[04:13] hi =) [04:14] thanks :) [04:14] less action than #ubuntu [04:17] yeah haha [04:18] it's probably just lots of people idling and waiting for more info [04:18] Canonical are keeping the details pretty close to their chest [04:19] i only have a Windows 7 machine at present, and all my mobiles are Android. Any ideas on how I can start developing Ubuntu apps? Haven't gone through the doco yet [04:19] oh and have VMWare image of Ubuntu, that might help [04:50] well [04:50] I haven't looked into it yet myself [04:50] but as I understand it, any native Ubuntu app should run on the phone version. That's kind of one of the selling points. [04:50] But I heard mention of QML [04:51] so look up QML [04:51] Yeah, isnt the point of a universal platform that the apps are universal [04:51] further, it would be a good idea to install Ubuntu inside a virtual machine like virtual box (or probably VMWare), yeah [04:51] Ryan45: Ja. [04:51] but universal apps aren't necessarily fast apps [04:52] yeah, i agree [04:52] I played around in the tablet porting world and I can tell you its going to be ugly [04:52] unless you know exactly what works and what doesnt [04:53] Still, Ubuntu is just so much less locked-down than Android, this is going to be great [04:53] it's not the OS that's the problem [04:53] its the hardware in the mobile world [04:53] in terms of power or compatibility? [04:53] unless, this is going to be exclusive for a certain number of handsets [04:54] interms of SOC makers don't like to release code [04:54] Yeah, proprietary drivers [04:54] because by the time anyone is porting they already moved onto thier next best thing [04:54] we are on quadcore mobile now? [04:54] what was single core? 11 months ago? [04:54] Canonical is working that out. That's not something app evelopers need worry about. [04:54] my Note 2 is 1.6 GHz with 4 cores and 2 gig of RAM [04:55] the phones of 2013 and 2014 will be way more powerful [04:56] All Canonical needs to do is secure an OEM or ODM that is dedicated to doing an Ubuntu phone. Then, it doesn't matter about the other phones and ODMs. As long as Canonical pulls off one good phone. [04:56] The linux culture is to use the devices of last year [04:56] not the device of next year [04:56] the best starting point for developing apps for Ubuntu is here: http://developer.ubuntu.com/ [04:56] people love linux because you can throw it on an old machine and breath new life into it [04:56] That's not really true of smartphones, though. [04:57] in 2014 how many old smart phones are you going to have laying around? [04:57] I will probably have 3 [04:57] I think there is a HUGE crowd of people that would buy a phone that, when docked, becomes a normal desktop OS [04:57] yes, but has anyone mentioned that being included in Ubuntu Phone OS? [04:57] Yes, I am not denying that, but there is a bigger market of people sitting on 1 or 2 year old devices [04:57] jo-erlend: yes [04:57] jo, yes, that was in the video [04:58] that's the selling point, really [04:58] when? [04:58] Sigh. Don't make me go find it. [04:58] its in the faq too [04:58] That has been mentioned with respects to Ubuntu for Android, but I haven't heard anything about it for Ubuntu Phone. [04:59] http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems [04:59] see the table [04:59] high-end smartphones will have desktop convergence [04:59] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone#Ubuntu_Phone_FAQ [04:59] Will desktop applications such as LibreOffice run on it?When the phone is docked to a screen you should be able to use the full desktop applications. When they are on the small screen they would need a QML display which might be part of the same application. [05:01] nice. [05:02] Definitely. In this context, Ubuntu for Android is more like Wubi: it's there for people who don't want to fully commit, but it's not the main goal [05:02] Assuming they actually follow through on Ubuntu for Android [05:02] I suspect this might have surplanted it [05:03] GNexus is OMAP, if they did this project for Mediatek devices like http://www.bluproducts.com/pro-detail/vivo43 [05:03] then the chinese companies could come in and drop a bunch of devices [05:04] Yeah I don't expect the big players to pull this off. It'll be a currently non-name Chinese company probably [05:04] That's kind of the beauty of it: if Samsung, et al don't consider this worthy of their time, there are other players who are desperately trying to break into smartphones who will [05:05] With substandard displays and no patents [05:05] lol [05:05] huh? Why