[06:13] <pitti> Good morning
[07:42] <jibel> good morning
[07:44] <pitti> Bonjour jibel, comment vas-tu?
[07:44] <jibel> Bonjour pitti , ça va et toi ?
[07:44] <pitti> ça va bien, merci
[07:46] <pitti> jibel: le premiér Taekwondo hier était dur :)
[07:50] <jibel> pitti, Aïe aïe! Stop for 2 weeks, train for 2 months
[08:38] <zyga> good morning
[08:44] <Noskcaj> evening zyga
[13:01] <pitti> jibel: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Raring/view/JHBuild%20Gnome/ is already with --check, right?
[13:02] <jibel> pitti, right, do you prefer to run with build only first ?
[13:03] <pitti> jibel: no, I just wanted to confirm
[13:04] <pitti> jibel: what triggers them at the moment?
[13:07] <jibel> pitti, revision numbers are checked every 15 min and jobs are triggered if it changed or if it's a new packag
[13:07] <jibel> e
[13:07] <pitti> jibel: hm, odd; https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Raring/view/JHBuild%20Gnome/job/jhbuild-amd64-gvfs/ hasn't been updated since Dec 28
[13:08] <jibel> pitti, let me look
[13:14] <jibel> pitti, last commit was 11days ago according to git which corresponds to last run, do I miss something?
[13:17] <jibel> oh, I disabled rebuild on dependency changes for the moment as it was rebuilding everything again and again and wanted to improve that behavior but didn't have time yet.
[13:19] <jibel> so currently if a failure is caused by a dependency and a new version of the dependency has been uploaded then packages that depend on it are not rebuilt
[13:39] <pitti> jibel: argh, sorry, was mixing this up with another module
[13:41] <cprofitt> does anyone know if Ubuntu Friendly is still an active project?
[13:42] <zyga> cprofitt: I think it is
[13:42] <zyga> cprofitt: ara knows best I think
[13:42] <cprofitt> thanks zyga
[13:42] <cprofitt> I am trying to figure out why submissions I have made are not showing up... so I can correct the issue (making the assumption that the error is on my end)
[13:43] <cprofitt> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu-friendly/+question/216241
[13:43] <ara> cprofitt, it is still active, in the sense that it is working, but not active in the sense of maintained
[13:43] <cprofitt> I asked the question, but got no response so was not sure if it was active any more
[13:43]  * cprofitt nods
[13:43] <cprofitt> thanks ara
[13:44] <ara> cprofitt, actually, I wanted to start in 2013 a call for maintainers
[13:44] <zyga> ara: hmm
[13:44] <zyga> ara: I'm up
[13:44] <ara> zyga, as a community project
[13:44] <cprofitt> ara perhaps we can work together on that... I may not have the technical skills but would be willing to try
[13:44] <cprofitt> and I can definately blog about it - and the need
[13:44] <zyga> ara: the goal is very useful to the community, it just needs some implementation and ease of use
[13:44] <cprofitt> +1 zyga
[13:45] <zyga> cprofitt: sure, that sounds good
[13:45] <zyga> ara: is friendly source code on launchpad?
[13:46] <ara> yes, ubuntu-friendly is the project, and launchpad-results to store results
[13:49] <zyga> cprofitt: what would you like to accomplish with ubuntu friendly?
[13:49] <jibel> pitti, no problem, anyway result is the same after a rebuild with all the deps https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Raring/view/JHBuild%20Gnome/job/jhbuild-amd64-gvfs/7/artifact/gvfs.log
[13:49] <cprofitt> zyga: well... in the end have a lot of models listed...
[13:49] <cprofitt> from my perspective to make it more friendly I would like to see some sort of notification go to the user who submitted the results if the results will not be used
[13:50] <cprofitt> that way they know that the results were not just 'lost'
[13:51] <cprofitt> I know how to find my results after doing some research, but I still am not sure if or why they are not available
[13:51] <cprofitt> so better feedback to the users making submissions would be the key thing I would like to see
[13:52] <zyga> I think that automated submissions are a pain, it'd be much better to start off with something that takes 2-3 minutes to finish (start friendly client, gather hardware profile, send to friendly with possible user comments and several check-boxes for common issues)
[13:53] <zyga> (I mean the full checkbox client, asking users to do long, mudane testing)
[13:53] <cprofitt> Hmm... perhaps a 'quick submission' and then a 'full submission'?
