[06:08] Hi === chriadam is now known as chriadam|away [07:54] when can we expect ROM's for this? [08:03] mesquka: you know the answer to that question already [08:10] ??? [08:11] not disclosed? [08:15] mesquka: see the topic [08:15] ok [08:16] Thanks [10:57] Hi [13:31] dpm, if I'm creating a phone app, how do I know how big to make the window? [13:32] dpm, that is: imagine I want to have, for example, 6 Rectangles in a Row which is the width of the screen. I can use units.gu, but I don't know how big a screen is in gu [13:33] so I'm a bit confused by how the units stuff helps [13:38] aquarius, it seems you're not the only one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/qml-toolkit/+bug/1096341. You can get the conversion from gu to pixels from http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/qml/mobile/resolution-independence.html - if that does not help, I'd suggest pinging bzoltan, as he's way more knowledgeable than me on this subject [13:38] Launchpad bug 1096341 in Ubuntu UI Toolkit "GU image size advice is wrong" [Undecided,New] [13:39] dpm, heh. I read the stuff about resolution independence, indeed. I'll talk to zoltan :) [13:40] ok, cool. I'll see if I can get someone from the SDK team to be on the public channel [13:42] wise [13:42] hey bzoltan1 :) [13:42] aquarius: hello there [13:42] so, units.gu. i don't get it :) [13:43] * popey listens also [13:43] * popey pokes AlanBell [14:10] hi aquarius [14:10] heya AlanBell [14:11] units.gu needs more of a justification for it's existence doesn't it [14:13] "The grid unit defines a visual rhythm in Ubuntu" I think that visual rhythm is what it is about [14:14] rather than any kind of resolution independence (which it doesn't achieve) [14:30] maybe this had been asked a thousand times: but are there any official announcements which phone the images will work on? or rumors esecially for nexus 4? [14:34] it has, and the only phone that's been used for demos has been the galaxy nexus [14:35] thanks Tak [14:35] i kinda need a new phone now..but do not want to end up with one that does not support ubuntu later. i think nexus 4 is a "save" choice? [14:35] * Tak shrug [14:46] user82: don't make a buying decision based on anything you see here ☺ [14:46] user82: anything could happen in the next half hour [14:46] s/half hour/few months/ [14:47] yep popey i know. [14:55] AlanBell, agreed that it is abotu visual rhythm, not really resolution independence. [14:55] anyway, what happens is this: the phone will override any width/height set on the root element. [14:56] so, if you want your app to be sized right, then explicitly set width/height on the root element, and then calculate other sizes based on that, and it'll just owrk on the phone. [14:56] ideally for most apps we won't need explicit sizing anyway; should use anchors for as much as possble, because they're brilliant and this is what they're for :) [15:02] aquarius: there is also rotation, and my understanding from zoltan's reply is that bit is not fully baked yet [15:03] right, but rotation isn't actually a thing. It's just a different size screen. :) [15:03] nope, it is an event [15:03] it could be more than the screen size dynamically changing [15:05] right, if you want your app to work differently when rotated, indeed [15:05] I personally never, ever, ever, ever want that, but I understand that some people do :) [15:07] and I can't really think of why you'd want rotation to do something to your app's layout that you wouldn't *also* do if your app finds itself in a wider-than-tall window anyway [15:08] which is why I don't think rotation is a thing [15:08] it might not be a thing [15:08] (note: that's different from "reading the accelerometer settings" for things like driving games where you tilt the phone to steer round corners) [15:09] in my opinion, if your app creates itself a desktop window which is, say, 320x480, and I resize that window to 480x320, then it should do the very same identical thing as it would if it were on a phone and you rotated the phone to landscape rather than portrait [15:09] possibly, yes [15:09] the point is not "it rotated", the point is "the screen size changed" :) [15:36] good morning folks [15:46] morning mhall119 [16:33] will Ubuntu for Phones use pulseaudio and will I be able to use that directly from a qml/c++ app? [16:54] aquarius, I think the screen ratio is more important then the screen size change [16:55] so going from 320x480 => 480x320 you change the aspect ratio and that you could assume is due to rotation [16:55] netcurli: too early to tell, I think [16:56] atiti, perhaps, yeah, but I think the important point from my perspective is: what does your app do if I run it on the desktop and change its window size? If it makes sense to change the layout if the window is landscape-ish, then cool, do that. So I agree that what you generally care about is the aspect ratio of the screen rather than its actual pixel size [16:57] hehe well for a desktop its a bit different [16:57] i dont think i would want my say gnome-terminal to rotate when i resize it to a "tall" aspect ratio :p [17:27] heh :) [17:28] mhall119, if I've written a QML app using the Ubuntu sdk, what should I do with it? that is: are people just saying "here is a bzr branch" for the moment? or are people making debs and ppas and stuff? [17:35] aquarius: just branches or tarball