wouldn't Samsung consider this worthy? They spend resources on Tizen. [05:05] Samsung wants control [05:05] They might not consider Ubuntu to give them that [05:06] why do you say that? [05:06] After all, they're trying to replace Android with Tizen [05:06] for precisely that reason [05:06] I seriously doubt that. [05:06] One undertstated potential is rapid localization. [05:06] If they go after the chinese companies making phones for africa [05:06] but Samsung has no incentive not to sell phones with a variety of operating systems. [05:06] ubuntu phone could be localized with ease for any new market [05:07] Brazil, Mexico, India, Africa [05:07] I'd very much like Huawei to get into it. They have some nice stuff up their sleeves and they really have something to prove. [05:07] I suppose Ubuntu will be even more open source than Android, so regardless of Canonical's wishes, Samsung could fork it and have full control if they wished. [05:07] I imagine ZTE will be interested as well [05:08] And LG and HTC probably want to one-up Samsung [05:08] "even more"... Well, Android is primarily Apache licensed. Whether that's more or less open than GPL, is a matter of perspective. [05:09] Nokia is going to be looking for a dancing partner as soon as Microsoft divorces them. [05:09] There are proprietary parts of Android. [05:09] which wont be long. [05:09] Microsoft will probably watch Nokia crash and burn and then purchase them. After all, the guy running Nokia now is a Microsoft plant. [05:10] nokia is probably nice tax write off :) [05:10] I had a Nokia N900 which I really loved until the USB port was broken. I had guarantee, so I sent it in. They replaced it with an N8. I love the hardware, but the OS doesn't cut it. I wonder if Nokia would be "allowed" to offer both WP and UP. They would certainly be an attractive hardware manufacturer. [05:10] My N900 is sitting next to my mouse at the moment. [05:10] N900 was a wonderful phone. But Nokia never pushed it. They never marketted it. [05:11] yes, for some strange reason. [05:11] Nokia is a much more socially responsible company than Samsung or Apple, so it is sad to see them die. [05:11] but they've made nice phones all along. Their problem has been the OS. [05:12] I still don't like the idea of trying to get a peice of the existing pie. [05:12] why? [05:12] Need to sell to people who dont like pie :) [05:12] I don't really think Canonical are trying to get a piece of the pie. I think they're trying to bake a better pie. [05:13] reinvent the wheel [05:13] lol [05:13] in any case, computing is not a mature market by any means. [05:13] Firefox Phone, Ubuntu Phone, up soon, Angry Birds Phone [05:13] Canonical are trying to elimninate device categories. Conflate laptops, tablets, desktops into a single device. Your smartphone is a phone normally, but dock it and it's a desktop. Or put it inside a laptopdock case and it's a laptop. Or a tablet dock case and it is a tablet. [05:13] you just do the sling back motion to launch apps [05:14] So you grab your phone out of the dock in the monring, head to work, chuck it in the dock. [05:14] yeah, my dad asked me that yesterday, if any of these phones could just have a monitor hooked up [05:14] Or head to the university computer lab and place it in one of the 40 docks provided, with monitors and mice and keyboards attached. [05:15] My Note 2 already has a dock with HDMI, and UDB. But without a desktop OS I see no point in using a mouse and keyboard on it on a big screen [05:15] *USB [05:15] also, I think the biggest app craze will subside. People probably won't continue to buy fart-apps forever. I'd predict that people will want fewer, but higher quality apps. The number of available apps is not really all that important, I think. [05:15] I really wan't to make a scifi movie with a giant space ship and they come under attack and dude pulls out his smartphone and controls the whole thing. [05:15] no point in having some big battle center with all these buttons and screens [05:16] that highly depends on what you're doing. [05:16] good ubuntu phone commercial :) [05:16] flips back and plays a word on scrabble [05:17] I have a few pretty wild ideas for controlling the desktop, but I think maybe they're slightly too radical yet. :) [05:17] So have either of you installed the QML toolkit yet? [05:17] no, I'm a Vala/GTK kinda guy, so I haven't spent too much time using Qt in a long time. [05:18] QML is QT, then? [05:18] Qt Markup Language, I think? [05:18] isn't it a bit odd to choose QT whne Unity is based off Gnome which is GTK? [05:18] maybe