[09:12] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:16] <MooDoo> morning all
[09:17] <mungbean> guys, how do i close a irssi PM window?
[09:18] <popey> mungbean: /wc
[09:18] <popey> I very very nearly typed /wc in here ☺
[09:19] <mungbean> :P
[09:19] <Seeker`> popey: What is the key combination to close an application window?
[09:19] <mungbean> ta popey
[09:21] <czajkowski> mungbean: top stop me closing windows by accident I do turn on immortal windows
[09:23] <mungbean> ooh vmware tools has magic driver-free printing
[09:23] <mungbean> just noticed
[09:26] <diplo> Morning all
[09:34] <daubers> Morning
[09:35] <Seeker`> hallo
[09:36] <popey> pip pip
[09:39]  * popey wonders if AlanBell will write up his webcam fun sometime
[09:42] <popey> http://guest:guest@popey.mooo.com:81/snapshot.cgi  cat cam!
[09:48] <diplo> I really must buy one soon!
[09:49] <diplo> I have the joys of fitting a laptop screen tonight
[09:49] <diplo> Not done one in about 3-4 years if not more
[09:49] <diplo> fun fun
[09:49] <dwatkins> I put my laptop into the car a little too casually once, cracked the screen due to it hitting the floor of the car too hard.
[09:50] <diplo> Watched a few vids, seems simple enough ( he hopes )
[09:51] <dwatkins> what kind of laptop, diplo/
[09:51] <dwatkins> ? even
[09:51] <diplo> Sony Vaio
[09:51] <dwatkins> hopefully won't be too troublesome
[09:51] <diplo> Seems it should be 4 screws on the front, 4 on the sides once the cover is off and 2 cables
[09:51] <diplo> Swap out and new one back in ( as long as I got the right one! )
[09:51] <diplo> :P
[09:52] <dwatkins> I had the display on my Eee replaced (dead pixels upon delivery when it was new) and the repair person gave me a present of a small hair just in the centre of the top part of the screen.
[09:52] <diplo> heh
[09:52] <mungbean> which eee?
[09:52] <dwatkins> So long as I don't look at white screens, I don't notice it.
[09:52] <Seeker`> dwatkins: that was nice of them
[09:52] <dwatkins> mungbean: this was the 901, I've had several.
[09:52] <dwatkins> Seeker`: yeah, if I worked in a lab I'd test if for DNA ;)
[09:52] <mungbean> i have a black spec , 1x1 pixel after replacing the screen on my tablet
[09:53] <mungbean> 1 spec aint bad considering i did it in the living room with my son running around
[09:53] <dwatkins> mungbean: bah - I originally sent the Eee back to where I bought it, they refused to repair it, so I sent it to the manufacturer instead
[09:53] <mungbean> my wife smashed the screen and the broken bits were v difficult to remove
[09:53] <dwatkins> ah ok, not a manufacturing fault
[09:57] <mungbean> someone do me a favour and tell me how much memory virt/res xorg is using
[09:58] <dwatkins> 27008 6388
[09:58] <dwatkins> I don't use that machine much, though.
[09:59] <diplo> 140m 122m
[09:59] <mungbean> top gives  949m 317m
[09:59] <popey>  1732 root      20   0  304m  28m  11m S    4  0.4  51:24.70 Xorg
[09:59] <mungbean> diplo: how many screens?
[09:59] <diplo> 2
[09:59] <mungbean> why mine so high?
[09:59] <mungbean> uptime 21days
[09:59] <diplo> But only booted an hour ago because of power cut last night
[09:59] <diplo> ^^
[10:00] <diplo> Mine gets higher the longer it's up
[10:00] <mungbean> popey: when u booted?
[10:00] <popey> mungbean: firefox?
[10:00] <popey>  10:00:16 up 1 day,  1:59,  8 users,  load average: 0.77, 0.86, 0.91
[10:00] <mungbean> chrome is running, not ff
[10:00] <diplo> popey: Just a fyi, can't connect to mooo.com
[10:00] <popey> oh
[10:00] <diplo> Well the camera specifically
[10:00] <popey> nvm ☺
[10:01] <diplo> Well, actually... removed snapshot.cgi and it does
[10:01] <diplo> So incorrect url I guess
[10:17] <brobostigon> good morning everyone
[10:26] <mungbean> hello brobostigon
[10:28] <brobostigon> hello mungbean
[10:34] <bigcalm> Good morning peeps :)
[10:48] <diplo> Anyone like to confirm this for me.
[10:49] <diplo> Scripts in init.d get called and automatically run the start command within it if there ?
[10:50] <dwatkins> when?
[10:50] <diplo> On boot
[10:50] <mungbean> on ubuntu or centos?
[10:50] <Laney> just got access to my student loan account for the first time ever
[10:50] <Laney> £14,856.33
[10:50] <diplo> This is Centos but wanting to know generically
[10:50] <mungbean> centos you need to check chkconfig --list
[10:50] <diplo> Basically we have a service that really needs to restart to delete a pid file
[10:50] <czajkowski> Laney: is that good or bad
[10:51] <diplo> yeah I understand that side, it's the calling of the start/stop/restart script
[10:51] <Laney> feels like a lot
[10:51] <diplo> How does it know what to run on start
[10:51] <Laney> not as much as what the yoof of today get though
[10:51] <Laney> 9k fees + loan
[10:51] <Laney> muhahahaha
[10:51] <Laney> (per year)
[10:52] <directhex> my student loan outstanding balance is... about £150
[10:52] <Laney> i've only made 4 repayments :(
[10:53]  * Dave2 stabs directhex a bit with his ~£20k :(
[10:53] <Laney> i think i was the last year before the fees loans
[10:55] <directhex> the highest my balance ever was was £9842
[10:55] <directhex> nw it's less. damn, i've lost my 2012 statement
[10:56] <directhex> oh here it is. £1648.46 in april 2012
[10:56] <Laney> can't you get on the website?
[10:56] <kvarley> Laney: 8k a year for me + maintenance loan
[10:56] <kvarley> Laney: Only 4 units per year now as well
[10:56] <Laney> what is a unit?
[10:57] <directhex> £150 a month paid all last year, so apparently £300 to pay. if my sums are accurate.
[10:57] <kvarley> Laney: Essentially a label for the topics they teach you. 12 hours tuition a week.
[10:57] <Laney> oh, we called those modules
[10:57] <Laney> directhex: you can input your payments into the website and it works out the interest
[10:57] <kvarley> Laney: Ah, same thing.
[10:59] <directhex> Laney, i can't log in. i predate them knowing what an "email address" is so i lack required data for a password reset
[10:59]  * Laney just called up and had them reset it
[11:01] <directhex> not much point resetting it for the sake of a couple of weeks :p
[11:01] <directhex> i'll call them after jan's paycheque has landed
[11:03] <directhex> the point is to call them up once the coming month's payment is less than the PAYE deduction, and just pay off the balance with visa
[11:05] <Laney> does that fix having to claim money back?
[11:06] <directhex> yes.
[11:06] <Laney> hax
[11:09] <kvarley> Any footage of Ubuntu at CES 2013 online yet?
[11:10] <czajkowski> kvarley: https://t.co/k16GQr1b
[11:10] <czajkowski> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RO7QbCqFY7Y
[11:11] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:16] <kvarley>  czajkowski: Thanks :D
[11:17] <czajkowski> kvarley: or just search #ces on social sites ;)
[11:17] <kvarley>  czajkowski: Ooops, no idea why I didn't think of that. I asked right after checking Twitter as well *facepalm*
[11:18] <czajkowski> lol
[11:18] <czajkowski> :)
[11:18] <czajkowski> kvarley: https://twitter.com/search?q=ces%20ubuntu&src=typd
[11:19] <kvarley> czajkowski: Thanks :) there goes my productivity for today heh
[11:35] <mungbean> all the ubuntu phone stuff i've seen at CES is still in portrait mode
[11:36] <SuperMatt> weeeellll, it's still not a full product
[11:36] <SuperMatt> I bet there's a Canonical Monkey tapping away at the code as we speak
[11:37] <SuperMatt> Can we start calling them Canonimonkeys?
[11:37] <popey> or "developers" as they're usually called
[11:38] <directhex> xamarin has the monopoly on monkey-themed developers
[11:39] <DJones> Hmmh, why can't I mount a samba share via fstab, I'm sure I've got the right line in fstab, but I get mount error(6) No such device or address
[11:39] <mungbean> i also see a lot of unintended operations while demoing the phone
[11:39] <bigcalm> popey++
[11:39] <mungbean> not sure if a failing of the UI, or just because early builds
[11:39] <bigcalm> DJones: do you have cifs installed?
[11:39] <popey> the latter mungbean
[11:39] <popey> give us some credit, please
[11:40] <bigcalm> DJones: are you calling the remote server by name or ip address?
[11:40] <mungbean> popey, UI design , rather than implementation
[11:40] <DJones> bigcalm: ip address, just checking for cifs, I've cifs-utils installed
[11:40] <mungbean> keyboard popping up when trying to switch apps etc
[11:41] <popey> yeah, early build
[11:41] <bigcalm> DJones: from my /etc/fstab: //proliant/iain     /media/smb/proliant/iain    cifs    credentials=/home/iain/.smbcredentials,iocharset=utf8,file_mode=0666,dir_mode=0777      0       0
[11:41] <DJones> bigcalm: fstab line is //192.168.0.25/media/media/Video /media/Media cifs guest,uid=1000,iocharset=utf8,codepage=unicode,unicode  0  0  (as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MountWindowsSharesPermanently)
[11:42] <bigcalm> Can you get to \\192.168.0.25/media/media/Video in a file browser?