[13:53] <cprofitt> I think there is value to the complete submission
[13:54] <zyga> sure there is but I'd rather have 10x the number of "this laptop feels okay to me" submissions than the current number of detailed but hard-to-quantify datasets
[13:54] <zyga> and that does not need any actual testing
[13:55] <zyga> friendly could start two weeks after installation
[13:55] <zyga> and ask the user for some (optionally anonymous) feedback on their hardware
[13:55] <zyga> just a few things, something that everyone would complete without difficulty or effort
[13:56] <cprofitt> I would like to gather metrics on how many submissions have been made vs. how many have been approved
[13:56] <cprofitt> it would be interesting to know if the issue is that the process is too long or that we have a large number of rejected submissions
[13:56] <zyga> Simple screen, a few items to confirm ("suspend generally works", "wifi works", etc), some simple pictures for oveal feeling (utter rubbish, okay but with problems and tinkering, good out of the box, flawless, etc)
[13:56] <cprofitt> I do agree the goal would be to get more results in the results available to others
[13:57] <zyga> cprofitt: once you have >N submissions for similar hardware you can just display that
[13:57] <zyga> cprofitt: and say, white-list some comments if we ever display them
[13:57] <zyga> cprofitt: with possible link to ubuntu forums (it'd be neat if we could generate links for particular hardware types)
[13:57] <zyga> cprofitt: where users can sign up and talk on a already moderated forum
[13:58] <cprofitt> hmm...
[13:58] <zyga> cprofitt: I think that the current process is much too formal, it does not appeal to typical users
[13:58] <cprofitt> that is a good idea -- what about linking to askbuntu 'tag' as well?
[13:58] <zyga> perfect I think
[13:58] <zyga> I don't use either askubuntu or forums actively
[13:59] <zyga> but the idea of connecting users that have the same hardware is powerful
[13:59] <zyga> it just needs to be executed right
[13:59] <zyga> good stuff will happen there, friendly will just be the conduit
[14:01] <zyga> cprofitt: the separate thing is pre-shopping/purchase search
[14:01] <zyga> cprofitt: friendly should appeal to such users as well but it's harder to execute
[14:01] <zyga> cprofitt: as users have little understanding that the device name is nearly worthless
[14:02] <zyga> cprofitt: and thus a piece of hardware called "foo" can range from supported to unsupported, low to high-end, amd or intel with random soup of internal components (wifi, gpu) that cause problems
[14:02] <zyga> cprofitt: without a good idea on how to solve that I think this is a lost cause
[14:02] <cprofitt> I agree... that is why I like the in-depth testing
[14:03] <zyga> cprofitt: how is that getting people to know if a given device in the store is ubuntu friendly?
[14:03] <cprofitt> because it will detail the internal components that can change within the same model
[14:03] <cprofitt> Lenovo T530s for example have several actual models
[14:03] <zyga> cprofitt: yeah but those components are not displayed on the box
[14:03] <cprofitt> including a CTO that is custom selected components
[14:04] <cprofitt> I would not want to have results so generic that someone thinks model X would work... they go buy it... and then it does not work
[14:04] <zyga> cprofitt: frankly I don't know what the solution for this problem is, I don't know of anything that would allow you to get some estimate that hardware X will work, beyond the high-end professional devices that sometimes have less variablility in them
[14:05] <zyga> cprofitt: one might toy with a boot-n-see approach but shopping malls don't allow one to do that
[14:05] <cprofitt> some of the high-end professional deveice have much more variation than the low end stuff
[14:05] <cprofitt> my local computer shops allow a USB boot
[14:05] <cprofitt> but I think Ubuntu Friendly should be able to be a good guide.
[14:05] <zyga> cprofitt: it would be interesting to see purchase trends
[14:06] <zyga> cprofitt: then there is desktop vs laptop which some people might use ubuntu friendly for (to pick components)
[14:06] <cprofitt> I agree we need to tweak the process for submissions... I will look at the way things are displayed as well.
[14:06] <zyga> cprofitt: cool
[14:06] <cprofitt> Perhaps we should have a survey about what others find good/bad about both parts
[14:06] <cprofitt> you and I may not represent a broad enough perspective
[14:06] <zyga> cprofitt: who would you survey?
[14:06] <zyga> cprofitt: I agree
[14:07] <zyga> cprofitt: I suspect that there are broad differences in some regions
[14:07] <cprofitt> we could blog about it... link from Ubuntu Friendly etc
[14:07] <zyga> cprofitt: (south america, india)
[14:07] <zyga> cprofitt: that sounds good, I think it's worth blogging to start a discussion and get some extra points of view
[14:07] <cprofitt> we could then include that region information in the survey
[14:07] <zyga> cprofitt: yeah
[14:08] <zyga> cprofitt: or even link region and sale date and tell people that opt in that somoene in their vicinity got a ubuntu laptop they can recommend :)
[14:08] <cprofitt> I will try to get a blog post out tonight
[14:08] <cprofitt> ara is that ok?