QML was already mature [05:18] markup/meta, wikipedia says. [05:19] Unity is not based on Gnome really. It's based on Compiz. [05:19] much of the Ubuntu desktop is still based on Gnome though. But the shell itself is not. [05:19] I'm developing an Android app for spaced repetition of frequency dictionaries for various languages. So I may work on it concurrently in QML [05:19] ok [05:20] they're using some toolkit of their own; NUX. I don't know much about it. [05:20] who's using NUX? Canonical for Compiz? [05:20] Canonical. [05:20] for Unity, that is. [05:20] ok [05:21] they've used Qt for other stuff. Unity 2D is written in Qt, for instance. I think U1 client is too. [05:22] but to me, the most important work they've done, is to unify stuff. It's not too long ago that using Qt apps in Ubuntu felt really strange. And I really love the HTML stuff and the rest of the infrastructure. [05:22] I like Unity. I don't understand all the fuss about it. It's not like they're preventing people from using Gnome or KDE. [05:23] I'm going to feel a bit iffy about HTML applications. [05:23] in what sense? security? [05:24] You don't have to code in HTML5 [05:24] I think they're highly useful in some cases. It's nowhere near anything like a competitor to native apps though. That'll take another decade, I'll wager. [05:24] Yeah. [05:25] but I _really_ wish they could make Vala/GTK first class. I understand the reasoning though. I don't really like C++ all that much and C is probably not all that comfortable in combination with Qt, though I might be wrong about that. [05:26] Yeah, I'm not a fan of C++ [05:27] I'm OK with C and Java. Just not C++. Odd. [05:27] then you too would probably love Vala :) [05:27] =( [05:27] Qt is C++? [05:27] jup. [05:28] Aw. [05:28] but I don't know much about Qt, so don't trust me on any of that stuff. [05:32] but these are exciting times. If anything would make me want to jump into QML and change some habits, it's this. [05:35] yeah. I think all the tech punditry proclaiming this concept dead on arrive because the smartphone market is too crowded are funny [05:35] most of them probably don't even know what Linux is [05:35] or about the huge culture associated with it and with FOSS and with Ubuntu [05:38] Trans [05:38] That is the counter point as well [05:38] Not really [05:38] a bunch of people are going to have legacy devices [05:38] the pundits are shortsighted for not understanding Linux [05:38] because the linux culture is legacy devices [05:38] but ordinary people don't care about Linux [05:38] they care about being able to have a powerful smartphone with a desktop OS (when docked) [05:39] Your point was Ubuntu has a big following including by extension [05:39] which i agree with [05:39] The Linux culture isn't legacy devices. That's a linux subculture. [05:39] You are going to argue that OEM linux is successful? [05:40] Are you talking about Android? [05:40] no [05:40] Which other OEM Linux, then? MeeGo? Tizen? [05:41] I might have stated it wrong, i mean linux installed by manufacturers [05:41] yes, I had it write Origional Equipment Manufacturer installed Linux [05:41] write LOL [05:41] right [05:41] Ubuntu for phones will be successfull from two different angles: drawing over a large number of existing Linux users, and drawing over a large number of non-Linux users who love the concept of a smartphone that turns into a desktop when docked. For most people Ubuntu 12.10 is not that different to Windows, especially on a phone. [05:42] You are going to argue that OEM linux is successful? <-- what does that have to do with Linux being a "legacy culture"? [05:42] my argument is that Linux is thought of as a solution to extending the life out of devices [05:42] Only by SOME people. [05:42] or custom built [05:43] I see Linux as the cutting-edge compared to Windows. I have modern machines. I don't install Linux to give life to old devices (much). [05:43] some people think that anchovies are good pizzas too, but that doesn't mean that anchovy pizzas are all there is. [05:43] it's a long time since I had any issues with off-the-shelf hardware. [05:43] good *on pizzas. [05:43] You installed Linux on a windows device more then lieky [05:43] even if it was the most recent [05:43] so? [05:44] Not my desktop. And the computer I am about to buy is from System76 [05:44] it comes with Ubuntu, not Windows [05:44] If your buddy asks if his old laptop will run linux you say, yes and it will run great [05:44] How does this relate to phones? [05:44] I don't consider anything a "windows device", btw. I think