoulson: had some nice holidays?
[12:19] <chrisccoulson> pitti - yeah, it turned out ok, although i'm kinda glad it's over now. i had flu for the first week, and then 2 days before christmas we had 2 appliances fail - 1 of them being our refrigerator :(
[12:19] <chrisccoulson> so it's been an expensive few weeks ;)
[12:19] <pitti> urgh
[12:19] <pitti> I just recovered from a cold, but it was a light one
[12:20] <pitti> was nice to see family and friends again in Dresden
[12:26] <tkamppeter> pitti, dir auch, danke.
[12:26] <tkamppeter> pitti, I am trying to get this with dh_installinit working, but I have a problem.
[12:29] <tkamppeter> pitti, Axxording to the man page one has to call it with "dh_installinit --name=cups", but I do not get the build process calling it this way, make targets "override_dh_installinit/cups-daemon:" or simply "override_dh_installinit:" get simply ignored.
[12:29] <pitti> tkamppeter: in postgresql-common I just name the file debian/postgresql-common.postgresql.init
[12:30] <pitti> which ends up as /etc/init.d/postgresql.init
[12:30] <pitti> and call it with dh_installinit --name=postgresql -u'defaults 19 21' -r
[12:31] <pitti> tkamppeter: oh, it's just override_dh_installinit: if you are using dh7
[12:31] <pitti> tkamppeter: i. e. use the existing target
[12:31] <pitti> and just add the --name=cups
[12:32] <tkamppeter> pitti, so debian/rules must contain:
[12:32] <tkamppeter> override_dh_installinit:
[12:32] <tkamppeter>         dh_installinit --name=cups
[12:32] <tkamppeter> Is this correct?
[12:33] <pitti> tkamppeter: no, we also still need the existing "upstart or not" magic
[12:33] <pitti> tkamppeter: just add it to the existing rule
[12:40] <ogra_> mmm, cups
[12:40] <tkamppeter> oitti, where is this "upstart or not" magic? There is a common-install-prehook-impl:: which places the upstart file in the debian/ directory only on Ubuntu, but this should also work with the new cups-daemon package.
[12:40]  * ogra_ gets coffee
[12:42] <tkamppeter> pitti: ^^
[12:45] <pitti> tkamppeter: in override_dh_installinit: in debian/rules
[12:45] <pitti> tkamppeter: I'm looking at current git head, are you not?
[12:45] <pitti> tkamppeter: sounds like you are looking at a cdbs debian/rules
[12:46] <pitti> tkamppeter: oh indeed, raring has a different packaging
[12:46] <tkamppeter> pitti, I am in the Raring package, cups_1.6.1-0ubuntu13
[12:46] <pitti> seems between raring and debian git there's quite some divergence
[12:46] <pitti> tkamppeter: DEB_DH_INSTALLINIT_ARGS, just add it there
[12:48] <tkamppeter> pitti, Debian did not upload cups for months because of the test suite not working. So I have done several releases of cups Ubuntu-only. I have always added my changes to the GIT, but perhaps not taken some recent GIT changes to Ubuntu.
[12:49] <pitti> tkamppeter: well, it's equally bad for the tests to not succeed in Ubuntu :)
[12:49] <pitti> before you know it they will show a really important failure, and nobody will notice
[12:49] <tkamppeter> pitti found the DEB_DH_INSTALLINIT_ARGS place, so I add the --name=cups there.
[13:01] <tkamppeter> pitti, thank you very much, it is working correctly now. I had overlooked the init magic in the beginning of debian/rules.
[13:17] <pitti> tkamppeter: great! (sorry, was off to lunch)
[14:40] <cyphermox> didrocks: which merge did I miss?
[14:41] <didrocks> hey cyphermox!
[14:41] <didrocks> cyphermox: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/ubuntu-themes/trunk
[14:41] <didrocks> https://code.launchpad.net/~mitya57/ubuntu-themes/remove-desktop
[14:42] <didrocks> cyphermox: how are you btw? how were your holidays?