[11:42] <DJones> I can browse to the share via nautilus
[11:42] <bigcalm> Oh
[11:45] <DJones> Although that goes, Browse Network -> Windows Network -> DANCOL -> DANCOLSERVER -> share     Which then shows me 5 folders including Video, on the server itself, its mounted at /media/media/Video
[11:45] <DJones> ip address is correct
[11:46] <bigcalm> Does the share have guest access? The file browser might be passing on credentials (shot in the dark)
[11:47] <DJones> Could be, I'll check
[11:49] <diplo> I always test when having problems with smbclient and mount on the cli
[11:49] <DJones> smb.conf has path = /media/media, browsable = yes, guest ok = yes, read only = no, create mask = 0755
[11:50] <diplo> smbclient -L //path -u ? and display as user ?
[11:56] <DJones> This doesn't look right http://pastebin.com/daiwy0mw I would have expected the share to give details of folders available
[12:01] <diplo> dave the user that has access on the smb server ?
[12:01] <DJones> yes
[12:02] <diplo> Not used in a while, 2 secs.. will just run on mine to remind me of the output
[12:02] <DJones> Cheers
[12:03] <bigcalm> I keep forgetting how many Daves and Davids we have in here :)
[12:04] <diplo> yeah, defo shows my shares
[12:04] <DJones> So looks like the problem is on the server then
[12:04] <diplo> You dumped your config? Bit rusty on samba shares but can take a look
[12:04] <diplo> I'd say yeah
[12:05] <SuperMatt> bigcalm: is it more or less than the number of Alans?
[12:05] <popey> NEED MOAR ALANS
[12:06] <Dave2> Fewer daves.
[12:07] <TheOpenSourcerer> popey: +1
[12:07] <TheOpenSourcerer> or is it +2
[12:07] <Seeker`> why do we need more alans?
[12:07] <TheOpenSourcerer> Coz it's good.
[12:07] <Seeker`> mmm. not convinced.
[12:08] <bigcalm> TheOpenSourcerer: the old kudos method was <name>++
[12:08] <TheOpenSourcerer> lol
[12:10] <DJones> diplo: share section of smb.conf is http://pastebin.com/uXH29nUJ
[12:12] <diplo> OK, so it is correct
[12:15] <diplo> So mount -t cifs -o dave //192.168.0.25/share /media/dir
[12:15] <diplo> ?
[12:16] <diplo> Or mount -t cifs  //192.168.0.25/share /media/dir username=dave,password=<yourpass> I think will work as well ( been a while on these :P )
[12:16] <DJones> That works with sudo, I'll change fstab to mount //192.168.0.25/share
[12:18] <DJones> changing fstab didn't work
[12:19] <DJones> Got it
[12:19] <diplo> So you're running mount -a after..
[12:19] <diplo> Ah. :)
[12:19] <diplo> Cool
[12:19] <DJones> Thanks for the help
[12:19] <directhex> so with all my music loaded on, it's official: iOS is now the most linux-user-hostile smartphone OS, with WP8 leaving behind WP7's worst baggage
[12:19] <directhex> aquarius may be interested by this
[12:20]  * aquarius grins
[12:20] <aquarius> directhex, I have not even tried to connect my phone to my laptop, because I think it will just end in misery and annoyance.
[12:21] <directhex> i received an SD card today
[12:21] <directhex> since most WP8 devices have SD card slots, i just copied my music to it. and it worked, no fuss
[12:21] <directhex> worst i got was a popup asking me if it should switch to saving new photos on the SD rather than the phone
[12:22] <aquarius> heh. I just use u1 music anyway, on whichever phone I'm on; I don't sync from local storage. So that didn't affect me all that much, although I agree entirely that it's aggressively user-hostile to stop someone syncing if they want ti
[12:22] <aquarius> *to
[12:23] <directhex> well MTP-Z also blocked me copying my photos off with wp7. mostly emailed to myself
[12:23] <aquarius> that mtp-z thing is pretty annoying, indeed
[12:24] <aquarius> (although, again, photos are copied off with U1 -- the non-existence of U1 on WP was one of the big reasons I didn't look at it very hard)
[12:24] <directhex> development still requires windows. although that's no different from ios dev needing a mac
[12:26] <DJones> At least now I've sorted mount point, I can set xbmc up now
[12:26] <aquarius> indeed; I'd have happily made a U1 app for WP, in the same way I did for the N9, but I can't because I don't have Windows -- I'm exactly the same with iOS, in that I can't develop apps for it. Whether that is a serious problem is something I'm still trying to work out.
[12:27] <aquarius> It's *conceptually* a problem: I don't like it. Whether it actually affects me or the problem is just theoretical (but still a problem) remains to be seen; answering questions like that is part of the point of the experiment ;)
[12:31] <aquarius> directhex, what's changed in your opinion from WP7.5 to WP8?
[12:32] <directhex> aquarius, from an end user perspective? an ubuntu user? visible os changes?
[12:34] <directhex> as an end user, i can use it 100% from ubuntu, and that's important. no more MTP-Z, no more zune to install updates. it's a real post-PC device, where WP7.5 wasn't
[12:34] <aquarius> directhex, just... what you think's happened. I don't know much about WP8, because the reasons I didn't choose WP7 have, as far as I'm aware, not changed. That's why I'm asking :)
[12:35] <aquarius> directhex, can you use it without mtp-z by connecting? or do you have to use the SD card to do that?
[12:36] <directhex> just treat it as any other MTP device, in nautilus or banshee or rhythmbox or whatever
[12:37] <directhex> worst you need is an entry in libmtp music-players.h - but most new devices need that. the N9 needed that
[12:37] <directhex> and it's already in libmtp git (or was a few days ago anyway)
[12:37] <aquarius> that's fair
[12:37] <aquarius> how do you get non-music content into apps on the phone? My primary care on this sort of thing is epubs
[12:39] <directhex> i just transferred a test PDF into the /Documents/ folder - dunno about epub
[12:39] <directhex> (via nautilus gvfs, not via SD card)
[12:44] <directhex> i don't think WP7 apps can read from arbitrary folders, so most of the reader apps i'm seeing are asking me to import via skydrive
[12:48] <directhex> not that folders really exist with MTP. not really. it's complicated.
[13:39] <awilkins> Anyone know a trustworthy domain registrar who will take a backorder and not betray me by selling the information to another party who will then register it and squeeze me for it?
[13:40] <awilkins> Ach, never mind, GoDaddy re-registered it
[13:40] <awilkins> Scum
[13:40] <awilkins> That's what you get for searching for it on their website
[13:40] <SuperMatt> yup
[13:40] <SuperMatt> that kind of practice should be made illegal
[13:41] <mungbean> hard to prove that
[13:41] <awilkins> I searched for it on their site, it was owned by Domains by Proxy LLC the next day
[13:41] <awilkins> They are a GoDaddy subsidiary
[13:42] <mungbean> i had a cool domain that i wanted to get but someone else snagged it on expriy day, but could have been anyone
[13:42] <awilkins> or "affiliate" as they put it
[13:42] <awilkins> This was not taken initially
[13:43] <awilkins> But they've sat on it since they registered it Dec 2011
[13:43] <dwatkins> A friend of mine used her name (.com) as her CV, but it expired because the guy who bought it for 5 years didn't give her access to renew it, so some domain squatting company bought it up, and she had to switch to the .org version of her name.
[13:43] <awilkins> I had a calendar appointment for when it expired but I didn't know enough about the process
[13:43] <dwatkins> at least namecheap allowed me to hide my address info on the .org domain
[13:45] <dwatkins>     Domain Admin        (contact@privacyprotect.org)
[13:45] <mungbean> so if i want to snag a domain when it expires, what are my chances and best approach?
[13:46] <dwatkins> you can get some registrars to notify you when one's about to expire, for free iirc
[13:46] <mungbean> currently owned by domcollect domain snaggers
[13:46] <mungbean> i know when its expiring
[13:46] <dwatkins> you might even be able to pay to join the queue to buy a domain as soon as its freed-up
[13:46] <dwatkins> question is, will they let it expire
[13:46] <mungbean> seems to be designed to rip people off
[13:47] <dwatkins> yeah, sadly there's a lot of this with domain names
[13:47] <mungbean> sedo want £1000 for it
[13:47] <dwatkins> ouch
[13:48] <dwatkins> chances are they won't get that from anyone, but if they do that for enough domains, eventually someone will pay up, I guess.
[13:48] <awilkins> I know, and if I get the .co.uk variant of it, the .com variant will no doubt go up in price
[13:50] <awilkins> Ach, hell, I can live with just being a .co.uk
[13:51] <dwatkins> get a .eu ;)
[13:51] <popey> .info!
[13:52] <popey> .cx :D
[13:52] <dwatkins> .co.gb!
[13:52] <awilkins> So, are NameCheap less scummy than GoDaddy?
