[00:24] <snap-l> btw: Meeting tonight at 9pm
[00:25] <snap-l> yes, I know it's during Downton Abbey, but deal
[00:25] <ColonelPanic001> meeting?
[00:25] <snap-l> Monthly IRC meeting
[00:26] <ColonelPanic001> oh, right.
[00:41] <Blazeix> the meeting of the elders of the internet.
[00:53] <rick_h_> snap-l: sure thing
[00:55] <ColonelPanic001> I might be somewhat here. Always meant to stick around for one of those
[00:55] <ColonelPanic001> the meeting, tha tis
[00:55] <snap-l> rick_h_: Cool. Mind if I pick it up at CHC?
[01:09] <rick_h_> snap-l: no, I'll make sure it's inflated. Remind me to bring it
[01:46] <snap-l> cool. thabk you
[01:56] <snap-l> OK, now that I've watched how the aristocracy live, and now have a feeling of what an atom must feel... ;)
[01:57] <snap-l> What say we get this party started in 3 minutes?
[02:00] <Ahuka> Is it time to Immanentize the Eschaton?
[02:00] <snap-l> Um, sure.
[02:01] <snap-l> Welcome to the meeting, everyone.
[02:01] <snap-l> Not a whole lot to talk about, so hopefully we can keep this brief so you Downtoners can Downton with the best of them
[02:01] <snap-l> http://loco.ubuntu.com/meetings/ubuntu-michigan/511/detail/
[02:01] <snap-l> ^ agenda
[02:01] <snap-l> First off, welcome to 2013. :)
[02:02] <snap-l> The only piece I have is the 13.04 release party.
[02:02] <snap-l> I spoke with the Hotel Liaison for Penguicon, and we have secured a location for the release party, so thats' A+
[02:02] <Ahuka> Cool.
[02:02] <snap-l> It'll likely be in the bar, as this time around the bar is large enough to contain around 20 or so folks.
[02:03] <snap-l> so, woo hoo. :)
[02:03] <snap-l> I haven't heard anything about jams for 13.04 as of yet, so once we have a date for that, we can start planning it.
[02:03] <snap-l> I did mention last meeting that it would be cool if we could put together a "Day of service" for Ubuntu
[02:04] <snap-l> Something where we could participate, whether remotely or in person
[02:04] <snap-l> If anyone has some ideas on that, we should collaborate on the mailing list
[02:05] <snap-l> Any questions, or comments?
[02:05] <ColonelPanic001> nein
[02:05] <Ahuka> So the release party will be 4/26/13?
[02:05] <snap-l> That's correct.
[02:05] <snap-l> I put it on the calendar already
[02:06] <waldo323> what type of service would we be looking to do?
[02:06] <snap-l> waldo323: That's entirely up to folks. What I had in mind was something like the jams, where people would come together to do a few hours of something that interests them
[02:06] <snap-l> documentation, bug triage, ask ubuntu foo, packaging, whatever
[02:07] <snap-l> I initially thought it might be cool to do that all online, or perhaps with a small meetup and online.
[02:07] <snap-l> Just something to keep our participation up from a few times a year. :)
[02:08] <waldo323> possibly several groups in different parts of the state at the same time
[02:08] <snap-l> Exactly
[02:08] <ColonelPanic001> I'd probably be in.
[02:08] <snap-l> Something we can do together as a state without having to worry too much about getting everyone together
[02:09] <snap-l> And maybe get some more folks involved throughout the year.
[02:09] <snap-l> That was my vision, anyway.
[02:10] <snap-l> So, give it some thought, if you would, and we can discuss planning at the next meeting
[02:11] <snap-l> Anything else to discuss?
[02:11] <snap-l> Comments, questions, observations?
[02:11] <jjesse> besides me being late :)
[02:12] <snap-l> Rude gestures? :)
[02:12] <waldo323> give out beer with a cd?
[02:12] <jhansonxi> Make our own Ubuntu - Michibuntu!
