[01:52] <Seeker> I wish I lived on a higher floor, so I could throw this damn computer out and watch it smash
[01:52] <daftykins> what's not playing ball?
[01:52] <Seeker> my TV tuners
[01:53] <Seeker> both my DVB-T and DVB-S tuners have stopped tuning anything
[01:53] <daftykins> Seeker: meet ali1234
[01:53] <Seeker> ?
[01:55] <daftykins> he has TV tuning fun too
[01:55] <Seeker> when did his start?
[01:55] <daftykins> new years day iirc
[01:55] <Seeker> mine started some time between about 2am and 6pm today
[01:55] <Seeker> well, yesterday now
[01:55] <daftykins> hrmm
[01:56] <daftykins> what changed in that window?
[01:56] <Seeker> no idea
[01:56] <Seeker> I was out at work
[01:56] <Seeker> wife didn't use TV
[01:57] <Seeker> aerial is ok, TV can receive singal
[01:58] <daftykins> any auto update shiz enabled?
[01:59] <Seeker> nope
[02:00] <daftykins> well i'm out of ideas
[02:00] <daftykins> good news is, you no longer see the terrible programming of today?
[02:01] <Seeker> yeah, but now my mythtv box is broken
[02:02] <daftykins> =[
[02:12] <Seeker> it just doesnt seem to be able to tune anything
[02:12] <Seeker> and I have no idea why
[02:14] <daftykins> that's the same situation ali1234 has
[02:14] <daftykins> mythtv too, afaik
[02:14] <Seeker> I'm trying to use the dvb tools too
[02:14] <Seeker> scan, w_scan, dvbsnoop
[02:14] <Seeker> all do nothing
[02:14] <daftykins> how wude indeed
[02:15] <Seeker> nothing in dmesg
[08:13]  * MartijnVdS needs moar cpu power
[09:00] <dw4tkins> I had the same trouble last year, MartijnVdS - then a friend replaced his PC so I got a cheap but very useable machine 2nd hand
[09:00] <dw4tkins> ...alternatively, get a Raspberry Pi cluster.
[09:05] <MartijnVdS> dw4tkins: I just want to compile some custom OpenWRT firmware :)
[09:05] <MartijnVdS> dw4tkins: but it's taking forever :)
[09:05] <MartijnVdS> even with only 5-6 packages enabled
[09:06]  * dw4tkins throws a 1 GHz AMD CPU in MartijnVdS' general direction
[09:09] <dw4tkins> I have 42 Lego points, woohoo!
[09:11] <ali1234> Seeker: mythtv can't tune properly. you need to enter transponders manually and then do a tuned scan.
[09:30] <directhex> myth always scanned fine for me
[09:30] <directhex> as of 0.18 or so
[09:44] <ali1234> i get two copies of half the channels and the other half don't show up at all
[09:44] <ali1234> also i get different results each time
[09:44] <ali1234> the problem is every frontend is different
[09:45] <ali1234> they have different timeouts, different signals etc
[09:45] <ali1234> they are trying to standardise it right now actually
[09:53] <Seeker> ali1234, tried the command line scan utilities?
[09:53] <ali1234> yes
[09:54] <ali1234> they are hit and miss
[09:54] <ali1234> scan works, but only because you tell it all the frequencies in advance
[09:54] <ali1234> w_scan does not work, it does the same thing as mythtv
[09:54] <ali1234> i don't think there are any others
[09:55] <ali1234> there is dvbv5_scan but i haven't tried that
[09:56] <MartijnVdS> w_scan works fine for me
[09:56] <MartijnVdS> on DVB-T and DVB-S2
[09:56] <MartijnVdS> (with DiSEqC)
[09:56] <Seeker> ali1234, and it was working previously, then suddenly stopped being able to get a lock?
[09:57] <ali1234> no, this is just standard
[09:57] <Seeker> both of my cards were working perfectly previously
[09:57] <MartijnVdS> Seeker: satellite?
[09:58] <Seeker> Sometime between 2am and 6pm yesterday, both my Nova-T 500 and my TBS 6920 (DVB-T and DVB-S2 respectively) stopped getting locks
[09:58] <MartijnVdS> Seeker: have you tried turning it off and back on again? ;)
[09:58] <MartijnVdS> I use this: w_scan -fs -s S28E2 -E0 -O0 -o7 > Astra2.conf
[09:58] <Seeker> yes
[09:58] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:58] <MartijnVdS> what's your command line?
[09:58] <MartijnVdS> brobostigon: howdy!