[14:42] <cyphermox> good, good
[14:43] <didrocks> cyphermox: btw, I think you noticed there is another recent merge on ubuntu-themes (but maybe it needs more digging)
[14:43] <cyphermox> yeah
[14:44] <didrocks> cyphermox: also FYI, I finally added the commit message for ido and approved https://code.launchpad.net/~robert-ancell/ido/lp582985/+merge/139791
[14:44] <didrocks> cyphermox: if you see things are forgotten or not moving, feel free to do this kind of things
[14:44] <cyphermox> ok
[14:44] <desrt> smspillaz: "don't use -Werror"
[14:44] <desrt> smspillaz: pretty simple universal advise for everyone.
[14:45] <desrt> you didn't get 'screwed' by a GCC change.  you got screwed by your use of -Werror.
[14:45] <didrocks> cyphermox: let's discuss on Monday how the indicator stack progressed between you and mterry looking at it the week before my holidays :)
[14:46] <didrocks> hey desrt!
[14:46] <didrocks> good holidays?
[14:46] <larsu> didrocks, !!!
[14:46] <larsu> didrocks, how are you?
[14:46] <didrocks> hey larsu!!! ;)
[14:47] <didrocks> larsu: I'm good, thanks! yourself?
[14:47] <larsu> didrocks, good, thanks
[14:47] <larsu> didrocks, is this your first day back?
[14:47] <didrocks> larsu: right, and you? when did you get back?
[14:47] <didrocks> I didn't manage to disconnect mentally during holidays though, so looking forward for this week of skiing at the end of month :/
[14:48] <pitti> hey desrt, hello cyphermox! happy new year!
[14:48] <cyphermox> hey pitti, happy new year
[14:50] <larsu> didrocks, two days ago, but I haven't been very productive yet :)
[14:50] <larsu> didrocks, lots of catching up
[14:50] <larsu> hi cyphermox!
[14:50]  * pitti hands didrocks a big "off" switch for the brain
[14:50] <pitti> hey larsu, wie gehts?
[14:50] <pitti> catch up> OMGpainyes
[14:50]  * didrocks grabs it gladely and will use it next time :)
[14:50] <pitti> took me 5 hours to get my ubuntu mbox down to 2 and my lists folder < 30
[14:50] <didrocks> larsu: heh, here as well :)
[14:51] <larsu> pitti, gut danke. Et toi?
[14:51] <pitti> larsu: prima, danke!
[14:51] <larsu> :)
[14:53] <smspillaz> desrt: its not really my decision sadly
[14:54] <smspillaz> desrt: plus, -Werror is handy ... sometimes
[14:54] <smspillaz> desrt: and to be fair, we got screwed by a gcc change causing some broken header file to stop compiling :)
[14:54] <smspillaz> our code isn't broken :)
[14:55] <smspillaz> now it just happened there were a lot of broken header files out there
[14:55] <desrt> the header file isn't broken either
[14:55] <desrt> it's perfectly conforming to the C language specification
[14:55] <smspillaz> desrt: if the compiler is warning about an unused typedef then you should probably fix that
[14:56] <smspillaz> however pendantic it seems
[14:56] <desrt> the compiler (incorrectly) assumes that there is no reason to ever have unused typedefs
[14:56] <desrt> it knows that it may be wrong
[14:56] <desrt> that's why it's only a warning and not an error
[14:56] <smspillaz> desrt: I think the warning is stupid too
[14:56] <smspillaz> but its still a warning
[14:56] <smspillaz> and it still breaks anyone who uses -Werror
[14:56] <desrt> you ask for the unreasonable behaviour when you give -Werror
[14:56] <desrt> and i have no pity :)
[14:56] <smspillaz> no, we ask for the compiler to make us fix bad behaviour and not let it slip by
[14:57] <smspillaz> its not exactly FuckItJS
[14:57] <smspillaz> (which I read about the other day, and is like -Werror on steroids)
[14:57] <desrt> my point is that not every warning is a case of 'bad behaviour'
[14:57] <smspillaz> desrt: well, we could turn the warning off
[14:58] <smspillaz> desrt: unfortunately, in a marvel of gcc stupidity, its a new compiler option
[14:58] <desrt> if you fancy playing whack-a-mole :)
[14:58] <desrt> smspillaz: -Wno-error=....