[02:13] <snap-l> waldo323: Is that a rude gesture? Because I don't see it. :)
[02:13] <waldo323> haha
[02:13] <jhansonxi> Yoopers can make their own
[02:13] <snap-l> One last thing: if someone would like to take on putting together the team reports, I'd be much obliged.
[02:13] <snap-l> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichiganTeam/TeamReports/
[02:14] <snap-l> Frankly, I don't like them, so if someone would like to take on that responsibility of keeping them current, I'd be a very happy man
[02:15] <snap-l> If you're interested (and who wouldn't be) feel free to go ahead and update them.
[02:15] <snap-l> if you have any questions, let me know. :)
[02:17] <snap-l> and if you want to update them, but don't have access, please let us know. I think I can give write authority.
[02:17] <snap-l> Anything else?
[02:17] <waldo323> can they be at least partly automatically updated?
[02:17] <snap-l> waldo323: I wish
[02:18] <jhansonxi> What does the "Coffee House Coders" actually do?
[02:18] <snap-l> We get together and talk programming  and code on projects
[02:19] <waldo323> weekly destressing time for some of us
[02:19] <snap-l> It became a partnership between the groups
[02:19] <snap-l> waldo323: You need a hyphen in there, otherwise it looks like a distressing typo. ;)
[02:20] <waldo323> :) true,   de-stressing time
[02:21] <jhansonxi> Just out of curiosity, what are the Loco teams supposed to do?
[02:21] <Ahuka> Take voer the world.
[02:21] <jhansonxi> Is Ohio the next target?
[02:22] <Ahuka> Always.
[02:22] <snap-l> jhansonxi: Outreach, act as points of contact for the community
[02:22] <snap-l> facilitate interested folks into becoming more active.
[02:22] <jhansonxi> snap-l: Sounds like more free tech support
[02:23] <snap-l> jhansonxi: Welcome to OPen Source Software. ;)
[02:23] <waldo323> for each other as much as for newcomers
[02:23] <snap-l> jhansonxi: Though it's less sinister than you might imagine
[02:23] <jhansonxi> I was doing that when I was on Windows anyways
[02:23] <snap-l> For me, it's something that I'd do anyway. I like helping people as much as I can
[02:24] <jhansonxi> Is this supposed to be Ubuntu-specific?  I switched to Xfce on Linux Mint because of Unity
[02:25] <snap-l> jhansonxi: I won't hold it against you. ;)
[02:26] <snap-l> The primary focus is Ubuntu, but we won't kick you out or yell if you're not using Ubuntu at all times.
[02:26] <jjesse> they let me in :)
[02:26] <snap-l> I mean, we even let KDE folks in here.
[02:26] <waldo323> and commandline folks
[02:26] <jhansonxi> It just seems like most of the Linux/Ubuntu market forces are out of our hands.  Steam will probably have more of an impact on adoption than a Loco.
[02:27] <snap-l> jhansonxi: There's still a purpose for local folks.
[02:28] <jhansonxi> I'm near Alpena so I'm not exactly "local"
[02:28] <snap-l> After all, you wouldn't want to drink from the firehose of #ubuntu on a day to day basis
[02:28] <snap-l> That's OK.
[02:28] <snap-l> You're still in Michigan
[02:29] <jhansonxi> That's what they say about Yoopers but I never believed that :D
[02:29] <jjesse> jhansonxi, brousch  and i are are from Grand Rapids
[02:29] <jjesse> so we all aren't from detroit area
[02:31] <jhansonxi> It just seems like a MI-specific Ubuntu LUG is rather limited in what it can accomplish.  I'm not sure the "total is greater than the sum of its parts".  IRC is nice but Google searches answer most of my tech questions.
[02:32] <snap-l> jhansonxi: We also have some Canonical employees in channel
[02:32] <snap-l> They happen to be local.
[02:33] <snap-l> Some of whom became Canonical Employees because they participated in events (and were super-awesome to boot, but I'm selling the loco here)
[02:33] <snap-l> I used to think that LUGs and Locos were pretty silly, but there's more to it than just free tech support
[02:33] <snap-l> We're friends here.