[09:59] <Seeker> MartijnVdS, I'll let that run, see what happens
[09:59] <brobostigon> MartijnVdS: howdy
[10:00] <MartijnVdS> Seeker: (frontend satellite, sat 28E2 = "the one most UK dishes are pointed at because of FreeSat and Sky", E0 = only free-to-air, -O0 = Only TV/Radio, no data, -o7 = VDR 1.7 output)
[10:01] <Seeker> think I used w_scan -fs -s S28E2
[10:01] <MartijnVdS> the other options are optional :)
[10:05] <Seeker`> Error: Sorry - i could't get any working frequency/transponder. Nothing to scan!!
[10:05] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: sounds like someone stole your dish
[10:05] <MartijnVdS> or misaligned it
[10:05] <Seeker`> MartijnVdS, So why did my DVB-T stop tuning too, when a TV plugged in to another socket works
[10:06] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: yes that's very weird, and why I asked if you'd rebooted :)
[10:06] <dw4tkins> perhaps it's a hardware problem, with the socket or the cable?
[10:06] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: w_scan -ft -c UK -E0 -O0 -v for DVB-T ?
[10:07] <Seeker`> GB not UK :P
[10:07] <MartijnVdS> the TV might need less signal to work properly (more sensitive receiver)
[10:07] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: uh yeah :)
[10:07] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: mine says NL :)
[10:07] <Seeker`> dw4tkins: Two seperate cables
[10:08] <Seeker`> The TV is rubbish. Before the switchover, it couldn't get more than aobut 3 channels, mythtv could get all of them
[10:09] <MartijnVdS> I'm confused about your cables :)
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> can you draw a diagram somewhere?
[10:10] <Seeker`> MartijnVdS, two cables coming from a wall socket. One going to a DVB-S2 card, another going to a DVB-T card
[10:10] <MartijnVdS> did you switch them?
[10:10] <Seeker`> no, they have different connectors
[10:11] <MartijnVdS> was there rain/snow/lightning yesterday?
[10:11] <Seeker`> no
[10:12] <Seeker`> well, not that I recall
[10:28] <Seeker`> MartijnVdS, w_scan returns nothing for DVB-T either
[11:03] <ali1234> Seeker`: when my TV kept not working at night i found out it was because someone was turning off the power supply for the masthead amplifier at night.
[11:04] <Seeker`> it was dead by 6pm, didn't record simpsons
[13:13] <ali1234> i need a file archival system
[13:13] <ali1234> an automated one that understands directories, duplicates, timestamps, makefiles, various cvs formats, tar files...
[13:15] <ali1234> a start would be a tool like file, except it works on directories
[13:15] <Seeker`> I need a working tuner :')
[13:15] <Seeker`> *:'(
[13:16] <ali1234> > directory ~/Source/linux
[13:16] <ali1234> git working directory, Linux 3.6.0, http://www.kernel.org
[13:17] <ali1234> Seeker`: i suggest you consult my spreadsheet of all transmitters, find yours, then try to directly tune with dvbtune
[13:17] <Seeker`> where does the speadsheet live?
[13:18] <ali1234> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amam7h6Tso0TdHFrY19LbDNSYXpzX1hWMC1ZeWEwYkE
[13:18] <ali1234> note the multiple sheets, one for each region, at the bottom
[13:18] <ali1234> to convert the UHF channel numbers to MHz, multiply by 8 and add 306
[13:18] <ali1234> then add 0.166 if it's + or subtract if it is -
[13:19] <ali1234> then dvbtune -f <Hz>
[13:19] <MartijnVdS> For satellite, there's http://en.kingofsat.net/pos-28.2E.php
[13:20] <ali1234> if you're on a main transmitter then there's initial tuning files here: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/dvb-t/
[13:20] <ali1234> if you're on a relay you'll have to look at the sheet
[13:20] <ali1234> you should see: FE_STATUS: FE_HAS_SIGNAL FE_HAS_LOCK FE_HAS_CARRIER FE_HAS_VITERBI FE_HAS_SYNC
[13:21] <ali1234> FE_HAS_SYNC being the most important one
[13:21] <penguin42> ali1234: There's a package with all that in
[13:21] <ali1234> if dvbtune runs forever you have a problem
[13:21] <ali1234> penguin42: and that package hasn't been updated for post DSO frequencies, so it is completely useless
[13:21] <penguin42> ali1234: I started playing with dvbtune etc and eventually noticed kaffeine did it all itself
[13:21] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: dvb-apps
[13:21] <MartijnVdS> files are in /usr/share/dvb/dvb-t/uk-*
[13:22] <ali1234> penguin42: i will submit the new tuning files upstream if/when people tell me they work :)
[13:22] <ali1234> i can't really test them for obvious reasons :)
[13:22] <ali1234> i know the lines for T2 multiplexes are wrong
[13:22] <ali1234> don't know the correct format
[13:22] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: just drive around the country a few times and test them :)
[13:23] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: can't take more than a few weeks!