[14:08] <zyga> (let's not get ahead of ourselves)
[14:08] <cprofitt> I do not want to step on any plans you have
[14:08] <zyga> cprofitt: I think that it's worth talking to more people to get some perspective and understand if the issues with current ubuntu friendly that they see map to what we've discussed
[14:08] <ara> cprofitt, zyga: what's the summary?
[14:10] <zyga> ara: I think that friendly needs a reboot to realistically help users, we'd like to scope the community for input and present some ideas to them (stuff we've discussed here, among others simple submissions, facilitating discussions on the ubuntu forum/ask ubuntu and localizing the data so people see results relevant to where they live)
[14:10] <zyga> cprofitt: what did I miss?
[14:11] <zyga> ara: also, discuss how laptop (unitary) vs desktop (parts) problem should be (if at all) handled
[14:11] <cprofitt> ara - we would like to blog about making Ubuntu Friendly a community project that slowly moves towards improving the usability of both the submission of results and the overall quality of the results people can search
[14:11] <zyga> since laptops make the most sales in PC for some time now I'd totally skip prebuilt PCs
[14:12] <cprofitt> in the short term I think we might like to put together a survey to get more information from people who use Ubuntu friendly
[14:12] <cprofitt> to see what needs to be improved from a data driven perspective
[14:12] <zyga> cprofitt: I think we won't get that -- they don't read our blogs
[14:12] <zyga> cprofitt: we'll get feedback from other hackers on their (regional) view on this
[14:12] <cprofitt> zyga: I am on planet so it sholuld get read
[14:13] <cprofitt> we can also ensure that some information gets out with UWN
[14:13] <zyga> cprofitt: people that read planet.*.* are hardly the audience for friendly :)
[14:13] <cprofitt> true, but their opinions are not invalid
[14:13] <zyga> cprofitt: I agree
[14:18] <zyga> cr3: hey, long time no see!
[14:18] <cr3> zyga: hey dude, been visiting family in another timezone, so not much overlap. how were the holidays?
[14:19] <zyga> cr3: very long! I got so lazy I'm glad to be working again
[14:19] <ara> zyga, cprofitt: but, who would implement those ideas?
[14:20] <zyga> ara: who knows, maybe there's an eager soul out there that just wants to help and looks for a project
[14:20] <zyga> ara: that's how I started with ubuntu years ago
[14:20] <zyga> ara: we need visibility to hackers!
[14:20] <zyga> ara: all that we do in our day jobs makes that easier
[14:21] <cr3> zyga: I'm always afraid to forget how to type but it's like riding a bike
[14:21] <zyga> cr3: would you believe I never had a bike or learned to ride one?
[14:21] <roadmr> klqweuasd qwehasd qwewh
[14:21] <cr3> zyga: ironically, I rode a bike for the first time in many years during the holidays and it too is like riding a bike
[14:21] <zyga> cr3: (well I did learn but my total hours on a bike are less than 24 probably)
[14:22] <cr3> zyga: that's certainly uncommon, which reminds me that I met a few people that couldn't swim during the holidays
[14:22] <zyga> cr3: not everyone lives near bodies of water sufficient to foste that
[14:22] <zyga> cr3: bikes are arguably more common :)
[14:22] <cr3> roadmr: drinking and typing will cause that
[14:23] <patdk-wk> heh, like my dad?
[14:23] <zyga> roadmr: your klingon is getting better
[14:23] <patdk-wk> he had never seen water
[14:23] <roadmr> cr3: qweasd gfhljk zcx pouq rt
[14:23] <patdk-wk> joined the navy
[14:23] <patdk-wk> and after weeks, finally past the required floating requrement
[14:23]  * zyga reads unittest/runner.py
[14:24] <zyga> cr3: are you working with python in your day job?
[14:25] <cr3> roadmr: a monkey poured coffee in my boots (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuOvqeABHvQ&t=6m45s)
[14:25] <cr3> zyga: very little but I can't say the other languages I use :)
[14:26] <zyga> cr3: heh, ok
[14:26] <roadmr> awesome!
[14:26] <roadmr> he's using Java! can't say out of shame!!!
[14:26] <cr3> roadmr: that's how you sound to me :)
[14:26] <zyga> hahaha
[14:27] <cr3> roadmr: I was expecting a microsoft related joke but java is pretty low too :)
[14:27] <cr3> roadmr: you'll be pleased to know that windows 8 has made a few more microsoft haters around me
[14:27] <roadmr> cr3: here's a microsoft related joke: "microsoft"
[14:28] <zyga> cr3: are you using win8 at work yourself?