atm, I think [17:35] cool. First app done, then :) [17:35] aquarius: and posting about it on the Ubuntu App Developers community on G+ [17:35] \o/ [17:36] aquarius: is it your U1DB-backed notes app? [17:36] mhall119, nope; I won't release that until we've got proper u1db bindings rather than my hacky Python prototype [17:37] aquarius: oh, QML data components backed by U1DB would be cool [17:38] agreed :) [17:38] but we need the base QML bindings in first [17:38] and then my notes app should Just Work :) [17:38] QML bindings or Qt bindings? [17:38] Anyone have any info on the power consumption [17:38] I suspect we'll get both [17:38] donttrustem: nope [17:38] that is: I imagine the sdk team will make qt bindings and then make the qml ones on top [17:39] but that's not up to me, that's up to bzoltan ;) [17:39] aquarius: yeah, I think that's how it works [17:39] Hmm! So it could die after an hour :) [17:39] donttrustem: or it could last for months without a recharge [17:39] Please [17:40] sorry, I thought we were all exaggerating [17:40] donttrustem: It's safe to say that when it's available from an OEM, it'll have battery life that is comparable to other phones on the market [17:40] aquarius: Yes, in a way it is up to me :) [17:41] K [17:41] aquarius: It will happen, sooner or later. It is on our backlogs and I just hope that we will have time to do it soon. [17:41] aquarius: are there C++ bindings for U1DB? [17:41] not yet. There are C bindings, though. [17:42] I suspect bzoltan's team will make c++qt bindings, but I don't know :) [17:42] donttrustem: I have been involved in the nokia N900-N950-N9 and I can tell you that reliable power consumption figures comes out at the very end of the development. [17:43] Ok [17:47] donttrustem: and the reason is very simple. Either there are way too many R&D tools, processes, loggers, tracers on the development release that all measurement is pointless or the set of services and pre-started processes are not frozen because of the negotiations with OEMs. But I can tell you that there is no such technology used in the Ubuntu Phone what would make the final product power consumption less efficient than any ot [17:49] mhall119, should I post this little app on G+ in the app dev community as "discussion" or "app showcase"? I don't know if "app showcase" is just to show off random apps or whether it's designed for the actual app dev competitions [17:51] aquarius: app showcase [17:51] it's just for showing off [17:52] posted. [17:56] aquarius: dude, that's an awesome game [17:57] need controls for slowing it down though...I wasn't able to keep up [17:57] but maybe that's just me [17:57] nah. It could *be* a bit more awesome, given time. My distinct lack of design skills do not help :) [17:57] ha! change "interval: 1500" to "interval: 2000" or something in the qml ;) I had it at 2000 and set it down a bit. [17:57] * mhall119 goes to read the source [17:59] * aquarius pushes a change to set the interval back to 2000 again [18:01] aquarius: that's seriously only 500 lines of code? [18:01] I love qml. :) [18:02] 21k of code; 300K of music; 900K of word list ;-) [18:03] what g+ app dev community? [18:03] GuidoPallemans: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/111350780270925540549 [18:03] thanks! [18:03] np [18:04] something I would like in the Ubuntu Components (a thing for bzoltan, this): a way for a QML app to get at /usr/share/dict/words or some similar thing :) Otherwise every pure QML app that cares about words needs to ship its own 1MB word dictionary. [18:04] a Dictionary{ language: "en" } component would be very nice. [18:05] aquarius: QML kind of dislikes file system IO stuff [18:06] bzoltan, indeed, which is why I'd like a component around which will do it and be a standard part of the toolkit. I packed an entire dictionary into JavaScript so I had access to a word list ;) [18:06] at least not directly .. but yes, we can figure out some smart binding to access data like this [18:06] WordList rather than Dictionary, perhaps [18:06] aquarius: good idea [18:07] but that'd be cool -- it makes things like Scrabble games much easier [18:07] aquarius: Keep them coming :) [18:33] hi [18:36] aquarius: file a wishlist bug [18:36] so we can keep track of these things [18:41] i hope by sharing a room with aquarius some of his coding skill rubs off on me [18:41] that is not a euphamism [19:12] bzoltan: does it run orca for accessibility or something else? [19:19] AlanBell: does orca run? [19:21] well it might do in theory, there is a Qt accessibility bridge it should be inspectable [19:22] and if this is really running Ubuntu then it should have speech dispatcher and espeak [19:22] might need a QML user interface for orca, or it could just run without a UI [19:22] AlanBell: I've still never been able to get orca running decently, even on desktops [19:23] whut [19:23] normally just turn it on and it starts talking [19:24] unity is a steaming pile of silence most of the time, but anything that is more gnomeish should work [19:24] gtkish I mean [19:24] the dash occasionally speaks categories, rarely speaks icons and never speaks the lens list. launcher and quicklists are OK. [19:32] most of the testing and bug reporting I have done has been around ubiquity, getting the thing installed === rsalveti_ is now known as rsalveti [21:06] I have just been looking the ubuntu