[13:23] <ali1234> i can't drive
[13:23] <MartijnVdS> Hire the stig.
[13:23] <penguin42> ali1234: Most of the files in my version say they're autogenerated from ofcom/dtg sites - except mine (winter hill which says it's manual)
[13:23] <ali1234> penguin42: yep all those "autogenerated from dtg" ones are generated from the pre-DSO data
[13:24] <ali1234> which is still up at the exact same URL
[13:24] <ali1234> and completely wrong
[13:24] <penguin42> ah, that sucks
[13:24] <ali1234> the new data is in a different format that can't be parsed easily (PDF)
[13:24] <ali1234> however, i managed with some manual tweaks to do it
[13:24] <ali1234> and now you see the results :)
[13:25] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: ask Ofcom to have a look at the Dutch system :)
[13:25] <ali1234> why?
[13:25] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: we have a web-accessible database we can query with a simple form :)
[13:25] <MartijnVdS> very Web 0.5
[13:25] <ali1234> that's pretty cool
[13:25] <ali1234> we have ukfree.tv or whatever it's called, but it's not machine readable
[13:26] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: we also have http://radio-tv-nederland.nl/ who went through the raw data and put the interesting bits into .xls files
[13:26] <ali1234> Seeker`: i guess check ukfree.tv to see if there's problems on your transmitter
[13:26] <Seeker`> ali1234, I just get 'FE_GET_INFO: Inappropriate ioctl for device'
[13:26] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: It's suspicious that both sat and terrestrial broke at the same time
[13:26] <ali1234> Seeker`: that's not a problem in and of itself
[13:27] <Seeker`> and no reported problems on my transmitters
[13:27] <ali1234> i get that on some tuners but they still work
[13:27] <ali1234> it is suspicious. did you update kernel?
[13:27] <Seeker`> the program exits after that error
[13:27] <MartijnVdS> maybe the /dev/dvb/adapter0 and adapter1 got switched around somehow?
[13:27] <ali1234> ah that could mean something else is using it then
[13:28] <ali1234> you need to kill mythbackend
[13:28] <MartijnVdS> so everything that's expecting DVB-T on 0, gets the S adapter and the other way around
[13:28] <ali1234> before doing anything else
[13:28] <ali1234> that's a possibility
[13:28] <Seeker`> backend is stopped
[13:28] <ali1234> dvbtune will tell you the name of the device (chipset)
[13:29] <ali1234> eg Using DVB card "Realtek RTL2832 (DVB-T)"
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> hmm. w_scan might have been having the same problem: device already in use
[13:29] <ali1234> yeah
[13:29] <ali1234> maybe backend crashed
[13:30] <MartijnVdS> but that should have been fixed by rebooting
[13:30] <ali1234> i suggest plugging tuner into another computer, assuming it is USB
[13:30] <Seeker`> nope, PCI / PCIe
[13:30] <Seeker`> hmm, w_scan / dvbtune etc. aren't finding any cards now
[13:30] <Seeker`> this is really weird
[13:30] <ali1234> check dmesg?
[13:30] <Seeker`> modules are loaded
[13:31] <Seeker`> no errors in dmesg
[13:31] <ali1234> maybe dvb core crashed
[13:31] <ali1234> or maybe usb stack crashed
[13:31] <ali1234> dvb tends to do that
[13:31] <ali1234> what modules do your cards use?
[13:31] <ali1234> wait, not usb stack if it's pci
[13:32] <Seeker`> well, the Nova-T 500 is two tuners on a USB bus I think
[13:32] <Seeker`> nova-t is dib7000m/ dib3000mc
[13:32] <Seeker`> the satellite card is cx23885
[13:33] <ali1234> dib3000 support is broken in rcent kernels
[13:33] <ali1234> mine stopped working ages ago
[13:34]  * MartijnVdS has dvb_usb_dtt200u and saa7146/budget_ci
[13:34] <Seeker`> [    9.517130] usbcore: registered new interface driver dvb_usb_dib0700
[13:35] <MartijnVdS> (some no-brand DVB-T USB stick an TT-S2-3200)
[13:37] <MartijnVdS> Seeker`: have you tried a shutdown + remove power completely + wait a while + power everything back on?