[02:33] <Wolfger> I'm late for the meeting, aren't I?
[02:34] <rick_h_> meh, loco isn't tech support. It's community. Sure it can be some local help, but more often just a chance to chat. Liked minded individuals and all that. We can do some advocacy, provide a lodestone for new ubuntu users
[02:34] <snap-l> Wolfger: Not too late for the nomination to do grunt work part. :)
[02:34] <jjesse> +1 to rick_h_
[02:34] <jjesse> i think we are all friends here
[02:34] <snap-l> Yeah, that's just on the surface.
[02:35] <snap-l> As always, rick_h_ explains it better than I can. :)
[02:35] <rick_h_> it'd be great to do some larger scale projects in that advocacy area, but requires effort which we've been thin on
[02:36] <snap-l> Well, we did some at Ohio Linuxfest with the Ohio Loco
[02:36] <jhansonxi> rich_h_: I could see that if it was MI-specific but not many n00bs or potential n00bs are going to show up on a small IRC channel.  It would be more effective to visit potential groups of users like schools, youth groups, etc.
[02:37] <snap-l> jhansonxi: If you're interested in setting something like that up, I'm sure there's some interest.
[02:37] <rick_h_> jhansonxi: sure, but you'd be surprised at people that just show up in irc :)
[02:37] <rick_h_> but true, that's what I mean. It'd be great to have some people lead some larger scale projects
[02:38] <Wolfger> Like active participation in Bug Jams? :-p
[02:38] <rick_h_> things like classes/workshops/community activities would be great
[02:38] <jhansonxi> snap-l: I'm rather isolated.  I've encountered maybe 3 people outside my client base who even know what Ubuntu/Linux is.
[02:38] <rick_h_> Wolfger: :P
[02:38] <rick_h_> jhansonxi: awesome, good to hear. We can all relate to that kind of work as we're doing the same
[02:39] <rick_h_> but that's what I mean, the loco doesn't have to be about a report card on how many people you handed an ubuntu cd to today
[02:39] <jhansonxi> Wolfger: I refuse to dirty myself triaging bugs that will get less developer attention than my own rather lonely submissions.
[02:40] <Wolfger> lol
[02:40] <Wolfger> yes, I eventually came to the same disillusioned conclusion
[02:41] <jhansonxi> I feel that submitting bug reports is just signing up for more "have you tried this in the latest release yet?" spam.
[02:42] <rick_h_> heh, jhansonxi you run an OSS project? It's a bit different on the other side /me looks at bookie bug report db in shame
[02:42] <jhansonxi> I've even included sample scripts in bug reports that ended with: && echo "YES THE DAMN THING IS STILL BROKE!"
[02:42] <Wolfger> RFOL
[02:42] <Wolfger> ROFL even
[02:43] <Wolfger> ok, I'm out again. Shameful, but at least I showed up at all this meeting.
[02:43] <snap-l> I'm going to call the meeting done (not to kill the conversation)
[02:43] <snap-l> so, thank you all for coming!
[02:44] <snap-l> I'm of a mind that the locos are about not waiting for someone else to do something
[02:44] <snap-l> If you want to make something happen, you have a built-in group of people who will listen
[02:45] <jhansonxi> snap-l: We need to expand the user base so there are more fanatical slaves available.
[02:45] <snap-l> jhansonxi: That takes time.
[02:46] <jhansonxi> yep
[02:46] <snap-l> Nobody ever got converted from a religious tract. ;)
[02:48] <jhansonxi> snap-l: Religions tend to turn into social clubs when they lack direction.  I don't want my deployments becoming "that other drive partition that never gets used".
[02:48] <jhansonxi> Many of my clients are gamers which doesn't help my retention rate.
[02:49] <snap-l> It should be getting better with the HUmble Bundles
[02:49] <snap-l> especially if they're indie gamers.
[02:49] <snap-l> And Crossover is pretty damn good
[02:49] <jhansonxi> Most are looking for current AAA titles.  Wine is a crap-shoot at best.
