[04:13] <Transhumanist> hi =)
[04:14] <shanbuntu_> thanks :)
[04:14] <shanbuntu_> less action than #ubuntu
[04:17] <Transhumanist> yeah haha
[04:18] <Transhumanist> it's probably just lots of people idling and waiting for more info
[04:18] <Transhumanist> Canonical are keeping the details pretty close to their chest
[04:19] <shanbuntu_> i only have a Windows 7 machine at present, and all my mobiles are Android.  Any ideas on how I can start developing Ubuntu apps?  Haven't gone through the doco yet
[04:19] <shanbuntu_> oh and have VMWare image of Ubuntu, that might help
[04:50] <Transhumanist> well
[04:50] <Transhumanist> I haven't looked into it yet myself
[04:50] <Transhumanist> but as I understand it, any native Ubuntu app should run on the phone version. That's kind of one of the selling points.
[04:50] <Transhumanist> But I heard mention of QML
[04:51] <Transhumanist> so look up QML
[04:51] <Ryan45> Yeah, isnt the point of a universal platform that the apps are universal
[04:51] <Transhumanist> further, it would be a good idea to install Ubuntu inside a virtual machine like virtual box (or probably VMWare), yeah
[04:51] <Transhumanist> Ryan45: Ja.
[04:51] <Transhumanist> but universal apps aren't necessarily fast apps
[04:52] <Ryan45> yeah, i agree
[04:52] <Ryan45> I played around in the tablet porting world and I can tell you its going to be ugly
[04:52] <Ryan45> unless you know exactly what works and what doesnt
[04:53] <Transhumanist> Still, Ubuntu is just so much less locked-down than Android, this is going to be great
[04:53] <Ryan45> it's not the OS that's the problem
[04:53] <Ryan45> its the hardware in the mobile world
[04:53] <Transhumanist> in terms of power or compatibility?
[04:53] <Ryan45> unless, this is going to be exclusive for a certain number of handsets
[04:54] <Ryan45> interms of SOC makers don't like to release code
[04:54] <Transhumanist> Yeah, proprietary drivers
[04:54] <Ryan45> because by the time anyone is porting they already moved onto thier next best thing
[04:54] <Ryan45> we are on quadcore mobile now?
[04:54] <Ryan45> what was single core? 11 months ago?
[04:54] <Transhumanist> Canonical is working that out. That's not something app evelopers need worry about.
[04:54] <Transhumanist> my Note 2 is 1.6 GHz with 4 cores and 2 gig of RAM
[04:55] <Transhumanist> the phones of 2013 and 2014 will be way more powerful
[04:56] <Transhumanist> All Canonical needs to do is secure an OEM or ODM that is dedicated to doing an Ubuntu phone. Then, it doesn't matter about the other phones and ODMs. As long as Canonical pulls off one good phone.
[04:56] <Ryan45> The linux culture is to use the devices of last year
[04:56] <Ryan45> not the device of next year
[04:56] <jo-erlend> the best starting point for developing apps for Ubuntu is here: http://developer.ubuntu.com/
[04:56] <Ryan45> people love linux because you can throw it on an old machine and breath new life into it
[04:56] <Transhumanist> That's not really true of smartphones, though.
[04:57] <Ryan45> in 2014 how many old smart phones are you going to have laying around?
[04:57] <Ryan45> I will probably have 3
[04:57] <Transhumanist> I think there is a HUGE crowd of people that would buy a phone that, when docked, becomes a normal desktop OS
[04:57] <jo-erlend> yes, but has anyone mentioned that being included in Ubuntu Phone OS?
[04:57] <Ryan45> Yes, I am not denying that, but there is a bigger market of people sitting on 1 or 2 year old devices
[04:57] <Transhumanist> jo-erlend: yes
[04:57] <Ryan45> jo, yes, that was in the video
[04:58] <Transhumanist> that's the selling point, really
[04:58] <jo-erlend> when?
[04:58] <Transhumanist> Sigh. Don't make me go find it.
[04:58] <Ryan45> its in the faq too
[04:58] <jo-erlend> That has been mentioned with respects to Ubuntu for Android, but I haven't heard anything about it for Ubuntu Phone.
[04:59] <Transhumanist> http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems
[04:59] <Transhumanist> see the table
[04:59] <Transhumanist> high-end smartphones will have desktop convergence
[04:59] <Ryan45> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone#Ubuntu_Phone_FAQ
[04:59] <Ryan45> Will desktop applications such as LibreOffice run on it?When the phone is docked to a screen you should be able to use the full desktop applications. When they are on the small screen they would need a QML display which might be part of the same application.
[05:01] <jo-erlend> nice.
[05:02] <Transhumanist> Definitely. In this context, Ubuntu for Android is more like Wubi: it's there for people who don't want to fully commit, but it's not the main goal
[05:02] <Transhumanist> Assuming they actually follow through on Ubuntu for Android
[05:02] <Transhumanist> I suspect this might have surplanted it
[05:03] <Ryan45> GNexus is OMAP, if they did this project for Mediatek devices like http://www.bluproducts.com/pro-detail/vivo43
[05:03] <Ryan45> then the chinese companies could come in and drop a bunch of devices
[05:04] <Transhumanist> Yeah I don't expect the big players to pull this off. It'll be a currently non-name Chinese company probably
[05:04] <Transhumanist> That's kind of the beauty of it: if Samsung, et al don't consider this worthy of their time, there are other players who are desperately trying to break into smartphones who will
[05:05] <Ryan45> With substandard displays and no patents
[05:05] <Ryan45> lol
[05:05] <jo-erlend> huh? Why wouldn't Samsung consider this worthy? They spend resources on Tizen.
[05:05] <Transhumanist> Samsung wants control
[05:05] <Transhumanist> They might not consider Ubuntu to give them that
[05:06] <jo-erlend> why do you say that?
[05:06] <Transhumanist> After all, they're trying to replace Android with Tizen
[05:06] <Transhumanist> for precisely that reason
[05:06] <jo-erlend> I seriously doubt that.
[05:06] <Ryan45> One undertstated potential is rapid localization.
[05:06] <Ryan45> If they go after the chinese companies making phones for africa
[05:06] <jo-erlend> but Samsung has no incentive not to sell phones with a variety of operating systems.
[05:06] <Ryan45> ubuntu phone could be localized with ease for any new market
[05:07] <Ryan45> Brazil, Mexico, India, Africa
[05:07] <jo-erlend> I'd very much like Huawei to get into it. They have some nice stuff up their sleeves and they really have something to prove.
[05:07] <Transhumanist> I suppose Ubuntu will be even more open source than Android, so regardless of Canonical's wishes, Samsung could fork it and have full control if they wished.
[05:07] <Transhumanist> I imagine ZTE will be interested as well
[05:08] <Transhumanist> And LG and HTC probably want to one-up Samsung
[05:08] <jo-erlend> "even more"... Well, Android is primarily Apache licensed. Whether that's more or less open than GPL, is a matter of perspective.
[05:09] <Ryan45> Nokia is going to be looking for a dancing partner as soon as Microsoft divorces them.
[05:09] <Transhumanist> There are proprietary parts of Android.
[05:09] <Ryan45> which wont be long.
[05:09] <Transhumanist> Microsoft will probably watch Nokia crash and burn and then purchase them. After all, the guy running Nokia now is a Microsoft plant.
[05:10] <Ryan45> nokia is probably nice tax write off :)
[05:10] <jo-erlend> I had a Nokia N900 which I really loved until the USB port was broken. I had guarantee, so I sent it in. They replaced it with an N8. I love the hardware, but the OS doesn't cut it. I wonder if Nokia would be "allowed" to offer both WP and UP. They would certainly be an attractive hardware manufacturer.
[05:10] <Transhumanist> My N900 is sitting next to my mouse at the moment.
[05:10] <Transhumanist> N900 was a wonderful phone. But Nokia never pushed it. They never marketted it.
[05:11] <jo-erlend> yes, for some strange reason.
[05:11] <Transhumanist> Nokia is a much more socially responsible company than Samsung or Apple, so it is sad to see them die.
[05:11] <jo-erlend> but they've made nice phones all along. Their problem has been the OS.
[05:12] <Ryan45> I still don't like the idea of trying to get a peice of the existing pie.
[05:12] <jo-erlend> why?
[05:12] <Ryan45> Need to sell to people who dont like pie :)
[05:12] <Transhumanist> I don't really think Canonical are trying to get a piece of the pie. I think they're trying to bake a better pie.
[05:13] <Ryan45> reinvent the wheel
[05:13] <Ryan45> lol
[05:13] <jo-erlend> in any case, computing is not a mature market by any means.
[05:13] <Ryan45> Firefox Phone, Ubuntu Phone, up soon, Angry Birds Phone
[05:13] <Transhumanist> Canonical are trying to elimninate device categories. Conflate laptops, tablets, desktops into a single device. Your smartphone is a phone normally, but dock it and it's a desktop. Or put it inside a laptopdock case and it's a laptop. Or a tablet dock case and it is a tablet.
[05:13] <Ryan45> you just do the sling back motion to launch apps
[05:14] <Transhumanist> So you grab your phone out of the dock in the monring, head to work, chuck it in the dock.
[05:14] <Ryan45> yeah, my dad asked me that yesterday, if any of these phones could just have a monitor hooked up
[05:14] <Transhumanist> Or head to the university computer lab and place it in one of the 40 docks provided, with monitors and mice and keyboards attached.
[05:15] <Transhumanist> My Note 2 already has a dock with HDMI, and UDB. But without a desktop OS I see no point in using a mouse and keyboard on it on a big screen
[05:15] <Transhumanist> *USB
[05:15] <jo-erlend> also, I think the biggest app craze will subside. People probably won't continue to buy fart-apps forever. I'd predict that people will want fewer, but higher quality apps. The number of available apps is not really all that important, I think.
[05:15] <Ryan45> I really wan't to make a scifi movie with a giant space ship and they come under attack and dude pulls out his smartphone and controls the whole thing.
[05:15] <Ryan45> no point in having some big battle center with all these buttons and screens
[05:16] <jo-erlend> that highly depends on what you're doing.
[05:16] <Ryan45> good ubuntu phone commercial :)
[05:16] <Ryan45> flips back and plays a word on scrabble
[05:17] <jo-erlend> I have a few pretty wild ideas for controlling the desktop, but I think maybe they're slightly too radical yet. :)
[05:17] <Transhumanist> So have either of you installed the QML toolkit yet?
[05:17] <jo-erlend> no, I'm a Vala/GTK kinda guy, so I haven't spent too much time using Qt in a long time.
[05:18] <Transhumanist> QML is QT, then?
[05:18] <jo-erlend> Qt Markup Language, I think?
[05:18] <Transhumanist> isn't it a bit odd to choose QT whne Unity is based off Gnome which is GTK?
[05:18] <Transhumanist> maybe QML was already mature
[05:18] <jo-erlend> markup/meta, wikipedia says.
[05:19] <jo-erlend> Unity is not based on Gnome really. It's based on Compiz.