[13:52] <dwatkins> I prefer their website, it's less gaudy ;)
[13:53] <popey> i use gandi
[13:53] <popey> not scammy at all
[13:53] <dwatkins> http://www.changeip.com/ have also been reccomended to me, but I can't vouch for them
[13:53] <dwatkins> i.e. never used them
[13:53] <awilkins> popey,  I like Gandi just from their front page
[13:54] <dwatkins> sometimes that's all it takes to win a customer :)
[13:54] <mungbean> no pics of that danica girl
[13:54] <awilkins> I think they had me at "write your own zone file"
[13:54] <awilkins> Not that I know how to
[13:54] <awilkins> But I sort of know what one is
[13:54] <dwatkins> turns out you can't register under .gb any more
[13:55] <awilkins> And that someone who makes a point of saying "hey, geeks, you can control things right down to the bare metal" is probably more useful than someone who says "Hey! Domains! Pew pew!"
[13:55] <popey> it has a template
[13:56] <mungbean> bit of a rude slogan tho
[13:56] <neuro> nominet consultation ends today on creating SLD registrations under .uk
[13:56] <neuro> general consensus from UK internet types is "no, bad"
[13:56] <popey> scot.uk ☺
[13:56] <awilkins> Where the hell is .sx
[13:57] <dwatkins> glad to hear that they won't be doing that, neuro - keep it simple, imho
[13:57] <neuro> dwatkins: nominet may just press on and do it anyway
[13:57] <dwatkins> neuro: hmmm, I don't see any reason to, but perhaps there's something I don't know
[13:58] <mungbean> Sint Maarten (located in the northeastern Caribbean)
[13:58] <awilkins> My domain only taken in four TLDs. One being .com (*grr* GoDaddy scumballs)
[13:58] <neuro> awilkins: install isoqueryroot@defiant:~# isoquery sx
[13:58] <neuro> SX	SXM	702	Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
[13:58] <awilkins> One being an EE nation (cyrillic letters) one being China (well, chinese characters TLD)
[13:59] <neuro> oops, missing new line there
[13:59] <neuro> install isoquery:
[13:59] <neuro> root@defiant:~# isoquery sx
[13:59] <neuro> SX	SXM	702	Sint Maarten (Dutch part)
[13:59] <neuro> (replacement for old countrycodes package)
[13:59] <neuro> dwatkins: there is a reason: cashgrab
[13:59] <neuro> and snuggling up to the copyright people
[13:59] <dwatkins> neuro: ah yes, how naive of me ;)
[13:59] <neuro> the proposal has a 'registered trademark holder' sunrise
[14:00] <neuro> then a 'non-trademark holder' sunrise
[14:00] <neuro> like, thanks
[14:00] <awilkins> .eu is on sale
[14:00] <neuro> what, the whole region?
[14:00] <awilkins> £1.50 for a year. Or £20 for 2 ;-S
[14:00] <mungbean> eu is a bit of a skank
[14:01] <dwatkins> I've only ever seen one domain within .eu
[14:01] <mungbean> an eu expired and it cost £25 to get out of suspended mode
[14:01] <mungbean> we still owned it, but had to pay an admininstrative fee
[14:01] <neuro> dwatkins: http://europa.eu/index_en.htm
[14:01] <awilkins> Hah, 10 years of .co.uk for £30
[14:01] <awilkins> Bargain
[14:01] <neuro> um, wat
[14:01] <mungbean> who with?
[14:01] <neuro> that's < cost
[14:02] <awilkins> Gandi (ex tax)
[14:02] <awilkins> So 30 * 1.2 == £36 with VAT
[14:03] <awilkins> £4 a year or £3 a year for more than 1 year
[14:03] <awilkins> + VAT
[14:03] <awilkins> .eu is £85 for 10 years
[14:03] <awilkins> Not so bargain
[14:04] <neuro> oh actually
[14:04] <neuro> just checked the pricing
[14:04] <mungbean> why .co.uk so cheap?
[14:04] <awilkins> What's cost then?
[14:04] <neuro> 10 yrs is £30 incl VAT
[14:04] <SuperMatt> I'm interested to know why TLDs don't have a flat cost
[14:04] <neuro> so gandi are still making 6 quid profit off you
[14:04] <neuro> SuperMatt: they do
[14:04] <mungbean> awww thin.gy has gone
[14:05] <awilkins> 6 quid for 10 years work doesn't seem an atrocious profit
[14:05] <neuro> SuperMatt: it's just that competition is fierce amongst registrars, so some charge more than cost, some less
[14:05] <SuperMatt> ah, gotcha
[14:05] <awilkins> More like £5 mius the VAT
[14:05] <neuro> SuperMatt: each TLD operator sets its own pricing for registrars
[14:05] <Neoti_Desktop> Does anyone in here use DDWRT, i would like to have 4 WAN and 1 LAN, all i want is for DDWRT to route between all 5 subnets. simples.
[14:05] <neuro> e.g. nominet charge members (usually registrars) £4.20 incl VAT for 1 yr co.uk
[14:06] <SuperMatt> oh no, I meant that a co.uk should be the same as a .com or a .eu
[14:06] <neuro> whereas if you went directly to nominet as a customer, a co.uk for 2 yrs would cost you £96 incl VAT
[14:06] <neuro> SuperMatt: oh right
[14:06] <neuro> well given that every TLD and ccTLD is operated by different companies ...
[14:06] <awilkins> And 15% off for mor ethan 3 years registration, apparently
[14:06] <awilkins> Wooty woo
[14:07]  * neuro wonders how much he is charging for co.uk ...
[14:07]  * neuro checks
[14:07] <SuperMatt> I'm getting my domains from streamlinenet.co.uk
[14:07] <SuperMatt> I don't really care about getting any deals
[14:07] <SuperMatt> they're offered me good support when I've needed it, so whatevs.
[14:07]  * neuro buys domains from himself
[14:08] <dwatkins> SuperMatt: do they have a 'hide my address and contact info' option?
[14:08] <mungbean> i don't own any domains
[14:08] <SuperMatt> I believe they do
[14:08] <SuperMatt> want me to check
[14:08] <dwatkins> just curious, no rush :)
[14:08] <mungbean> don't see the point when i have work servesr to run irssi and owncloud on
[14:08] <neuro> hmm, seems i'm selling co.uk for 2 yrs for $14
[14:08] <neuro> which is about £8.69
[14:08] <SuperMatt> yup, I can protect my identity over at streamlinenet
[14:09] <SuperMatt> crikey, I have a lot of domains
[14:09] <mungbean> what for?
[14:09] <SuperMatt> just because
[14:09] <neuro> SuperMatt: go on, how many?
[14:09] <mungbean> you like spending money?
[14:09] <SuperMatt> I have a project in mind, and then fail to get it off the ground
[14:09] <SuperMatt> 11
[14:09] <neuro> bah
[14:10] <neuro> i have 10
[14:10] <neuro> plus another blah blah on top that aren't actually mine
[14:10] <neuro> <- opensrs reseller
[14:11] <neuro> SuperMatt: so what's your oldest domain?
[14:11] <SuperMatt> supermatt.net
[14:11] <neuro> 2006? acht, youngster :)
[14:11] <SuperMatt> hah
[14:12] <neuro> hornet-wifi:~ neuro$ whois zensoft.co.uk | grep "Registered on:"
[14:12] <neuro>         Registered on: 28-Aug-1998
[14:12] <SuperMatt> nice domain
[14:12] <neuro> hornet-wifi:~ neuro$ whois zensoft.net | grep "Record created on"
[14:12] <neuro>  Record created on 25-Oct-1999.
[14:12] <neuro> that's my two oldest ones
[14:12] <neuro> you're using route53?
[14:12] <neuro> how are you finding it?
[14:13] <SuperMatt> it's great
[14:13] <awilkins> I like that the "Resell your data?" radio defaults to "No"
[14:13] <SuperMatt> I pay something like 50p a month for each zone
[14:13] <SuperMatt> which compared to other places is damn cheap
[14:13]  * Hornet- sets fire to neuro
[14:14] <neuro> i run three nameservers (london, france, canada) and i'm always tempted to just ditch them by automating stuff out to aws
[14:14] <neuro> Hornet: um, ok?
 hornet-wifi:~ neu
[14:14] <Hornet> pings everywhere
[14:14] <SuperMatt> I do all my stuff through aws these days
[14:14] <neuro> Hornet: haha
[14:14] <neuro> unlucky
[14:14] <SuperMatt> yeah, I have matt on hilight, and that goes off all the time
[14:14] <neuro> my hostnames are starships from star trek
[14:15] <SuperMatt> I just run my website/shell from aws. I could use a managed solution for cheap, but it means I don't have control, and I like my control
[14:15] <neuro> USS Hornet, NCC-45231, Renaissance class (seen in TNG ep Redemption part 2)
[14:15] <neuro> i tried briefly running ubuntu instances for nameservers
[14:16] <neuro> it cost like 20 dollars a month
[14:16] <neuro> chucked it in
[14:16] <Hornet> lol
[14:16] <SuperMatt> my computers are called Bruce, Babs, Tim, PeeGee
[14:16] <SuperMatt> well, I like aws. As long as I don't get too many zones, I'll keep using it
[14:17] <neuro> mine are enterprise, challenger, columbia, saratoga, hathaway, cochrane, majestic, grissom, hornet (sorry Hornet), excelsior, melbourne, intrepid, defiant, valiant, ulysses, phoenix ...