[13:37] <ali1234> that is a good suggestion
[13:37] <ali1234> USB devices often stay powered and "crashed" over reboots if you don't do that
[13:42]  * MartijnVdS pokes around with OpenWRT
[13:45] <Seeker`> MartijnVdS, shut it down for a couple of hours. Came back up and now no program recognises either card
[13:46] <Seeker`> my computer is being really weird
[13:46] <Seeker`> one of my drives gives a SMART error when I boot
[13:46] <MartijnVdS> Capacitor plague?
[13:46] <Seeker`> If i unplug that drive, then another drive doesn't mount either
[13:47] <Seeker`> just took the card out, they look fine
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> sounds like your PCI bus is out of whack
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> nah look on the mainboard
[13:47] <MartijnVdS> and check the voltages your PSU puts out
[13:49] <Seeker`> caps look fine
[13:49] <Seeker`> BIOS is reporting voltages within 1.5% of expected
[13:58] <penguin42> Seeker`: What exactly are your SATA errors
[13:58] <dwatkins> I'd remove everything and add components one at a time to find the fault, or if it's with the motherboard, Seeker`.
[13:59] <Seeker`> penguin42 BIOS says that SMART has started reporting errors with one drive
[14:01] <penguin42> Seeker`: I'd use smartctl -a to show the exact smart errors in the drives log, and also get any kernel errors related to the drive; you can sometimes see if it's media or cable from them
[14:12] <Seeker`> no kernel errors, its only "Raw_Read_Error_Rate"
[14:21] <penguin42> ok, show the smartctl -a   data
[14:25] <zleap> hello
[14:25] <Seeker`> penguin42: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1523770/
[14:27] <zleap> Seeker`, what are we looking for in that,
[14:27] <penguin42> Seeker`: That does look like a pre-failure warning on a drive; a bad psu could do it, but if it's not the PSU I'd say that drive is due to fail soon
[14:28] <Seeker`> penguin42, got a replacement waiting to be picked up at pc world
[14:28] <penguin42> yeuch
[14:29] <Seeker`> so, how do I fix my problem?
[14:29] <penguin42> throw the drive
[14:30] <penguin42> Seeker`: If your seeing problems across multiple drives I'd suspect the PSU
[14:36] <Seeker`> penguin42, the main problem I have is that both of my TV tuners have suddenly stopped working
[14:38] <penguin42> Seeker`: Erm weird, if those are all happening at the same time as your drive problems then I'd definitely check the PSU
[14:38] <Seeker`> penguin42, like I said, all reported values are within 1.5% of expected
[14:39] <penguin42> Seeker`: It might be one rail on the PSU is dead
[14:39] <Seeker`> how do you suggest I test it then?
[14:40] <Seeker`> eugh, not the PSU causing DVB-S problems
[14:40] <Seeker`> same card doesn't work in a different PC
[14:42] <penguin42> Seeker`: OK, so isolate your problems - if they're actually independent problems then you've just got a dying hard drive
[14:43] <Seeker`> I believe so
[16:03] <Seeker`> Think I might just go and buy a new DVB-T tuner, see if that works
[16:04] <Seeker`> the socket works, I get the same thing happening on 2 different PCs
[16:04] <Seeker`> only leaves the cards
[16:50] <ali1234> Seeker`: when you say "the socket" shouldn't you have two sockets?
[16:50] <Seeker`> one wall plate, two connector points (well, 3 actually)
[17:26] <ali1234> why am i experiencing 3 second lag on all connections?
[17:32] <penguin42> ali1234: It takes that long for the censors to forward it
[17:33] <ali1234> nope, pretty sure it's something to do with this:
[17:33] <ali1234> Jan 12 17:32:50 al-desktop kernel: [87041.952228] usb_urb_complete: 3675 callbacks suppressed
[17:33] <ali1234> every second
[17:33] <penguin42> oh not fun
[17:34] <ali1234> actually, that's a nope
[17:34] <ali1234> that's caused because i left tzap running
[17:34] <penguin42> tzap?
[17:34] <ali1234> it's not the cause of my lag though
[17:34] <ali1234> dvb-t tuning program
[17:35] <ali1234> well, modem reboot time
[19:32] <Seeker`> ali1234: Bought a nano-something 290e, which seems to be able to get a lock (its a USB tuner)
[19:32] <Seeker`> although that is through its own portable aerial
[19:32] <ali1234> wow
[19:32] <ali1234> i never got anything from a small aerial
[19:32] <ali1234> i have that tuner
[19:32] <ali1234> it's DVB-T2
[19:33] <Seeker`> yeah
[19:33] <ali1234> basically the only one
[19:33] <ali1234> it does HD
[19:33] <Seeker`> how did you connect it to the wall?
[19:33] <ali1234> with a cable?