[05:19] <jo-erlend> much of the Ubuntu desktop is still based on Gnome though. But the shell itself is not.
[05:19] <Transhumanist> I'm developing an Android app for spaced repetition of frequency dictionaries for various languages. So I may work on it concurrently in QML
[05:19] <Transhumanist> ok
[05:20] <jo-erlend> they're using some toolkit of their own; NUX. I don't know much about it.
[05:20] <Transhumanist> who's using NUX? Canonical for Compiz?
[05:20] <jo-erlend> Canonical.
[05:20] <jo-erlend> for Unity, that is.
[05:20] <Transhumanist> ok
[05:21] <jo-erlend> they've used Qt for other stuff. Unity 2D is written in Qt, for instance. I think U1 client is too.
[05:22] <jo-erlend> but to me, the most important work they've done, is to unify stuff. It's not too long ago that using Qt apps in Ubuntu felt really strange. And I really love the HTML stuff and the rest of the infrastructure.
[05:22] <Transhumanist> I like Unity. I don't understand all the fuss about it. It's not like they're preventing people from using Gnome or KDE.
[05:23] <jalcine> I'm going to feel a bit iffy about HTML applications.
[05:23] <Transhumanist> in what sense? security?
[05:24] <Transhumanist> You don't have to code in HTML5
[05:24] <jo-erlend> I think they're highly useful in some cases. It's nowhere near anything like a competitor to native apps though. That'll take another decade, I'll wager.
[05:24] <Transhumanist> Yeah.
[05:25] <jo-erlend> but I _really_ wish they could make Vala/GTK first class. I understand the reasoning though. I don't really like C++ all that much and C is probably not all that comfortable in combination with Qt, though I might be wrong about that.
[05:26] <Transhumanist> Yeah, I'm not a fan of C++
[05:27] <Transhumanist> I'm OK with C and Java. Just not C++. Odd.
[05:27] <jo-erlend> then you too would probably love Vala :)
[05:27] <Transhumanist> =(
[05:27] <Transhumanist> Qt is C++?
[05:27] <jo-erlend> jup.
[05:28] <Transhumanist> Aw.
[05:28] <jo-erlend> but I don't know much about Qt, so don't trust me on any of that stuff.
[05:32] <jo-erlend> but these are exciting times. If anything would make me want to jump into QML and change some habits, it's this.
[05:35] <Transhumanist> yeah. I think all the tech punditry proclaiming this concept dead on arrive because the smartphone market is too crowded are funny
[05:35] <Transhumanist> most of them probably don't even know what Linux is
[05:35] <Transhumanist> or about the huge culture associated with it and with FOSS and with Ubuntu
[05:38] <Ryan45> Trans
[05:38] <Ryan45> That is the counter point as well
[05:38] <Transhumanist> Not really
[05:38] <Ryan45> a bunch of people are going to have legacy devices
[05:38] <Transhumanist> the pundits are shortsighted for not understanding Linux
[05:38] <Ryan45> because the linux culture is legacy devices
[05:38] <Transhumanist> but ordinary people don't care about Linux
[05:38] <Transhumanist> they care about being able to have a powerful smartphone with a desktop OS (when docked)
[05:39] <Ryan45> Your point was Ubuntu has a big following including by extension
[05:39] <Ryan45> which i agree with
[05:39] <Transhumanist> The Linux culture isn't legacy devices. That's a linux subculture.
[05:39] <Ryan45> You are going to argue that OEM linux is successful?
[05:40] <Transhumanist> Are you talking about Android?
[05:40] <Ryan45> no
[05:40] <Transhumanist> Which other OEM Linux, then? MeeGo? Tizen?
[05:41] <Ryan45> I might have stated it wrong, i mean linux installed by manufacturers
[05:41] <Ryan45> yes, I had it write Origional Equipment Manufacturer installed Linux
[05:41] <Ryan45> write LOL
[05:41] <Ryan45> right
[05:41] <Transhumanist> Ubuntu for phones will be successfull from two different angles: drawing over a large number of existing Linux users, and drawing over a large number of non-Linux users who love the concept of a smartphone that turns into a desktop when docked. For most people Ubuntu 12.10 is not that different to Windows, especially on a phone.
 You are going to argue that OEM linux is successful? <-- what does that have to do with Linux being a "legacy culture"?
[05:42] <Ryan45> my argument is that Linux is thought of as a solution to extending the life out of devices
[05:42] <Transhumanist> Only by SOME people.
[05:42] <Ryan45> or custom built
[05:43] <Transhumanist> I see Linux as the cutting-edge compared to Windows. I have modern machines. I don't install Linux to give life to old devices (much).
[05:43] <chriadam|away> some people think that anchovies are good pizzas too, but that doesn't mean that anchovy pizzas are all there is.
[05:43] <jo-erlend> it's a long time since I had any issues with off-the-shelf hardware.
[05:43] <chriadam|away> good *on pizzas.
[05:43] <Ryan45> You installed Linux on a windows device more then lieky
[05:43] <Ryan45> even if it was the most recent
[05:43] <jo-erlend> so?
[05:44] <Transhumanist> Not my desktop. And the computer I am about to buy is from System76
[05:44] <Transhumanist> it comes with Ubuntu, not Windows
[05:44] <Ryan45> If your buddy asks if his old laptop will run linux you say, yes and it will run great
[05:44] <Transhumanist> How does this relate to phones?
[05:44] <jo-erlend> I don't consider anything a "windows device", btw. I think that kind of thinking is nasty. I think about hardware and software.
[05:44] <Ryan45> ok, it was a summary
[05:44] <Ryan45> so my point is, the average linux fan is going to take his phone and say, wow ubuntu looks great
[05:45] <chriadam|away> I think he's just saying that a lot of current linux users who have current Android devices, might seriously think about flashing UbuntuPhone onto their current device, instead of throwing it away, the next time they can upgrade due to plan cycle.  Sure.
[05:45] <Ryan45> and look for an image to install
[05:45] <jo-erlend> it is true that I've had to purchase licenses to Windows that I never intended to use, and that's nasty too, but that neither affects hardware nor my Ubuntu software. I just pretend there's no OS installed.
[05:45] <Transhumanist> chriadam|away: sure, and those who can't will happily buy an Ubuntu phone
[05:46] <Ryan45> Chriad: and the problem I see is that Ubuntu Phone is going to be available for a limited number of devices
[05:46] <jo-erlend> Ryan45, right. And there will be images to install, though the target hardware probably doesn't exist yet.
[05:46] <Transhumanist> Ryan45's logic is fallacious because he's implying that a) Ubuntu phones won't attract non-Linux users, and b) Linux users won't buy Ubuntu phones upon discovering that in many cases it can't be installed on their old device
[05:46] <Ryan45> Trans, i am not arguing either of those points
[05:46] <jo-erlend> Ryan45, if they use Android drivers, then you should be able to run it on most Android devices, no?
[05:46] <Transhumanist> Well then I am at a loss :p
[05:46] <chriadam|away> let's all take a moment to thank Stskeeps for that ;-D
[05:47] <Ryan45> (8:35:11 PM) Transhumanist: yeah. I think all the tech punditry proclaiming this concept dead on arrive because the smartphone market is too crowded are funny
[05:47] <Ryan45> (8:35:18 PM) Transhumanist: most of them probably don't even know what Linux is
[05:47] <Ryan45> (8:35:31 PM) Transhumanist: or about the huge culture associated with it and with FOSS and with Ubuntu
[05:47] <Ryan45> Your third statement argues they are wrong because of ubuntu's culture
[05:47] <Ryan45> and i am saying they are right on that point because of ubuntu's culture
[05:47] <Transhumanist> Yeah, why?
[05:48] <Ryan45> Because I dont want to buy a new phone
[05:48] <jo-erlend> Ryan45, then just download it and install it yourself?
[05:48] <Transhumanist> There will be a LOT of Ubuntu fans who will buy an Ubuntu phone. I'm not saying all, I'm not even saying 50%.
[05:48] <Ryan45> if i have one of the few phones it will run on
[05:48] <Transhumanist> But Ubuntu is used by tens of millions of people.
[05:48] <jo-erlend> Ryan45, where have you found the list of Android phones that won't be able to run Ubuntu?
[05:48] <Transhumanist> Ubuntu ROMs will come out.
[05:49] <Ryan45> Jo-er: i am basing my position of the fact they are working with OMAP
[05:49] <Ryan45> because nvidia and samsung keep thier stuff closed
[05:49] <chriadam|away> jo-erlend: well, it's simply not safe to assume that it'll be able to run on every piece of hardware.  hardware adaptions are a _lot_ of work.
[05:50] <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, sure. What I'm saying, is it's way too early to make claims that Ubuntu won't run on existing hardware.
[05:50] <Transhumanist> Ryan45: but aren't you implying that if Ubuntu fans discover that, hypothetically, they can't install it on their old phone, then they won't buy an Ubuntu phone?
[05:50] <Transhumanist> It just doesn't make sense to me
[05:50] <Transhumanist> Some will, some won't
[05:50] <Transhumanist> And many won't even care about their old phones
[05:51] <jo-erlend> and as I keep telling people; most hardware is still crap. So is software. Computing is not a mature market. There's plenty of time to get in, as long as you do it properly. People will want to replace their phones sooner or later anyway.
[05:51] <chriadam|away> yup.  here endeth the argument, I think.
[05:51] <Transhumanist> for the record, I am in favour of being able to reduce waste and install it on older phones. But the hardware requirements won't allow that. It needs fast processors, multiple processors, and high RAM
[05:51] <Ryan45> no, it just needs open drivers :)
[05:52] <Transhumanist> Canonical disagrees with you.
[05:52] <Transhumanist> Examine this table: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/operators-and-oems
[05:52] <jo-erlend> sure, I share those views. But the acceptable level of hardware hasn't been reached in my opinion. Not on tablets and not on phones. Certainly on desktops and laptops though, but that's a completely different segment.
[05:52] <Transhumanist> for the dockable version, Canonical has certain hardware requirements
[05:53] <Ryan45> lol
[05:53] <Ryan45> do you know how many 1Ghz Cortex A9's there are
[05:53] <Transhumanist> A large number.
[05:53] <Ryan45> ARM licenses that stuff out like its going out of style.
[05:53] <Ryan45> But not all of them are developer friendlty
[05:54] <Ryan45> this isn't the pc world where it's like 4 legit possibilities for cpu archetecture
[05:54] <jo-erlend> talking about ARM, I think their big.LITTLE sounds rather perfectly suited for this exact use.
[05:54] <Ryan45> man, my spelling is terrible in pidgin with no spellcheck.
[05:54] <jo-erlend> mine is terrible with no sleep :>
[05:55] <Transhumanist> what part of the world do you guys hail from?
[05:55] <Ryan45> Perhaps the 2014 release frame is because they know something about the business I do not :)
[05:55] <jo-erlend> Norway.