[14:58] <smspillaz> desrt: -Wno-error=unused-typedefs doens't work with old compilers
[14:58] <desrt> are you sure?
[14:58] <smspillaz> because .......... oh wait, that option never existed
[14:58] <smspillaz> yep, I've tried it
[14:59] <smspillaz> it also doesn't work with clang, which the powers the be insist that everything also compiles with
[14:59] <desrt> oh christ that's stupid
[14:59] <smspillaz> desrt: in any case, gnome will make a lot of people happy by just fixing the warning :)
[15:00] <smspillaz> and save N maintainers from having to add crappy compiler detection code to their buildsytem so that they can turn off a warning :)
[15:01] <desrt> i agree
[15:01] <smspillaz> desrt: I also concur that gcc would make N * M people happy if they didn't warn about unused typedefs in the first place :)
[15:01] <desrt> problem is, it's difficult to fix
[15:01] <smspillaz> desrt: yeah, I saw :(
[15:01] <desrt> for the same reason that you'd have to add compiler detection, so would we
[15:01] <desrt> and we'd have to figure out how to do it at compile time.......
[15:01] <smspillaz> yeah I saw, it sucks
[15:02] <smspillaz> what was that whole thing C++ having static_assert ?
[15:02] <smspillaz> C++11 mind you
[15:02] <smspillaz> I wonder if C11 got anything similar ...... ;-)
[15:03] <smspillaz> desrt: I wonder if it would make more sense to just put pressure back on the gcc folks to not warn about this
[15:03] <desrt> smspillaz: up to you :)
[15:03] <desrt> i guess you need a fix to come faster than they will reply, though
[15:03] <smspillaz> heh yeah
[15:03] <smspillaz> *sigh*
[15:04] <desrt> the alternative is that glib could stop caring about different compilers being used at glib-build and glib-user-build times
[15:04] <desrt> although in our new gcc/clang world, that seems kinda dangerous
[15:04] <smspillaz> I think this is why I've grown tired of compiled languages
[15:04] <smspillaz> or at least, languages with slightly varying compilers
[15:04] <smspillaz> and no integrated build system
[15:04]  * smspillaz misses go
[15:05] <desrt> if go is even vaguely successful in the medium/long term you will see more than one compiler, practically by definition :p
[15:08] <chrisccoulson> heh, it seems that smspillaz has the same level of love for gcc as i do atm ;)
[15:10] <smspillaz> desrt: hopefully not, the go runtime and tools cover a lot of functionality
[15:10] <smspillaz> that's just like saying there will be more than one ja---- oh wait never mind
[15:11] <desrt> looks like _Static_assert came in 4.6.0
[15:12] <smspillaz> desrt: in other "other things breaking my build" news, we had a mesa version bump where they changed a function signature so that it wasn't compliant with the spec
[15:12] <smspillaz> and then didn't change anything else in the header file to indicate the change
[15:13] <smspillaz> C is the language of insanity
[15:13] <desrt> i'm fixing glib
[15:13] <smspillaz> desrt: woohoo!
[15:14] <smspillaz> now I just need to get boost to fix their headers
[15:14] <smspillaz> boost, possibly sigc ...
[15:17] <geser> I'm looking at the FTBFS of libvirt-glib and as it's in the desktop-extra set, I'm asking for an opinion: the FTBFS is due the multi-arched Python and I wonder if should disable the build of the python module which isn't packaged at all or fix the build nonetheless (I will mail the DD about it in any case)
[15:19] <xnox> geser: fix. it's easy, there are three ways to do it. wiki.debian.org/Python/MultiArch
[15:20] <geser> xnox: even if the module doesn't get included in any deb? (I've a patch ready as this way my first idea just to find out that no deb includes the module)
[15:21] <xnox> geser: I thought it is used, via gobject-interspection by utah for example.
[15:22] <xnox> although it's python-libvirt which they use. so no idea.
