[06:08] <mesquka> Hi
[07:54] <mesquka> when can we expect ROM's for this?
[08:03] <popey> mesquka: you know the answer to that question already
[08:10] <mesquka> ???
[08:11] <mesquka> not disclosed?
[08:15] <Walther> mesquka: see the topic
[08:15] <mesquka> ok
[08:16] <mesquka> Thanks
[10:57] <mesquka> Hi
[13:31] <aquarius> dpm, if I'm creating a phone app, how do I know how big to make the window?
[13:32] <aquarius> dpm, that is: imagine I want to have, for example, 6 Rectangles in a Row which is the width of the screen. I can use units.gu, but I don't know how big a screen is in gu
[13:33] <aquarius> so I'm a bit confused by how the units stuff helps
[13:38] <dpm> aquarius, it seems you're not the only one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/qml-toolkit/+bug/1096341. You can get the conversion from gu to pixels from http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/resolution-independence.html - if that does not help, I'd suggest pinging bzoltan, as he's way more knowledgeable than me on this subject
[13:39] <aquarius> dpm, heh. I read the stuff about resolution independence, indeed. I'll talk to zoltan :)
[13:40] <dpm> ok, cool. I'll see if I can get someone from the SDK team to be on the public channel
[13:42] <aquarius> wise
[13:42] <aquarius> hey bzoltan1 :)
[13:42] <bzoltan1> aquarius:  hello there
[13:42] <aquarius> so, units.gu. i don't get it :)
[13:43]  * popey listens also
[13:43]  * popey pokes AlanBell 
[14:10] <AlanBell> hi aquarius
[14:10] <aquarius> heya AlanBell
[14:11] <AlanBell> units.gu needs more of a justification for it's existence doesn't it
[14:13] <AlanBell> "The grid unit defines a visual rhythm in Ubuntu" I think that visual rhythm is what it is about
[14:14] <AlanBell> rather than any kind of resolution independence (which it doesn't achieve)
[14:30] <user82> maybe this had been asked a thousand times: but are there any official announcements which phone the images will work on? or rumors esecially for nexus 4?
[14:34] <Tak> it has, and the only phone that's been used for demos has been the galaxy nexus
[14:35] <user82> thanks Tak
[14:35] <user82> i kinda need a new phone now..but do not want to end up with one that does not support ubuntu later. i think nexus 4 is a "save" choice?
[14:35]  * Tak shrug
[14:46] <popey> user82: don't make a buying decision based on anything you see here ☺
[14:46] <popey> user82: anything could happen in the next half hour
[14:46] <popey> s/half hour/few months/
[14:47] <user82> yep popey i know.
[14:55] <aquarius> AlanBell, agreed that it is abotu visual rhythm, not really resolution independence.
[14:55] <aquarius> anyway, what happens is this: the phone will override any width/height set on the root element.
[14:56] <aquarius> so, if you want your app to be sized right, then explicitly set width/height on the root element, and then calculate other sizes based on that, and it'll just owrk on the phone.
[14:56] <aquarius> ideally for most apps we won't need explicit sizing anyway; should use anchors for as much as possble, because they're brilliant and this is what they're for :)
[15:02] <AlanBell> aquarius: there is also rotation, and my understanding from zoltan's reply is that bit is not fully baked yet
[15:03] <aquarius> right, but rotation isn't actually a thing. It's just a different size screen. :)
[15:03] <AlanBell> nope, it is an event
[15:03] <AlanBell> it could be more than the screen size dynamically changing
[15:05] <aquarius> right, if you want your app to work differently when rotated, indeed
[15:05] <aquarius> I personally never, ever, ever, ever want that, but I understand that some people do :)
[15:07] <aquarius> and I can't really think of why you'd want rotation to do something to your app's layout that you wouldn't *also* do if your app finds itself in a wider-than-tall window anyway
[15:08] <aquarius> which is why I don't think rotation is a thing
[15:08] <AlanBell> it might not be a thing
[15:08] <aquarius> (note: that's different from "reading the accelerometer settings" for things like driving games where you tilt the phone to steer round corners)
[15:09] <aquarius> in my opinion, if your app creates itself a desktop window which is, say, 320x480, and I resize that window to 480x320, then it should do the very same identical thing as it would if it were on a phone and you rotated the phone to landscape rather than portrait
[15:09] <AlanBell> possibly, yes
[15:09] <aquarius> the point is not "it rotated", the point is "the screen size changed" :)
[15:36] <mhall119> good morning folks
[15:46] <popey> morning mhall119
[16:33] <netcurli> will Ubuntu for Phones use pulseaudio and will I be able to use that directly from a qml/c++ app?
