[00:17] so I've started learning how to program, and I want to do some more. What language is best to learn for making new ubuntu phone apps? [00:18] I heard C ++, is this true? [00:18] qml [00:20] What is qml? [00:21] "QML (Qt Meta Language or Qt Modeling Language[2]) is a JavaScript-based, declarative language for designing user interface–centric applications" [00:23] Is it good? [00:36] It's what Ubuntu Phone uses [00:36] so while, yes, it's a good choice, it's also somewhat your only choice [00:37] If you find jumping straight into QML a little bit scary, perhaps try coding some web pages in JavaScript with XHTML and CSS. That would probably give you a good feel for QML. [00:37] I recommend against learning programming by learning C++. I think languages like JavaScript and Python are a better choice. [00:39] Here is a Qt tutorial: doc.qt.digia.com/qt/qml-tutorial1.html [00:39] it should give you an idea of what QML looks like [00:44] try http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/5.0/qtquick/qtquick-applicationdevelopers.html [00:45] for more about the QML language, see http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/5.0/qtqml/qtqml-index.html [00:46] for more about the QtQuick graphical types, see http://doc-snapshot.qt-project.org/5.0/qtquick/qtquick-index.html === chriadam|away is now known as chriadam [00:46] hey [00:47] any idea if the galaxy nexus image will work on the new nexus 4? [00:50] I wish there was more information on phone app development. [00:50] It seems kind of barren but that's expected without even an image to boot with. [00:52] Rosenzweig, what would help you if you knew ? [00:53] It would help me get started on say... programming an Ubuntu Phone game with OpenGL and C++. [00:53] I saw one tutorial for an "Ubuntu App" with Quickly and another with QML but I'm not sure what the difference is between an Ubuntu App and an Ubuntu Phone App. [00:53] Rosenzweig, You can make any C++ declaritive view and wxspose it to qml [00:54] Rosenzweig: you saw that? http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/app-ecosystem [00:55] Does that mean that Ubuntu Linux executables run natively on the phone? Does that mean that Ubuntu Apps are Python only (and thus don't require compilation)? If they're not then is a phone compiler available for compiled languages? [00:55] It just seems awfully vaue. [00:55] vague* [00:56] I saw the App Ecosystem link, k1l_. [00:56] I actually lurked around the mobile/development place for a bit and I haven't found anything "concrete." [01:04] Rosenzweig, http://doc.qt.digia.com/qt/qml-extending-tutorial-index.html open gl stuff you can use shaders lib [01:04] http://doc.qt.digia.com/qt/declarative-shadereffects.html [01:05] Oh, so C++ in QML is compiled within the QML toolset? [01:06] I was more interested in possibly avoiding QML and instead simply compiling my C++ application with some sort of Ubuntu Phone compiler. I guess the Ubuntu Phone devs want to streamline development into the QT toolsets. [01:07] I got no clue, unfortunately. [01:08] Rosenzweig, you make you backend and stuff like that in c++ (if you choose) then just expose each element and use qml to make the interface [01:09] Ultimately, I would want to do something like that. [01:09] Use QML/Javascript/Python/WhatEver for the UI and gamecode maybe. [01:09] And then have actual low level graphic code in C++. [01:10] Though I was wondering if you had to use the qt window library or if you could use something else... for example. [01:10] Rosenzweig, you have played around with the example "SameGame" ? [01:10] They make it sound like you don't have to. [01:10] Not yet, bobweaver. [01:10] What is it? Or more importantly, where is it? [01:11] qt can call in all sorts of windowing libs and you can also just set cmake to call them in in plugins file [01:11] Rosenzweig, it is a game in qt/qml [01:11] install qtcreator and it is under examples [01:12] Rosenzweig, http://doc.qt.digia.com/qt/qml-advtutorial.html [01:12] I'm assuming this should technically work natively on the Ubuntu Phone too, right [01:13] as far as windowing not yet sure what Ubuntu phone uses but I am sure that that news is going to come soon ! [01:14] Rosenzweig, this is also cool I think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FjuPn7MXMs [01:14] I'm familiar with QT fairly little or any window library in particular. [01:14] My games use very minimal window libraries like gwfl [01:14] gflw [01:15] The most window work I usually do