[19:33] <ali1234> there's an adapter in the box
[19:33] <Seeker`> hmm
[19:33] <Seeker`> not in mine
[19:33] <ali1234> for the mini connector
[19:33] <ali1234> well... there should be
[19:33] <inn0min4t3> Did Google stop making Picasa for Ubuntu?
[19:34] <ali1234> the other type of tuner to look out for is rtl2832
[19:34] <Seeker`> ah, there it is
[19:34] <ali1234> it does FM via SDR and you can use it with gnuradio to receive other stuff
[19:35] <Seeker`> tbh, if i can get my nova-t 500 working again, I'd prefer to keep that plugged in to the wall for  now, as it has dual tuners
[19:35] <Seeker`> I may just nuke my backend and start again
[19:35] <ali1234> those dibcom tuners aren't very good
[19:36] <ali1234> they just stop working for no reason :(
[19:36] <ali1234> mine never worked properly
[19:38] <ali1234> here's a trick you can use. tune to a working transponder with dvbtune -m to show signal strength
[19:38] <ali1234> you can then unplug the antenna and plug in a different one, to compare signal strength
[19:38] <ali1234> you can't directly do that if there is no signal to start with
[19:39] <ali1234> because dvbtune will just exit if there is no lock
[19:39] <ali1234> but once it is running it will keep going even if the signal comes and goes
[20:14] <rmarcandier> Alguem ai tem a Cert LPC-01 ?
[20:21] <ali1234> http://askubuntu.com/questions/240431/is-there-a-way-i-can-rename-trash-to-crap
[20:21] <ali1234> awesome question
[20:21] <rmarcandier> sorry, wrong chat :)
[20:21] <ali1234> i know we had no end of problems with translating Trash to Rubbish, so can anyone answer that?
[20:23] <penguin42> ali1234: Hmm, could you do it by definining a new locale - en_GBvulgar ?
[20:23] <shauno> http://askubuntu.com/a/85286/11684  looks promising?  (not sure if this renames the folder though, or just the icon that represents it)
[20:24] <ali1234> sure. i have no idea of the details involved though
[20:24] <ali1234> i'm not the question asker btw
[20:24] <ali1234> i just thought it was an amusing question
[20:26] <ali1234> shauno: nice one. flagged the question as duplicate :)
[20:26] <ali1234> he wants to rename the icon which is what that icon does. he tried renaming the folder but this did not have the intended effect
[20:27] <ali1234> *answer
[20:28] <shauno> I've no idea how nautilus handles these.  on osx, they give the folder a daft name and then handle in in metadata  (eg, ~/Music.localized)
[20:29] <ali1234> yep, i suspect the folder is always Trash
[20:29] <ali1234> regardless of locale
[20:29] <ali1234> otherwise it would explode if you changed locale
[20:30] <shauno> that would seem like the sensible option for folders you wouldn't usually see browsing
[20:34] <ali1234> i really want to make en_vulgar now
[20:34] <ali1234> would be an ideal addition to user hostile linux
[20:46] <rmarcandier> Hello guys, I have a quick question. At the moment I am working with Ubuntu 12.04 LTS on my work machine. I would like to know if Backbox or BackTrack are stable to work with, or just to make tests?
[21:07] <marsilainen> hi all, how well can I expect an upgrade to work from 10.04 LTS (server) to 12.04 LTS (server) ?
[21:08] <marsilainen> should I expect lots of problems? or for it to work flawlessly? or something in-between?
[21:08] <marsilainen> the server is a standard LAMP + postfix server mainly
[21:09] <AlanBell> marsilainen: does it have stuff from the repos on it?
[21:09] <marsilainen> I'm not sure what you mean?
[21:09] <AlanBell> did you install stuff from source on it?
[21:09] <AlanBell> or apt-get for things like postgres
[21:09] <marsilainen> pretty much everything on there was installed using apt-get
[21:09] <AlanBell> flawlessly then :)
[21:09] <marsilainen> cool
[21:10] <marsilainen> sort of a scary thing to do, so thought I should ask first...
[21:10] <AlanBell> backup first etc
[21:10] <AlanBell> backup config files twice :)
[21:10] <marsilainen> yeah, of course
[21:11] <marsilainen> I shall try it tomorrow morning then
[21:11] <marsilainen> at least I have the rest of the day to sort it out if anything doesn't quite work ;)
[21:12] <penguin42> well I now have an ubuntu derivative on a little mk809 ARM board; bit hacky and I need to get some networking yet; but still - progress
[21:14] <ali1234> marsilainen: if the server is a VPS you will have problems
[21:14] <marsilainen> ali1234: oh, it is
[21:14] <marsilainen> ali1234: sorry, I should have mentioned that
[21:14] <ali1234> typically you cannot choose kernel on a VPS
[21:15] <marsilainen> ali1234: hmm, ok, I wasn't aware of that
[21:15] <ali1234> so you will be running 12.04 on whatever kernel your VPS provider uses
[21:15] <shauno> curious, which provider?