[14:17]  * neuro just manages zones on a local system here then pushes updates out over rsync+ssh
[14:17]  * neuro can actually read BIND zones, so it isn't that bad
[14:19] <mungbean> can i search the gas safe register for a name rather than company? can't see how
[14:19] <awilkins> I use characters from anime
[14:19] <awilkins> Motoko, Aramaki, Totoro, Ryo-Oki
[14:19] <neuro> ooooh, hyphens
[14:20] <awilkins> Not like it's on a public domain
[14:20] <Hornet> heh
[14:20] <neuro> mine are
[14:20] <neuro> and i realise i've just blabbed a ton of hostnames
[14:20] <awilkins> Oh, and one Final Fantasy character, my HTPC server is aeris
[14:20] <neuro> so 1 + 1 and you can get my private IPs
[14:20] <neuro> not that it'll do you much good :)
[14:20] <Hornet> old-school gamer detected
[14:20] <SuperMatt> one thing I don't understand, is why more places don't make up a tld for their internal domain
[14:20] <Hornet> all the new translations use 'aerith'
[14:20] <Hornet> which can fuck right off
[14:20] <SuperMatt> when I'm playing with vms at work, I create a domain .sm
[14:21] <neuro> because separate tlds are a pain in the arse
[14:21] <awilkins> Yeah, I know, I played the PC version
[14:21] <SuperMatt> Hornet: no swearing in here!
[14:21] <Hornet> I can tell
[14:21] <neuro> Hornet: language
[14:21] <Hornet> pff
[14:21] <SuperMatt> for once I get to tell someone else of instead of being told off
[14:21] <mungbean> and neuro too
[14:21] <neuro> code of conduct, dude
[14:21] <SuperMatt> the student has become the master
[14:21] <mungbean> neuro just swore too
[14:21] <awilkins> Ooh, I now have an .eu domain
[14:21] <neuro> mungbean: my epithet was less offensive than hornets :)
[14:21] <SuperMatt> bravo
[14:21] <Hornet> I don't see how it matters tbh
[14:21] <awilkins> My .co.uk and .me.uk are in progress
[14:21] <Hornet> if someone can use IRC they can read mature language
[14:22] <SuperMatt> not always
[14:22] <mungbean> still, civilised people tend not to like it :P
[14:22] <SuperMatt> some people sit here with their kids
[14:22] <awilkins> I think the principle is that FreeNode is supposed to be about community and free software
[14:22] <Hornet> that's moralistic nonsense
[14:22] <mungbean> reddit comments with swear words in the title get a downvote from me :)
[14:22] <awilkins> And that if you use foul language you decrease that because you alienate parents / childre
[14:22] <mungbean> ?
[14:23] <Hornet> I can understand nsfw links being labelled as such, etc
[14:23] <Hornet> stuff like that is fine
[14:23] <mungbean> whatever happened to that offtopic channel that wasn't official?
[14:23] <Hornet> but in an adult community you will get adult language
[14:23] <neuro> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/chat
[14:23] <Hornet> ubuntu-uncensored you mean
[14:23] <SuperMatt> you mean omg!ubuntu! where I'm op and no one speaks?
[14:23] <neuro> "When participating in Ubuntu IRC channels, please follow the code of conduct." - http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct
[14:23] <mungbean> somewhat controlversial one, run by this girl
[14:23] <SuperMatt> everyone should totes come to #omg!ubuntu!
[14:24] <Hornet> if you mean em's one it changed to club-ubuntu
[14:24] <neuro> Hornet: i normally swear like a trooper on irc, in #ubuntu* i refrain, because it's the courteous thing to do
[14:24] <Hornet> ironically due to pressure to censor the fact that everywhere else was censored
[14:24] <neuro> and when i say swear like a trooper, i mean *all* swear words
[14:24] <Hornet> well, that's your decision
[14:24] <Hornet> personally I think it's fine
[14:25] <awilkins> There's a difference between censorship and community culture
[14:25] <Hornet> if someone wants to ban a 4-year + user then they can
[14:25] <awilkins> The server didn't asterisk the words out
[14:25] <Hornet> groupthink is a more dangerous version of censorship
[14:25] <neuro> personally i think it's fine to hear swearing on TV before the watershed
[14:25] <neuro> but I understand and tolerate the fact that it's not the way things work
[14:26] <neuro> not everyone >18 likes swearing
[14:26] <SuperMatt> I think swearing really all depends on the context, not the word
[14:26] <awilkins> I'm fine with swearing a bit in front of my daughter (8) if only because it gives you the opportunity to explain which words are considered bad
[14:26] <Hornet> anyway, I don't gratuitously swear, that's pointless, but if it's relevant to making the strength of my point felt then it's fine
[14:26] <neuro> it sounds like you're making a point for the sake of it
[14:26] <awilkins> I'm of much the same mind - it's useful for emphasis, it's a part of language
[14:26] <SuperMatt> for instance, you can say before the watershed "breast scans are important" but you can't say "touch my breasts"
[14:26] <SuperMatt> context is the rude part, not the words
[14:26] <Hornet> I'm making a point as it's part of the current conversation
[14:27] <Hornet> similarly you can be incredibly racist without using any racist words
[14:27] <Hornet> it's intentionality
[14:27] <neuro> that makes no sense
[14:27] <Hornet> eg someone could insult someone's mother using words you might find on fridge magnets
[14:27] <Hornet> but it would be no less offensive
[14:28] <neuro> and no-one's saying that's tolerated in #ubuntu*
[14:28] <Hornet> anyway, we're getting off topic
[14:28] <SuperMatt> we are indeed
[14:28] <neuro> wait, i thought this was part of the current conversation :)
[14:28] <Hornet> my point is the words are almost irrelevant to the intention
[14:28] <SuperMatt> lets talk about steam box, aka piston!
[14:28] <Hornet> wot, no ouya?
[14:28] <neuro> the words are massively relevant to the context
[14:28] <Hornet> but to think you can stop something being offensive by blacklisting certain words is nonsense
[14:28] <neuro> the context being that this is not a place where swear words are welcomed, to ensure an inclusive environment
[14:29] <neuro> jings
[14:29] <Hornet> anyone who needs that level of molly-coddling has no place on irc
[14:29] <Hornet> tbqh
[14:29] <neuro> dude
[14:29] <neuro> the point is
[14:29] <neuro> regardless of words used
[14:29] <neuro> be polite and courteous
[14:29] <neuro> which just happens to include please don't swear
[14:29] <Hornet> and I was
[14:29] <Hornet> I was simply making a point
[14:29] <Hornet> without being offensive to anybody
[14:30]  * neuro bangs head off keyboard
[14:30] <neuro> ioesfjoiefw
[14:30] <neuro> wow, that hurt
[14:30] <Hornet> if someone wants to get on a bandstand and point out that one particular word is 'naughty' then they can
[14:30] <davmor2> neuro: it's the sticky out bits on j and f that do it
[14:30] <neuro> you are entirely misunderstanding why someone said "don't swear"
[14:31] <Hornet> davmor2: clearly you've never used an acupoint keyboard
[14:31] <Hornet> no I understand entirely
[14:31] <neuro> davmor2: ah, those crazy blind people and their assistive nubbins
[14:31] <Hornet> but I think it's like trying to get a pub to ensure that nobody within the walls ever swears
[14:31] <Hornet> it's an adult environment, it'll happen
[14:31] <Hornet> even if it's a family pub
[14:32] <neuro> and when it happens, people will say "please don't swear" to try to prevent a further reoccurrence
[14:32] <neuro> it's not molly coddling or blacklisting or censorship, it's just common courtesy
[14:32] <Hornet> I would disagree entirely
[14:32] <neuro> you may disagree, but participation in #ubuntu* IRC channels demands adherence to the Code of Conduct
[14:33] <neuro> it's pretty straightforward
[14:33] <neuro> swear all you like elsewhere
[14:33] <neuro> but in the Ubuntu channels, please don't
[14:33] <neuro> in the same way someone would say please don't be racist in these channels
[14:33] <neuro> it's not inclusive behaviour
[14:33] <neuro> nor courteous
[14:33] <Hornet> that's an entirely different matter
[14:34] <neuro> no, it's not
[14:34] <neuro> swearing is just a part of general discourteousness
[14:34] <Hornet> so you're saying a choice of words has an equal effect on a community as deciding that certain people are unacceptable based on their skin colour?
[14:35] <Hornet> massive difference
[14:35] <neuro> depending on the words, yes
[14:35] <Hornet> that sir, is what's commonly referred to as bullshit :)
[14:35] <directhex> this isn't a productive discussion. easier to just say "comply or banhammer"
[14:35] <neuro> oh good grief
[14:36] <neuro> Hornet: i agree with you that i don't believe swearing is all that bad
[14:36] <neuro> *but* I understand that in *this* environment, it's not conducive to an inclusive air
[14:36] <neuro> hence, i follow the code of conduct while participating
[14:36] <ormiret> It doesn't really matter if there is any rational reason to consider swear words offensive: many people do. In the interests of not offending them it is discouraged here.