is initialize the window, give it some properties via some few variables, and I attach the OpenGL context. [01:15] So, as you can expect, I'm pretty clueless. [01:16] That's kind of cool. He's in a 3D world and yet he's able to access console and a web page. [01:16] Or not a web page, but some kind of GUI window. [01:16] And QT creator! [01:17] I wouldn't necessarily want to walk around to my windows for day to day use, but that might be interesting for a game. [01:17] Instead of having to create a window library or adding heavy content, you can simply use some of the features of QT. [01:18] yeah there could be better I just like that because it is wayland lol [01:18] Fun stuff, but I hope that more info comes out on the Ubuntu Phone and app development specifically for it. I'm going back to college tomorrow and this would make a good side project. [01:19] QT5_GUI and widgets is that what you are talking about or are you talking about adding header files to plugin then exporting that to make your own qtlib so that you can say like import MyWindowThingy 1.0 [01:20] Interesting. What kind of overhead exists in these plugins? [01:20] Is it particularly resource heavy? [01:21] This just all seems so creative and eye-opening in general. [01:41] Fun stuff, but I hope that more info comes out on the Ubuntu Phone and app development specifically for it. I'm going back to college tomorrow and this would make a good side project. [01:41] these are my plans too [01:41] Transhumanists, what's your major? [01:41] Mine is economics so this is off my studies. [01:41] I'd like to port the current spaced repetition vocabulary learning app I'm working on in Android over to Ubuntu Phone. [01:41] software engineering =P [01:42] Well this is actually related to your major. You know what I do? I study austrian economics. [01:42] But I am minoring in Computational Science next year. [01:42] And this project or what ever project will allow me to skip one or two programming courses. [01:43] they'll give you credit eh? You're lucky [01:43] so have you done linear algebra yet? [01:43] I took Calculus back in high school. [01:43] Yeah, that's important. But linear algebra is unrelated to it. [01:44] I am hoping to take a few math courses in the latter 2-3 years of college. [01:44] Of course I've taken algebra. [01:44] I haven't had anything to do with C++ in about ten years, and I've only slightly played with Qt using Python. I'd like to get a few good books to get me up to date. Any suggestions? [01:44] And linear algebra in particular. [01:44] It isn't a particularly hard subject. [01:45] Hmm, there's this great book on Python that I learned programming with. [01:45] http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ [01:45] I think that was it. [01:45] I enjoyed it. But most people do actually find linear algebra hard. I guess the concept of a vector space is fairly abstract. [01:45] So we can do the grunt work in Python? [01:45] They find vectors difficult? [01:46] Vector Calculus is difficult. [01:46] Vector spaces, not vectors. [01:46] Whoops. :) [01:46] That's not necessarily hard either. [01:47] I used vector spaces all the time in game programming. [01:47] Especially with OpenGL with matrices and all. [01:47] If I have to replace Vala/GTK with something new, it won't be Python, but rather C++. [01:47] Yeah, that gives you a great intuitive feel for linear algebra [01:47] It's easier if you can apply it to something. [01:47] you can do the heavy math with numpy :) [01:47] I loved GLM. [01:47] Greatest OpenGL Math library ever for C++. [01:48] It's just werks. [01:48] humpy is rocking [01:48] *numpy [01:48] It* jo-erlend, in that case. [01:48] I'll happy profess to not being good at C++. I prefer C and Python. [01:48] Rosenzweig? [01:48] I'm grabbing a few books. [01:48] So it's nice to here I can work with QML and Python [01:48] *hear [01:50] Accelerated C++ is great along with Addison Wesley's C++ books, Effective C++ (which gives a good condensed info on C++ for those familiar with C, C++ Primer Plus, and O'Reily probably has a good C++ book. [01:51] Honestly though, there are plenty of online documentation on the language. [01:51] You could probably find all you need just by googling "C++ tutorial" and clicking any link on the front page. [01:52] right. But I like the top-down approach. [01:52] Top down approach? [01:52] I'd just type c++ into Amazon and order the books by user rating [01:52] then read some reviews to see if the people reviewing it are