[21:15] <ali1234> which may or may not work
[21:15] <marsilainen> shauno: bytemark
[21:15] <marsilainen> ali1234: so how should I proceed?
[21:15] <AlanBell> depends on the virtualisation technology
[21:15] <ali1234> yes
[21:16] <penguin42> and how flexible the providers are
[21:16] <ali1234> you should ask bytemark how to proceed basically
[21:16] <ali1234> it might be best to provision a new VPS and then transfer files
[21:16] <penguin42> bytemark are pretty good; it's a kvm guest normally
[21:16] <marsilainen> AlanBell: it's kvm I believe
[21:16] <ali1234> then update DNS and cancel the old one once everything is done
[21:16] <marsilainen> so should I talk to bytemark first?
[21:16] <penguin42> marsilainen: Is it there big.io thing or one of their older ones?
[21:16] <AlanBell> bytemark did have a custom kernel at one point, they did a tweak to jiggle the cron jobs so everything didn't go off at once, but that was back when they were using xen
[21:16] <penguin42> marsilainen: Ask on their forums, or I think there is also a #bytemark on here
[21:17] <marsilainen> right ok, I'll look into it
[21:17] <shauno> yeah, that's why I was asking.  I know bitfolk have a nice strategy to give you provision a vps and cancel the old one a week later (and don't charge you any extra for the overlap, which is nice)
[21:17] <ali1234> handy
[21:17] <penguin42> they're generally pretty friendly  - not sure whether the bytemark setup allows you to next kvm
[21:17] <AlanBell> bytemark are good, was pleased with them when we were a customer
[21:18] <penguin42> next? I mean *nest* kvm
[21:18] <AlanBell> we use KVM for our servers and run standard kernels on them, the kernel is running in the VM it doesn't know it isn't on hardware
[21:19] <ali1234> i've only used openVZ VPS
[21:19] <ali1234> it really hurts
[21:19] <marsilainen> ok, I'll definitely check with them (asking in #bytemark now) before going ahead with anything - thanks for raising the issue
[21:19] <ali1234> moved everything to a hetzner dedi rather than deal with that badness
[21:19] <penguin42> ali1234: kvm is a bit nicer than VPS; it's a full virtualised machine with it's own kernel - much saner
[21:20] <penguin42> and the bytemark stuff lets you get to the console and reboot it all remotely - can't remember if they let you do arbitrary kernel choice or not)
[21:21] <penguin42> sigh, this would be SO much easier if I had a working USB hub
[21:25] <marsilainen> ok, so it sounds like I just need to make sure that after the upgrade I connect to the console and ensure that the right kernel is selected
[21:25] <marsilainen> so that's easy enough
[21:25] <marsilainen> really want to do this as the version of PHP in 10.04 is a bit old now and some newer stuff doesn't support it
[21:44] <Zeotrope> hello
[21:45] <Zeotrope> can
[21:45] <Zeotrope> can anyone help me please ?
[21:45] <AlanBell> !ask
[21:46] <Zeotrope> I have installed Zorin 6.1 on a laptop HP pavilion dv5000 and
[21:46] <Zeotrope> sorry i am new
[21:47] <AlanBell> what is zorin 6.1?
[21:47] <Zeotrope> am getting a wireless is disabled  by hardware swich
[21:47] <AlanBell> oh, right that isn't ubuntu. Maybe find the zorin os support channel.
[21:47] <DJones> AlanBell: Its a derivative
[21:48] <AlanBell> ask in #ZorinOS
[21:48] <Zeotrope> i have tried typing sudo rfkill unblock all
[21:48] <Zeotrope> it says command not known
[21:49] <Zeotrope> i will try that other channel thank you
[22:09] <zleap> can someone help me with vnc please
[22:19] <marsilainen> !ask
[22:20] <ali1234> zorin os? like the bond villain?
[22:22] <marsilainen> if I had one critisism of Ubuntu it would be the tendency for all the UI to be seeming to be trying to get as close to MacOSX as possible - is that some sort of stated goal within Canonical?
[22:23] <ali1234> no
[22:23] <ali1234> they will never admit to it
[22:23] <marsilainen> sure, externally - but what about internally?