[14:36] <neuro> exactly
[14:36] <neuro> EXACTLY
[14:37] <Hornet> if people choose to be offended by something that simple then either they're religious recluses or below the age of 8
[14:37] <Hornet> I don't expect to encounter either on irc
[14:37] <neuro> that's very unfair
[14:38] <neuro> that's like saying "well, there's porn on the web, so why can't everyone just deal with it if it appears on your screen"
[14:38] <Hornet> like I said earlier in this conversation, nsfw matters, language by & large does not
[14:39] <neuro> some words *are* nsfw
[14:39] <Hornet> I wouldn't expect someone to be on #KKK during work hours, sure
[14:39] <neuro> please do use all of the FCC's "seven words" in front of a CEO and see how far you get
[14:40] <Hornet> pretty sure at various points I have actually :)
[14:40] <Hornet> anyway, I have more productive things to do than try to explain why self-censorship is an inherantly worse practice than external
[14:41] <davmor2> Hornet: You're really dragging this out... The rules of the Channel are abide by the COC it's that simple whether you like it or not is a pretty pointless argument
[14:41] <neuro> actually, let me rephrase my "seven words" comment
[14:41] <neuro> s/CEO/policeman/
[14:41] <Hornet> I've been here years, nobody's cared yet
[14:41] <neuro> we're caring
[14:42] <neuro> or at least I am
[14:42] <Hornet> good for you
[14:42] <neuro> what's the point of having a code of conduct if not to abide by it?
[14:42] <neuro> it's just good community citizenship
[14:42] <Hornet> to make certain people feel like they're important by creating and maintaining it?
[14:43] <neuro> point .                                                       X <- you, far from the point
[14:43] <Hornet> you asked a question :P
[14:43] <Hornet> anyway.
[14:43] <Hornet> like I said I have better things to do at the moment, so back later
[14:44]  * neuro sighs
[14:44] <neuro> i may as well have just banged my head off the keyboard for 20 minutes, it may have been more productive
[14:45] <Hornet> that would be a side-effect of arguing an invalid point, yes
[14:45] <neuro> that's the last time i try to defend the CoC for a while, at any rate
[14:45] <neuro> i thought you had better things to do?
[14:46] <Hornet> I do indeed
[14:47] <Seeker`> go do them then?
[14:48] <neuro> lol
[14:48] <kvarley> Mark Shuttleworth mentions that windows apps can be streamed to Ubuntu on some footage at CES this year. Is it possible to do that for the Adobe Creative Suite? If so, how?
[14:48] <neuro> he did?
[14:48] <ormiret> Have a windows machine running them nad connect via RDP or VNC
[14:49] <neuro> or use crossover to run locally
[14:49] <SuperMatt> kvarley: you need to have a citrix ics environment
[14:49] <neuro> no you don't
[14:50] <neuro> you can enable RDP on some versions of windows
[14:50] <neuro> usually pro/biz versions
[14:50] <kvarley> neuro: Yes, he was talking about putting apps in the data centre and streaming them to Ubuntu phones or PCs as thin clients
[14:50] <kvarley> To give access to legacy software
[14:50] <neuro> kvarley: huh, well you could probably do that now
[14:50] <davmor2> kvarley: you can now via rdp, citrix etc
[14:51] <kvarley> neuro: Yes, he was saying it already exists but it's what you could do to solve problems of legacy software requirements in the corporate sector
[14:51] <kvarley> RDP isn't fast enough for graphics apps
[14:51] <neuro> kvarley: he's probably taking about DaaS
[14:51] <neuro> e.g. VMware View
[14:52] <neuro> and you'd be surprised how fast RDP can be
[14:52] <neuro> i've streamed video over RDP on a LAN before
[14:53] <awilkins> RDP has special provisions for video (I'm presuming it may only work Windows -> Windows though)
[14:53] <kvarley> neuro: I just wondered if you could make it so a windows app would at like any other window in an Ubuntu session
[14:53] <kvarley> Rather than going through a viewer
[14:53] <awilkins> What I think should be do-able is storing RDP sessions as a screencast
[14:54] <awilkins> That would be both low bandwidth and high fidelity
[14:54] <popey> awilkins: no, works on linux too
[14:54] <popey> was demo'ed at UDS a year or two back
[14:54] <awilkins> Neato
[14:55] <neuro> kvarley: best way right now is crossover
[14:55] <neuro> run it locally
[14:55] <awilkins> TBH RDP is probably the best remote desktop server in my opinion
[14:55] <kvarley> neuro: Last time I checked it doesn't support the creative suite by Adobe tho
[14:55] <awilkins> NX is a close second but it's much more fiddly
[14:55] <popey> I hear good things about NX
[14:56] <neuro> awilkins: mac remote desktop is all kinds of awesome
[14:56] <neuro> popey: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[14:56] <neuro> NX is THE DEVIL
[14:56] <awilkins> I use three pieces of remoteware
[14:57] <awilkins> ssh, RDP and Synergy
[14:57] <SuperMatt> I've never managed to get NX working
[14:57] <awilkins> Synergy not really a remote desktop though
[14:57] <kvarley> Problem is Adobe are too ignorant to port their products to Linux despite boasting about a portable codebase, so I'm left with running virtualbox to access their software.
[14:57] <neuro> SuperMatt: it's evil, evil, nasty stuff
[14:57] <awilkins> The key to getting NX working is furtling with encryption keys in the /etc folder
[14:57] <neuro> don't get me wrong, it's GREAT when it works
[14:57] <neuro> but when it goes bad, it goes bad A LOT
[14:57] <neuro> awilkins: um, wat?
[14:57] <neuro> just ssh it
[14:58] <awilkins> neuro, In my experience you have to change the public key before it will work
[14:58] <neuro> not IME
[14:58] <neuro> at least not with FreeNX
[14:58] <awilkins> neuro, But this may just be that I don't trust the default key that ships with it
[14:58] <neuro> which was a bag of hurt
[14:58] <awilkins> Not set it up recently
[14:59] <davmor2> kvarley: it should run under wine
[15:03] <ali1234> NO
[15:03] <ali1234> adobe creative suite does NOT run under wine
[15:03] <ali1234> not now, not ever
[15:04] <ali1234> photoshop might
[15:04] <ali1234> an old version anyway
[15:04] <ali1234> premier does not. after effects does not.
[15:04] <neuro> what, you mean like the version that adobe "accidentally" gave away?
[15:05] <ali1234> encore does not
[15:05] <neuro> CS2 is "freely" downloadable from adobe.com
[15:05] <ali1234> it always has been
[15:05] <neuro> no, no it hasn't
[15:05] <ali1234> the "trial" version is the full software
[15:05] <ali1234> all you need is a serial to make it work
[15:05] <ali1234> (or a crack)
[15:05] <neuro> they threw up full downloads with serial numbers because they were switching off the CS2 activation servers
[15:05] <ali1234> same is true of the new version
[15:06] <neuro> err, no
[15:06] <neuro> http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html
[15:06] <neuro> lookit
[15:06] <neuro> everything bar after effects
[15:06] <neuro> the full smash
[15:06] <neuro> with serials
[15:06] <ali1234> lolol
[15:06] <ali1234> ok, that's funny
[15:06] <ali1234> it's not like anyone who wants it hasn't already pirated it though
[15:06] <neuro> they're saying you still need a licence to run
[15:06]  * neuro hasn't
[15:06] <ali1234> well they would say that
[15:07] <neuro> well yeah that's the contentious point
[15:07] <ali1234> i mean if you don't care, piratebay is that way ->
[15:07] <neuro> loads of tech press already noticed
[15:07] <neuro> piratebay?
[15:07] <neuro> i'm on sky and BT, i can't access that site
[15:07] <neuro> *cough*
[15:07] <ali1234> incidentally
[15:07] <ali1234> CS2 is not "old" enough for any of it to work in wine
[15:07] <neuro> shame
[15:07] <ali1234> except perhaps photoshop
[15:08] <ali1234> it all runs perfectly in virtualbox though
[15:08] <neuro> but not in a "native" stylee
[15:08] <ali1234> sure it is
[15:08] <ali1234> if your CPU is less than 5 years old and not a cheap intel one
[15:08] <neuro> unless vbox has some parallels ubiquity mode that i'm not aware of
[15:09] <ali1234> i have no idea what you are talking about
[15:09] <neuro> no, i mean windowed without the windows desktop underneath (if you see what i mean)
[15:09] <ali1234> anyway it runs perfectly well
[15:09] <ali1234> oh yeah virtualbox seamless mode
[15:09] <ali1234> yeah it works well
[15:09] <neuro> bah
[15:09] <neuro> not ubiquity
[15:09] <neuro> coherence
[15:09] <ali1234> still dn't know what you are talking about
[15:10] <neuro> http://download.parallels.com/desktop/v5/docs/en/Parallels_Desktop_Users_Guide/23413.htm
[15:10] <neuro> windows from the virtualised OS appear as though native to the host OS
[15:10] <ali1234> http://i.techrepublic.com.com/blogs/seamless.png
[15:10] <neuro> that's the bunny
[15:11] <dwatkins> http://www.technologytell.com/apple/110494/adobe-is-not-giving-away-free-cs2-downloads/
[15:11] <ali1234> i used to even have a ubuntu type theme for windows
[15:11] <neuro> i forgot vbox could do that
[15:11] <neuro> i never use it now anyway, was too buggy and crashy for me
[15:11] <neuro> (running ubuntu on win7)
[15:11] <neuro> the VM would just snap out of existence without warning
[15:11] <dwatkins> seamless is great, works great (when it works...)