[16:54] <atiti> aquarius, I think the screen ratio is more important then the screen size change
[16:55] <atiti> so going from 320x480 => 480x320 you change the aspect ratio and that you could assume is due to rotation
[16:55] <mhall119> netcurli: too early to tell, I think
[16:56] <aquarius> atiti, perhaps, yeah, but I think the important point from my perspective is: what does your app do if I run it on the desktop and change its window size? If it makes sense to change the layout if the window is landscape-ish, then cool, do that. So I agree that what you generally care about is the aspect ratio of the screen rather than its actual pixel size
[16:57] <atiti> hehe well for a desktop its a bit different
[16:57] <atiti> i dont think i would want my say gnome-terminal to rotate when i resize it to a "tall" aspect ratio :p
[17:27] <aquarius> heh :)
[17:28] <aquarius> mhall119, if I've written a QML app using the Ubuntu sdk, what should I do with it? that is: are people just saying "here is a bzr branch" for the moment? or are people making debs and ppas and stuff?
[17:35] <mhall119> aquarius: just branches or tarball atm, I think
[17:35] <aquarius> cool. First app done, then :)
[17:35] <mhall119> aquarius: and posting about it on the Ubuntu App Developers community on G+
[17:35] <mhall119> \o/
[17:36] <mhall119> aquarius: is it your U1DB-backed notes app?
[17:36] <aquarius> mhall119, nope; I won't release that until we've got proper u1db bindings rather than my hacky Python prototype
[17:37] <mhall119> aquarius: oh, QML data components backed by U1DB would be cool
[17:38] <aquarius> agreed :)
[17:38] <aquarius> but we need the base QML bindings in first
[17:38] <aquarius> and then my notes app should Just Work :)
[17:38] <mhall119> QML bindings or Qt bindings?
[17:38] <donttrustem> Anyone have any info on the power consumption
[17:38] <aquarius> I suspect we'll get both
[17:38] <mhall119> donttrustem: nope
[17:38] <aquarius> that is: I imagine the sdk team will make qt bindings and then make the qml ones on top
[17:39] <aquarius> but that's not up to me, that's up to bzoltan ;)
[17:39] <mhall119> aquarius: yeah, I think that's how it works
[17:39] <donttrustem> Hmm! So it could die after an hour :)
[17:39] <mhall119> donttrustem: or it could last for months without a recharge
[17:39] <donttrustem> Please
[17:40] <mhall119> sorry, I thought we were all exaggerating
[17:40] <mhall119> donttrustem: It's safe to say that when it's available from an OEM, it'll have battery life that is comparable to other phones on the market
[17:40] <bzoltan> aquarius:  Yes, in a way it is up to me :)
[17:41] <donttrustem> K
[17:41] <bzoltan> aquarius:  It will happen, sooner or later. It is on our backlogs and I just hope that we will have time to do it soon.
[17:41] <mhall119> aquarius: are there C++ bindings for U1DB?
[17:41] <aquarius> not yet. There are C bindings, though.
[17:42] <aquarius> I suspect bzoltan's team will make c++qt bindings, but I don't know :)
[17:42] <bzoltan> donttrustem:  I have been involved in the nokia N900-N950-N9 and I can tell you that reliable power consumption figures comes out at the very end of the development.
[17:43] <donttrustem> Ok
[17:47] <bzoltan> donttrustem:  and the reason is very simple. Either there are way too many R&D tools, processes, loggers, tracers on the development release that all measurement is pointless or the set of services and pre-started processes are  not frozen because of the negotiations with OEMs. But I can tell you that there is no such technology used in the Ubuntu Phone what would make the final product power consumption less efficient than any ot
[17:49] <aquarius> mhall119, should I post this little app on G+ in the app dev community as "discussion" or "app showcase"? I don't know if "app showcase" is just to show off random apps or whether it's designed for the actual app dev competitions
[17:51] <mhall119> aquarius: app showcase
[17:51] <mhall119> it's just for showing off
[17:52] <aquarius> posted.
[17:56] <mhall119> aquarius: dude, that's an awesome game
[17:57] <mhall119> need controls for slowing it down though...I wasn't able to keep up
[17:57] <mhall119> but maybe that's just me
[17:57] <aquarius> nah. It could *be* a bit more awesome, given time. My distinct lack of design skills do not help :)
[17:57] <aquarius> ha! change "interval: 1500" to "interval: 2000" or something in the qml ;) I had it at 2000 and set it down a bit.