noobs or pros [01:52] I used to be a pro. [01:53] Rosenzweig, I read through the books even if I know the subject. [01:53] But then collee started. [01:53] computer languages are unfortunately like natural languages: use it or lose it [01:53] college* jo-erlend, what do you want then? [01:53] Natural languages are harder in my opinion. [01:53] Speaking of, it's German practice time [01:53] I agree [01:53] My Hebrew is shaky but I learned a lot. [01:54] It's nice motivation when you can look back and say, "I know much more than I did before." [01:57] My problem is I forget how much of a noob I was before, and assume I am still a noob, even when I've become a pro at something. It's good for pushing myself to become an expert in something, but it's bad for motivation, but I don't grant myself any "I'm kind of awesome at this now" moments, and get a little down. [01:57] I guess I'll start by reading up on c++11 and then start investigating QML when I'm comfortable. [01:58] Why C++, jo-erlend, out of curiousity? [01:59] Transhumanist, because of Qt. If it's written in C++ and is object oriented, it'll probably be more comfortable than C. [01:59] Python is pretty snappy these days. Especially since a lot of the libs are already written in C++ (e.g. numpy, SDL). I was recommending it, not C, I guess. [02:00] Python is a very nice language, but it is also very slow and hungry for resources. [02:00] I've written a couple of mobile Python apps [02:00] without issues with performance so far :) [02:00] That's not very true anymore, jo-erlend. [02:00] it really is. And it always will be. [02:00] it depends [02:01] no, it doesn't. [02:01] That's rubbish, jo-erlend, but I'll let you run with it. [02:01] of course doing heavy number crunching in pure Python is stupid [02:02] but there are tons of optimized C&family libraries with Python bindings that can help with just that :) [02:02] Numpy, PIL, etc. [02:02] Even loading the interpreter adds quite a bit of overhead. Particularly to simple applications. [02:03] Yeah, but you're assuming it is user visible overhead. [02:03] it really is. [02:03] Are you using PyPy or C Python? [02:03] the interpreter starts instantly, even on relatively weak mobile devices (N900, Neo Freerunner) [02:03] but even if it's not user visible, it would still require more power from the computer, increasing battery usage. [02:04] for a split second at the start [02:04] you really think that's going to kill the battery? [02:04] provided your application is properly even driven that's not an issue [02:04] *event driven [02:05] I also don't think you understand PyPy, jo-erlend. [02:05] it would be just noise compared to Screen and/or active GPS [02:05] based on the fact that I prefer native, I don'ẗ understand Python? [02:05] Based on your false claims about Python's performance. :) [02:05] Transhumanist: haven't seen PyPy anywhere on mobile devices yet - everything is CPython 2.5-7 [02:05] they are not false. [02:06] BB10 has 3.2 [02:06] M4rtinK: Ubuntu Phone OS isn't exactly a normal mobile device :p [02:07] Transhumanist: well, thanks god it isn't :D [02:07] as most people think mobile device == android == iOS, etc. :) [02:07] lets say "mobile computer" :) [02:09] Do you specifically mean you don't think PyPy has been ported to ARM architectures yet? [02:10] haven't seen it even mentioned on the platforms I'm working on (Maemo 5 & 6, Mer, SHR, Android, BB10) [02:12] Just checked and it has ARM support. [02:12] Implements 2.7.3, though, not 3.2 [02:12] interesting :) [02:12] what about Qt bindings ? [02:13] thats quite the deciding factor :) [02:13] quite [02:15] anyway, time to hit the deck [02:15] night all ! :) [02:15] Considering that QML is written for JavaScript and C++, it seems logical to focus on those languages, I think. [02:15] btw, it's worth pointing out that PyPy can be compiled to asm [02:15] fair enough. This got too heated. Learn a language and make awesome apps! :D [02:16] ra ra ra language wars in 2013 ;-P [02:17] yes, and I don't even understand why. I love Python. It's been my primary language for many years. But it doesn't seem to be a good fit with QML. It might work, and I try very hard not to be a fundamentalist when choosing my tools. [02:19] that is; if I want to develop in QML, and it is designed for JavaScript and C++, then I'd rather use those languages than jumping through hoops in order to use to Python and C. [02:21] Fair enough [02:24] have you seen this site