[05:55] <Ryan45> that future ARM forks are all going to be dev friendly
[05:55] <Ryan45> Alaska
[05:55] <Transhumanist> Ryan45: yeah, they know that more powerful phones will be out by then :p
[05:55] <Ryan45> Trans, you keep saying that but you dont talk about whats inside them
[05:55] <Ryan45> :)
[05:55] <Transhumanist> And they know that's how long it'll take to get this going with an ODM
[05:56] <Transhumanist> It'll still be ARM
[05:56] <Ryan45> My experience comes from the android tablet porting world
[05:56] <Transhumanist> But a bunch of chip manufacturers have been opening up a bit. And Canonical's plan seems to be to work with one to get their drivers working on Ubuntu, not necessarily to open those drivers
[05:57] <Transhumanist> I don't pretend that the hardware manufacturers will suddenly open up, although there's a lot of commercial pressure for that to start happening
[05:57] <chriadam|away> Mm.  Intel have a pretty big potential in the mobile space, by 2014 I'm expecting really, really low TDP from their mobile chips.
[05:57] <jo-erlend> I think the most important thing is to get stuff working on one reference model.
[05:57] <Transhumanist> Yes
[05:57] <Ryan45> Perhaps there will be a stabalization on that front
[05:58] <Ryan45> BTW, to make it clear, I am not against this whole thing, i love it :)
[05:58] <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, it'll be interesting to see.
[05:58] <Ryan45> But I think it's more in the disruption then i assimilation
[05:58] <Transhumanist> Ignoring the ROM market. Ignoring Ubuntu users who want to install it on their old phone. There WILL be a huge number of existing Ubuntu users, and non-Ubuntu first-adopters who will buy the first Ubuntu phone that comes out.
[05:59] <Ryan45> I'd love to see a Ubuntu Phone Market where there are 5-10 phones available for me to buy unlocked for $300
[05:59] <Transhumanist> Same. But that's further off I suspect
[05:59] <Ryan45> Trans: are these going to be at Verizon?
[05:59] <Ryan45> or at ATT?
[05:59] <Transhumanist> I suppose that depends on Canonical's business skills?
[05:59] <Ryan45> or is this going to be a European only concept like Nokia
[06:00] <jo-erlend> I'd very, _very_ much like to see Nokia get on board. For a large number of reasons.
[06:00] <Transhumanist> As would I. They have a really good environmental track record.
[06:00] <Ryan45> The US model has a way of just destroying good ideas.
[06:00] <Transhumanist> That's the US.
[06:01] <Ryan45> I'm in the US :)
[06:01] <Transhumanist> It won't stop you from buying a phone up front, though.
[06:01] <Ryan45> Nexus 4 is probably going to be my first
[06:01] <Transhumanist> Even if Verizon and ATT don't have a version to sell on plans
[06:01] <Transhumanist> first smartphone?
[06:01] <Ryan45> I am not the average consumer
[06:01] <Ryan45> no, I still use the milestone, here the droid
[06:02] <Ryan45> first vzw android phone
[06:02] <Transhumanist> But why do you assume the average consumer needs to buy the Ubuntu phone for it to be successful initially?
[06:02] <Ryan45> Because cost is associated with scale :)
[06:02] <Transhumanist> The best models of Android phones only sell like 20 to 50 million units.
[06:03] <Transhumanist> I understand economies of scale.
[06:03] <Ryan45> I read a great nokia quote
[06:03] <Ryan45> "if we had a phone that sold as few as the iphone it would be considered a complete failure" this is from before Apple had an ecosystem around the phone
[06:03] <Transhumanist> But for their first unit, selling a few million copies is fine. Mark might even subsidise this yet further with his millions of dollars.
[06:03] <chriadam|away> Ubuntu has no need for profit...  Oh, I'm sure Mark wants to sell tens of millions of handsets, at a nice margin if possible, but I don't think that's the primary aim, to be honest.
[06:04] <jo-erlend> I think it's important to keep in mind that Microsoft and Apple were considered successful even in the 80s and 90s, though that was a very small market.
[06:04] <Ryan45> The point I was just making is I hate nvidia reference platform built devices :)
[06:04] <Transhumanist> haha
[06:04] <jo-erlend> percentages doesn't pay the rent. I think Ubuntu can be quite successful even with a fairly low percentage.
[06:05] <Ryan45> They don't support even 6 month old devices
[06:05] <Transhumanist> BTW, I haven't fiddled with Cyanogen mod or anything
[06:05] <Transhumanist> but dual-booting is possible on Android phones, right?
[06:05] <Transhumanist> Because I can see a future where people dual-boot Ubuntu and Android :p
[06:05] <Ryan45> to ubuntu?
[06:05] <Transhumanist> to anything
[06:06] <jo-erlend> I can imagine a company saying "yes, you can bring your own device – as long as it's Ubuntu so we're sure everything works properly". :)
[06:06] <Transhumanist> e.g. between stock and Cynogen mod
[06:06] <Ryan45> It's not dualbooting, it's more like running an emulator
[06:06] <Ryan45> Look at the info on Ubuntu for Android
[06:06] <Transhumanist> Ubuntu for Android isn't emulation. It's sharing the same kernel. It's not dual-booting.
[06:06] <Transhumanist> But in todays market, can you dual-boot multiple ROMs?
[06:07] <Transhumanist> if you've unlocked your phone?
[06:07] <Ryan45> yeah, I am an idiotsavant with out the savant when it comes to explaining
[06:07] <Ryan45> no
[06:07] <Transhumanist> haha
[06:07] <Transhumanist> odd
[06:07] <Ryan45> It's the way android sets up its memory
[06:07] <Ryan45> you can certainly keep writing over
[06:08] <Ryan45> and using the old data with the new system files
[06:08] <Ryan45> but it gets ugly after a few times of doing that because that idea is REALLY stupid
[06:09] <Transhumanist> You can't... partition or something?
[06:09] <Transhumanist> Or direct the second OS to boot from external SD?
[06:09] <Transhumanist> honestly, it seems stupid that people have reinvented the wheel, DIFFERENTLY, for phones.
[06:09] <Transhumanist> They're just computers smeg it!
[06:09] <jo-erlend> on some phones, you can. Not on all.
[06:10] <jo-erlend> the mobile market is really messy in a lot of ways. So was PC in the beginning though.
[06:12] <Ryan45> (jo secretly supporting my point)
[06:12] <chriadam|away> they're not "just computers".  they have their own set of problems to solve, and outcomes to achieve.  people innovate, and come up with their own solutions and their own implementations.  that's just natural.
[06:13] <jo-erlend> yes and that's what happened in the early PC era as well. Then it settled. I hope the same thing will happen in the mobile space. Because it seems obvious that people should be able to switch operating systems after purchasing the hardware.
[06:14] <chriadam|away> right, that may eventually happen
[06:14] <Ryan45> Little different global chip making capability
[06:14] <jo-erlend> I'm hopeful. We're at the very beginning.
[06:14] <chriadam|away> but at the pace of technological advancement, I'd be surprised if we still had "handsets" as we know them today, in 20 years time.  wet-wired implants are more likely ;-)
[06:14] <Ryan45> ugh
[06:15] <Ryan45> people are against cross breeding carrots even though they will probably starve if they dont
 they're not "just computers".  they have their own set of problems to solve, and outcomes to achieve.  people innovate, and come up with their own solutions and their own implementations.  that's just natural.
[06:15] <Transhumanist> this is true more because of where phones have come from than because of what people are trying to achieve with them today
[06:16] <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, I don't think people are going to replace form factors. I think we'll add new ones. For instance, no tablet or handheld will ever make me want to replace a good chair, desktop, big screens and keyboard. After all, technology doesn't alter my biology. Well, not yet, anyway :>
[06:16] <Transhumanist> People today are trying to use them as computer. It makes sense to ditch the phone paradigm and TREAT them as first-class citizens in the computing world
[06:16] <Ryan45> ARM's licensing has done wonder and been the bane of a lot of inovation though :)
[06:16] <Ryan45> puts the invoation in the hands of large manufacturers
[06:16] <chriadam|away> jo-erlend: yet, in my opinion, was the operative word in that sentence.  I'm probably wrong, but we'll see.  Either way, interesting times ahead ;-)
[06:16] <Transhumanist> jo-erlend: what about a phone that docks into a small station connected to a monitor and keyboard and mouse on top of your desk with the comfy chair
[06:16] <Ryan45> if everyone had to use one of like 3 sets of chips we would see all kinds of crazy device uses, but there are like 100's of locked up cpu's now
[06:17] <Transhumanist> is that not a desktop then?
[06:17]  * jo-erlend thinks having choice of operating systems will be a big selling point for hardware manufacturers in the future. 
[06:17] <Ryan45> i dont want to dock anything :)
[06:17] <Ryan45> I want to just come into range
[06:17] <Transhumanist> haha
[06:17] <Transhumanist> I love that idea!
[06:18] <jo-erlend> Transhumanist, right. When hardware is capable of that – which is happening very soon – that'll certainly be interesting and appealing. It doesn't change the form factor though.
[06:18] <Transhumanist> Well it does change it! No more towers. No more buying multiple devices.
[06:18] <jo-erlend> Ryan45, I do that now. Love BlueProximity :>
[06:18] <Transhumanist> It's a huge change :p
[06:19] <jo-erlend> and when I leave the house, my webcam automatically turns into a surveillance camera. That's nice too.
[06:19] <Ryan45> we are actually going to soon run into a surplus of computing power
[06:19] <chriadam|away> if one of the books on the bookcase in your study gets belligerent, you'll _know about it_ ;-D  jokes
[06:19] <chriadam|away> Ryan45: pfft.  no such thing.
[06:20] <jo-erlend> Ryan45,  heh...  To me, that's happened a long time ago wrt stationary computing.
[06:20] <Transhumanist> You know what I love the most about smartphones replacing PC's?
[06:20] <Transhumanist> The fact that they consume 1/100th the number of watts
[06:20] <Ryan45> i read on the internet that transhumanist REALLY loves the environment :)
[06:20] <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, it was a fun weekend project more than a security thing though :)
[06:20] <Transhumanist> Well it saves on electricity bills too.
[06:21] <chriadam|away> jo-erlend: hehe, yeah, I did the same thing back when I was in uni.
[06:21] <Transhumanist> but Ryan: how is reduced electricity consumption of that magnitude not an amazing thing?
[06:21] <Ryan45> :) I'm in Alaska, our whole economy is based on wasteful energy use aka oil
[06:22] <Transhumanist> And I am from Australia. We're simiklar with coal and gas.
[06:22] <Transhumanist> It's not a good thing.
[06:22] <Transhumanist> Or something to be proud of haha
[06:22] <Ryan45> I havent had a desktop in years
[06:22] <Ryan45> I only use laptops
[06:22] <jo-erlend> Ryan45, and I'm from Norway :>
[06:22] <jo-erlend> we _are_ proud of it, I think :)
[06:22] <Ryan45> Laptops use much less power.
[06:22] <Transhumanist> I've got this 6-core AMD desktop which I am going to retire for no other reason than it accounts for like half my electricity bill.
[06:23] <Transhumanist> Yeah I'm switching to a System76 lappie
[06:23] <jo-erlend> Transhumanist, you're going to retire a computer and replace it with a new one ... for the sake of the environment?