[17:57]  * mhall119 goes to read the source
[17:59]  * aquarius pushes a change to set the interval back to 2000 again
[18:01] <mhall119> aquarius: that's seriously only 500 lines of code?
[18:01] <aquarius> I love qml. :)
[18:02] <aquarius> 21k of code; 300K of music; 900K of word list ;-)
[18:03] <GuidoPallemans> what g+ app dev community?
[18:03] <mhall119> GuidoPallemans: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/111350780270925540549
[18:03] <GuidoPallemans> thanks!
[18:03] <mhall119> np
[18:04] <aquarius> something I would like in the Ubuntu Components (a thing for bzoltan, this): a way for a QML app to get at /usr/share/dict/words or some similar thing :) Otherwise every pure QML app that cares about words needs to ship its own 1MB word dictionary.
[18:04] <aquarius> a Dictionary{ language: "en" } component would be very nice.
[18:05] <bzoltan> aquarius:  QML kind of dislikes file system IO stuff
[18:06] <aquarius> bzoltan, indeed, which is why I'd like a component around which will do it and be a standard part of the toolkit. I packed an entire dictionary into JavaScript so I had access to a word list ;)
[18:06] <bzoltan> at least not directly .. but yes, we can figure out some smart binding to access data like this
[18:06] <aquarius> WordList rather than Dictionary, perhaps
[18:06] <bzoltan> aquarius: good idea
[18:07] <aquarius> but that'd be cool -- it makes things like Scrabble games much easier
[18:07] <bzoltan> aquarius: Keep them coming :)
[18:33] <mclane-> hi
[18:36] <mhall119> aquarius: file a wishlist bug
[18:36] <mhall119> so we can keep track of these things
[18:41] <popey> i hope by sharing a room with aquarius some of his coding skill rubs off on me
[18:41] <popey> that is not a euphamism
[19:12] <AlanBell> bzoltan: does it run orca for accessibility or something else?
[19:19] <mhall119> AlanBell: does orca run?
[19:21] <AlanBell> well it might do in theory, there is a Qt accessibility bridge it should be inspectable
[19:22] <AlanBell> and if this is really running Ubuntu then it should have speech dispatcher and espeak
[19:22] <AlanBell> might need a QML user interface for orca, or it could just run without a UI
[19:22] <mhall119> AlanBell: I've still never been able to get orca running decently, even on desktops
[19:23] <AlanBell> whut
[19:23] <AlanBell> normally just turn it on and it starts talking
[19:24] <AlanBell> unity is a steaming pile of silence most of the time, but anything that is more gnomeish should work
[19:24] <AlanBell> gtkish I mean
[19:24] <AlanBell> the dash occasionally speaks categories, rarely speaks icons and never speaks the lens list. launcher and quicklists are OK.
[19:32] <AlanBell> most of the testing and bug reporting I have done has been around ubiquity, getting the thing installed
[21:06] <donttrustem> I have just been looking the ubuntu phone video and noticed that the phone being demonstrated has an edge connector on the side of it.  I have a nexus s  will this work
[21:07] <popey> donttrustem: which demo?
[21:07] <popey> the phone used in the Ubuntu for Phones demo is a Galaxy Nexus
[21:07] <donttrustem> http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone
[21:08] <donttrustem> I have a Samsung google nexus s
[21:08] <donttrustem> Will ubuntu run on this
[21:11] <mclane-> i dont think so
[21:11] <mclane-> the minimum system requirements is cortex-A9 as I know
[21:12] <mclane-> nexus S has an A8
[21:12] <donttrustem> Really ..... Let me check
[21:13] <mclane-> sorry, it says entry level
[21:13] <donttrustem> It is an A8
[21:14] <donttrustem> So it will not run ubuntu?
[21:17] <donttrustem> Strange they look exactly the same
[21:17] <donttrustem> Only difference is the CPU
[21:22] <k1l_> donttrustem: the newest nexus4 looks the same, too. that is the point of the newer nexus devices. but the actual dev phone is a galaxy nexus
[21:23] <donttrustem> I understand .... Going to see if I can get one off eBay
[21:24] <mesquka> haha
[21:24] <HackinBlack> So when are the phones suppose to come out
[21:25] <HackinBlack> Earth to anyone
[21:27] <mesquka> hi
[21:27] <k1l_> HackinBlack: no phnes announced yet. dont know if there will be devices to ship ubuntu-phone in 2013
[21:28] <mesquka> a developement image will come out but about late February, but it won't really start shipping until 2014
[21:33] <Scrivener> Ubuntu Phone got a hardcore i-Fan friend of mine giggling with excitement. :)
[21:33] <donttrustem> I am sure someone will get it to run on the google nexus s
[21:33] <Scrivener> Just at the concept of unifying computing.