that kind of thinking is nasty. I think about hardware and software. [05:44] ok, it was a summary [05:44] so my point is, the average linux fan is going to take his phone and say, wow ubuntu looks great [05:45] I think he's just saying that a lot of current linux users who have current Android devices, might seriously think about flashing UbuntuPhone onto their current device, instead of throwing it away, the next time they can upgrade due to plan cycle. Sure. [05:45] and look for an image to install [05:45] it is true that I've had to purchase licenses to Windows that I never intended to use, and that's nasty too, but that neither affects hardware nor my Ubuntu software. I just pretend there's no OS installed. [05:45] chriadam|away: sure, and those who can't will happily buy an Ubuntu phone [05:46] Chriad: and the problem I see is that Ubuntu Phone is going to be available for a limited number of devices [05:46] Ryan45, right. And there will be images to install, though the target hardware probably doesn't exist yet. [05:46] Ryan45's logic is fallacious because he's implying that a) Ubuntu phones won't attract non-Linux users, and b) Linux users won't buy Ubuntu phones upon discovering that in many cases it can't be installed on their old device [05:46] Trans, i am not arguing either of those points [05:46] Ryan45, if they use Android drivers, then you should be able to run it on most Android devices, no? [05:46] Well then I am at a loss :p [05:46] let's all take a moment to thank Stskeeps for that ;-D [05:47] (8:35:11 PM) Transhumanist: yeah. I think all the tech punditry proclaiming this concept dead on arrive because the smartphone market is too crowded are funny [05:47] (8:35:18 PM) Transhumanist: most of them probably don't even know what Linux is [05:47] (8:35:31 PM) Transhumanist: or about the huge culture associated with it and with FOSS and with Ubuntu [05:47] Your third statement argues they are wrong because of ubuntu's culture [05:47] and i am saying they are right on that point because of ubuntu's culture [05:47] Yeah, why? [05:48] Because I dont want to buy a new phone [05:48] Ryan45, then just download it and install it yourself? [05:48] There will be a LOT of Ubuntu fans who will buy an Ubuntu phone. I'm not saying all, I'm not even saying 50%. [05:48] if i have one of the few phones it will run on [05:48] But Ubuntu is used by tens of millions of people. [05:48] Ryan45, where have you found the list of Android phones that won't be able to run Ubuntu? [05:48] Ubuntu ROMs will come out. [05:49] Jo-er: i am basing my position of the fact they are working with OMAP [05:49] because nvidia and samsung keep thier stuff closed [05:49] jo-erlend: well, it's simply not safe to assume that it'll be able to run on every piece of hardware. hardware adaptions are a _lot_ of work. [05:50] chriadam|away, sure. What I'm saying, is it's way too early to make claims that Ubuntu won't run on existing hardware. [05:50] Ryan45: but aren't you implying that if Ubuntu fans discover that, hypothetically, they can't install it on their old phone, then they won't buy an Ubuntu phone? [05:50] It just doesn't make sense to me [05:50] Some will, some won't [05:50] And many won't even care about their old phones [05:51] and as I keep telling people; most hardware is still crap. So is software. Computing is not a mature market. There's plenty of time to get in, as long as you do it properly. People will want to replace their phones sooner or later anyway. [05:51] yup. here endeth the argument, I think. [05:51] for the record, I am in favour of being able to reduce waste and install it on older phones. But the hardware requirements won't allow that. It needs fast processors, multiple processors, and high RAM [05:51] no, it just needs open drivers :) [05:52] Canonical disagrees with you. [05:52] Examine this table: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems [05:52] sure, I share those views. But the acceptable level of hardware hasn't been reached in my opinion. Not on tablets and not on phones. Certainly on desktops and laptops though, but that's a completely different segment. [05:52] for the dockable version, Canonical has certain hardware requirements [05:53] lol [05:53] do you know how many 1Ghz Cortex A9's there are [05:53] A large number. [05:53] ARM licenses that stuff out like its going out of style. [05:53] But not all of them are developer friendlty [05:54] this isn't the pc world where it's like 4 legit possibilities for cpu archetecture [05:54] talking about ARM, I think their big.LITTLE sounds rather