[15:11] <neuro> and sometimes would just reboot the host machine too
[15:12] <SuperMatt> all right, php5.3 is going to reach end of life in march. Is there an *official* ubuntu way to upgrade to 5.4 in precise?
[15:12] <SuperMatt> I'd rather not touch PPAs
[15:12] <neuro> bwahahaha
[15:12] <neuro> backports?
[15:12] <SuperMatt> backports doen't have an updated version
[15:12] <diplo> Well they will need to support upgrade path ?
[15:13] <diplo> it's an lts
[15:13] <neuro> they don't need to support an upgrade path
[15:13] <neuro> that's the point of an LTS
[15:13] <neuro> you want fixed point releases on board
[15:13] <SuperMatt> yeah, but it's a major version, and could break a lot of stuff for people
[15:13] <diplo> I suppose
[15:13] <neuro> how will it break stuff?
[15:14] <neuro> going EOL won't stop it working
[15:14] <SuperMatt> no, but upgrading to 5.4 could break people's sites, so the upgrade process to 5.4 needs to be... manual
[15:14] <SuperMatt> basically, I should have the option to install a package php5.4
[15:14] <neuro> the upgrade process, if any, will not be an official one
[15:14] <neuro> you do
[15:14] <neuro> PPAs
[15:14] <neuro> or from source
[15:15] <neuro> but from official LTS sources, doubtful
[15:15] <diplo> There is a blueprint for it SuperMatt
[15:15] <SuperMatt> diplo: where are you seeing this?
[15:15] <kvarley> davmor2: Does Illustrator work under Wine? What version? I never had any luck running it previously
[15:16] <ali1234> illustrator is probably ok
[15:16] <diplo> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-php54
[15:16] <neuro> kvarley: http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/
[15:16] <SuperMatt> my other option is to upgrade my webserver to quantal
[15:16] <ali1234> it's the video stuff that has basically no chance of ever working
[15:16] <ali1234> those are also the tools that have no serious open source competition
[15:16] <SuperMatt> diplo: thanks, I think I'm gonna have to subscribe to that
[15:17] <ali1234> illustrator is not really any better than inkscape for most uses
[15:17] <kvarley> neuro: All known not to work under crossover
[15:17] <neuro> it's marked completed
[15:17] <neuro> Status: This has been a hard, back and forth process, and I am not entirely happy with the result, but I don't feel there was anything more we could do. With Suhosin unavailable for 5.4.0, we have decided to ship 5.3.10 with the full protections of Suhosin and its known working state rather than 5.4.0 without Suhosin. With beta2 all but released (undergoing final testing) with 5.3.10, there isn't much more we can do. Thanks to everyone who put their ti
[15:17] <neuro> your option seems to be https://launchpad.net/~ondrej/+archive/php5
[15:18] <SuperMatt> indeed
[15:18] <SuperMatt> that scares me somewhat
[15:18] <kvarley> ali1234: It's just the time taken to learn Illustrator which is the industry standard tool is so long so that's why I'm investigating getting it working
[15:18] <diplo> Daviey is mentioned in there, or could ask in #ubuntu-server SuperMatt ?
[15:19] <ali1234> who uses crossover anyway? use wine
[15:19] <neuro> kvarley: you'd be better off just ponying up the 60-70 quid for a copy of win7 home premium and virtualising that
[15:19] <kvarley> ali1234: +1
[15:19] <ali1234> yes, virtualbox
[15:19] <neuro> at least you'll know it works
[15:19] <kvarley> neuro: I stated earlier that I'm currently doing that :)
[15:19]  * neuro shuts up :)
[15:19] <kvarley> heh
[15:20] <ali1234> don't bother with wine. even if you get it working it will be flaky and act weird, especially fonts
[15:20] <kvarley> If Adobe would jump down from their high horse and port their code it'd be awesome. But they have no intention of doing so, which makes me dislike them strongly.
[15:21] <neuro> i think if they thought there was a market for it that they could recoup their costs from, they would go for it
[15:21] <neuro> obviously they don't think that
[15:21] <kvarley> neuro: There IS a market for it, it's just too small in their eyes
[15:21] <dwatkins> how big is the Linux desktop market, 2% of users?
[15:21] <neuro> that's ... what i said
[15:21] <neuro> :)
[15:22] <kvarley> neuro: Yeah sorry, sent before you sent second msg
[15:22] <kvarley> dwakins: Not sure, but imagine all the businesses who could ditch windows if it was ported properly to Linux
[15:22] <neuro> dwatkins: wikipedia says 1.19%
[15:22] <dwatkins> w3schools says 5% iirc
[15:22] <kvarley> Since designers and creative types won't care about the OS, they just need to be able to launch and use their apps
[15:22] <SuperMatt> thing is that linux market != linux business market
[15:22] <dwatkins> I don't know if that's just browsers etc.
[15:22] <neuro> http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0
[15:23] <SuperMatt> the market for adobe stuff in business could be much larger than 5%
[15:23] <dwatkins> also, it depends how much effort is required to port the code, of course
[15:23] <dwatkins> if you have to spend 50% of your time porting and supporting applications for 5% of users, that's not ideal
[15:23] <neuro> kvarley: you'll probably find the number of business who would want to ditch windows and still run adobe software would just get macs instead
[15:23]  * neuro hugs his macs
[15:23] <kvarley> dwatkins: They've boasted about their lightweight and portable codebase many times before online, so either they're lying or can't be bothered.
[15:23] <neuro> both, probably
[15:23] <dwatkins> kvarley: oh, I wasn't aware of those statements, nor their context
[15:24] <kvarley> dwatkins: Quick search should bring them up. It happened many times on forums and their customer support and chats with devs. Not high up sources but they gave a good gist of the company stance
[15:24] <SuperMatt> adobe have been very clear on their reasons: the colour management in linux is poor.
[15:25] <kvarley> neuro: But macs cost a lot and windows licenses aren't exactly getting cheaper
[15:25] <neuro> macs don't cost that much if you're prepared to shop around a bit or buy refurb
[15:25] <kvarley> SuperMatt: So it's another thing to blame on the proprietary graphics drivers front?
[15:25] <neuro> and in terms of capex and depreciation, they are better than wintel
[15:26] <neuro> and windows licences are very cheap if you're a large biz or enterprise
[15:26] <kvarley> neuro: But vs Linux they lose
[15:26] <neuro> why vs Linux they lose?
[15:26] <SuperMatt> kvarley: I'm not sure about that, but essentially I don't think Adobe will touch linux until everyone can agree to do colour one way, rather than 1000 different standards
[15:26] <kvarley> Linux gives you a massive range of hardware to choose from and gives you support for way longer than a Macs life
[15:27] <kvarley> SuperMatt: Maybe they're forgetting that THEY are the standard setters ;)
[15:27] <neuro> why would i want a massive range of hardware to choose from? :)
[15:27] <kvarley> neuro: To better cater to your needs and spend less in the process
[15:27] <neuro> but my needs are all software
[15:27] <kvarley> neuro: Plus your price estimations are off. Mac = 2x the PC equivalent
[15:27] <neuro> o rly
[15:28] <dwatkins> my Macs have lasted twice as long as my PCs, though
[15:28] <kvarley> neuro: This was assuming if the software was available on Linux too :)
[15:28] <kvarley> dwatkins: How come? What hardware - manufactured or home built?
[15:28] <daubers> dwatkins: That's only because it takes you twice as long to recover from the initial expense :P
[15:28] <neuro> if i want a cheap dell vostro that will fall apart after heavy use, then sure, i guess
[15:28] <kvarley> neuro: yes, I got a more powerful PC for half the cost of a mac
[15:28] <awilkins> The only reason my PCs get changed these days is dead hardware or more demanding apps / games
[15:29] <kvarley> neuro: I never said anything about getting cheap hardware, just reasonably priced hardware :0
[15:29] <neuro> kvarley: with a tenth of the build quality no doubt
[15:29] <kvarley> *:)
[15:29] <awilkins> And now I'm on a quad core i7 with 8GB of RAM I think games are probably the only pusher
[15:29]  * neuro ahems
[15:29] <neuro> System Info: Model:  MacBookPro9 · CPU Speed:  8 @ 2.6 GHz · L2:  256 KB · L3:  6 MB · RAM:  8 GB · OS X:  Version 10.8.2 (Build 12C3006) · Hostname:  hornet · User:  neuro · Client:  Linkinus 2.4.3/25089 · Style:  I Are Sea!
[15:29] <neuro> hee
[15:30] <neuro> quad core i7, 8 threads baby
[15:30] <mungbean> what's the story on the valve console?
[15:30] <neuro> it's probably going to suck?
[15:30] <neuro> but lots of people will probably buy it?
[15:30] <awilkins> It's a three board modular PC
[15:30] <neuro> but not enough to shake the domination of xbox/sony/nintendo?
[15:31] <awilkins> Their retail rates are in excess of $500
[15:31] <neuro> s/lots of people/hardly anyone/
[15:31] <awilkins> For the one with the crap integrated graphics and a 32GB SSD
[15:31] <awilkins> It's a really nice form factor but the price is too high
[15:32] <awilkins> http://xi3.com/buy_now.php
[15:32] <neuro> HOW MUCH (little)???
[15:32] <neuro> 32GB?!