[22:24] <ali1234> i dunno
[22:24] <AlanBell> they have said they are competing with mac os X rather than Windows
[22:24] <ali1234> i would find that quote where shuttleworth basically said power users don't matter to ubuntu because all power users are moving to OS X anyway
[22:24] <ali1234> but i can't be bothered any more
[22:24] <ali1234> also all the UI designers use OS X
[22:25] <marsilainen> I think that MacOSX has a much nicer UI than Windows so I'd rather they go towards that than something else, but find it a little strange that it's losing some individuality along the way
[22:25] <ali1234> i don't
[22:25] <marsilainen> fair enough
[22:25] <ali1234> i think OS X is much worse than windows 7
[22:25] <ali1234> obviously it is better than windows 8
[22:25] <ali1234> and the ribbon is just horrible
[22:26] <ali1234> but in terms of the task bar windows 7 gets it right
[22:26] <ali1234> but i've explained this too many times
[22:26] <marsilainen> hehe
[22:27] <ali1234> basically there are two philosophies of task bar. one says the task bar switches between windows, the other says it switches between applications
[22:27] <ali1234> windows 7 is the former. unity and OS X are the latter
[22:27] <ali1234> the problem is that a window is a clearly defined thing, but an "application" is not
[22:28] <ali1234> so that type of task bar (usually called a dock) is doomed to fail no matter how much you polish it
[22:29] <marsilainen> well I don't use unity - I use gnome shell - and I don't use the 'dock' much TBH - I tend to have lots of workspaces with only one or two apps on each
[22:29] <ali1234> also global menu is an abomination
[22:29] <marsilainen> so I tend to spend my time switching workspaces rather than switching windows
[22:29] <marsilainen> which I find to be a more productive way of working, for me
[22:29] <ali1234> hah
[22:30] <marsilainen> if I want to start a new app, I start a new workspace
[22:30] <ali1234> so basically you learned to avoid the crappy window management and found a workaround
[22:30] <marsilainen> maybe so
[22:30] <marsilainen> works for me
[22:30] <ali1234> putting each window on a new workspace is just a proxy for having a proper taskbar
[22:30] <ali1234> unfortunately you can't do that in unity, because you only get 4 workspaces and adding more is difficult
[22:31] <marsilainen> when you have an app with multiple windows - like the gimp for example - it feels much cleaner to me to have it on a separate workspace
[22:31] <ali1234> that's true
[22:31] <ali1234> but i advocate single window mode for gimp
[22:31] <marsilainen> yes, that's right - that's one of the major benefits of gnome shell over unity IMHO
[22:31] <ali1234> or i would if it wasn't implemented in the worst way possible
[22:32] <ali1234> i mean, you;d expect it to use MDI right? nope. in single window mode, you can only view one image at a time. it uses tabs.
[22:32] <marsilainen> I do have multiple apps on some workspaces - like this one is my communication one with IRC, email, skype etc
[22:32] <ali1234> they don't look like tabs but they work exactly like tabs
[22:32] <marsilainen> but only a few windows so easy to switch between the apps
[22:32] <marsilainen> I've never tried gimp in that mode
[22:33] <marsilainen> but yeah, doesn't sound great
[22:33] <ali1234> i do basically the same thing but for some use cases i just need to switch constantly between 4 fullscreen windows without having to look at the 400 other windows i have open
[22:33] <marsilainen> but with it on a separate workspace I don't have to worry about that :p
[22:33] <ali1234> the 4 windows being shell, app under development, text editor, browser
[22:34] <marsilainen> everyone has their own use cases and therefore their own way of working
[22:34] <marsilainen> I'm not advocating mine for everyone
[22:34] <marsilainen> but it works well for me
[22:34] <ali1234> i don't advocate. i just point out flaws in everyone else's stuff :)
[22:34] <marsilainen> haha
[22:35] <ali1234> at the end of the day all computers suck
[22:35] <marsilainen> one thing I would say for gnome shell over unity is that everyone at my place of work who has tried gnome shell for a week has decided to stick with it rather than going back to unity
[22:35] <ali1234> i think apple kind of gets it
[22:35] <marsilainen> which probably says something at least
[22:35] <ali1234> sure their stuff is locked down and limited
[22:36] <ali1234> i think we have to start over with computers for consumers
[22:36] <marsilainen> probably quite true
[22:36] <marsilainen> anyway, I'm off to watch the football :)
[22:37] <ali1234> does anyone have any requests for ubuntu phone apps?
[22:38] <zleap> denver vs baltimore
[22:40] <ali1234> if you had 5 minutes to play with an ubuntu phone what would you try?