[14:28] <roadmr> cr3: hehe, but they'll eventually adjust. People adjusted to the ribbon after all...
[14:29] <cr3> zyga: nobody is, windows 8 came up following the holidays where geeks see their families to troubleshoot computer problems. isn't that how it works for you?
[14:29]  * zyga sees how test runner invokes test cases
[14:29] <cr3> "you're into computers, can you fix mine?"
[14:29] <zyga> cr3: my family is too remote to do that now
[14:29] <cr3> zyga: that's why you moved?
[14:29] <zyga> hahaha
[14:29] <zyga> no :-)
[14:30] <cr3> zyga: that's alright, you can tell us, we won't tell anyone in this public channel :)
[14:31] <roadmr> install Ubuntu - "there, I fixed it"
[14:31] <roadmr> what, you can read email and watch gangnam on Ubuntu, what more can you possibly want?
[14:33] <dkessel> roadmr, don't forget angry birds :)
[14:33] <roadmr> dkessel: oh true... I guess my parents don't do that, that's why I don't consider it
[14:33] <zyga> roadmr: you only need to show them ;)
[14:33] <dkessel> lol
[14:34] <roadmr> zyga: noo :D
[14:34] <zyga> (sound of stretching rope, yes!)
[14:34] <zyga> man, python unit test internals are insane
[14:37] <zyga> aaah
[14:37] <zyga> so that's how it works
[15:41] <cprofitt> zyga: sorry I got pulled away
[15:43] <zyga> cprofitt: same here, looking at some netboot stuff
[16:08] <zyga> cprofitt: so for that blog message, I think it'd be nice to write something
[16:08] <zyga> cprofitt: do you think we should just both write about that?
[16:10] <cprofitt> Yes, I think we should both blog about it
[16:10] <cprofitt> the more people blogging the better IMHO
[16:11] <zyga> I agree
[16:11] <cprofitt> ara could blog about it... perhaps I ping jono on it even
[16:11] <cprofitt> since it is moving towards a community thing
[16:11] <cprofitt> balloons might even want to get in on the action.
[16:11] <zyga> cprofitt: balloons?
[16:12] <cprofitt> Nicholas Skaggs = balloons
[16:15] <cprofitt> zyga: https://launchpad.net/~nskaggs
[16:16]  * balloons ducks
[16:16] <cprofitt> lol
[16:16] <cprofitt> we are talking about Ubuntu Friendly becoming a community effort balloons
[16:16] <cprofitt> and blogging about it
[16:17] <zyga> ah
[16:17] <cprofitt> starting the ball rolling to get that transistion rolling... and improvements to how it works from the end user perspective -- both submitting results and searching for Ubuntu friendly hardware to buy
[16:17]  * zyga though for a moment, about a project codename balloons ;)
[16:18] <balloons> cprofitt, yes,  UF
[16:20] <balloons> from a testing perspective, we are trying to get a hw testing db off the ground called hexr..
[16:21] <balloons> i know zyga is working on making a nicer client again for checkbox
[16:21] <zyga> yes
[16:21] <zyga> and improve the quality of the tests used by the current client
[16:22] <zyga> I'll cut a new release soon
[16:22] <zyga> and try to get the package into raring
[16:22] <balloons> so the question is, what role does UF take on in the future? What goals does it have?
[16:22] <zyga> balloons: that's a good question
[16:22] <balloons> continue to be a "works with ubunu" db or something else?
[16:22] <zyga> balloons: and one that should be answered, with authority, by someone who takes the maintenence over
[16:22] <balloons> indeed
[16:25] <zyga> balloons: I'm sure we can give a few ideas that can inspire people
[16:25]  * cprofitt nods
[16:25] <zyga> balloons: but the goal should be to find someone that wants to drive this
[16:25] <zyga> and make their own choices
[16:25] <cprofitt> I agree zyga
[16:26] <cprofitt> I might be interested, but I am not sure if I would have the time...
[16:26] <cprofitt> but I agree the person taking it over should drive those answers...