yet, jo-erlend? [02:24] http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/programming-languages/qml/ [02:24] Besides; c++11 seems to have added quite a few things that'll make it more comfortable than it was when I used it. [02:25] Things that make it more comfortable to code in or more powerful to code in? [02:26] more comfort without loss of power, I'd say. [02:29] I'm comparing C++11 to earlier versions of C++, not to other languages. [02:30] yep, gotcha [05:41] hi, whats the news [05:57] The news is: wait for CES [06:06] I'm going to get a galaxy nexeus [06:07] when is the ces? [06:08] tomorrow [06:09] ok [09:40] after announces like the one of Shuttleworth, questions are dozens :) will Ubuntu Phone OS have a personal hardware support ? [09:41] krabador: i dont understand the question [09:43] popey, i mean if ubuntu phone OS devs will work actively on phone hardware Support too [09:44] we're not going to have the capacity to work on every single phone if that's what you're asking [09:45] yes, non every single phone, but for soc families [09:46] not sure. I expect we'll release an image for some flagship phone and the community would fettle it to go on other devices [09:47] I approve this use of "fettle" [09:49] i asking it because communities sometimes have many problems to porting, in equal power too [10:00] some project for use android apps on ubuntu phone os? [10:02] krabador: we're not planning to run Android apps on top of Ubuntu for Phones. [10:05] ok, whats users of mainstream mobile apps, like whatsapp, can expect? [10:09] presumably they can expect "nothing, until the app vendor writes a ubuntu version"? it's not possible to write your own app to interface with whatsapp, and it's unlikely they'll write anything until ubuntu phones have proven themselves [10:10] and I think that's likely to be the case with a lot of apps, particularly messaging and otherwise web-based apps (i.e. any app which interfaces with a service that's not on your device) === chriadam is now known as chriadam|away [10:24] i believe ubuntu phone will be a great sucsess, maybe not immidiatly but, once apps start to come out, yes [10:39] Just a very quick one, I don't want to hold up conversation - when can I expect to be able to get my hands on any release of the ubuntu phone os image to flash to my GNex? [10:40] it was a pretty lively conversation [10:40] I imagine that when this information is available, it will be all over the interwebs [10:41] Sorry, not sure how IRC works, for all I know the conversation was out of my permitted view :) And thanks for the response. I figured this channel would be the first to know, or know something the internet does not. [10:46] wait for the ces tomorrow, that's probably under wraps now [10:48] Will do, thanks for the response and have a nice day :) [10:57] i really hope that you devs spread really soon the phone ranges, for available images [14:53] Is a version of Ubuntu phone for any device ? [15:00] https://www.change.org/petitions/canonical-use-users-of-xda-developers-com-as-testers-for-ubuntu-for-phone#description [15:00] I like how they don't think Ubuntu have their own community :D [15:01] tarelerulz: No images available yet. [15:01] UbuntuBhoy: it's a fair suggestion, dunno why the guy felt the need to make a petition out of it [15:01] I know the phone part ,but could you run it on a Tablet? [15:02] I love that the Android guys are so excited about this [15:02] they don't see it as a threat - they see it as better [15:02] popey: I would think that within the trusted Ubuntu ranks there are plenty of folk who could do the job [15:02] XDA is no longer the XDA of old [15:03] the xda developers would be great to have on board [15:03] they have experience of lots of devices [15:03] you would need to be very select I think [15:03] and are very enthusiastic about getting community stuff working on their devices [15:03] some are [15:03] At the end of the day we all want something useful. I would love to have a full os for my mobile device that ui was made for a mobile. [15:03] you get an awful lot of in fighting now [15:03] UbuntuBhoy: selective like maybe hiring the Cyanogenmod guys? ;) [15:03] does ces start today or tomorrow? [15:03] Transhumanist: not so sure [15:03] they have their own thing# [15:04] -# [15:04] So did the Debian guys before Ubuntu. And the Android guys before Google said hello. ;) [15:04] personally, I can't stand XDA developers much anymore. there's too much "I'm an xda-dev because I took someone elses ROM, removed an .apk, gave