perfectly suited for this exact use. [05:54] man, my spelling is terrible in pidgin with no spellcheck. [05:54] mine is terrible with no sleep :> [05:55] what part of the world do you guys hail from? [05:55] Perhaps the 2014 release frame is because they know something about the business I do not :) [05:55] Norway. [05:55] that future ARM forks are all going to be dev friendly [05:55] Alaska [05:55] Ryan45: yeah, they know that more powerful phones will be out by then :p [05:55] Trans, you keep saying that but you dont talk about whats inside them [05:55] :) [05:55] And they know that's how long it'll take to get this going with an ODM [05:56] It'll still be ARM [05:56] My experience comes from the android tablet porting world [05:56] But a bunch of chip manufacturers have been opening up a bit. And Canonical's plan seems to be to work with one to get their drivers working on Ubuntu, not necessarily to open those drivers [05:57] I don't pretend that the hardware manufacturers will suddenly open up, although there's a lot of commercial pressure for that to start happening [05:57] Mm. Intel have a pretty big potential in the mobile space, by 2014 I'm expecting really, really low TDP from their mobile chips. [05:57] I think the most important thing is to get stuff working on one reference model. [05:57] Yes [05:57] Perhaps there will be a stabalization on that front [05:58] BTW, to make it clear, I am not against this whole thing, i love it :) [05:58] chriadam|away, it'll be interesting to see. [05:58] But I think it's more in the disruption then i assimilation [05:58] Ignoring the ROM market. Ignoring Ubuntu users who want to install it on their old phone. There WILL be a huge number of existing Ubuntu users, and non-Ubuntu first-adopters who will buy the first Ubuntu phone that comes out. [05:59] I'd love to see a Ubuntu Phone Market where there are 5-10 phones available for me to buy unlocked for $300 [05:59] Same. But that's further off I suspect [05:59] Trans: are these going to be at Verizon? [05:59] or at ATT? [05:59] I suppose that depends on Canonical's business skills? [05:59] or is this going to be a European only concept like Nokia [06:00] I'd very, _very_ much like to see Nokia get on board. For a large number of reasons. [06:00] As would I. They have a really good environmental track record. [06:00] The US model has a way of just destroying good ideas. [06:00] That's the US. [06:01] I'm in the US :) [06:01] It won't stop you from buying a phone up front, though. [06:01] Nexus 4 is probably going to be my first [06:01] Even if Verizon and ATT don't have a version to sell on plans [06:01] first smartphone? [06:01] I am not the average consumer [06:01] no, I still use the milestone, here the droid [06:02] first vzw android phone [06:02] But why do you assume the average consumer needs to buy the Ubuntu phone for it to be successful initially? [06:02] Because cost is associated with scale :) [06:02] The best models of Android phones only sell like 20 to 50 million units. [06:03] I understand economies of scale. [06:03] I read a great nokia quote [06:03] "if we had a phone that sold as few as the iphone it would be considered a complete failure" this is from before Apple had an ecosystem around the phone [06:03] But for their first unit, selling a few million copies is fine. Mark might even subsidise this yet further with his millions of dollars. [06:03] Ubuntu has no need for profit... Oh, I'm sure Mark wants to sell tens of millions of handsets, at a nice margin if possible, but I don't think that's the primary aim, to be honest. [06:04] I think it's important to keep in mind that Microsoft and Apple were considered successful even in the 80s and 90s, though that was a very small market. [06:04] The point I was just making is I hate nvidia reference platform built devices :) [06:04] haha [06:04] percentages doesn't pay the rent. I think Ubuntu can be quite successful even with a fairly low percentage. [06:05] They don't support even 6 month old devices [06:05] BTW, I haven't fiddled with Cyanogen mod or anything [06:05] but dual-booting is possible on Android phones, right? [06:05] Because I can see a future where people dual-boot Ubuntu and Android :p [06:05] to ubuntu? [06:05] to anything [06:06] I can imagine a company saying "yes, you can bring your own device – as long as it's Ubuntu so we're sure everything works properly". :) [06:06] e.g. between stock and Cynogen mod [06:06] It's not dualbooting, it's more like running an emulator [06:06] Look at the info on Ubuntu for Android [06:06] Ubuntu for