[15:26] <geser> xnox: it would by the python module for libvirt-glib not libvirt itself
[15:36] <desrt> smspillaz: so uh.... ya
[15:37] <desrt> i have a patch
[15:37] <desrt> but it will cause trouble with another set of compiler flags
[15:37] <desrt> (specifically, -pedantic)
[15:38] <desrt> turns out, gcc is a big stupid head
[15:39] <desrt> it warns that this code is not valid ISO C because _Static_assert is not available everywhere:
[15:39] <desrt> #if _GCC_ > 4.6.0
[15:39] <desrt> _Static_assert(...)
[15:39] <desrt> #end
[15:40] <desrt> seems like, pedantically speaking, GCC should not be defining _GNUC_ when using -pedantic... sigh.
[15:40] <smspillaz> hahha
[15:40] <smspillaz> desrt: well, we don't use -pedantic, but I can see how that would be a problem
[15:41] <desrt> ya... i don't watch to push a patch that helps one user or a ridiculous set of flags while huring another user with a different ridiculous set of flags
[15:41] <desrt> *of
[15:42] <smspillaz> desrt: well, I think in this case, you would do #if _GCC_ > 4.6.0 _Static_assert(....) #else // old behaviour #endif
[15:42] <smspillaz> in that case, problem fixed for everyone not using -pedantic
[15:42] <desrt> yes.  that is what i'm doing.
[15:42] <smspillaz> and then everyone who uses -pedantic gets the old behaviour
[15:42] <desrt> but some people are using -pedantic
[15:42] <desrt> and, as of now, this works.
[15:42] <desrt> no...
[15:42] <smspillaz> desrt: that being said, I think you might find that -pedantic doesn't even have the warning anyways
[15:43] <desrt> the problem is that gcc still defines _GNUC_ to the proper version, even with -pedantic
[15:43] <desrt> smspillaz: i just checked...
[15:43] <desrt> at least gcc 4.7 does
[15:43] <smspillaz> desrt: argh
[15:43] <smspillaz> FFS
[15:43] <smspillaz> does it define anything else when you use -pendantic ?
[15:44] <desrt> i don't want to play this kind of whack-a-mole
[15:44] <smspillaz> neither do I :(
[15:45] <desrt> anyway... there are other issues too
[15:45] <desrt> see the bug
[15:45] <smspillaz> desrt: yeah, just saw
[15:45] <smspillaz> desrt: well, we can just detect the compiler compiz-side and disable the warning
[15:46] <smspillaz> maybe in the release notes it might be worth putting something about gcc bone-headedness
[15:46] <smspillaz> in slightly more diplomatic language
[15:46] <pitti> do you actually release tarballs with -Werror?
[15:46] <smspillaz> pitti: every build for all PS projects uses -Werror
[15:46] <pitti> some projects might want to use it for building from VCS, but for "make dist" it really shouldn't be on by default
[15:46] <pitti> that's a sure way to say "f*** you" for pretty much anybody packaging it
[15:47] <smspillaz> pitti: that's a good point
[15:47] <desrt> pitti: or jhbuilders
[15:47] <desrt> which is the 'build from VCS' case, really
[15:47] <smspillaz> pitti: maybe it might be worth turning it on in CI only now that we actually have a CI
[15:47] <pitti> in one of my projects I had some configure magic to flip some -Werror=.. stuff on or off depending on whether it was a release or git; if I could remember which one..
[15:48] <pitti> desrt: yeah, wouldn't help with that
[15:48] <smspillaz> its a massive PITA for me locally too - having to do printf ("id: 0x%x\n", (unsigned int) window->id ()); is just annoying when Window is typedef unsigned long
[15:48] <pitti> FWIW, I fully agree that -Werror is not what most people want; gnome-common's set of -Werror=... is much more sensible
[15:48] <pitti> well, that's the kind of type check which actually should be on
[15:49] <smspillaz> pitti: do you have the relevant link to that ?