[16:26] <zyga> right, it's not a job, it's the passion and will of someone from the community
[16:27] <cprofitt> I think blogging about the transition and what the project could become to the community is important
[16:28] <cprofitt> I feel strongly that it is important and should work well for ubuntu users and potential ubuntu users... right now it is one of the few ways to get a computer with Ubuntu and know you are not going to have issues
[16:28] <cprofitt> having users get machines that do not work is not a good thing... expecially as we move outside the group that has good technical skills
[16:29] <dkessel> agreed, cprofitt
[16:29] <balloons> indeed
[16:30] <balloons> so, just needs to be focused
[16:30] <cprofitt> +1
[16:30] <zyga> yeah, I agree, the focus on less-technical and more typical and numerous audience is what I think the project could excell at
[16:30] <zyga> after all, we'll always have checkbox
[16:30] <zyga> (we'll always have paris ;)
[16:31] <cprofitt> I am at work right now, but I would truly like to understand what is required of a 'maintainer'
[16:32] <cprofitt> we have to integrate those parts in to a system that is easy to navigate, but has quality results that are meaningful
[16:33] <zyga> cprofitt: good point, both aspects (data and ease of use) are important if this is going anywhere
[16:34] <cprofitt> I really need to spend some time on this after work today...
[16:34] <cprofitt> to look at the code and to understand how the parts currently mesh together
[16:35] <cprofitt> then to understand what a maintainer is responsible for
[16:44] <cprofitt> balloons: will you be on in about 6-7 hours?
[16:44] <balloons> cprofitt, hmm yes quite possibly :-)
[16:48] <cprofitt> cool... I am getting pulled away right now... but I will try to talk with you about this tonight if you are on
[16:48] <cprofitt> thanks
[18:06] <balloons> bah, letzoaf isn't around yet
[18:11] <dkessel> balloons, do you have the crash log for bug 1095453?
[18:12] <dkessel> i guess i have deleted it
[18:12] <balloons> umm, yes
[18:12] <balloons> that was when it wasn't autouploading stuff
[18:13] <dkessel> could you attach the info? bdmurray can't reproduce it...
[18:13] <balloons> yes, attaching
[18:13] <balloons> it's 10 mbs
[18:14] <balloons> gonna be a few for me to upload it ;-
[18:14] <balloons> should be in your /var/crash folder dkessel
[18:15] <balloons> also gonna try and re-create it again
[18:15] <dkessel> i cleared it out the other day... :) but i can try to reproduce it
[18:17] <balloons> I'm trying as well
[18:18] <balloons> k it's uploaded
[18:19] <balloons> yep, still crashes for me
[18:21] <dkessel> aaah. i guess i should not have installed all update yet...
[18:21] <dkessel> it does not crash when it only shows the "everything is up to date" message
[18:25] <balloons> ahh, feel free to add that info
[18:25] <balloons> perhaps that's bmurray's issue
[18:27]  * dkessel watches his cat drug herself on catnip :)
[18:28] <balloons> rofl
[18:31] <dkessel> ... so what else could i do for ubuntu qa today?
[18:33] <balloons> ohh
[18:34] <balloons> I got to file those feature requests ;-)
[18:34] <balloons> I was going to say I want to get the introspection example complete, so I can write the next piece finally
[18:35] <balloons> any luck on your end using it?
[18:37] <dkessel> oh right. i did not try it anymore yesterday. i should do that. maybe i find the right combobox in the introspection tree....
[18:39]  * dkessel has found another bug
[18:39] <dkessel> too bad my vm has "only" 1.5 gigs RAM... apport says it can't send the report because of too little ram
[18:40] <dkessel> cd /var/crash....
[18:42] <balloons> umm.. even via command line?
[18:43] <balloons> hello Noskcaj
[18:44] <Noskcaj> hey balloons
[18:45] <Noskcaj> any idea why you get program double-ups when you install two DE's?
[18:45] <balloons> what you mean?
[18:46] <dkessel> hmm apport can't process a 64k .crash file with 1.5 GB ram? strange
[18:46] <balloons> got many processes open or something?
[18:46] <balloons> sounds really weird
[18:47] <dkessel> nothing but the system settings and a terminal. restarting to see if it has an effect
[18:47] <Noskcaj> i have xubuntu, then i put lubuntu-desktop on. i have two copies of some programs and because i installed all of lubuntu's stupid card games i can't just remove lubuntu-desktop to fix it. dkessel, that is wierd
[18:47] <balloons> ohh yes
[18:48] <balloons> removing a metapackage won't remove all the programs the metapackage installed
[18:49] <dkessel> i have steps to reproduce for you :)
[18:49] <dkessel> for both... the initial crash and the failing apport upload
[18:49] <balloons> lol nice
[18:49] <Noskcaj> balloons, sigh, after installing it i can't find why i would need lubuntu as well.
[18:49] <dkessel> open system settings. choose "online accounts" (or whatever the name is in english)
[18:50] <balloons> Noskcaj, you should have an apt history
[18:50] <dkessel> signon-ui, if you know what i mean
[18:50] <balloons> but uninstalling those packages in one go is a bit less straight forwar
[18:51] <dkessel> meh. does not crash anymore...