[06:23] <Ryan45> LOL
[06:24] <Transhumanist> Think that through more carefully jo-erlend
[06:24] <Transhumanist> I need it for other reasons. I'm going to switch to using it as my main PC too, to reduce electricity consumption.
[06:24] <Ryan45> It's like when they tear down old buildings to build new environmentally responisbile ones.
[06:25] <Ryan45> And the construction equipment does more carbon production then the building will save in its life time
[06:25] <Transhumanist> The savings CAN be worth it, but most people don't to the maths to figure out whether it is
[06:25] <chriadam|away> Usually the maths is too difficult.  If everyone wasn't tearing down the old buildings, maybe HastingsDearing would be producing less heavy machinery, and maybe the steel mills would produce less steel, and maybe the mining industry would do less mining, and maybe...
[06:26] <jo-erlend> environment is very important. And low power consumption is good, not only because of the consumption, but also because lower consumption means longer life, because of less heat which requires fans and other moveable stuff.
[06:26] <chriadam|away> mainly it's good because it means my study doesn't get quite so damn hot during summer.
[06:26] <Transhumanist> The laptop I am getting has an average consumption of 30 watts (rough guess). My desktop PC has an average consumption of 300 watts (rough guess). I don't know how much electricity it cost to make each device, or how many pollutants were produced, but but it doesn't seem completely ridicuklously that at some point it will be an environmental gain to have switched to this laptop
[06:27] <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, which is a bad thing at winter in Norway. I'd rather warm my study using a computer than an oven.
[06:27] <chriadam|away> ... unless that point is longer than the lifetime of your laptop..
[06:27] <Transhumanist> indeed
[06:27] <Transhumanist> But I'm buying it so I can do development work away from home, especially at uni.
[06:28] <chriadam|away> jo-erlend: hehe.  I used to own a dell that would have solved all of your central-heating problems
[06:28] <Ryan45> Trans, how much of those chemicals in the computer came from china :)
[06:28] <Ryan45> where they dont care about pollution output in mining
[06:28] <Ryan45> or in transportation
[06:28] <Ryan45> or in production
[06:28] <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, I currently own a beast of a machine. I should actually ask the neighbours to chip in, cause I'm probably lowering their electrical bills :>
[06:29] <chriadam|away> hehe
[06:30] <jo-erlend> whenever I buy something new, I try to buy something that'll last. I didn't really realize that it'd make my box sound like a Harley Davidson.
[06:30] <Ryan45> As an Alaskan I almost exclusivly talk online with people from Europe and Australia :) Due to timezones.
[06:30] <jo-erlend> but I don't think I'll ever have to upgrade my stationary again and that's a good thing.
[06:31] <Transhumanist> You have a point. This is why I really valued Nokia's products - they handled the lifecycle environmental cost of their products really well. But as I said, there are multiple reasons for buying this laptop: specifically the ease of doing development work. If I could buy a good Nokia laptop, I would. But I can't.
[06:32] <Transhumanist> But since I am buying the laptop for reason X, then it makes sense to retire my desktop and use this laptop because it consumes perhaps 1/10th the electricity. And back to smartphones absorbing other device categories: it'll be amazing when that happens because of the global drop in energy use from domestic computing
[06:32] <jo-erlend> I didn't know that. I like Nokia for other reasons.
[06:33] <jo-erlend> Transhumanist, heh, sure. I apologize for making that joke. It wasn't an attack in any way, and I wasn't referring to you when I spoke about my stationary.
[06:33] <Transhumanist> As an Aussie I usually miss Europeans because they're mostly asleep or at work
[06:33] <Transhumanist> =(
[06:33] <Transhumanist> jo-erlend: oh, was responding to Ryan45
[06:33] <jo-erlend> hehe ok :)
[06:34] <jo-erlend> ah. He doesn't like tab completion much, I see. :>
[06:34] <Ryan45> nah, every letter costs electricity
[06:35] <Ryan45> plus I dont want to make someones computer beep and wake up thier signifigant other.
[06:35] <jo-erlend> Ryan45, I think you have a good point. People talk green, but when it comes down to decision making, I think it's better if green is a bonus. Longevity, aesthetics and simplicity is much more important, I think.
[06:36] <Transhumanist> I take issue with that because you make it sound like they're mutually exclusive
[06:36] <Transhumanist> ;)
[06:37] <chriadam|away> right.  I think the problem is that it's too complex for the average person to figure out, and it's too abstract or formless a threat to figure actively in most peoples' cognitive processes when making decisions.
[06:37] <jo-erlend> oh, quite the contrary. It's a matter of how you sell it. People like green and green is important. But I think it's better to say "It's really nice, the battery lasts for a long time – oh, and that also means it's green", than to say "it's green, and it's kinda useful too!" :)
[06:38] <jo-erlend> chriadam|away, right.
[06:38] <Transhumanist> jo-erlend: I see what you mean
[06:39] <Transhumanist> It's a matter of education, too though
[06:39] <Ryan45> OneUbuntuPhonePerChild is a way better program bTW :)
[06:39] <Transhumanist> lol
[06:39] <Transhumanist> that should be a thing.
[06:39] <jo-erlend> If you don't have to worry about the battery all the time, then that's good for you. You like that. As a bonus, it's good for the environment as well.
[06:41] <Ryan45> hey australian
[06:41] <Ryan45> who likes energy conservation
[06:41] <Ryan45> Do you like ice skating or hockey?
[06:42] <Transhumanist> I don't think my feet are designed for ice skating, but I love it anyway. I prefer skiing.
[06:43] <Ryan45> Ok, so have you heard of solar thermal absorption chilling?
[06:43] <jo-erlend> hehe
[06:43] <jo-erlend> he should, being an Australian.
[06:44] <jo-erlend> soaked leather bags filled with water was the primary way to keep the water cool when going walkabout, I seem to remember.
[06:44] <Ryan45> http://energy-concepts.com/thermochiller
[06:45] <Ryan45> They can drive the chiller needed for a skating rink off solar and I really want to build one in west texas, but australia would work as well.
[06:45] <Transhumanist> Oh, like setup a comercial ice rink run by one of these?
[06:46] <jo-erlend> are we still somewhat in touch with Ubuntu, or have we drifted completely off topic? :)
[06:47] <Transhumanist> Well... you're welcome to discuss something Ubuntu-related :D
[06:47] <Transhumanist> be back in a bit. Girlfriend is home.
[06:48] <jo-erlend> it's a good idea. I'm sure some people try to pay a little attention to the backlogs in order to catch unanswered questions. Makes it more difficult if we're talking too much about other thigns.
[06:48] <jo-erlend> things, even.
[06:48] <Ryan45> yeah
[06:48] <Ryan45> Unanswered questions, lol
[06:48] <Ryan45> like there are answers
[06:49] <jo-erlend> I've received good answers to all of my questions.
[06:50] <Ryan45> I apologize for bringing some debate to the conversation earlier :)
[06:51] <jo-erlend> don't. Enthusiasm is good. I get caught up too. I really do sometimes. :)
[06:53] <Transhumanist> Debate is good! I'm going to spend tonight installing their alpha QML development framework
[06:53] <jo-erlend> and I think green is an important aspect of UP. Not only because native code probably means less consumption, but also because a lot of people who would otherwise run a desktop 24/7 in addition to their phone, might reduce that to one device.
[06:54] <Ryan45> I would love to see them do a mediatek based demo
[06:55] <jo-erlend> I get the impression that there's still a lot of things to do before a detailed demo is called for.
[06:55] <Transhumanist> What's mediatek?
[06:56] <Transhumanist> just a device by MediaTek demoing Ubuntu Phone's features?
[06:56] <Ryan45> mediatek is the offbrand arm
[06:57] <Ryan45> A9
[07:41] <Transhumanist> http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/01/04/is-ubuntu-about-to-create-the-phone-and-pc-of-my-dreams/
[10:42] <donttrustem> Hi guys, I would like to test ubuntu phone on my nexus. Is there anywhere to download the code?
[10:45] <donttrustem> Anyone here?
[10:46] <k1l> no not yet.  its not to be expected until the CES
[10:46] <donttrustem> When is the CES
[10:47] <donttrustem> Bloody bots
[10:48] <k1l> its just starting if im right
[10:49] <donttrustem> But it has been demonstrated on the nexus
[10:50] <k1l> on a galaxy nexus, yes. but the code is not published right now
[10:51] <donttrustem> When will it be published... I would like to test it and develop
[10:53] <k1l> donttrustem: there is no exact date mentioned. so its expected after the CES but dont count the hours
[10:53] <netchip> are the sources for ubuntu for phones released?
[10:53] <donttrustem> Man there must be a version out there for developers ....
[10:54] <donttrustem> netchip: I found something on the xda forum
[10:54] <k1l> netchip: no, not so far
[10:55] <netchip> :|
[10:55] <donttrustem> http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1730546
[10:55] <netchip> also, why do they use Android kenrel?
[10:55] <donttrustem> Not sure if this will work
[10:56] <netchip> donttrustem, That isn't Ubuntu Phone they are developing ;)
[10:56] <k1l> donttrustem: that is not ubuntuphone
[10:56] <donttrustem> Ok
[10:56] <k1l> netchip: do they? i think they mentioned that they could use the android kernel because of the drivers
[10:57] <donttrustem> I think they need to release something soon otherwise it will lose momentum...  It needs to be out there.
[10:58] <k1l> donttrustem: its a dev stage which they want to show at the CES to the hardware manufactures to get them on board
[10:58] <k1l> donttrustem: its not ment fo end-users to use on their phone right now. so be patient
[10:58] <netchip> Yeah, well, I'm running CM on my SGS3, it's 60% open source, and the team is 3 men, and they open sourced that part, without any documentation, in _one_ year
[10:59] <netchip> So for a big company, it should take a week
[10:59] <donttrustem> Lol manufactures are users ... End user will determine the success
[10:59] <k1l> *sigh*
[11:00] <k1l> netchip: cm isnt only run by 3men at all.
[11:00] <netchip> k1l, The team who opensourced my phoine is
[11:00] <netchip> teamhacksung
[11:01] <donttrustem> If the code is not out there for devs to use and spread the word then it will die.  Ubuntu desktop started without manaufactures
[11:02] <k1l> donttrustem: that is not how the mobile business runs
[11:04] <donttrustem> We are not talking about phones anymore, it is now being pushed as a mini desktop when docked :)
[11:07] <donttrustem> Would you say that the nexus is a phone or a mini PC?  The market call them smartphones because they need to separate them as a unique device ...
[11:08] <donttrustem> But in reality they are mini computers
[11:11] <donttrustem> Anyway enough of the rant ... Will have to wait for the release
[11:11] <popey> morning all ☺
[11:13] <donttrustem> CES is this month ...  In fact on Tuesday
[11:16] <k1l> hi popey :)
[11:28] <k1l> an ipad user who is ranting about ubuntu not giving the code NAOW!!111 . ok i see
[11:38] <Preed> what code?