phone video and noticed that the phone being demonstrated has an edge connector on the side of it. I have a nexus s will this work [21:07] donttrustem: which demo? [21:07] the phone used in the Ubuntu for Phones demo is a Galaxy Nexus [21:07] http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone [21:08] I have a Samsung google nexus s [21:08] Will ubuntu run on this [21:11] i dont think so [21:11] the minimum system requirements is cortex-A9 as I know [21:12] nexus S has an A8 [21:12] Really ..... Let me check [21:13] sorry, it says entry level [21:13] It is an A8 [21:14] So it will not run ubuntu? [21:17] Strange they look exactly the same [21:17] Only difference is the CPU [21:22] donttrustem: the newest nexus4 looks the same, too. that is the point of the newer nexus devices. but the actual dev phone is a galaxy nexus [21:23] I understand .... Going to see if I can get one off eBay [21:24] haha [21:24] So when are the phones suppose to come out [21:25] Earth to anyone [21:27] hi [21:27] HackinBlack: no phnes announced yet. dont know if there will be devices to ship ubuntu-phone in 2013 [21:28] a developement image will come out but about late February, but it won't really start shipping until 2014 [21:33] Ubuntu Phone got a hardcore i-Fan friend of mine giggling with excitement. :) [21:33] I am sure someone will get it to run on the google nexus s [21:33] Just at the concept of unifying computing. [21:34] People at the Ubuntu booths have said we should see handsets later this year... [21:34] I guess that at least means announcements of them. [21:34] They say they can't talk about what OEM conversations might be like atm. [21:34] I'm really curious about what display server it uses tbh [23:06] aquarius: one rotation related thing an app might do is say "I don't make sense in landscape, never rotate me" [23:07] or vice versa [23:07] AlanBell, indeed. But that's a whole-app setting. [23:07] indeed, I saw something somewhere suggesting that Ubuntu Phone would by default be portrait, not rotate. But I may have misinterpreted it, and I can't remember where I saw it :0 [23:08] mailing list in reply to my question :) [23:08] would that be just the launcher though ? [23:08] games etc need landscape [23:08] as well as camera apps [23:08] well aquarius's letter drop thing needs portrait [23:08] not sure I agree on the camera app. [23:09] why ? [23:09] agreed on games -- some games make much more sense landscape. [23:09] videos must be shot vertical at all times \o/ [23:09] vvs [23:10] the camera just shows what it's pointed at. I mean, an actual physical camera can be turned through 90 degrees and take a picture, but its "UI" doesn't change when you do that. [23:10] so you might have an "I am always landscape" app and an "I am always portrait" app in the switcher at the same time [23:10] I see no issue with that AlanBell [23:10] exif should indicate the rotation [23:10] so viewers can orientate it correctly later [23:10] aquarius: but you use a phone camera in a dif manner than a physical camera [23:10] popey, of course -- that's "an app reads the accelerometer", which is obviously something we want. [23:11] I see no issue with it either ubuntubhoy, except you have two apps with a different coordinate system [23:11] and on switch it changes [23:11] it is not at all clear to me what happens if the phone is rotated because you're running a landscape app and you want to summon the launcher. *Presumably* you'll still pull from the long edge of the screen, even if that long edge is actually at the "bottom" now because you've rotated the phone. [23:11] the N9 was inconsistent and very, very annnoying on this particular point. [23:12] if the icons rotate, but the edge stays the same, that would probably be ok [23:12] not take too much getting used to [23:12] dunno. I shall be interested to see what's supposed to happen in that case :) [23:13] this is stuff that needs to be designed in *early* [23:13] that I agree with [23:13] I'd be surprised if no-one's thought about it; I just don't know what the thoughts *are* :) [23:13] set the standard and stick with it [23:14] whether or not rotation is transparent to apps (they just see a window resize) or they get a rotation event and have to transform themselves but 0,0 in the coordinate space stays in the same place on the physical device [23:15] it is fine if "no, we don't do landscape, at all, ever, it is a design thing" is the answer [23:15] then when designing a landscape app, you compensate for where on device 0,0 is [23:16] yeah. That'll be a problem for fullscreen immersive games, though, so I don't think that'll be the thing. [23:16] dunno, it could be that games are not really what it is for [23:16] ah, I see waht you mean; device coords are always portrait, so if you want to make a landscape game you rotate your internal coordinate system [23:16] indeed [23:17] was surprised to see firefox get a hardware partner [23:18] oh? [23:18] ZTE [23:18] interesting idea from a bloke on g+, that the letters in my game should fall faster as time goes on, so it gets harder [23:18] also, I'd add accomplishments if the accomplishments people made a QML thing :) [23:19] * aquarius mentions it [23:47] does anyone know if Python is expected to run on PhoneOS? [23:49] it's a good question. It probably will, although I suspect the core apps will not be written in it. :)