[18:52] <Noskcaj> balloons, i installed it along with 20 other things, so i think i will keep lubuntu.
[18:52] <balloons> hehe
[18:52] <balloons> you could force uninstall low level libs and lubuntu* and lxde*
[18:53] <balloons> the install the xfce meta package again
[18:53] <balloons> or use your hist
[18:53] <balloons> anyways
[18:53] <Noskcaj> to man ideas, and i should keep lubuntu, at least to amuse phill
[18:54] <balloons> hehe
[18:56] <dkessel> well, i'll just report that apport bug as i can't reproduce the other one after rebooting
[18:58] <zyga> woot
[18:58]  * zyga got support for test-scenarios in python3
[19:00] <Noskcaj> balloons, are you getting anywhere with th qa-website bugs?
[19:03] <dkessel> yes chromium. go on. crash without me opening you :)
[19:04] <balloons> Noskcaj, hmm
[19:04] <balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/1096192
[19:04] <balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/1096446
[19:06] <Noskcaj> yep, those two. plus there are a few bugs reported by others that are just sitting around.
[19:06] <balloons> depends on stephane's time
[19:06] <balloons> normally he is able to work the first month of the cycle on stuff
[19:06] <balloons> it might have to sit for a few months, it depends
[19:08] <balloons> the netboot thing should be easier to do
[19:08] <balloons> err.. the kernel changelog
[19:08] <balloons> letozaf_, hello
[19:08] <balloons> wanted to ask about your merge
[19:09] <letozaf_> hello!
[19:09] <letozaf_> yes tell me
[19:09] <balloons> using ~ doesn't work
[19:10] <balloons> you have to make a global 'home' variable?
[19:10] <balloons> it works for me
[19:10] <letozaf_> on my notebook it doesn't
[19:10] <letozaf_> maybe because I have italian keyboard ?
[19:10] <letozaf_> I get ì instead
[19:10] <letozaf_> of ~
[19:10] <letozaf_> If I remember well
[19:11] <balloons> ohh shoo
[19:11] <balloons> that's no good
[19:11] <balloons> well, regardless
[19:11] <balloons> probably should put that in /tmp anyways
[19:11] <balloons> but we should definitely avoid globals
[19:11] <balloons> good to know can't use ~
[19:11] <letozaf_> ok infact I did not upload anything becaus
[19:12] <letozaf_> because I was not sure you would like it
[19:12] <letozaf_> if you want I will try to find out why ~
[19:12] <letozaf_> doesn't work and how to make it work
[19:12] <letozaf_> not sure I will sucsede
[19:13] <letozaf_> *succeed
[19:13] <letozaf_> but I can try
[19:14] <letozaf_> yesterday I saw awsome things, when will we be able to use them ?
[19:14] <balloons> alesage, is there a good assertion for asserting a property exists?
[19:14] <balloons> I see you doing this:
[19:14] <balloons>         btn = self.app.select_single('GtkToolButton', name='FileNew')
[19:14] <balloons>         self.assertThat(btn, NotEquals(None))
[19:14] <balloons> that the best way to do it?
[19:14] <balloons> letozaf_, it all works now, so we can use the mnow
[19:14] <balloons> trying to finish the next piece of the tutorial, but aks away
[19:16] <letozaf_> I wanted to try the new things about selecting menu items ect...
[19:16] <letozaf_> but I'm not in a hurry
[19:16] <letozaf_> tonight I have to go away in about 10 min
[19:16] <Noskcaj> y
[19:16] <letozaf_> but I cannot wait to try the new stuff
[19:17] <Noskcaj> oops lol, that was meant to be in terminal
[19:17] <balloons> ahh, well I'll be starting to push some of it
[19:17] <letozaf_> I can connect from where I will go, but If you guys are still working at the new stuff
[19:17] <letozaf_> I will start tomorrow
[19:18] <letozaf_> will  I need to update autopilot ?