[11:39] <Preed> So the ubuntu phone is a device with ubuntu on it.. and ubuntu for android is the same ubuntu, but running on top/parallell to android on an android device?
[11:39] <k1l> the ubuntu-phone code
[11:40] <Preed> whats that code for?
[11:40] <lcabreza1> what country is this phone available ?
[11:40] <k1l> lcabreza1: not available yet
[11:40] <Preed> you mean the source code?
[11:40] <k1l> Preed: no, ubuntu for android/ubuntu is a desktop-unity
[11:41] <Preed> so the ubuntu phone cant dock and turn into a desktop?
[11:41] <k1l> Preed: yes source code. the user who left right after you joined complained before that there is no code released so far from ubuntu-phone
[11:42] <k1l> Preed: the ubuntu for android based on the motorola webtop hardware . the dev-device was the motorola atrix. i dont know what the actual stage is and if other phones will support it wihout that special hardware
[11:43] <Preed> But.. The ubuntu-phone wont be able to do that? only phones that ship with android+ubuntu for android?
[11:45] <k1l> Preed: i dont know if there is any special hardware needed. so if you put ubuntu-phone on your old smartphone i dont know if it will support the desktop mode
[11:46] <k1l> but that is all guessing. im not an involved dev and there is no code so far.
[11:48] <Preed> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=cpWHJDLsqTU#t=1249s
[11:48] <Preed> "If your hardware works with android, it will also work with ubuntu"
[11:49] <k1l> Preed: that doesnt include the desktop-dock-thingy, imho
[11:49] <Preed> True
[11:49] <k1l> it means that they  can use the android kernel and the android driver for the hardware components
[11:50] <Preed> But why would that need any special hardware? Just launch the desktop and clone the phone screen to the hdmi/mhl-out..
[11:51] <Preed> Might want dual ramdacs(?) to output a different/higher resolution to the hdmi out though..
[11:52] <Preed> I think the SGS4 will have 1080p resolution though so on that it wouldnt be neccessary
[11:52] <Preed> But 1280x720 is a bit low for a desktop
[11:54] <Preed> The pics of the ubuntu-phone here http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone is an SGS3, aside from no hardware home button, missing samsung logo, and those 3 little dots on the lower right side(speaker?)
[11:55] <k1l> no its not. its a galaxy nexus
[11:55] <Preed> oh, well, they look damn similar :D
[11:55] <Preed> no chrome edge on the nexus though
[11:56] <Preed> is the ubuntu phone going to be based on the nexus? bit low-end hardware? or maybe its just the same shell...
[12:01] <popey> Preed: no, we're just using the nexus for the demo
[12:04] <popey> k1l: the ubuntu for android demo was given on a couple of devices, the motorola was just the first
[12:04] <popey> we're not wedded to any particular phone
[12:04] <Transhumanist> I'd LOVE to run Ubuntu on my Galaxy Note 2
[12:04] <Transhumanist> it's perfect for it
[12:05] <Preed> popey: I'd love it on my SGS3 :)
[12:05] <popey> equally we're not geared up to make images for every phone someone asks for
[12:06] <Preed> popey: Well, I assume you will for the most popular devices? Btw, is the docking and launching full desktop going to be in both ubuntu for android and the ubuntu-phone?
[12:06] <Transhumanist> Of course. But given Samsung's dominance and that the S3 and Note 2 are extremely common and meet your hardware specs, it would seem a smart move to target them.
[12:06] <k1l> popey: ah, thanks from the info.  i only knew about the atrix
[12:06] <jrtappers> What phone will be the first to get ubuntu phone support in beta?
[12:06] <popey> jrtappers: no decision yet
[12:07] <popey> Preed: its in U4A, and makes sense to be in U4P too, assuming a few things
[12:08] <Preed> Do android apps/google store run on A4P too? Or does it require a full android system underneath?
[12:08] <popey> A4P?
[12:09] <Preed> I mean the android phone
[12:09] <Preed> erm... ubuntu phone
[12:09] <AlanBell> wait, Android runs on phones???
[12:09] <popey> hah
[12:09] <Preed> sorry Im tired, was up coding till 8 this morning and got up at 10 :o
[12:09] <k1l> AlanBell: yes but its just a beta :)
[12:09] <AlanBell> whatever will they come up with next :)
[12:09] <popey> U4A is Ubuntu on top of Android, and the Android bit works just like a "normal" Android phone
[12:10] <popey> so yeah, the "Android" in "Ubuntu for Android" has play store and Android apps etc
[12:10] <k1l> the ubuntu-phone wont have the google play
[12:10] <Preed> popey: What Im wondering is if the "ubuntu phone" will be able to run google play store/android apps?
[12:10] <popey> Ubuntu for Phones isn't Android, so no, it won't have Google Play
[12:10] <popey> Just like iOS doesn't have Google Play ☺
[12:11] <Preed> popey: Im guessing it might be a while until the app market for U4P has caught up with play store...?
[12:12] <Preed> although porting the apps from android to U4P should be quite easy
[12:13] <popey> Yeah, see Marks recent mail to ubuntu-devel about that
[12:13] <popey> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2013-January/036297.html
[12:13] <popey> now is the time
[12:13] <Transhumanist> can anyone subscribe to ubuntu-del?
[12:13] <Transhumanist> thanks
[12:13] <popey> yes, but it's moderated
[12:13] <popey> i.e. not a discussion list
[12:13] <Preed> maybe even the SDK has option to compile for U4P and U4A simultaneously?
[12:14] <popey> there is ubuntu-devel-discuss for discussion
[12:14] <Transhumanist> I don't wish to reply, just receive it :)
[12:14] <popey> Preed: nope
[12:14] <k1l> well, not having apps was a big problem for webos (beside the really insane pricing of the products)
[12:14] <popey> ah okay, thats what i do Transhumanist
[12:14] <popey> yeah,it's a challenge
[12:14] <k1l> i hope ubuntu finds a way to pass this cliff
[12:14] <Transhumanist> native Ubuntu apps won't run on U4P, right? Need to be coded in QML?
[12:15] <popey> they could be ported
[12:15] <popey> we're recommending Qt/QML, yes
[12:15] <Transhumanist> yes, but they need to be. However, QML apps should run fine on desktop Ubuntu once the phone is docked?
[12:15] <Transhumanist> So QML isn't required?
[12:16] <Preed> Transhumanist: probably not, since when its docked Im guessing its still running the same kernel/drivers etc
[12:16] <chriadam|away> it depends on your definition of "run fine".  when you're dealing with an entirely different HCI paradigm, you _need_ to adapt for application for the best user experience.
[12:18] <chriadam|away> having a touch-optimised, limited screen real-estate application running as-is on a desktop is... suboptimal.  and similarly, having a desktop-optimised, large screen with physical input methods, application, simply doesn't translate to the mobile device.  so that's one thing that is going to need developer support for, imo.
[12:18] <Transhumanist> I agree with that.
[12:19] <Transhumanist> But it'd be smart to have QML work flawlessly on Ubuntu desktop so that the only porting devs need to do is the UI side of things. Still a daunting task, but that still saves a lot of other code from having to be ported.
[12:19] <chriadam|away> QML does work flawlessly on Ubuntu desktop
[12:20] <Transhumanist> Yeah I figure. So people just need to start using it for native Ubuntu desktop apps
[12:20] <Transhumanist> so there's a big pool to draw from when U4P does come out
[12:21] <chriadam|away> people have been.  bobweaver has been writing some really interesting things, for example ;-)  but I agree, it has a long way to go in terms of traction in the developer community.
[12:23] <Transhumanist> that's cool. I'm writing an Android app at the moment that sends new vocabulary words to the notification bar each day. Will something like this be possible in Ubuntu Phone? If there a notifications feature?
[12:30] <Transhumanist> I believe Mark Shuttleworth is providing funding to an Australian mobile phone mesh networking project for making calls in a decentralised way. It would be cool to see that eventually integrated into Ubuntu Phones.
[13:16] <Degwees> Hey everyone, I've got a question about the mobile Ubuntu. Will any current phones be supported?
[13:17] <Degwees> particularly bada phones
[13:18] <k1l> at least the phones need to be open to let a linux be installed. and then they need to ship linux drivers
[13:18] <Degwees> I'm using a Samsung S8500, last I heard when someone tried to port Android onto it, they burned 4 phones and stopped working on the project
[13:19] <Transhumanist> The first phones are HIGHLY likely to be phones which can run Android. They're also likely to be phones which are very easy to unlock. E.g. Nexus devices.
[13:19] <Transhumanist> but that's just the first phones
[13:19] <Degwees> As far as I know, Android, Bada and Ubuntu all come from Debian?
[13:20] <Transhumanist> Android doesn't
[13:20] <Transhumanist> Android uses the Linux kernel, but the rest is fairly unique
[13:20] <Degwees> Alright
[13:21] <Transhumanist> I say that they'll probably target Android phones because they'll want to prevent duplication of effort, and they've got a seperate team working on getting Ubuntu running on Android phones while Android remains installed
[13:21] <k1l> android is a linux kernel with alot of java
[13:21] <Degwees> Guess I'll check if they've evolved over the last year with bada phones. It'd be awesome to see something else on the Samsung Wave cos you know... bada sucks
[13:22] <Transhumanist> haha
[13:22] <Degwees> It was great at first... great player, great camera, great everything with a but
[13:22] <Degwees> but it was never truly stable
[13:22] <Degwees> And after 2+ years that seriously gets on my nerves
[13:23] <Degwees> I mean, you know.... Even the god damn alarm clock didn't work properly :D
[13:23] <Transhumanist> I can see that. I had the Debian-based Nokia N900. Good phone. Fairly stable. But Nokia never really supported it. Paperweight now I guess.
[13:24] <Degwees> I've been on the SE boat mostly, just later started using Samsung. It's nice but they don't seem to be very good at software development
[13:25] <Transhumanist> Try their Smart TV. It's a nightmare.
[13:25] <Degwees> Haven't had the chance to, yet
[13:25] <Transhumanist> Don't.
[13:25] <Degwees> Heard news about Estonian Elion and Samsung working together to create a system which doesnt require a "digibox"
[13:25] <Degwees> not too sure how it's called in english though
[13:25] <Transhumanist> You'd think that with such a strong phones department, Samsung could put 2 and 2 together and use Android for TV's for a streamlined experience. But not.
[13:26] <Degwees> but that was for TVs
[13:27] <Degwees> Ah well, maybe I'll just upgrade to a Samsung S2 and give the Wave to my wife lol
[13:27] <Degwees> Anyways, thanks for the information :)
[13:27] <Transhumanist> I'm not sure the S2 will see Ubuntu any time soon.
[13:27] <Transhumanist> The Galaxy Nexus would be a better upgrade choice
[13:27] <Transhumanist> especially since it now runs Android 4.2
[13:28] <Degwees> Can't S2 be upgraded to that?
[13:28] <Transhumanist> When Samsung decides to.