[15:49] <pitti> but e. g. turning deprecation warnings into errors is just wrong for releases
[15:49] <smspillaz> pitti: right, we disable deprecation warnings at least
[15:50] <pitti> smspillaz: ah, there: http://cgit.freedesktop.org/upower/tree/configure.ac#n110
[15:50] <smspillaz> pitti: if you can grab a link to the gnome-common bit I'll post a message to unity-dev suggesting that we use those -Werror flags and only do it on CI builds
[15:50] <smspillaz> pitti: great, thanks
[15:50] <pitti> smspillaz: that's not gnome-common, that's "use -Werror when building from git"
[15:50] <smspillaz> pitti: ah okay. Do you have the gnome-common link ?
[15:51] <pitti> last one I saw was https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2012-November/msg00001.html
[15:51] <desrt> smspillaz: uh...
[15:52] <smspillaz> desrt: uh ?
[15:52] <desrt> smspillaz: you know that not doing that printf cast would break your code on x86_64, right?
[15:52] <smspillaz> desrt: its for debugging purposes only
[15:52] <smspillaz> I never actually release code like that
[15:52] <desrt> how does gcc know that? :p
[15:52] <smspillaz> desrt: it bitches and won't compile my code, at least with its current compiler flags :)
[15:53] <pitti> smspillaz: http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-common/tree/doc/usage.txt, but you probably don't want to depend on gnome-common itself for compiz?
[15:53] <smspillaz> pitti: sure, just starting a discussion on which warnings we should turn into errors
[15:53] <desrt> pitti: fortunately, compiz has pluggable build systems
[15:53] <desrt> he can add this to the gnome-flavoured-automake backend
[15:53] <smspillaz> desrt: it actually used to
[15:53] <desrt> ...
[15:53] <smspillaz> no, really
[15:53] <desrt> wow
[15:53] <pitti> smspillaz: they are in http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-common/tree/macros2/gnome-compiler-flags.m4
[15:53] <smspillaz> you used to be able to use either cmake or autoconf
[15:54] <smspillaz> desrt: I believe a lot of vodka was behind that decision
[15:54] <pitti> mmm vodka
[15:54] <desrt> smspillaz: that's how i feel about most of compiz :)
[15:54] <smspillaz> I know a few former developers were borderline alcoholics
[15:55] <smspillaz> desrt: well, its helped and hindered in places
[15:55] <smspillaz> desrt: I think a large part of the reason why compiz got complicated fast was because it wanted to be the one window manager to rule them all
[15:55] <smspillaz> a noble ambition, yet one that is basically impossible
[15:56] <desrt> indeed
[15:56] <smspillaz> things would be much better though if we just had one window manager
[15:56] <smspillaz> hence the reason why I'm not going to "port" it to be a wayland compositor
[15:59] <desrt> we do only have one window manager
[15:59] <desrt> (and its various forks)
[15:59] <smspillaz> desrt: when I said "we" I included everyone who develops on top of X11
[15:59] <smspillaz> not just gnome :)
[16:00] <desrt> okay.  one good window manager, then? :)
[16:00] <smspillaz> desrt: though, if I were to just include gnome, then I would think that the fact that you have people using libmutter is an achievement
[16:00] <smspillaz> desrt: well, I think the kwin and xmonad people would disagree :)
[16:00] <desrt> meh.
[16:01] <desrt> x is a dangerous and scary place
[16:01] <desrt> and i only know of one window manager that was written by havoc pennington and owen taylor :p
[16:01] <smspillaz> I never understood why the desktop scene is much more heavily fragmented than everywhere else in linux
[16:01] <desrt> ?!
[16:02] <desrt> you mean like the one unified webserver that we all use?
[16:02] <desrt> or how everyone agrees on scripting languages, shells and editors?
[16:02] <smspillaz> well, we all use the same kernel
[16:02] <desrt> yes... everyone using linux is using the same kernel
[16:02] <desrt> ...except those who aren't (android)
[16:02] <smspillaz> isn't android much closer to mainline these days ?