[19:18] <alesage> balloons, I've been doing it that way yes--I'm scanning the docs for further guidance
[19:18] <alesage> balloons, maybe we'll quiz thomi or veebers when they're up
[19:18] <balloons> ok, it's working, so, can't complain ;-)
[19:18] <balloons> just wasn't sure
[19:19] <balloons> letozaf_, umm.. you'll need to check the gtk introspection dev library version
[19:19] <balloons> are you on raring/
[19:19] <letozaf_> yes
[19:19] <balloons> then you should be good
[19:20] <balloons> apt-cache show libautopilot-gtk0
[19:20] <balloons> apt-cache show libautopilot-gtk-dev
[19:20] <balloons> you want: Version: 0.4-0ubuntu1+bzr14pkg0raring1
[19:21] <letozaf_> yes I got the right version
[19:21] <letozaf_> but do I have to launch for instance autopilot launch gedit
[19:21] <dkessel> hm could "apport fails to collect details on signon-ui crash on 2 GB VM with message 'not enough memory'" be considered a valid bug? i managed to submit the crash by upping the RAM to 4 GB...
[19:22] <balloons> basically, you launch the autopilot vis tool, look at the app internals and figure out the properties you want to assert or look at
[19:22] <balloons> currently, it's annoying because gtk apps spawn alot of stuff you have to look through
[19:22] <balloons> dkessel, probably needs more memory
[19:22] <balloons> however, you could ping the apport guys on what's goin gon
[19:22] <balloons> and possibly it should take that much mem to submit
[19:24] <letozaf_> balloons, I will try to connect later and maybe if I can I will try to do something, otherwise I will connect tomorrow night
[19:24] <letozaf_> thanks
[19:24] <balloons> letozaf_, sounds fine
[19:25] <balloons> the autopilot guys are all on this channel now
[19:25] <balloons> so feel free to ask them as well.. I'm learning this piece of it too
[19:25] <balloons> :-)
[19:25] <letozaf_> ahhh! I have to connect
[19:25] <letozaf_> feel like I'm missing interesting things :D
[19:26] <letozaf_> bye I will try to re-connect later
[19:26] <balloons> letozaf_, ciao
[19:26] <letozaf_> ciao
[19:26] <balloons> a bondanza?
[19:30] <dkessel> has anybody got time to confirm bug 1097423 ? i don't want to bug balloons today :)
[19:30] <balloons> alesage, another question.. so in order to use introspection I need to utilize launch_test_application?
[19:30] <dkessel> bug 1097423
[19:30] <dkessel> ?
[19:31] <alesage> balloons, yes this adds the magic introspection-sauce so far as I understand it
[19:31] <balloons> I lose all the bamf goodness.. I think some of the confusion of using the tool will be the multiple ways to launch an app, and the different methods availible once launched differ
[19:31] <alesage> balloons, hmm
[19:32] <alesage> balloons, I have such a special case for the indicators, know what you mean
[19:32] <alesage> not feeling qualified to serve a solution though :) --what is it about bamf that you're missing?
[19:32] <balloons> i'm somewhat ok with that.. I just want to propagate on the best practices for what we're doing
[19:33] <balloons> more pythonic, less perlesque :-)
[19:33] <thomi> morning all
[19:33] <balloons> hello thomi
[19:33] <dkessel> hello thomi, good evening
[19:33] <Noskcaj> thomi, morning. i never understand why i'm 2 timezones behind you and i'm still on irc first
[19:34] <thomi> Noskcaj: well, technically, I never leave IRC
[19:34] <Noskcaj> ok?
[19:34] <thomi> Noskcaj: often I'll check my email before announcing my presence :)
[19:35] <balloons> thomi has become self-ware.. or at least his irc bot has
[19:35] <Noskcaj> balloons, lol. thomi, so do i
[19:35] <balloons> Noskcaj, you get up early
[19:35] <balloons> 0630 right?
[19:35] <thomi> ...or I'm super-slack
[19:36] <Noskcaj> balloons, yep, i wake really early always
[19:36] <balloons> ok so thomi we were chatting about a couple things
[19:37] <balloons> 1) the best way to assert about a property (existence, non-existence, value)
[19:38] <balloons> 2) The issues with differing ways to launch your test application (and differing methods available)
[19:39] <balloons> also, I added those requests.. and I'll add a pretty please (along with the 'launch' functionality)
[19:41] <thomi> balloons: ok, taking them off the stack in reverse order...
[19:42] <thomi> no wait, it's a stack, so taking them in the correct order...
[19:42] <balloons> :-)
[19:42] <balloons> pop()
[19:42] <thomi> 3) the launch functionality is basically done. It works on my laptop - just gotta do a bit more testing before I push the MP
[19:43] <thomi> ...the new functionality will be available in the autopilot PPA right after the MP gets approved, and I'll talk to Martin about doing an AP release
[19:44] <thomi> 2) you should always launch your test application using the launch_test_application method, provided by those mixin classes. This is the only way to launch an application and get the application proxy object, which you need if you want to do any sort of introspection.