it a rubbish name, released it, and dropped it after one release" [15:05] it can be quite a frustrating community nowadays I think [15:05] Yes, it's as immature as the early days of Windows 9x. In all senses. [15:06] There are all ways Toots in ever community. They go on to something else and the real deals stay around [15:06] tarelerulz, whats a Toots? [15:06] Tool sorry [15:07] ah doesnt really matter, missed the whole conversation :/ [15:07] gac: kanging is a big issue now - that's why you get the original dev sections [15:08] XDA seem like site its better for other to link a page in the site then try looking for yourself [15:09] UbuntuBhoy: I haven't looked at the full structure, I just read "Desire Android Development" which is 99% nonsense nowadays :( [15:09] or seems that way to me, anyway [15:10] So where do you find how to dev for the os itself? Not for app or anything like that [15:14] I just find that odd for Android. Its open source ,but as to working on the os , you seem to download , compile and make rom . There is no one place you go I want to learn. I'm sure you guys learn how to dev for Ubuntu at one place [15:14] What OS ? Ubuntu Phone ? [15:15] gac: The Desire section is still the old structure [15:16] since the S2, new phones have had dev split into two [15:16] UbuntuBhoy: fair enough, I've had no need to venture elsewhere, only replaced the desire a week ago :) [15:16] Just saying Android. That is what I find. So , do you all have an Android device? get idea and see what mobile is like ? [15:16] but yeah, now I've just looked in the Nexus 4 bit, I can see what you mean [15:16] I'm sure that'll improve things a lot [15:17] i think ubuntu for android is different than [15:17] ubuntu phone [15:18] can you import your Google contacts for Ubuntu phone? [15:19] tarelerulz: no images have been released yet [15:19] I am sure more info will come out at CES [15:20] Really you guys are not running some pre-release build of it on a mobile device? [15:20] and when the source comes out, you will get to alter it how you wish (keeping within license agreements) [15:20] same as android [15:20] Is these the dev room? [15:21] this I mean [15:21] UbuntuBhoy, when is the presentatio0n and will it be streamed? [15:21] lol, yes, but for the community [15:21] I am not a dev [15:21] Robbilie: don't know if there is a presentation as such [15:22] ah just thought you were :D [15:22] but Canonical have a 'booth' [15:22] No, the folk who are with Ubuntu have proper names [15:22] not like my Fanboi one [15:22] :D [15:22] example? [15:23] not for me to point folk out [15:23] :D [18:22] Can I get some details on mobile segments- smart and entry-level category design? Its Course? [19:17] heads up folks, it looks like the Galaxy Nexus will be available late February [19:18] we appreciate your patience while we get them put together [19:18] ? [19:19] images ? [19:19] got to be [19:20] oh yes, sorry, images for the galaxy nexus [19:20] longer than I thought [19:20] where did you get that from ? [19:20] or are you involved ? [19:20] ubuntubhoy: the team working on making them [19:20] Ahh [19:20] cheers [19:20] ubuntubhoy: not in a technical sense [19:21] still a million times closer than me :D [19:21] mhall119: will source also be released then ? [19:22] you're off by several orders of magnitude [19:22] ubuntubhoy: should be, yes [19:22] K [19:22] ta [19:22] np [19:23] i bet the ubuntu-phone guys would even make images for nexus4 but they are still in backorder :) [19:25] k1l one should hope so... [19:25] i want to buy nexus4 [19:25] well, i got a nexus4. [19:26] what is the price in germany? 299€ or more? [19:26] 299 or 350 + 10 for shipping. [19:27] a lot of money but the specs are really high end... [19:28] yep. but not that much money as other manufactures want for their top-devices. but the GNex is still a good one and very well equipped. and its the dev-phone from ubuntu-one [19:28] mhall119: hope you don't mind me asking, is there a reason for the delay? (making a more complete system image or possible work with partners etc) [19:29] Ubuntu made it to AT&T's slide deck at CES: https://twitter.com/ryanreith/status/288362950148907009/photo/1 [19:29] maybe you can grab a cheaper new gnex or a really cheap used /refurbished gnex [19:29] ubuntubhoy: I don't have details, but I'd imagine they're finishing it off and making sure it's something that can be easily installed [19:29] I don't know what the current process is that they go through to load it onto