[21:34] <Scrivener> People at the Ubuntu booths have said we should see handsets later this year...
[21:34] <Scrivener> I guess that at least means announcements of them.
[21:34] <Scrivener> They say they can't talk about what OEM conversations might be like atm.
[21:34] <disharmonic> I'm really curious about what display server it uses tbh
[23:06] <AlanBell> aquarius: one rotation related thing an app might do is say "I don't make sense in landscape, never rotate me"
[23:07] <AlanBell> or vice versa
[23:07] <aquarius> AlanBell, indeed. But that's a whole-app setting.
[23:07] <aquarius> indeed, I saw something somewhere suggesting that Ubuntu Phone would by default be portrait, not rotate. But I may have misinterpreted it, and I can't remember where I saw it :0
[23:08] <AlanBell> mailing list in reply to my question :)
[23:08] <ubuntubhoy> would that be just the launcher though ?
[23:08] <ubuntubhoy> games etc need landscape
[23:08] <ubuntubhoy> as well as camera apps
[23:08] <AlanBell> well aquarius's letter drop thing needs portrait
[23:08] <aquarius> not sure I agree on the camera app.
[23:09] <ubuntubhoy> why ?
[23:09] <aquarius> agreed on games -- some games make much more sense landscape.
[23:09] <AlanBell> videos must be shot vertical at all times \o/
[23:09] <AlanBell> vvs
[23:10] <aquarius> the camera just shows what it's pointed at. I mean, an actual physical camera can be turned through 90 degrees and take a picture, but its "UI" doesn't change when you do that.
[23:10] <AlanBell> so you might have an "I am always landscape" app and an "I am always portrait" app in the switcher at the same time
[23:10] <ubuntubhoy> I see no issue with that AlanBell
[23:10] <popey> exif should indicate the rotation
[23:10] <popey> so viewers can orientate it correctly later
[23:10] <ubuntubhoy> aquarius: but you use a phone camera in a dif manner than a physical camera
[23:10] <aquarius> popey, of course -- that's "an app reads the accelerometer", which is obviously something we want.
[23:11] <AlanBell> I see no issue with it either ubuntubhoy, except you have two apps with a different coordinate system
[23:11] <ubuntubhoy> and on switch it changes
[23:11] <aquarius> it is not at all clear to me what happens if the phone is rotated because you're running a landscape app and you want to summon the launcher. *Presumably* you'll still pull from the long edge of the screen, even if that long edge is actually at the "bottom" now because you've rotated the phone.
[23:11] <aquarius> the N9 was inconsistent and very, very annnoying on this particular point.
[23:12] <ubuntubhoy> if the icons rotate, but the edge stays the same, that would probably be ok
[23:12] <ubuntubhoy> not take too much getting used to
[23:12] <aquarius> dunno. I shall be interested to see what's supposed to happen in that case :)
[23:13] <AlanBell> this is stuff that needs to be designed in *early*
[23:13] <ubuntubhoy> that I agree with
[23:13] <aquarius> I'd be surprised if no-one's thought about it; I just don't know what the thoughts *are* :)
[23:13] <ubuntubhoy> set the standard and stick with it
[23:14] <AlanBell> whether or not rotation is transparent to apps (they just see a window resize) or they  get a rotation event and have to transform themselves but 0,0 in the coordinate space stays in the same place on the physical device
[23:15] <AlanBell> it is fine if "no, we don't do landscape, at all, ever, it is a design thing" is the answer
[23:15] <ubuntubhoy> then when designing a landscape app, you compensate for where on device 0,0 is
[23:16] <aquarius> yeah. That'll be a problem for fullscreen immersive games, though, so I don't think that'll be the thing.
[23:16] <AlanBell> dunno, it could be that games are not really what it is for
[23:16] <aquarius> ah, I see waht you mean; device coords are always portrait, so if you want to make a landscape game you rotate your internal coordinate system
[23:16] <AlanBell> indeed
[23:17] <ubuntubhoy> was surprised to see firefox get a hardware partner
[23:18] <AlanBell> oh?
[23:18] <ubuntubhoy> ZTE
[23:18] <aquarius> interesting idea from a bloke on g+, that the letters in my game should fall faster as time goes on, so it gets harder
[23:18] <aquarius> also, I'd add accomplishments if the accomplishments people made a QML thing :)
[23:19]  * aquarius mentions it
[23:47] <cielak> does anyone know if Python is expected to run on PhoneOS?
[23:49] <aquarius> it's a good question. It probably will, although I suspect the core apps will not be written in it. :)