[02:50] <snap-l> jhansonxi: Agreed. But when it works, it's quite nice.
[02:50] <jhansonxi> "Works" depends on version and game.  Often a Wine update fixes one game but breaks others on the same system.
[02:51] <snap-l> And I can honestly say Linux Gaming has never looked better, even when Loki was in it's heyday.
[02:52] <jhansonxi> Yes, and Kickstarter projects also help but many are months away.  There will be new consoles this year and unless Valve's box succeeds wildly they will probably hurt Linux gaming more than they help.
[02:53] <snap-l> jhansonxi: Any attention Valve can bring is a plus
[02:53] <snap-l> if Valve suddenly said Linux sucks, it's no worse than Loki's implosion
[02:54] <jhansonxi> snap-l: Linux probably owes more to the Win8 dev team than anyone else for the gaming improvement.
[02:54] <snap-l> Humble Bundle
[02:55] <snap-l> It proved that Linux folks will pay 4x as much as Windows folks for titles they probably haven't even played.
[02:55] <snap-l> Windows folks are spoiled for choices.
[02:55] <snap-l> Every game under Linux is a gift.
[02:55] <jhansonxi> snap-l: Nice but mostly older and lesser-known titles.  The KS campaigns will be new.
[02:55] <snap-l> You couldn't ask for a better market
[02:56] <snap-l> Kickstarter campaigns are only good to a point
[02:56] <jhansonxi> The mobile shift is helping, sort of.
[02:56] <snap-l> they select those folks who are already fans of whatever the campaign
[02:56] <snap-l> Mobile doesn't do anything for desktop adoption
[02:57] <snap-l> All Mobile does is get developers to think about targeting other platforms.
[02:57] <jhansonxi> Win8 doesn't either.  I'm concerned about winning a dead market.
[02:57] <snap-l> Who cares?
[02:58] <snap-l> Windows 8 is going to kill the desktop market the same way the PC killed the mainframe market
[02:58] <snap-l> it just becomes a different market
[02:59] <jhansonxi> We seem to be depending heavily on a single potential console (Valve's) for promoting AAA Linux-compatible games if the desktop market dies but I can't see any way out of it.
[03:00] <snap-l> There is the Ubuntu Software store as well
[03:01] <snap-l> Valve may bring some credibility, but ultimately it's up to the developers and publishers to decide if it's worth targeting another platform
[03:01] <jhansonxi> Desktop or moble only.  If desktop gaming dies then the Ubuntu Store will be competing with Android, etc.
[03:02] <snap-l> And it's up to the Linux folks to ensure it's worthwhile.
[03:02] <snap-l> Desktop gamingis on the chopping block as much as console gaming
[03:02] <jhansonxi> Yes, the devs matter but at this point it looks more like anti-Win8 (and the flat PC market) than pro-Linux.  Only time will tell.
[03:03] <snap-l> Abolutes help no-one. Markets are opportunities
[03:03] <snap-l> and adding a robust Linux gaming market to a developer's bottom line only encourages them to continue
[03:04] <jhansonxi> I agree.  Anyways, I have to get back to my scripting around apt's lame mirror fail-over support.
[03:04] <snap-l> That's what the Humble Bundles have taught us.
[03:04] <snap-l> Laterness.
[03:21] <greg-g> brousch: CC
[03:22] <brousch> greg-g: Would you want to do a remote talk or Q&A for GRWebDev?
[03:23] <brousch> We're having a meeting about open source licensing, philosophy, etc
[03:25] <brousch> Oh crap, I missed the meeting?
[03:25] <brousch> The ubuntu-mi meeting?
[03:26] <greg-g> sure, what time of day/day of week and how long?
[03:31] <brousch> It would be Monday, Jan 28, for probably 20-30mins between 6PM and 8PM Michigan time
[03:36] <brousch> Bedtime. I'll email you tomorrow
[03:37] <greg-g> k, brousch greg@creativecommons.org :)
[12:07] <rick_h_> morning
[13:00] <snap-l> Chrome apparently just lost all of my passwords.