Android isn't emulation. It's sharing the same kernel. It's not dual-booting. [06:06] But in todays market, can you dual-boot multiple ROMs? [06:07] if you've unlocked your phone? [06:07] yeah, I am an idiotsavant with out the savant when it comes to explaining [06:07] no [06:07] haha [06:07] odd [06:07] It's the way android sets up its memory [06:07] you can certainly keep writing over [06:08] and using the old data with the new system files [06:08] but it gets ugly after a few times of doing that because that idea is REALLY stupid [06:09] You can't... partition or something? [06:09] Or direct the second OS to boot from external SD? [06:09] honestly, it seems stupid that people have reinvented the wheel, DIFFERENTLY, for phones. [06:09] They're just computers smeg it! [06:09] on some phones, you can. Not on all. [06:10] the mobile market is really messy in a lot of ways. So was PC in the beginning though. [06:12] (jo secretly supporting my point) [06:12] they're not "just computers". they have their own set of problems to solve, and outcomes to achieve. people innovate, and come up with their own solutions and their own implementations. that's just natural. [06:13] yes and that's what happened in the early PC era as well. Then it settled. I hope the same thing will happen in the mobile space. Because it seems obvious that people should be able to switch operating systems after purchasing the hardware. [06:14] right, that may eventually happen [06:14] Little different global chip making capability [06:14] I'm hopeful. We're at the very beginning. [06:14] but at the pace of technological advancement, I'd be surprised if we still had "handsets" as we know them today, in 20 years time. wet-wired implants are more likely ;-) [06:14] ugh [06:15] people are against cross breeding carrots even though they will probably starve if they dont [06:15] they're not "just computers". they have their own set of problems to solve, and outcomes to achieve. people innovate, and come up with their own solutions and their own implementations. that's just natural. [06:15] this is true more because of where phones have come from than because of what people are trying to achieve with them today [06:16] chriadam|away, I don't think people are going to replace form factors. I think we'll add new ones. For instance, no tablet or handheld will ever make me want to replace a good chair, desktop, big screens and keyboard. After all, technology doesn't alter my biology. Well, not yet, anyway :> [06:16] People today are trying to use them as computer. It makes sense to ditch the phone paradigm and TREAT them as first-class citizens in the computing world [06:16] ARM's licensing has done wonder and been the bane of a lot of inovation though :) [06:16] puts the invoation in the hands of large manufacturers [06:16] jo-erlend: yet, in my opinion, was the operative word in that sentence. I'm probably wrong, but we'll see. Either way, interesting times ahead ;-) [06:16] jo-erlend: what about a phone that docks into a small station connected to a monitor and keyboard and mouse on top of your desk with the comfy chair [06:16] if everyone had to use one of like 3 sets of chips we would see all kinds of crazy device uses, but there are like 100's of locked up cpu's now [06:17] is that not a desktop then? [06:17] * jo-erlend thinks having choice of operating systems will be a big selling point for hardware manufacturers in the future. [06:17] i dont want to dock anything :) [06:17] I want to just come into range [06:17] haha [06:17] I love that idea! [06:18] Transhumanist, right. When hardware is capable of that – which is happening very soon – that'll certainly be interesting and appealing. It doesn't change the form factor though. [06:18] Well it does change it! No more towers. No more buying multiple devices. [06:18] Ryan45, I do that now. Love BlueProximity :> [06:18] It's a huge change :p [06:19] and when I leave the house, my webcam automatically turns into a surveillance camera. That's nice too. [06:19] we are actually going to soon run into a surplus of computing power [06:19] if one of the books on the bookcase in your study gets belligerent, you'll _know about it_ ;-D jokes [06:19] Ryan45: pfft. no such thing. [06:20] Ryan45, heh... To me, that's happened a long time ago wrt stationary computing. [06:20] You know what I love the most about smartphones replacing PC's? [06:20] The fact that they consume 1/100th the number of watts [06:20] i read on the internet that transhumanist REALLY loves the environment :) [06:20] chriadam|away, it was a