[13:28] <Transhumanist> The Galaxy Nexus is a superior device to the S2
[13:28] <Transhumanist> should cost about the same
[13:28] <Transhumanist> and the Galaxy Nexus seems to be the testing phone for Ubuntu for Phones
[13:29] <Degwees> Costs a bit more here actually, just checked
[13:29] <Degwees> It's 360€ vs 390€
[13:29] <Transhumanist> OK. What if you order overseas? I am Australian, but my Galaxy Note 2 is from Bulgaria.
[13:29] <Transhumanist> haha
[13:29] <Degwees> :D
[13:29] <Transhumanist> anyway, best to keep this chan to Ubuntu discussion I guess
[13:29] <popey> ☺
[13:29] <popey> its cool
[13:29] <Degwees> Thats probably 250 AUD and 270
[13:31] <Transhumanist> =)
[13:31] <Degwees> Thanks though, I'll remember that
[13:32] <Degwees> But yeah, not sure if I'd still be getting the Nexus for it seems to lack battery life now that i'm reading into it
[13:32] <Degwees> Which, you know, is awesome for the S2 and even the Wave... The first year at least :D
[13:34] <Degwees> Anyways thank again!
[13:34] <Degwees> thanks*
[13:35] <Transhumanist> no problem. Nice to chat :(
[13:35] <Transhumanist> err :)
[14:57] <today> Will ubuntu be faster than android?
[14:57] <today> I mean, its basically a native app, right?
[14:58] <today> Using native apps*
[15:00] <AlanBell> today: impossible to say, and what you think of as "faster" might not be to do with the application speed as such
[15:00] <AlanBell> it will be plenty fast enough on a 2014 model phone
[15:01] <today> Low end phones will still exist
[15:01] <today> What are its languages for development?
[15:02] <k1l> the minimum specs mentioned on the site are not really low end phones
[15:02] <today> No java right?
[15:02] <AlanBell> low end screens will still exist, low end processors not so much
[15:02] <today> My new phone is 500 mhz
[15:02] <AlanBell> today: "native" apps are Qt/QML with javascript
[15:03] <today> java is slow right?
[15:03] <AlanBell> HTML 5 is also supported, I am guessing that is a webkit rendering engine
[15:03] <AlanBell> no, java is not slow
[15:03] <today> Its high level
[15:04] <AlanBell> a JVM takes a little while to start which is why 10 years ago, java applets were slow to start
[15:04] <today> Its slower than c ++ no?
[15:05] <AlanBell> not really in any practical sense
[15:05] <today> Mmm ever played triplea? That's slow, and its all java
[15:05] <AlanBell> it is all about the algorithm, not the language
[15:05] <today> You need a quad core machine to run it decently
[15:05] <today> The language is built on algorithims
[15:06] <today> And ever java app I use, is slow
[15:06] <k1l> ab bad scripted app on html5,qml or whatever will always be slower than a good java one.
[15:06] <AlanBell> quad core only helps multithreaded applications or running many processes at once
[15:06] <AlanBell> if you have a single threaded application then throwing more cores at it does not make any difference at all
[15:07] <today> Still its slow
[15:07] <AlanBell> and hardly anything is ever CPU bound, it is all IO waiting
[15:07] <today> Android apps are slow too :p
[15:07] <AlanBell> write an algorithm that touches the disk less it will go faster, nothing at all to do with the language
[15:08] <today> It has allot to do with the language
[15:08] <today> On java it is easier to make slow apps
[15:08] <AlanBell> why?
[15:10] <today> Its high level
[15:10] <today> And ugly too imo
[15:10] <today> I tried a bunch of development environments programmed in java. Ugly and terribly slow, and buggy
[15:10] <AlanBell> there are lots of reasons to not like java very much, but applets in web browsers in the late '90s being a bit sluggish is not one of them
[15:10] <AlanBell> swing is ugly perhaps
[15:10] <today> I'm talking about desktop apps
[16:02] <M4rtinK> what about Python support @ Ubuntu-phone ?
[16:03] <M4rtinK> there are quite a lot of people writing mobile Python applications in the Maemo/MeeGo community
[16:03] <M4rtinK> (running on Nokia N900 & N9)
[16:03] <M4rtinK> using the LGPL PySide bindings for Qt
[16:04] <M4rtinK> and it looks like PyQt already supports Qt5 (which is what Ubuntu-phone is using, right ?)
[16:17] <popey> yes, to qt5
[16:18] <M4rtinK> so is Python support on the official roadmap ? or left to the community ?
[17:24] <Walther> let's just hope that some of the community efforts will be accepted and pulled as official supports :P
[17:25] <Walther> because that's what true community support should be - community's work taken as part of the whole
[17:26] <Walther> not just as "download the community patch from here and there" for everything and nothing
[17:41] <M4rtinK> for the record, I've just got QML hello world running with Qt5 & PyQt on desktop :)
[17:58] <Walther> Are there any plans to merge the Ubuntu Phone work to Ubuntu Nexus work?
[17:59] <Walther> As in, having the Ubuntu Phone UI in a tablet would make sense as well
[17:59] <Walther> or perhaps switching between phone UI and desktop UI
[18:04] <popey> Walther: much of the ubuntu phone work will ripple into the distro, so as a byproduct will end up in the nexus7 build
[18:04] <popey> and vice versa, lessons learned from the nexus 7 experiment will result in a better phone experience
[18:04] <Walther> mmh. But I was mainly thinking about the swipe UI
[18:05] <Walther> which is unlikely to pop to the desktop version at least
[18:11] <xavinux1> Hi people, I would like to know how can I cntribute with the Ubuntu phone
[18:11] <AlanBell> Walther: some of that is already in the desktop version, it was called utouch but they don't call it that any more
[18:12] <AlanBell> xavinux1: mostly by learning about QML at the moment and thinking about what apps you might like to develop for the platform
[18:12] <Walther> yeah, at least the ability to three-finger drag and zoom windows, which is really cool
[18:13] <Walther> But yeah, I hope there will be tight collaboration between the -phone and -nexus teams
[18:13] <xavinux1> thanks for your answer AlanBell
[18:13] <popey> s/utouch/open input framework/
[18:15] <xavinux1> so need people that program with QT Languaje?
[18:15] <xavinux1> and develop apps?
[18:16] <AlanBell> xavinux1: right now there is nothing to see, and nothing to contribute to in the platform itself, but we do know that if you want to write apps for it then Qt/QML is going to be the way to do that
[18:17] <Walther> I wish the possibility to help in platform level would arise as soon as possible
[18:17] <Walther> as in, support for different devices etc
[18:22] <xavinux1> ok Sir, as Walther says, I have a Nokia N9, perhaps can be userful to test the platform on it and support other devices as they do with nexus?
[18:25] <Walther> I have a N9 as well, and extremely willing to help testing on it
[18:26] <Walther> N9 should be pretty well documented - there's the MeeGo community hacks, Mer project, Nitdroid android port for it, Jolla Sailfish... etc
[18:27] <Walther> so porting ubu phone to it shouldn't be difficult
[18:27] <popey> The N9 might be a bit slow these days.
[18:27] <AlanBell> I would expect there will be some instructions for the Galaxy Nexus after CES or perhaps after MWC
[18:28] <AlanBell> and my guess is that the first other thing it gets put on will be the Nexus 7
[18:28] <AlanBell> even though that isn't a phone
[18:34] <xavinux1> ok AlanBell
[18:35] <Walther> yes, it would be great to put it on my nexus 7 :O
[18:35] <Walther> :P *
[18:36] <xavinux1> Walther would be great to run it on the n9 too, don't it?
[18:36] <Walther> yup
[18:37] <gac> out of interest, are people going to be able to do their own builds, a la xda-developers? I've just retired my original HTC Desire which just about meets the minimum specs on the webpage, so i'd be interested to know if this is ever likely to arrive on that
[18:37] <gac> although being a very old handset, I don't expect there'll be anything official from ubuntu/canonical
[18:38] <Walther> I would hope for more of a "generic kernel" approach
[18:38] <Walther> as in, not only custom ports a la xda-developers, but those patches for support being pulled to the real distribution
[18:39] <Walther> it would be even better
[18:39] <Walther> have the advantage of not beign a custom build -> updates not dependent on the couple dudes who ported it
[18:39] <gac> it would, but it then creates the illusion of more support than there actually is IMO, so i don't think canonical would do that
[18:40] <Walther> we can hope though, and be vocal about it
[18:48] <popey> gac: yes, we're expecting to release a build which people can hack around with for other phones
[18:49] <popey> but what we release will be open source so people can use that and build their own
[18:54] <gac> sounds good, i'll keep hold of the Desire then rather than shipping it off for recycling, see what happens with ubuntu :)
[18:55] <M4rtinK> a HP Touchpad build would be nice :)
[18:55] <M4rtinK> many developers got them from the firesale (myself included) :)
[18:55] <Walther> But I take it no repos / builds are available until as of CES
[18:58] <M4rtinK> also already runs Android with CM9 just fine
[19:00] <Walther> BTW, is there a dedicated channel for nexus ubuntu?
[19:00] <Walther> nexus 7 ubuntu *
[19:00] <popey> It's unlikely anything will be available anytime soon
[19:01] <Walther> but we are the anxious geeks! we want our weekly fix of hacking now :P
[19:01] <popey> hehe, me too!
[19:01] <M4rtinK> +1
[19:03] <netchip> pff
[19:03] <netchip> We know how Ubuntu Phone is looking
[19:03] <netchip> And now it's just waiting for source code
[19:03] <netchip> I don't care about images
[19:03] <netchip> They won't help my SGS3
[19:27] <xavinux1> if the n9 can run an android 4.1 without problem, think can run an ubuntu phone os..
[19:46] <Walther> Yeah, that's what I thought
[19:47] <Walther> it might not be fast enough to comfortably run the desktop thing on a dock
[19:47] <Walther> but for the basic phone OS, it should be *fine*
[19:47] <Walther> not only barely enough, but fine
[21:33] <kristof> Hey! Any word on when we'll get those images for ubuntu-mobile?
 kristof: no need for swearing
[21:34] <kristof> k1l: :C apologies.
[21:34] <kristof> Is there a release date planned?
[21:35] <k1l> no, no dates yet. but it is to be expected that the dev-phone release (galaxy nexus) will be released some time after the CES
[21:36] <kristof> I'm a bit irritated that this was developed behind closed doors, but whatever.
[21:36] <k1l> kristof: why are you irritated that its behind closed doors?
[21:37] <kristof> k1l: Because the point of open-source is for open development. Much of the work to build Ubuntu Mobile has already happened.
[21:37] <kristof> It's effectively closed-source.
[21:38] <kristof> (until the dev release)
[21:39] <k1l> kristof: wait i will post a post from alan bell because i wont type it again: https://plus.google.com/109175303602657131317/posts/6doQRuuN433
[21:39] <k1l> if you want to contirbute (i bet most of the critics wont anyway, they just want a shitstorm) there will be a release after the CES
[21:41] <kristof> k1l: Oh, that was actually quite informative, thank you. =)
[21:42] <kristof> I suspected that most of this was developed in the open but simply as fragmented software.