[16:03] <desrt> if you don't define yourself directly into that conclusion, however, you notice the various BSDs and solaris pretty quickly, though
[16:03] <smspillaz> of course
[16:03] <smspillaz> I guess what I meant was
[16:04] <smspillaz> what frustrates me the most about of the linux ecosystem is that when fragmentation occurrs, it often results in duplication of effort on disproportionate scales
[16:04] <desrt> the free software mantra: "anything worth doing is worth doing twice"
[16:04] <smspillaz> exactly that
[16:04] <smspillaz> I hate that
[16:04] <desrt> if ever there is only one of something it's because it's such a shitty job
[16:04] <desrt> like samba :)
[16:04] <desrt> i mean... thank god it exists...
[16:04] <desrt> but i'm sure glad i didn't have to write it :p
[16:05] <smspillaz> I think the entire fact that that we have to have specifications for window managers pretty much indicates how broken the entire process is
[16:05] <smspillaz> because usually, the specification means "the implementation has to do X"
[16:05] <desrt> i'll say again
[16:05] <desrt> 11:01 < desrt> x is a dangerous and scary place
[16:06] <smspillaz> desrt: by "x" you are referring to X11 right ?
[16:06] <desrt> yes
[16:06] <smspillaz> *sigh* yeah
[16:06] <desrt> i think you'd agree that writing a window manager is a non-trivial affair :)
[16:06] <smspillaz> yes, I'd agree
[16:06] <desrt> particularly one that supports modern notions of (for example) focus stealing prevention
[16:06] <smspillaz> ditto reparenting
[16:06] <smspillaz> ditto compositing that isn't slow
[16:07] <smspillaz> ditto damage handling
[16:07] <smspillaz> etc etc
[16:08] <smspillaz> what I'd really like to see is one window manager which handles all of the client <-> WM stuff and then a means to inject policy into it
[16:08] <smspillaz> I think libmutter is awesome, because its part of the way there
[16:11] <desrt> damage isn't so bad
[16:11] <desrt> non-slow compositing needs only a few tricks
[16:11] <desrt> but ya... most of the other stuff sucks
[16:15] <smspillaz> desrt: don't forget stacking ;-)
[16:15] <desrt> i consider that part of focus-stealing prevention
[16:16] <desrt> although they're two very different parts of the same beast, admittedly
[16:16] <smspillaz> very different
[16:16] <desrt> one is you deciding what to do and telling X
[16:16] <desrt> the other is you trying to wrap your brain around the insanity that results from that (and any other random events that may occur at the same time)
[16:16] <smspillaz> desrt: and override redirect windows
[16:16] <desrt> those are boring :)
[16:17] <smspillaz> the bane of my existence
[16:17] <desrt> well
[16:17] <desrt> they're boring for a window manager
[16:17] <desrt> interesting for a compositor
[16:17] <desrt> and confusing for a windowmanager/compositor
[16:17] <smspillaz> and infuriating for a maintainer
[16:18] <smspillaz> desrt: btw, damage tracking becomes a lot more fun once you implement support for GLX_EXT_buffer_age
[16:18] <smspillaz> "fun"
[16:19] <desrt> fair enough
[16:19] <desrt> i never tried to mix GL with damage
[16:19]  * desrt always XRendered
[16:19] <desrt> (and usually just via cairo, much less)
[16:20] <smspillaz> desrt: well, the main problem at least is that if you draw outside the damage region, you die
[16:21] <desrt> neat
[16:21] <desrt> in classical systems you obviously get to be as sloppy as you want
[16:21] <smspillaz> yep
[17:47] <notgary> When's there going to be a Raring PPA for the Canonical Qt5 Edgers team? Will we have to wait until April?
[18:06] <Laney> happy weekend!
[18:28] <bcurtiswx> chrisccoulson, are there any known issues right now with firefox 18 and the adobe flash plugin ?
[18:29] <ogra_> yeah, it still doesnt work on arm
[18:29] <ogra_> :P
[18:29] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, lol, seems to crash on me, i used the flashplugin-installed but i also have icedtea-7-plugin installed. Is it possible they conflict ?