[19:45] <thomi> the other methds exist becuase in the unity tests we frequently want to launch some applications and see how unity handles their windows.... so the fact that those methods are so prominent is due to autopilots history
[19:46] <thomi> 1) THe absolute best way to assert for the value of a property is like: 'self.assertThat(object.property, Eventually(Equals(123)))
[19:46] <thomi> Eventually comes from autopilot.matchers module, Equals (or LessThan, Is, Not, Contains, etc, etc) comes from testtools.matchers
[19:47] <thomi> however, that only works if 'object' is a part of the application you want to introspect. If it's something else, then you need to use assertProperty: 'self.assertProperty(object, property=123)' OR use a lambda function with the Eventually matcher
[19:48] <thomi> to test for the existance of an attribute, use a callable with Eventually. To test that 'property' exists on 'object', I'd do this:
[19:48] <thomi> self.assertThat(lambda: hasattr(object, 'property'), Eventually(Equals(True)))
[19:49] <thomi> ...but in my experience most attributes are statically created, so you almost never have to do that
[19:49] <thomi> does that answer your stack of questions? :)
[19:50] <balloons> I believe so.. I'm working through converting my original gedit tests to use introspectoin
[19:50] <balloons> then I'll push to you for comment.. for one thing I was using bamf set app focus, and sending keystrokes to open menus and manipulate the app
[19:51] <balloons> now that we have introspection my assumption is I should only be sending keystrokes and mouse clicks for ? hmm.. not sure really
[19:54] <thomi> balloons: still use the mouse * keyboard as you were, but now you can use introspection to make sure that the menus / dialogs / whatever have actually opened
[20:07] <balloons> thomi, sure.. but I do miss the application to set/get focus
[20:07] <balloons> *ability
[20:08] <thomi> balloons: Is that required? Possibly we can make that part of autopilot - don't return until the app is launched and focused.
[20:09] <balloons> thomi, I'd really like to be assured of where my keystrokes are going
[20:09] <balloons> but no, not required I guess.. I mean, if something gets off, the tests will just fail
[20:26] <dkessel> lol
[20:26] <dkessel> what can we do about that "this is no official ubuntu package" warning when running appport for update-manager?
[20:31] <balloons> funny stuff isn't it?
[20:31] <balloons> I believe it's reported
[20:31] <balloons> if not it should be..
[20:32] <letozaf_> balloons, I have tried the evince autopilot test on my notebook with the ~ but as I already told you it does not work  I get a ì instead
[20:32] <balloons> yes.. intl keyboard issues
[20:32] <balloons> let's change it to go to temop
[20:32] <letozaf_> ok
[20:32] <balloons> and still avoid the global
[20:32] <letozaf_> ok sure!
[20:36] <dkessel> balloons, would that "not an official package" most likely be a bug in update-manager, or apport?
[20:36] <balloons> I'd file with update-manager
[20:38] <balloons> but again
[20:38] <balloons> I'm 99.9% sure it's filed already
[20:39] <balloons> and/or there's an explaination
[20:39] <balloons> but I've seen it before
[20:40] <dkessel> i'll check
[21:52] <Noskcaj> balloons, are you able to pt some dates on the classroom wiki? i need to know at least a week ahead. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Activities/Classroom
[21:52] <balloons> yes, put your dates in
[21:53] <balloons> I thought we had this discussion last week Noskcaj
[21:53] <balloons> sorry
[21:53] <balloons> pick any datetimes you like
[21:53] <Noskcaj> balloons, oh yeah, forgot. it's just i need to go after spme of the others
[21:53] <balloons> the first is happening this week
[21:53] <balloons> so, go for it
[21:53] <balloons> make something for next weke
[21:54] <balloons> ohh.. who do you need to go first?
[21:54] <Noskcaj> i thhought yours needed two be first?
[21:54] <balloons> yes.. so anyone else/
[21:56] <Noskcaj> no, just that one. do you if phill was going to do a Vbox session?
[21:56] <balloons> everyone is as signed up..
[21:57] <balloons> he was
[21:58] <Noskcaj> ok, did he want me to co-host? i think i will do testdrive on the 24th (23rd for all of you)
[21:59] <balloons> :-)
[21:59] <balloons> those dates
[22:02] <Noskcaj> i will edit the date in now
[22:24] <balloons> excellent
[22:48] <Noskcaj> Is there anyone from the laptop team here, we need at least one of you to host some classroom sessions
[22:49] <balloons> Sergio is intended to do so Noskcaj
[22:49] <balloons> we'll see what he says ;-)
[22:49] <balloons> k.. dinner time pour moi
[22:49] <Noskcaj> ok
[22:49] <balloons> thx Noskcaj