[21:42] <kristof> Alright, I'm satisfied. Thanks!
[21:42] <k1l> CES is a business meeting, where ubuntu wants to show the OS to the manufactures to get them on the boat. it was not a user-press release so far
[21:43] <k1l> makes a bookmark on AlanBell s google+ post :)
[21:51] <AlanBell> did I accidentally say something useful?
[21:54] <bobweaver> k1l,  howabout this I have been asking for days where I should upload fixs to the Elements that Ubuntu made I have gotteen no where
[21:55] <bobweaver> where I should file bugs
[21:55] <AlanBell> for days??
[21:55] <bobweaver> for days
[21:55] <AlanBell> 3 days tops :)
[21:55] <bobweaver> 2 days
[21:55] <xavinux1> Walther think we can start testing Ubuntu and make it work the N9? Anyone may be interested in helping?
[21:55] <bobweaver> lol
[21:55] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  you are funny man lol
[21:56] <bobweaver> yeah I amwhere is the colde
[21:56] <bobweaver> er
[21:56] <AlanBell> I have filed 1 bug so far, one sec . . . .
[21:56] <AlanBell> bug #1096341
[21:56] <bobweaver> I need to know what glib schema the phone is using so That I can write apps against it
[21:57] <bobweaver> !bug #1096341
[21:57] <bobweaver> comon bot
[21:57] <bobweaver> lol
[21:57] <AlanBell> bug #1096341
[21:57] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  now try to look at the font
[21:57] <bobweaver> and resize it
[21:57] <bobweaver> lol
[21:57] <bobweaver> or try to right click on anything that uses a abstract button
[21:58] <bobweaver> or have anything that needs to hover a abstract Button or resize it smoothly
[21:58] <AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/qml-toolkit is the place to file bugs
[21:58] <bobweaver> thanks AlanBell  what up patchs ?
[21:59] <AlanBell> all hidden in here somewhere: https://launchpad.net/manhattan
[21:59] <AlanBell> no source code yet
[21:59] <AlanBell> bobweaver: so you have the QML stuff running?
[22:00] <bobweaver> yeah I had to download the tar and then build the comentents my self
[22:00] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  I have a version of Unity 2d that uses the stuff yes
[22:00] <AlanBell> I got QT creator running earlier, but got annoyed about the different versions of QML in the repos and PPA and got bored
[22:00] <bobweaver> s|comentents| Compents
[22:00] <bobweaver> I can spell
[22:01] <bobweaver> can't lol
[22:01] <bobweaver> AlanBell, Never set Bashrc to do a man's / womens job
[22:01] <AlanBell> :)
[22:01] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  I use 3 different qt version and have never had any trouble
[22:02] <bobweaver> AlanBell, what I am working on Right now (most is still qt-quick 1 )
[22:02] <bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhRBTqdlYSg
[22:03] <AlanBell> oh I am sure it isn't much trouble, I just put some qt 2.0 code in qt creator and it complained
[22:03] <bobweaver> so everything that I have wrote for the TV will also work in the phone
[22:04] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  it is the backend of Unity 2d that uses qx11info that is not in qt5
[22:04] <AlanBell> nice
[22:04] <bobweaver> so I am porting that but it is going to take me a couple of months. But if the phone is already there I do not need to port
[22:04] <AlanBell> so do you have a remote control that is going to run on the phone?
[22:04] <bobweaver> as I have 3 different form factors
[22:05] <bobweaver> TV , Desktop , Tablet
[22:05] <bobweaver> all can be changed from  the dash
[22:05] <bobweaver> and all is 3rd party , that is why I must know how the glib is set up in phone
[22:07] <bobweaver> if (unity2dConfiguerationformFactor [22:07] <AlanBell> don't forget rotation, the phone could be tall or wide
[22:09] <bobweaver> Image { source: foo.png rotation: if (status [22:10] <bobweaver> I think that I like adding Behavior on whatever
[22:10] <bobweaver> rather then states and transtions but there is a time and place for wverything
[22:10] <bobweaver> everything
[22:10] <AlanBell> so what does that do? spin 360 degrees when you rotate the phone?
[22:11] <bobweaver> well you could all it when ever you want say on a button or what ever
[22:11] <bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb8s7pSBu30
[22:11] <bobweaver> On the light dm parts  and the parts that are loading are all behaviors
[22:12] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  that I can not tel you because I do not know how the phone glib settings are set
[22:13] <bobweaver> I am sure that it is some sorta Strut Manager but not sure how I could call iut because I have not seen the code yet :)
[22:14] <bobweaver> AlanBell, here I will write a simple app that spins a picture
[22:14] <AlanBell> I get that things can spin
[22:15] <AlanBell> the thing is when the user rotates the phone the canvas changes shape
[22:15] <AlanBell> and they can rotate it left or right
[22:16] <AlanBell> so you might want to reflow to a two column layout in landscape mode, or change some of the controls
[22:16] <AlanBell> there is an iOS calculator that is a conventional 4 function calculator in portrait mode and a scientific calculator in landscape
[22:18] <bobweaver> AlanBell, http://paste.ubuntu.com/1500958/
[22:20] <AlanBell> file:///home/alan/spin/spin.qml:1:1: module "QtQuick" version 2.0 is not installed  import QtQuick 2.0
[22:20] <bobweaver> Behavior Trumps everything see if the mouseArea is clicked it says that the text rotation = 1 . but because there is a behavior that is assigned to it it does that
[22:20] <bobweaver> change it to import QtQuick 1.1
[22:20] <AlanBell> why?
[22:20] <bobweaver> or change your qt version that you are useing
[22:21] <AlanBell> how?
[22:21] <bobweaver> tools -> options -> qt -> qtversions
[22:21] <bobweaver> then add the qmake file
[22:21] <bobweaver>  /opt/qt5/bin/qmake
[22:22] <AlanBell> I don't have a qt section in tools-options
[22:22] <AlanBell> ah, build and run
[22:23] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  http://imagebin.org/241859
[22:24] <bobweaver> or you can configure using project button
[22:24] <bobweaver> "Manage Versions "
[22:27] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  IMHO the ppa for daily is not that great it is beta qt5
[22:27] <bobweaver> gstreamer is all messed up in it webview and other's also
[22:27] <bobweaver> best to DL from nokia's site
[22:27] <bobweaver> stable qt5
[22:28] <AlanBell> I think I will wait until it hits the repos
[22:28] <bobweaver> http://qt-project.org/wiki/Qt_5.0
[22:29] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  what is your version of qtcreator 2.5.0 ?       help-->about qtcreator
[22:30] <AlanBell> Qt Creator 2.6.0
[22:30] <bobweaver> nice
[22:30] <bobweaver> higher then mine I use 2.5.0 my fav version so far. But I do not use the designer
[22:31] <AlanBell> do you use it with multiple monitors?
[22:31] <bobweaver> and tv's
[22:31] <AlanBell> I have one monitor higher than the other and the menus get disconnected and appear at the hight of the lower monitor
[22:31] <AlanBell> I should do a bug report about that
[22:32] <bobweaver> screenshot  ?
[22:32] <bobweaver> that kinda sounds like a bamf thingy
[22:32] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  unity2d or 3d ?
[22:33] <AlanBell> gnome shell
[22:33] <AlanBell> I will try in unity in a sec
[22:34] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  if you are looking for a mass amounts of example code I have a ppa
[22:34] <bobweaver>  ~u2t/bleedingedge
[22:34] <bobweaver> only for 12.04 though :(
[22:36] <AlanBell> menus work in unity
[22:37] <bobweaver> Right now I am making it so that there are var's for all the Easing.<This> and durration:<This>  so that users can change the way that icons are loaded in  launcher /dash
[22:39] <bobweaver> so that behavior code will look like this
[22:39] <bobweaver>         Behavior on rotation {NumberAnimation{from: 0 ;to: 1080;duration: (dashLensConfigureation.durrationTime); easing.type: Easing.dashLensConfigureation.easingType}
[22:40] <bobweaver> so then user can do  gsettings set com.canonical.Unity2d.dashLensConfigurations durration-time = 1300
[22:40] <AlanBell> http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/qml-ubuntu-components0-pagestack.html I guess all apps load in a pagestack which does the right side swipe
[22:40] <bobweaver> or I will make a slider in the home sections
[22:41] <bobweaver> Yeah I am sure that PageStack calls other things or at least it should or it is not a Real UI
[22:41] <bobweaver> just a shell so to say and would not be able to interact with gnome
[22:41] <AlanBell> wonder if an app can screw about with the QML of another app if they are done like that
[22:42] <bobweaver> what do you mean ?
[22:42] <bobweaver> like take a app  that is in C++ and then make a declaritive view for it ?
[22:42] <AlanBell> well in one page can I do this.parent.otherapp.something
[22:43] <bobweaver> still not sure what you mean sorry
[22:44] <AlanBell> in the demo you saw the apps switcher right? you swipe from the right edge of the screen to page through all the apps running
[22:44] <bobweaver> yeh
[22:44] <AlanBell> so how isolated are they in terms of scope?
[22:45] <bobweaver> I am *guessing* that that is a strut manager with C++ backing just like launcher and how it hides and knows the size of screen
[22:45] <AlanBell> if the switcher is a pagestack and each app is loaded on a page are they sandboxed into that page or is it all one big QML structure that they can all access
[22:45] <bobweaver> I am sure that there is also global vars that are used for that but not sure because I have not seen backend code yet
[22:46] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  I am guessing hear but I bet there is a Model
[22:46] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  say I wanted to be able to open any *.desktop file in qml and I wanted it to be simple
[22:46] <bobweaver> make c++ plugin  http://paste.ubuntu.com/1501017/
[22:46] <bobweaver> then in a "plugin" file I exspose the element
[22:46] <bobweaver> so that in qml I can call it
[22:47] <bobweaver> Like this http://paste.ubuntu.com/1501024/
[22:48] <bobweaver> because there is a element that Is created in C++ and I exspose it to QML via Plug in I can then call it any time that I want
[22:48] <bobweaver> like in a button
[22:48] <bobweaver> that is how Unity 2d launchs all its apps
[22:49] <bobweaver> well......
[22:49] <bobweaver> there is alot more to it then that but  idea over all
[22:50] <bobweaver> the c++ will make a LIB under /usr/lib/qt(version)/imports/PluginName
[22:50] <AlanBell> yeah, I don't think that it can be a pagestack exactly
[22:51] <bobweaver> then you just import that in you your qml file in are example   import Application 1.0
[22:51] <mhall119> AlanBell: the apps are all going to be sandboxed and isolated from eachother, if that's your concern
[22:51] <bobweaver> Or you can make a bunch of qml and make a folder and make that a plugin also just like Ubuntu.Componets is done
[22:52] <AlanBell> mhall119: cool, I was expecting that to be the case somehow. It is hard to get a grasp of the overall architecture from the bits that have been released
[22:55] <bobweaver> AlanBell,  + 1 million
[22:55] <mhall119> AlanBell: I don't expect the window-management functionality itself is written in QM:
[22:55] <bobweaver> only reason I have not wrote apps for it yet
[22:56] <bobweaver> I have no idea what I can do with the core backend yet and I do not need to make a bunch of declaritiv things that I do not know if the phone has already
[22:57] <bobweaver> mhall119,  qt-bamf  ?