[13:01] <snap-l> What. The. Fuck.
[13:01] <snap-l> Also, tried moving the .config file for Google Chrome, but apparently there's a file I can't delete.
[13:01] <snap-l> Computers suck.
[13:01] <rick_h_> lesson learned
[13:04] <snap-l> OK, something is really, really wrong
[13:06] <snap-l> Oh, this is such bullshit
[13:09] <snap-l> Well, the fun thing is my passwords are still apparently on Google Dashboard
[13:09] <snap-l> they're just not in this browser
[13:09] <rick_h_> sync disable?
[13:09] <snap-l> because God forbid they sync down to my browser
[13:10] <snap-l> sync everything, and it's still munged
[13:10] <snap-l> If this is the case, I'm deleting my Google data and starting over.
[13:10] <snap-l> Going to check it at work.
[13:10] <snap-l> FJUHUUJU&UUYYUYUU&CU&ZXDf.n ,zxdsF[b.ZSD CJ: hkaSD FEk;uSefdCV
[13:11] <snap-l> Well, what was supposed to be a little productive interlude turned into getting fucked by computers
[13:19] <snap-l> And now sync is busted
[13:20] <snap-l> bookmarks are OK, but the rest of my extensions aren't getting downloaded
[13:20] <snap-l> of course Chrome doesn't tell you that, it just lets you guess
[13:21] <snap-l> Fuck magic
[13:22] <brousch> Did you try uninstalling it, deleting your config, and re-installing?
[13:26] <snap-l> Ah, it appears to be working now
[13:26] <snap-l> though my proxy extension is missing
[13:26] <snap-l> Strange. I've been using it for a while now
[13:28] <snap-l> Hm, oh well. Wonder what'll happen at work. ;)
[14:41] <snap-l> Nice. Apparently one of the extensions I was using is completely gone
[14:41] <snap-l> author must've deleted it
[14:42] <snap-l> Most of the other proxy switchers are pretty shit, imho
[15:33] <snap-l> Reminder: MUG tomorrow
[15:33] <snap-l> http://mug.org/meetings
[15:33] <snap-l> Also, be sure to add the calendar feed to your calendar:
[15:33] <snap-l> http://www.mug.org/?page=CiviCRM&q=civicrm/event/ical&reset=1&list=1
[16:30] <snap-l> "If there’s such a thing as cheating to get better performance, we want to cheat as much as possible. " - Pyramid docs
[16:30] <snap-l> http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid/en/1.0-branch/designdefense.html#pyramid-cheats-to-obtain-speed
[16:31] <rick_h_> " As an amelioration, we've commented these sections liberally."
[16:31] <rick_h_> that's the key part of that paragraph
[16:32] <snap-l> Yeah, I know. I just liked the "If that's cheating, then so be it" mentality.
[16:32] <snap-l> as if droppping to C in python is somehow cheating
[16:33] <brousch> It is annoying
[16:33] <snap-l> Got into a rabbit-trail looking at pylons controllers and Bookie
[16:33] <snap-l> And the lack of a "controllers" directory.
[16:33] <brousch> Pure Python is easier to use on weird platforms, like Android
[16:33] <rick_h_> pyramid views == controllers
[16:33] <snap-l> rick_h_: Yeah, learning that.
[16:34] <snap-l> brousch: I agree, to a point
[16:34] <snap-l> There should be a way to turn off C extensions should you want to use pure python
[16:34] <snap-l> But that also introduces two code bases
[16:34] <rick_h_> it's called pypy :P
[16:34] <brousch> I would like to see people default to pure Python, optimize with C, but if C isn't available at runtime, then use the pure Python version
[16:35] <snap-l> rick_h_: It's called Java. :-p
[16:35] <rick_h_> have fun with that
[16:35] <snap-l> We've secretly replaced rick_h_'s Python with jpython. Let's see if he notices.
[17:25] <greg-g> ok, linux geekers, how do I stop/restart my printer daemon?
[17:26] <snap-l> greg-g: Under Ubuntu?
[17:26] <rick_h_> sudo service cupsd restart?