phones [19:30] K [19:30] thanks again [19:30] would guess it's a fastboot flash of some kind though [19:30] no problem [19:30] interesting, ubuntubhoy is there an ODIN accessible mode on the nexus? [19:30] or are they only accessible by fastboot [19:30] not sure [19:30] only Nexus I had was the N One [19:30] but I would doubt Odin would touch it [19:31] would imagine Google were strict about the way it could be accessed [19:31] so is there a dev team on CES? [19:31] Pulser: what can Odin give that Fastboot can't ? === rsalveti_ is now known as rsalveti [19:33] k1l: there may be some technical people there, but I don't think it's any developers === popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-phone to: Discussion for all things regarding Ubuntu for Phones | This channel is logged to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ | If nobody is here use http://askubuntu.com/questions/tagged/mobile | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPhone | No images available yet, aiming for end of Feb '13 [19:36] mhall119: yes, thought so. just wanted to here how its going at the CES [19:44] It would be fantastic if they could get one of the larger OEM's on board [19:44] someone with respected hardware [19:44] ubuntubhoy: that's why they're at CES :) [19:44] yeah [19:45] quite fancy HTC taking a punt on it [19:45] the way they did with Android [19:46] well, the other mobile OS all have some weak spots. so if ubuntu-phone is clever designed they could make benefit of that [19:49] To be fair so will UOS [19:49] nothing is perfect [19:49] ubuntubhoy: yes of course. nobody is perfect [19:50] i think the apps will be a big issue at starting point. [19:50] not to have apps is a big showstopper for endusers [19:50] very miuch [19:50] much* [19:50] so [19:51] releasing the SDK is a wise move [19:51] they need to get all the social networks tied up as well [19:51] otherwise loads of folk wont go near it [19:52] BB have bean kinda clever with BB10 [19:52] they have been having dev days all over the world [19:52] i got a hp touchpad with webos. webos was quite a good mobile OS but there wasnt even an IRC app o_O (besides the very insane pricing hp did) [19:52] to get apps ready for release [19:52] k1l: no Android on it ? [19:53] ubuntubhoy: of course. but that took some time to develop. [19:53] not too long really [19:53] once the fire sale was done there were loads of devs working on it [19:54] yep, i was in there with all the drama [19:54] I missed out [19:58] hmm k1l I recognise the username [19:58] from touchpad times IIRC [19:59] :) [19:59] hehehe [19:59] how the heck can I remember that [19:59] that's scary lol [19:59] CM Touchpad was from summer 2011? [20:00] we talked some time back then [20:00] ah yes, that's why, I recall it now [20:01] yeah, I like all these "alternate OS" options coming up lately... But I wait with bated breath to see if they will get anywhere tbh [20:01] Firefox OS has been "in the works" for a while and showed promise... they got one thing right by trying to make it "installable" onto regular Android devices [20:01] but it's still nowhere near ready IMO [20:01] whereas ubuntu phone looks to be prrtty interesting :) [20:01] pretty * [20:03] BTG is a mess on a handset [20:03] I tried it and really un-impressed [20:03] ubuntubhoy, indeed lol, though I think they got their attention too early, while it lacked core features [20:03] like "calling" [20:04] yeah [20:04] I built it just before I sold the S2 as you never updated your build on XDA [20:04] aye [20:04] yeah I stopped that as their build system doesn't work on the software I run on the server [20:04] was really underwhelmed [20:05] Ahh [20:05] will let you off then [20:05] btg? [20:05] mmhm [20:05] that said, was easy to set up and build [20:05] k1l, boot2gecko ie. firefox OS [20:05] ahh, ic [20:07] it's been on and off for over a year iirc [20:07] I remember doing builds back about a year back [20:07] and they were utterly unusable, no RIL, no nothing tbh [20:07] BUT A SHINY UI!!!11111!! [20:07] not that shiny [20:07] so really Android has had zero sensible competition for some time [20:07] ubuntubhoy, true dat [20:08] yeah, right now it's still Android FTW [20:08] advantage on ubuntu is, that they actually got experience in running a OS. but the problem is that the mobile business is another issue [20:08] yup [20:08] see, I've spent 4 years basically slap bang in the middle of some parts of it [20:08] Ubuntu has got some things going as an OS [20:08]