[15:32] <awilkins> Oh, sorry, 16GB SSD
[15:32] <awilkins> Not RAM
[15:32] <awilkins> 2G of RAM
[15:32] <neuro> 16GB?!
[15:32] <neuro> that's even worse!
[15:32] <awilkins> Yeah
[15:32] <kvarley> Anybody see the 1TB flash drive unveiled today? Looks sweet
[15:32] <neuro> yeah i knew what you meant
[15:32] <awilkins> (NB - Windows requires 32GB or more)
[15:32] <gord> worth noting that that is the price of the original hardware that company has been shipping around for a good while, valve would probably customise it and then sell it at a loss, then make their money in steam sales
[15:33] <awilkins> It's a nice case, and a nice external storage case (see further down on page)
[15:33] <awilkins> I'd like one as an HTPC running MythTV, but it's too much
[15:34] <neuro> given that steam have a sale every other week, i wonder how valve would actually *make* money? :)
[15:34] <awilkins> And too inflexible. I want to buy that external case and stick my own spinning rust in it
[15:34] <mungbean> whats the graphics chip?
[15:35] <directhex> valve have a 30% split on the final sale price of everything on steam
[15:35] <awilkins> Doesn't say
[15:35] <directhex> publishers get 70%
[15:35] <neuro> 30% of 50% off though ...
[15:35] <directhex> you asked!
[15:35] <awilkins> Their website is being pummelled by Piston searchers right now I think
[15:37] <neuro> see their last failed kickstarter for more info then: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/262476727/xi3-help-us-usher-in-the-post-pc-era
[15:37] <directhex> "Xi3 wouldn't discuss price for Piston, but commented that the Steam Box is based on its "performance level" X7A offering, which is priced at $999. Xi3 declined to comment on what would differentiate Piston hardware-wise from a standard X7A."
[15:37] <neuro> directhex: i did, didn't i? :)
[15:37] <neuro> from the looks of it, both classes of system have some sort of unnamed DX11-compatible chipset
[15:37] <neuro> probably using system ram
[15:38] <neuro> since neither spec mentions discrete ram for gpu
[15:38] <directhex> onboard amd, i guess
[15:39] <awilkins> Yeah, don't the AMDs have an on-die GPU now?
[15:39] <mungbean> valve can re-spec it though
[15:39] <neuro> true
[15:39] <mungbean> mainly the gpu
[15:40] <directhex> amd A10-4600M
[15:40] <directhex> that's my guess.
[15:41] <directhex> all the current xi3 stuff is amd based, and their kickstarter said the x7a would be 3.2ghz quadcore with 384 gpu cores
[15:41] <directhex> the a10-4600m matches that
[15:41] <awilkins> Replacing my current HTPC (which is a noisy full size desktop case) with one of these would be nice
[15:41] <awilkins> But would have to be part of a larger program to "go HD"
[15:41] <awilkins> Still on an SD CRT
[15:44] <mungbean> amd is a fail on linux thoug
[15:44] <directhex> i know, that'll be a major hurdle
[15:44] <directhex> i suspect valve are breaking heads at amd hq
[15:44] <mungbean> why choose the worst possible sitation?
[15:45] <awilkins> They'll probably ship it with Windows
[15:45] <mungbean> :-|
[15:45] <mungbean> that would be a fail too
[15:45] <directhex> there isn't space in that kind of form factor for a discrete cpu
[15:45] <directhex> so that leaves intel with intel hd4000, or amd
[15:45] <awilkins> But a no-brainer - want to support the most games? Use Windows.
[15:45] <directhex> amd is faster, *if* the drivers don't suck
[15:45] <directhex> the chance of drivers not sucking is higher than the chance of intel hd4000 not sucking
[15:46] <neuro> :)
[15:46] <neuro> hd4000 is the reason i didn't buy a new mac mini :P
[15:46] <directhex> and amd are in trouble financially so if valve promises to ship a couple of million units in year 1, amd will do *anything* they say
[15:46] <neuro> couple of million?
[15:46] <neuro> u mad? :)
[15:46] <awilkins> Isn't Intel the best for just flatland work though?
[15:47] <awilkins> (in terms of best-compatible-with-Linux)?
[15:47] <directhex> neuro, what's wrong with a couple of million units?
[15:48] <neuro> xbox 360 has sold on avg 10m per year over 7 years
[15:48] <neuro> and that's with microsoft and third parties spending millions on marketing
[15:49] <neuro> just checking numbers
[15:49] <neuro> they sold 1.5m in year 1
[15:49] <mungbean> quite pricey thou
[15:50] <directhex> ignore all the pricing
[15:50] <neuro> 360 launch price in US was $399
[15:50] <directhex> you are being lied to if you pay attention to the pricing on standalone xi3 stuff and assume that is steambox pricing
[15:51] <neuro> the real question is, how much are valve willing to eat in terms of loss making on hw
[15:52] <directhex> that depends on how much their unit costs are
[15:52] <directhex> which depends on how much volume they aim for
[15:56] <mungbean> windows licences won't be part of the cost
[15:59] <directhex> okay. Looks like the "bulk" price on that AMD chip is $106
[15:59] <directhex> "bulk" meaning 5 units or more
[16:00] <directhex> the price for 500,000 units will be rather lower
[16:00]  * awilkins wonders how long it will be until a "root your Piston and install MythTV on it" guide occurs
[16:08] <kvarley> The i/o on the steambox is insane
[16:09] <awilkins> 2x SATA 4X USB3 4x USB 2 isn't it?
[16:09] <directhex> again, don't assume that what you're seeing is final. use it as a starting point for educated guesses
[16:10] <awilkins> Indeed
[16:10] <directhex> we can make an educated guess that it won't have more than 2G RAM - valve's work has been in 32-bit land, so more than that is pointless
[16:10] <directhex> we can assume it'll have a limited SSD to keep the price low - 64G is twice a premium wiiu - and will have the ability to use a USB disk for additional storage (again, see wiiu)
[16:11] <kvarley> 1x Ethernet, 2x Mini Displayport or mini hdmi, 1 fullsize DP/HDMI port, 2x powered usb, 2x usb 2.0, 4x usb 3.0, 3.5mm mic in, 3.5mm headphones out, optical audio, 4x eSATAp ports
[16:11] <directhex> frankly i can't find a way to make this thing unprofitable at $400 retail. maybe even profitable at $300 in sufficient bulk.
[16:11] <kvarley> Doubt it will be about profit for Valve
[16:11] <kvarley> More a way to get more people onto Steam
[16:11] <awilkins> "Xi3 chief marketing officer David Politis told Polygon that Piston will offer up to 1 TB of interal storage and offer modular component updates, including the option to upgrade the PC's CPU and RAM"
[16:11] <awilkins> Up[ to 1TB sounds like a spinning disk
[16:11] <kvarley> I can see this working, but not with the general publish yet
[16:12] <kvarley> *general public
[16:12] <awilkins> But hey, that's a marketing officer
[16:13] <kvarley> The expansion board thing is cool
[16:13] <kvarley> Love that their site is down lol
[16:13] <gord> directhex, you might be forgetting that valve only has digital downloads, wiiu uses disks. small ssd's really aren't an option for a steam box
[16:14] <directhex> the xi3 x7a is the base platform on which the steam box will be built. again, don't assume that what you see is a steambox, it's an x7a. ports will not neccessarily be identical
[16:14] <kvarley> Wii U supports external hard drives on top of the nand space too
[16:14] <kvarley> directhex: Still nice to see that much I/O on one of their boxes
[16:14] <directhex> gord, you can download games from the estore on wiiu. hell, sony sells a 12gb ps3 that still lets you download games
[16:15] <gord> directhex, yeah, but can is different than must
[16:15] <gord> and with the basic wiiu package. can is a struggle at best
[16:15] <directhex> investing heavily in nand today is a mistake. prices are too volatile to make it a smart move
[16:15] <directhex> 32GB is enough for lots of *most* blockbuster pc games
[16:15] <directhex> especially when you can redownload any title as often as you like
[16:15] <directhex> it's not much for an MMO
[16:16] <awilkins> Most of the games I install seem to be 5GB - 10GB
[16:16] <gord> games are hitting 20gb a pop these days, then there is the OS and all the other gubbins to deal with
[16:17] <awilkins> Yeah, they'd be daft not to have a "Hey, store all your music n'stuff on here too" feature
[16:17] <kvarley> gord: Battlefield 3 with all the DLC is over 30GB now 0.o
[16:17] <awilkins> Wouldn't be surprised to see a merging of "Big Picture" with Unity Dash
[16:17] <gord> not going to get better once the next xbox comes out with bluray support
[16:17] <awilkins> And all that Ubuntu TV stuff
[16:17] <directhex> yes, that changes things
[16:17] <kvarley> Has anybody noticed Valve's stance upon running other software on the box yet? Will be interesting to see if they would let you install other OS' on there
[16:18] <directhex> right now, size of a dvd, on 360, helps keep sizes grounded
[16:18] <popey> kvarley: it doesnt exist yet, hard to say
[16:18] <kvarley> gord: Xbox 720 is getting BluRay support? *facepalm*
[16:18] <gord> well its not getting hd-dvd support
[16:19] <directhex> games on SD!