[18:30] <ogra_> shouldnt, no
[18:30] <ogra_> flash and java are pretty separate i would think
[18:30] <ogra_> at least as browser plugins
[18:32] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, right. Thanks
[18:33] <ogra_> does it stop crashing if you remove flash ?
[18:35] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, ill try that. is it as simple as apt-get remove the flashplugin=installer or will i have to find the files and delete them ?
[18:35] <ogra_> i'd try apt-get purge flashplugin-installer
[18:40] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, OK it doesn't see the plugin now
[18:41] <ogra_> and did it top crashing ?
[18:41] <bcurtiswx> yup, no crash
[18:41] <bcurtiswx> reinstalling
[18:41] <ogra_> *stop
[18:42] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, well no crash, YAY, but now after installed firefox doesn't see the plugin..
[18:43] <ogra_> did you restart the browser ?
[18:43] <ogra_> i think thats needed
[18:43] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, yup i did
[18:43] <ogra_> weird
[18:46] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, no flashplugin .so file in .mozilla/extensions
[18:46] <bcurtiswx> that the right place to look?
[18:46] <ogra_> hmm, let me check ... i need to find an intel machine first
[18:47]  * ogra_ is surrounded by arm only 
[18:47] <ogra_> there should be an alternative set in /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins/
[18:48] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, yes, flashplugin-alternative.so -> /etc/alternatives/mozilla-flashplugin
[18:49] <ogra_> and that should point to /usr/lib/flashplugin-installer/libflashplayer.so
[18:50] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, correct
[18:51] <ogra_> hmm, then it should just work, strange
[18:52] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, the file install_plugin in there, gives me an error of cp: cannot stat ‘’: No such file or directory
[18:52] <bcurtiswx> if i try ot run it
[18:52] <bcurtiswx> to*
[18:53] <ogra_> hmm, i never touched flashplugin-installer before, afaik it pulls the tarball from adobe and unpacks it ...
[18:54] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, http://paste.ubuntu.com/1496516/
[18:54] <bcurtiswx> small file
[18:55] <bcurtiswx> seems it looks for an argument to be specified upon calling it, don't know why it's there, seems odd
[18:56] <bcurtiswx> that argument seems to be the tarball
[18:56] <ogra_> yes, seems you can also use it manually to just install your own tarball if you want
[18:57] <ogra_> so i guess the wget that actually downloads it is in the preinst script of flashplugin-installer or so
[18:58] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, i agree. I'll look into it more. thx for your time
[18:58] <ogra_> np :)
[19:16] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, well i'll be it's a diff plugin, looking to open a pdf. is there an evince plugin or will i have to trudge through acroread ?
[19:16] <ogra_> evince is the default
[19:43] <bcurtiswx> ogra_, any chance you'd add https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evince-list/2012-June/msg00012.html to ubuntu repos ?
[19:45] <ogra_> thats probably a better question for one from the desktop team
[19:46] <bcurtiswx> anyone then, ^^
[19:47] <ogra_> (you could file a whishlist bug ;) and assign to the desktop team)
[19:53] <jbicha> bcurtiswx: I don't think we're that interested in including Evince 2 in Ubuntu
[19:54] <bcurtiswx> jbicha, u know why not ?
[19:54] <jbicha> because we have Evince 3
[19:54] <jbicha> and Firefox now has its own pdf plugin (which admittedly still needs work)
[19:54] <bcurtiswx> jbicha, you confused me there, so they didn't make the plugin for evince 3 im guessing then
[19:55] <bcurtiswx> what is the pdf plugin then ?
[19:55] <jbicha> right, Firefox is GTK2, current Evince is GTK3
[19:57] <jbicha> pdf.js, I believe it's enabled in Firefox 18 on Ubuntu
[20:00] <jbicha> bcurtiswx: here's a dated comment but it's an interesting idea https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=633501#c4
[20:00] <ubot2> Gnome bug 633501 in general "Bookshelf home screen" [Enhancement,New]
[20:02] <bcurtiswx> jbicha. so if i'm trying to view a bank statement for example, and it's an online PDF form, which the bank says they require adobe reader, should the native PDF in firefox be able to read it, or could it possibly only allow adobe reader?