fun weekend project more than a security thing though :) [06:20] Well it saves on electricity bills too. [06:21] jo-erlend: hehe, yeah, I did the same thing back when I was in uni. [06:21] but Ryan: how is reduced electricity consumption of that magnitude not an amazing thing? [06:21] :) I'm in Alaska, our whole economy is based on wasteful energy use aka oil [06:22] And I am from Australia. We're simiklar with coal and gas. [06:22] It's not a good thing. [06:22] Or something to be proud of haha [06:22] I havent had a desktop in years [06:22] I only use laptops [06:22] Ryan45, and I'm from Norway :> [06:22] we _are_ proud of it, I think :) [06:22] Laptops use much less power. [06:22] I've got this 6-core AMD desktop which I am going to retire for no other reason than it accounts for like half my electricity bill. [06:23] Yeah I'm switching to a System76 lappie [06:23] Transhumanist, you're going to retire a computer and replace it with a new one ... for the sake of the environment? [06:23] LOL [06:24] Think that through more carefully jo-erlend [06:24] I need it for other reasons. I'm going to switch to using it as my main PC too, to reduce electricity consumption. [06:24] It's like when they tear down old buildings to build new environmentally responisbile ones. [06:25] And the construction equipment does more carbon production then the building will save in its life time [06:25] The savings CAN be worth it, but most people don't to the maths to figure out whether it is [06:25] Usually the maths is too difficult. If everyone wasn't tearing down the old buildings, maybe HastingsDearing would be producing less heavy machinery, and maybe the steel mills would produce less steel, and maybe the mining industry would do less mining, and maybe... [06:26] environment is very important. And low power consumption is good, not only because of the consumption, but also because lower consumption means longer life, because of less heat which requires fans and other moveable stuff. [06:26] mainly it's good because it means my study doesn't get quite so damn hot during summer. [06:26] The laptop I am getting has an average consumption of 30 watts (rough guess). My desktop PC has an average consumption of 300 watts (rough guess). I don't know how much electricity it cost to make each device, or how many pollutants were produced, but but it doesn't seem completely ridicuklously that at some point it will be an environmental gain to have switched to this laptop [06:27] chriadam|away, which is a bad thing at winter in Norway. I'd rather warm my study using a computer than an oven. [06:27] ... unless that point is longer than the lifetime of your laptop.. [06:27] indeed [06:27] But I'm buying it so I can do development work away from home, especially at uni. [06:28] jo-erlend: hehe. I used to own a dell that would have solved all of your central-heating problems [06:28] Trans, how much of those chemicals in the computer came from china :) [06:28] where they dont care about pollution output in mining [06:28] or in transportation [06:28] or in production [06:28] chriadam|away, I currently own a beast of a machine. I should actually ask the neighbours to chip in, cause I'm probably lowering their electrical bills :> [06:29] hehe [06:30] whenever I buy something new, I try to buy something that'll last. I didn't really realize that it'd make my box sound like a Harley Davidson. [06:30] As an Alaskan I almost exclusivly talk online with people from Europe and Australia :) Due to timezones. [06:30] but I don't think I'll ever have to upgrade my stationary again and that's a good thing. [06:31] You have a point. This is why I really valued Nokia's products - they handled the lifecycle environmental cost of their products really well. But as I said, there are multiple reasons for buying this laptop: specifically the ease of doing development work. If I could buy a good Nokia laptop, I would. But I can't. [06:32] But since I am buying the laptop for reason X, then it makes sense to retire my desktop and use this laptop because it consumes perhaps 1/10th the electricity. And back to smartphones absorbing other device categories: it'll be amazing when that happens because of the global drop in energy use from domestic computing [06:32] I didn't know that. I like Nokia for other reasons. [06:33] Transhumanist, heh, sure. I apologize for making that joke. It wasn't an attack in any way, and I wasn't referring to you when I spoke about my stationary. [06:33] As an Aussie I usually miss Europeans because they're mostly asleep or at work [06:33]