[22:57] <bobweaver> Phone will be like
[22:57] <bobweaver> org.ayatana.bamf.view' on object at path /org/ayatana/bamf/application756416830
[22:57] <bobweaver> org.ayatana.bamf.view' on object at path /org/ayatana/bamf/application756416830
[22:58] <bobweaver> lol
[22:58] <AlanBell> mhall119: oh, I thought it would be. I presume the UbuntuShape function is for the launcher buttons so figured the rest would be QML
[22:58] <mhall119> bobweaver: there may be some manner of bamf going on
[22:58] <mhall119> AlanBell: I bet there's a lot of the UI that uses QML
[22:58] <AlanBell> mhall119: do you know much more about this than we do?
[22:58] <mhall119> but window management is more low-level than that
[22:58] <mhall119> AlanBell: not really, no
[22:59] <AlanBell> ok, fair enough :)
[22:59] <mhall119> everything I knew about it what was announced
[22:59] <mhall119> "is what was announced"
[22:59] <mhall119> I don't even have a prototype :(
[22:59] <bobweaver> mhall119,  that is what I am talking about once I know all about all that if bamf then there is dbus if dbus that means that there is a gio and then that means that there is ways to cingure things in a awesome fasion
[22:59] <mhall119> bobweaver: I can pretty much gurantee that there is dbus
[22:59] <bobweaver> trickle down effect
[23:00] <mhall119> since all of unity/dash/indicators/notifications on the desktop is done that way
[23:00]  * bobweaver needs config.h.in and <source>/data/* 
[23:00] <AlanBell> personally I think the main blocker for starting to thing about contemplating writing apps is that I don't know how rotation works, or how to simulate rotation on a desktop application
[23:00] <mhall119> but bamf was written to overcome a deficiency in X, if it's using (or going to be using) something else, bamf might not be needed
[23:00] <AlanBell> and what the expected standard behaviour of a rotated app on this platform is
[23:01] <AlanBell> or how big the screen might be relative to the gu
[23:01] <bobweaver>  standard behaviour  most the time == gschema.xml
[23:01] <mhall119> AlanBell: I'm told there is an emulator in the works, using whatever the Android SDK uses to emulate (qemu I think), that should probably let you simulate rotations
[23:01] <mhall119> AlanBell: the API gives some examples of pixels-per-gu
[23:02] <bobweaver> qume has armel things so I bet that that is it
[23:02] <mhall119> AlanBell: http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/resolution-independence.html
[23:02] <bobweaver> just wish that I could help make this better lol :)
[23:02] <AlanBell> yeah, I guess I can work out the gus per screen for common resolutions
[23:02] <mhall119> bobweaver: you will, soon, everybody this week was busy preparring for the announcement, and then preparring for CES
[23:03] <bobweaver> Like I see that there is going to be all desktop phone and everything so that makes me start guessing and I do not like to guess when I am writing apps :)
[23:03] <AlanBell> some screen shots or design drafts for the core apps with measurement lines in gu would be good to see what is going on in the designer mind for those
[23:03] <bobweaver> mhall119,  I know I just want it NOW !
[23:03] <bobweaver> lol
[23:03] <AlanBell> and a video of an app rotating would be good
[23:03] <mhall119> AlanBell: pixels-per-gu is a function of pixel density, not just resolution
[23:03] <bobweaver> NO
[23:03] <mhall119> bobweaver: you and me both :)
[23:03] <bobweaver> that is not a good Idea
[23:04] <bobweaver> you should make your pixle not by some js function
[23:04] <mhall119> AlanBell: those are being written as we speak (not literally, since it's Saturday)
[23:04] <bobweaver> font.pixleSize:  parent.width / 12
[23:04] <bobweaver> that way when re-sizing it will resize if screen gets bigger
[23:04] <bobweaver> same with any elements
[23:04] <AlanBell> bobweaver: yeah, the gu stuff does appear to need a lot more justification for it's existence than it has at the moment!
[23:05] <mhall119> AlanBell: retina displays and the new screens on, say, the GS3 are jusitification for grid units
[23:06] <AlanBell> mhall119: I understand the problem they are trying to solve
[23:06] <mhall119> one grid unit should, more or less, represent the same physical size regardless of pixel density and resolution
[23:06] <bobweaver> like if I do   Image{source: foo.png ; width: Utils.pxgu(70 )}      it will always stay that even if you are in big screen and even if there is different functions for formfactors
[23:07] <bobweaver> best to do Image{source: foo.png ; width: parent.width / 12}
[23:07] <bobweaver> or what ever looks like 70 px
[23:07] <mhall119> bobweaver: parent might re-size without you wanting the button resized
[23:07] <bobweaver> I found that out the hard way with t v
[23:07] <AlanBell> yes, but this gu is quite big. Not exactly tying up with font sizes, but that order of magnitude. It isn't small as in the width of a thin line
[23:07] <bobweaver> mhall119,  then you hardcode
[23:08] <AlanBell> and it isn't a consistent fraction of the screen size
[23:08] <mhall119> bobweaver: not to pixels, because 50px on an old laptop LCD is button size, but on a retina display it's tiny
[23:08] <bobweaver> or you do    if (dashConfigureation.fullScreen [23:09] <mhall119> the point is that you always want you button to be button sized, regardless of the size of it's parent, regardless of the size of the screen, regardless of the screen's resolution or it's pixel density
[23:09] <bobweaver> then it should be a better way to know what the overall size like WindowInfo {}  and then change that way not writing in a bunch of functions
[23:09] <AlanBell> it kind of needs a blog article sized thing justifying why it is a good unit, and where it should be used. I am sure that must exist internally.
[23:09] <bobweaver> also translations have been changed :(
[23:10] <bobweaver> use to be u2d.tr("this is text to translate ")
[23:10] <mhall119> AlanBell: it probably doesn't exist internally, as I'm sure it was all discussed in design meetings until everybody undersstood
[23:10] <mhall119> but I can request it
[23:10] <bobweaver> but there is also wrote into qs.tr() or whatever the functions is in qt
[23:11] <bobweaver> qsTr("text") *
[23:12] <AlanBell> mhall119: so me, ali1234, bobweaver all reacted in a "why on earth would I use a unit like that, it is all the bad bits of pixels combined with the not quite rightness of points"
[23:12] <AlanBell> I am sure it can be justified, but if that is going to be part of the consistent rhythm of the user interface it needs a bit more selling!
[23:13] <bobweaver> << horrible designer
[23:13] <bobweaver> :)
[23:13] <bobweaver> at any rate I am just supper happy that I am going to be hacking on this code soon
[23:13] <bobweaver> until then I make more and more apps that are for unity 2d that can be interdrated real fast to phone core
[23:14] <Billy88> Yabaaa
[23:14] <bobweaver> Once I know about the qt/c++/dee/bamf/gio/whatever that the phone core is using and if it is using libunity ect
[23:14] <Billy88> 3orrr
[23:14] <Billy88> Kol 5ara
[23:15] <bobweaver> Billy88,  spill something on keyboard ?
[23:15] <mhall119> bobweaver: I'm interested in how to access libunity from QML myself, I'll ask about that on Monday
[23:16] <bobweaver> mhall119,  in CmakeList.txt
[23:16] <Billy88> It's my kid
[23:16] <Billy88> I can't tell him no
[23:17] <Billy88> ffg
[23:17] <bobweaver> mhall119,  like      pkg_check_modules(UNITYCORE REQUIRED unity-core-6.0)
[23:18] <bobweaver> then your project knows that it needs that to work
[23:18] <bobweaver> then you just add the libs that you want to use to your C++ files that you are going to make into declaritive views
[23:21] <bobweaver> so say #include "deelistmodel.h"     then in plugin.cpp      qmlRegisterType<DeeListModel>(uri, 0, 1, "DeeListModel");         then anytime in my qml I just call    DeeListModel{QML Goes Here }
[23:21] <bobweaver> as long as I import the libs
[23:23] <bobweaver> mhall119,  plugin.cpp     http://paste.ubuntu.com/1501103/     look at the bottom of the file "Q_EXPORT_PLUGIN2(Unity2d, Unity2dPlugin);"        that means that I can all any of them elements now as long as I have a at the top of my qml file      import Unity2d 1.0
[23:26] <bobweaver> hope that helps :)
[23:30] <HeLLy> I was told to come to this channel with maybe some help on connect mobile broadband here in Bolivia since it is the only country not listed in South America was really hoping to have internet tomorrow for NFL games I will be going back to the states this wednesday so was hoping for a quick fix soon :-/
[23:33] <bobweaver> HeLLy,  I am watching the CIN vs HOU game atm
[23:38] <mhall119> bobweaver: I'm assuming it's not called Unity2d on the phone version
[23:39] <bobweaver> correct
[23:39] <bobweaver> them are the things that I am wondering about :)
[23:39] <mhall119> bobweaver: and that gives you access to your app's LauncherEntry and stuff?
[23:39] <bobweaver> Not sure what you mean ?
[23:40] <mhall119> bobweaver: http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/python/Unity-6.0.html#Unity.LauncherEntry
[23:40] <mhall119> that's what you use to add progress bars and counters to your Launcher icon
[23:41] <mhall119> I'm wondering how you'd do that from an app written in QML
[23:43] <bobweaver> progession on what ?
[23:43] <bobweaver> progress *
[23:43] <mhall119> on something you app is doing
[23:43] <mhall119> it can show in-app progress in the Unity Launcher icon for that app
[23:44] <bobweaver> Oh
[23:44] <bobweaver> you can send signal
[23:44] <mhall119> Nautilus uses it for file-copies, update-manager uses it for upgrade progress, etc
[23:45] <bobweaver> http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/python/Unity-6.0.html#Unity.Filter       can be seen used here  http://paste.ubuntu.com/1501149/
[23:45] <bobweaver> then that is exported to qml element as you can see in the plugin
[23:46] <ThomasCorwin> How could you purchase a Ubuntu Mobile Device?
[23:46] <bobweaver> so yes mhall119
[23:48] <k1l> ThomasCorwin: no devices yet. it was just a system showoff
[23:50] <ThomasCorwin> kil: okay. Thanks.
[23:52] <bobweaver> so mhall119  kinda like this     CmakeList.txt (make sure that the pkg is there) --> File.cpp (file that is working with pkg lib that you told cmake to include)  --> plugin.cpp (expose the File.cpp and export to <qt area>/lib/imports/<PluginName(FileManager)>)  --> FileThingy.qml (In file.qml we import are plugin (import FileManger 1.0)    Now in are qml we can call any of the elemts that are in File.cpp  file File{ Qml goes here })
[23:52] <bobweaver> s|file.qm|FileThingy.qml
[23:53] <bobweaver> so it is like making a custom lib  then make into declaritive view , then use it in your qml stuff
[23:53] <bobweaver> not sure if all the "terms" are right there lol