[16:19] <kvarley> popey: Ah ok, would be very nice if they did. They obviously have no reason to allow that kind of thing except to be nice to the minority. Could be a similar deal to those Android TV sticks that let you boot off USB or SD media
[16:19] <kvarley> gord: Could be proprietary format like the Wii U? I doubt Microsoft will want to pay Sony for anything
[16:19] <kvarley> directhex: You could do that on the old Wii xD
[16:19] <czajkowski> gord: you're back!
[16:20] <directhex> kvarley, wii u is blu-ray. mostly.
[16:20] <kvarley> directhex: But it's not "Blu-Ray" to avoid licensing?
[16:20] <directhex> kvarley, right.
[16:20] <gord> kvarley, depends if they want to be able to play movies, if not, no point in spending the licencing monies
[16:20] <directhex> no movie support, and nonstandard filesystems and stuff
[16:20] <gord> czajkowski, yup, back from irc-holidays
[16:21] <kvarley> gord: I imagine if they don't allow disc playback they'll be able to push people to use the Live store or whatever it's called
[16:31] <czajkowski> aquarius:  daker> does anyone know if u1 does have a qml sdk ?
[16:31] <aquarius> czajkowski, depends which bits of U1
[16:32] <aquarius> czajkowski, where did that get asked?
[16:32] <czajkowski> aquarius: jono channel
[16:32] <czajkowski> ubuntu-community-team
[16:40] <popey> directhex: i want an internet connected fridge
[16:40] <popey> in fact, i could just stick an android tablet to the wall, attach a scanner and scan everything in/out, or when it's 25/50/75 33/66% used
[16:40] <awilkins> They're doing that for our meeting rooms at work
[16:41] <awilkins> Mounting a tablet to the wall outside for bookings
[16:42] <awilkins> This is an office leased from an office rental company though
[16:42] <awilkins> Regus
[16:44] <gord> i remember seing a fridge that did that on tomorrows world when i was young
[16:45] <popey> even just saving out a text file of what's been removed recently would help when shopping
[16:45] <popey> and also remind you of how much you spend on stuff ☺
[16:45] <awilkins> I want something like that that sorts in aisle traversal order
[16:46] <gord> it could tell you when you are about to eat some gone off milk with your cereal
[16:46] <BigRedS> I've always disliked the manual tedium required there
[16:46] <awilkins> Naah, the human nose is the best gone-off food detector
[16:46] <BigRedS> If I'm going to come to rely on it I don't want it to rely on me scanning barcodes whenever I take anything out of the fridge
[16:46] <awilkins> RFID
[16:46] <popey> is there an API for turning barcodes into products tho?
[16:46] <BigRedS> yeah
[16:46] <awilkins> But that supposes packaging
[16:46] <gord> google goggles sure does it
[16:46] <awilkins> Tomatoes don't have RFID in them (yet)
[16:47] <BigRedS> My first imagination of it used cameras and some hilariously impossible photo recognition stuff
[16:47] <BigRedS> but now that's less impossible, and RFID's better anyway
[16:47] <gord> actually, you could litterally have a camera and just google image search the product, you'll probably get the right result a a suggested title
[16:48] <popey> yeah, front facing camera could work
[16:50] <mungbean> i like the xkcd fridge
[16:50] <mungbean> http://xkcd.com/1109/
[16:57] <gord> if you had a camera you could also hold the recept up to the camera and have it automatically figure out what the cost of each individual thing was
[16:58] <awilkins> Or just run off the barcode and integrate with the Tesco.com database etc
[17:00] <awilkins> With of course, frightening privacy implications
[17:01] <mungbean> i left my fridge door open ovrnight the other day and the lamp cooked everything on top shelf
[17:01] <awilkins> The bulb in mine is blown :-)
[17:01] <mungbean> and i ate mouldy bread by kmistake
[17:02] <awilkins> You'll either cure a malevolent space disease that would have wiped out half the western hemisphere and left the rest sterile, or go mad.
[17:04] <mungbean> the true story was that i was nervous and paranoid for 6 hours
[17:04] <mungbean> green/blue mould on bread means a massive invisible mould cluster underneath
[17:05] <gord> how mould works is that everything is absolutely fine until midnight on the eat by date then it all suddenly turns bad
[17:10] <awilkins> xi3.com have finally given up the ghost
[17:10] <awilkins> 503... they must be overjoyed, TBH
[17:13] <awilkins> Hah, Adobe CS2 up for free
[17:13] <awilkins> If I had a use for any of it I'd download it
[17:13] <awilkins> http://www.adobe.com/downloads/cs2_downloads/index.html
[17:22] <popey> hmm, or use one of those business card scanners to scan the barcode
[17:34] <gord> put one next to the fridge, one next to the bin
[17:46] <brobostigon> any suggestions as to how i track down, my eeeps networking sudenly having a goslow since sunday? i habe done no software updates, now changed any network settings. when in comparison on my nexus7, same network things work fine.
[17:47] <brobostigon> eeepc*
[17:47] <brobostigon> nor*
[17:52] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: wired or wireless network?
[17:53] <brobostigon> wireless
[17:53] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: did a neighbour install wifi on the same channel, or did he start downloading a lot?
[17:53] <MartijnVdS> or, maybe something is sending/receiving a lot of packets?
[17:54] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: my nexus7 is wifi also, so woildnt that affect that also?
[17:54] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: only if you're downloading/uploading a lot on it.. I'd expect old (802.11b) devices to interfere more than new (802.11n) ones
[17:55] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: nope, i have nothjng but a terminal running, and it wont even ssh smoothly, it is that slow.
[17:55] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: that's bad
[17:55] <MartijnVdS> what does "iw wlan0 link" say?
[17:56] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: which bit do you need?
[17:56] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: can you pastebin it all (should be around 5-6 lines?)
[17:57] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: pastebinit, what syntax?
[17:59] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: dunno
[18:00] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: paste.debian.net/222895
[18:04] <MartijnVdS> looks OK -- it has a 48 mbit connection, at -63dBm -- which is normal if you're not too far from the AP
[18:05] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: i am 4 metres away from it.
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> anything in dmesg?
[18:06] <MartijnVdS> or /var/log (about WPA?)
[18:06] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: not that i can see.
[18:06] <brobostigon> minute.
[18:09] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: nothing that looks abnormal.
[18:17] <MartijnVdS> ifconfig -> does it show "errors:" ?
[18:18] <MartijnVdS> "iw wlan0 scan | less" (maybe "scan dump") -- does that show any other networks on the same channel, or near yours?
[18:19] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: there is one other network, in the same channel range, that just about registers signal.
[18:22] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: what happens if you change your channel to one that's at least 5 different from the current one? (one of 1, 6, 11 is the best)
[18:23] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: on the router? will this affect other people from connecting?
[18:24] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: all devices will reconnect, but that shuold be automagic
[18:24] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: ok, minute
[18:31] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: ok, i have changed to the channel to 11.
[18:56] <ali1234> what is the open source alternative to exchange server?
[18:56] <ali1234> specifically for contacts and calendar sync
[18:56] <popey> zimbra?
[18:58] <ali1234> is it light weight?
[18:59] <ali1234> what i need is something that talks caldav and also exchange.
[18:59] <ali1234> to replace the google MfE sync that they have switched off now
[19:03] <ali1234> what does ubuntu phone use for sync btw?
[19:03] <davmor2> ali1234: in comparison to exchange yes :)
[19:04] <ali1234> the answer better be caldav
[19:05] <ali1234> zimbra needs a proprietary extension to do exchange sync according to wikipedia
[19:05] <davmor2> ali1234: there is zarafa too http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/biztools/article.php/3932591/Top-5-Open-Source-Alternatives-to-Microsoft-Exchange.htm
[19:06] <ali1234> also i only want contacts and calendar support. most of this stuff only does email
[19:08] <ali1234> actually exchange might be totally unnecessary... i think all nokia phone do this on bluetooth as well
[19:08] <ali1234> that would probably be easier
[19:09] <popey> ali1234: pass
[19:09] <ali1234> https://syncevolution.org/wiki/sync-your-phone-bluetooth looks like what i need
[19:10] <ali1234> plus a plugin ffor it that talks caldav etc
[19:10] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: that seemed to have fixed it, why?
[21:03] <awilkins> Yeah, ActiveSync is patented and they charge licenses to implement it
[21:03]  * awilkins is responding to discussion from 2 hrs ago
[21:16] <scratman> irc.freenode.org, #videolan
[21:29] <solarcloud_3scrn> My A.D.D. friend once asked me, in a fleet of depression, whether or not there was a video website 'about him' .. Funnily enough, the guy on the opposite dinner table leaned over and said "there is, ya know !"
[21:36] <scratman> #mixxx
[21:36] <scratman> opps
[21:36] <scratman> irc.freenode.org, #mixxx
[21:36] <scratman> jeez
[21:39] <mgdm> try '/join' in front of that?
[22:04] <solarcloud_3scrn> Apparently Mint beats Ubuntu.. http://www.rlslog.net/linux-format-uk-february-2013-p2p/#comments  .. [I'd try extabit.com]
[22:05] <solarcloud_3scrn> .. or I'll know in 29 minutes !!
[22:08] <popey> that doesn't look like a legit download site
[22:12] <solarcloud_3scrn> Woops .. my bad .. should have been for hitchcock, sorry.
[23:55] <solarcloud_3scrn> Tescro run went well . 19 items Av. price 18.42p (pence). 8 coleslaw .. not sure if the cat will warm to it thou.