[20:04] <jbicha> beats me, Evince works for most forms but I've not used pdf.js much yet
[20:04] <micahg> jbicha: if the evince plugin uses plugin-container, it should be able to use gtk3
[20:04] <bcurtiswx> jbicha, OK thx
[20:05] <micahg> jbicha: actually, nevermind...
[21:35] <notgary> Is anybody home?
[21:35] <robru> notgary, I'll be around for a while yet
[21:36] <notgary> I was wondering ...
[21:36] <robru> uh oh ;-)
[21:36] <notgary> Since there's a mentorship program for MOTU, and I've seen talking of reviving the mentorship program on the bug squads mailing list, is there any sort of mentoring program for the Desktop?
[21:37] <notgary> i.e. The stuff the the desktop team do to look after the desktop CD
[21:37] <notgary> I know a lot of it is along the same lines - packaging, bug triage, etc - but the packages are all different
[21:38] <notgary> so I was wondering, if a community member wanted to get deeply involved with the Desktop team
[21:38] <notgary> what should they do?
[21:38] <notgary> That's all, nothing big ::P
[21:38] <robru> notgary, well, in my case, the mentorship program was "Get hired by canonical; have jasoncwarner assign a couple desktoppers to get me up to speed on things"
[21:39] <notgary> What kind of experience did you have before getting hired? Did you work on Ubuntu before, or was a lot of it new to you?
[21:39] <robru> notgary, but generally the desktop team is quite friendly; we may not have formal membership, but if somebody was trying to learn, we are happy to answer questions.
[21:39] <robru> notgary, I had experience with open source upstreams only, I had zero experience with ubuntu.
[21:40] <robru> notgary, errr, meant to say "may not have formal mentorship", not membership
[21:41] <notgary> Is there any sort of one stop shop for the list of things the the desktop team need to get done right now, that someone could just go in and pick things from to get started?
[21:42] <robru> notgary, yes, that list definitely exists. let me see if I can remember where we keep it...
[21:42] <robru> notgary, http://people.canonical.com/~platform/desktop/versions.html here you go. this is our auto-generated list of packages that need to get updated.
[21:42] <robru> (there's a legend at the bottom of the page explaining what the colors mean)
[21:44] <robru> notgary, so basically ubuntu wiki has instructions on how to do packaging, pick a package and see about updating the package to the latest upstream ;-)
[21:45] <notgary> Do we always try to update it in Debian first and then sync Ubuntu with that?
[21:45] <robru> notgary, well yes, syncing with debian is always ideal. but debian is still in freeze so we don't wait around for them
[21:46] <robru> (debian has been in freeze for the entire time that canonical has employed me thus far... :-/
[21:46] <notgary> Fair enough :P
[21:47] <notgary> When the Debian package gets updated and the next sync happens, is there any problem with the Ubuntu package being newer than the Debian version, or is that handled gracefully
[21:47] <notgary> ?
[21:56] <robru> notgary, I honestly don't know what happens when ubuntu's package is newer. ideally we should make some effort to push it to debian, but I'm not sure how much that actually happens really.
[21:58] <notgary> robru, Fair enough. I guess the etiquette is just to click the "Open Bug" link on the right and assign the bug to myself?
[21:58] <robru> notgary, yeah, if you want to tackle a package, please open a bug and assign it to yourself so that nobody else duplicates the effort.
[21:59] <robru> notgary, and if you run into trouble, don't hesitate to ask people. I'm sure mterry would be delighted to help you ;-)
[22:00] <mterry> notgary, if our version is newer, it requires a manual merge, tracked by merges.ubuntu.com
[22:03] <notgary> robru, mterry, thanks both for your help. I really appreciate it. I'm sure I'll be back soon enough with more questions.
[22:03] <notgary> Anyway, bye for now
[22:03] <notgary> o/
[22:03] <robru> notgary, you're welcome
[23:48] <Guest9336> hello
[23:50] <Guest9336> I like Ubuntu
[23:51] <Guest9336> but I like more Ubuntu with gnome