[17:27] <rick_h_> sorry, just cups
[17:28] <greg-g> oh right, service
[17:28] <greg-g> upstart fun stuff
[17:28] <snap-l> Yeah, stop using /etc/rc...
[17:28] <snap-l> or even /etc/init.d/...
[17:28] <greg-g> service can do that, too, and is the preferred way in Ubuntu-land right?
[17:28] <snap-l> That is a path to suffering
[17:29] <snap-l> yep
[17:29] <rick_h_> yea, I still end up doing both
[17:29] <greg-g> oh, you mean, "greg, you stop doing this" not "you can stop it by..."
[17:29] <snap-l> yes. ;)
[17:29] <greg-g> :)
[17:30] <greg-g> gah, it didn't solve my problem, I'm getting notifications of the printer trying to connect, thenf ailing, then trying again, then failing, then... .then....
[17:30] <greg-g> can't remove the printer from the gnome-settings UI (it has that option, it just isn't working)
[17:30] <rick_h_> greg-g: find the cups ui itself and try it there. second
[17:30] <rick_h_> http://localhost:631/
[17:31] <rick_h_> why I hate this stuff, just wrapping the real sources anyway :/
[17:31] <greg-g> huh
[17:31] <greg-g> that worked
[17:31] <rick_h_> :)
[17:31] <greg-g> thanks! :)
[17:31] <snap-l> You might want to make sure GNOME caught up
[17:31] <rick_h_> always find the source ftw
[17:32] <snap-l> Otherwise you might find your printers are terminally out of sync. ;)
[17:32] <greg-g> no more notifications.... I'm happy, screw printing ;)
[17:32]  * snap-l doesn't have his work printers set up. ;)
[17:32] <rick_h_> lol
[17:32] <rick_h_> snap-l: ugh, I used to print from windows VM
[17:33] <snap-l> rick_h_: I've gone a year without having printers set up even in the VM
[17:33] <snap-l> I tried once, and gave up
[17:34] <rick_h_> snap-l: yea, was a pita. I ended up setting up the driver with direct ip/etc.
[17:36] <snap-l> Honestly, I'll send you a PDF quicker than I'll trundle down a pad of paper.
[17:38] <greg-g> I, unfortunately, need to sign something, bugger
[17:38] <snap-l> greg-g: That's what Xournal and a wacom pad are good for handling
[17:39]  * snap-l has signed many a document that way.
[17:39] <snap-l> They're not terribly good for big forms, though
[17:42]  * greg-g has no input device of that sort
[17:42] <snap-l> I'd highly recommend picking one up
[17:43] <rick_h_> meh, just print and sign it and put it in the mail
[17:43] <rick_h_> still works
[17:43] <greg-g> still gotta print
[18:08] <smoser> jcastro, i was confused by your "hulu and roku" comments.
[18:09] <smoser> i cant seem to figure out how roku uses hulu unless you have hulu plus
[18:09] <smoser> (trying my free hulu account on roku says something like "not enabled for plus")
[18:09] <snap-l> afaik, nothing outside of the site can use Hulu without plus
[18:09] <snap-l> Would love to be proven wrong.
[18:09] <smoser> (well, plex has some scrapers)
[18:10] <snap-l> I find it pretty ridiculous, regardless
[18:10] <smoser> true
[18:10] <smoser> (plex scrapers only work on windows, as they require silverlight)
[18:10] <snap-l> I'm not paying for someone to ship me ads with content. That's what Cable became
[19:51] <jcastro> what the hell
[19:51] <jcastro> it's not 3 oclock already
[19:52] <greg-g> nope, just 11:52
[19:56] <brousch> Feels like nap time
[19:56] <greg-g> sounds good to me
[20:53] <Blazeix> widox: i'm going to try to make the mongodb conference before the github drinkup, you thinking you'll be there too?
[21:48] <widox> Blazeix: cool. I'm on the fence, might be intersting to check out
[23:59] <rick_h_> kind of cool https://github.com/mitechie?tab=contributions&period=monthly