[22:40] <ali1234> i would time how long it took to sudo apt-get update
[22:41] <AlanBell> ali1234: that would be what I would try last, just before handing it back
[22:41] <AlanBell> I would try rotating it
[22:42] <ali1234> haha yeah i would try that :)
[22:42] <AlanBell> and I would try running an application on it when connected to a monitor over HDMI then disconnecting the monitor
[22:43] <brobostigon> miracast ?
[22:43] <ali1234> i hope the people who made it had some hands on time with an N900
[22:43] <ali1234> because there a lot to be learned... mostly what NOT to do
[22:44] <ali1234> i think unity could be great on a phone
[22:44] <ali1234> it's not a million miles away from hildon
[22:44] <ali1234> and that worked very well on the N900
[22:45] <ali1234> it works because on a phone everything is full screen
[22:45] <ali1234> thus app == window, always
[22:46] <ali1234> you could run desktop software on the N900 but it was really horrible, mainly because of window management
[22:46] <AlanBell> almost always, the Galaxy S3 has split screen for two apps now
[22:46] <ali1234> well that's just a silly gimmick
[22:46] <AlanBell> to an extent
[22:47] <ali1234> even so, android apps are always one window
[22:47] <AlanBell> you can also have a video playing in a window over other apps
[22:47] <ali1234> i barely ever even switch windows in android... it's more like a stack
[22:47] <AlanBell> there are some things about this phone that really need to be designed in early and I am not sure they are going to be
[22:48] <ali1234> such as?
[22:48] <AlanBell> rotation and accessibility would be my two things that are conspicuously absent
[22:48] <ali1234> rotation is meh
[22:48] <AlanBell> rotation might resize the app window and transform it's coordinate space
[22:48] <ali1234> most stuff didn't rotate on N900
[22:49] <ali1234> and i have my nexus 7 rotation locked
[22:49] <AlanBell> or it might not, you could have landscape and portrait windows in the stack, apps could refuse to rotate or accept a rotate
[22:49] <ali1234> you don't really need that designed in from the start
[22:50] <ali1234> i mean QML handles it anyway, just connect it up to the sensor and you are done
[22:50] <AlanBell> how does QML handle it?
[22:50] <ali1234> it handles it in the sense that everything is resizable
[22:51] <ali1234> you can make your QML app be all fixed pixel sizes if you want but that is missing the point
[22:51] <ali1234> anchors.fill = parent
[22:52] <AlanBell> http://micronokiadev.wordpress.com/2012/02/12/controling-rotation-in-qml-looked-hard-but-was-easy/ like that maybe
[22:52] <ali1234> yes
[22:52] <ali1234> QML is a lot like banging out HTML DOM with javascript
[22:53] <ali1234> in the beginning it was quite bad for that... a lot of problems just like we had with HTML 10 years ago
[22:54] <ali1234> where everything would explode when you resize one element
[22:54] <ali1234> but we're on 2.0 now... it got better
[22:54] <AlanBell> cool
[22:54] <ali1234> QML is designed for phone apps basically
[22:55] <ali1234> selecting QML for app development was the best idea ever
[22:55] <AlanBell> yes, it does seem quite good
[22:55] <ali1234> oh and it's not called QML any more
[22:55] <ali1234> it's called Qt Quick 2.0
[22:55] <AlanBell> Qt Quick
[22:56] <ali1234> but whatever, it's always QML to me
[22:58] <ali1234> you might want to check out the nokia N900 sdk
[22:58] <ali1234> it has a phone simulator
[22:58] <ali1234> you can click "rotate" and it rotates
[22:59] <ali1234> not sure if you can use Qt 5 though
[23:01] <AlanBell> not sure I want to develop any apps really, I am probably more interested in the HTML5 stuff for it
[23:02] <ali1234> HTML5 is a dead end
[23:02] <AlanBell> heh
[23:03] <ali1234> it's just too hard to make anything good with HTML
[23:03] <ali1234> even if you use jquery it's still a nightmare
[23:04] <ali1234> just try to make a kinetic scrolling list in HTML5
[23:04] <ali1234> then notice it's 4 lines of code in QML
[23:06] <ali1234> did you look at my newest jono-qml?
[23:06] <ali1234> i added kinetic scrolling... just because
[23:19] <ali1234> also, http://necessitas.kde.org/
[23:23] <AlanBell> nice
[23:23] <AlanBell> I figured there would be a QML for android somewhere
[23:24] <ali1234> still beta. i'm installing it now
[23:26] <ali1234> also it's Qt 4.8
[23:42] <ali1234> well that was easy
[23:43] <ali1234> tomorrow i'll make something cool with this i guess