micahgjtaylor: I don't mind rebuilding imagemagick, what's being dropped?01:14
micahgjtaylor: nevermind, I can use tools to figure it out01:15
micahgjtaylor: only edubuntu and ubuntustudio seems to be affected (well, mythbuntu also, but they're not releasing ISOs)01:18
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dholbachgood morning07:49
dholbachdebfx, directhex, DktrKranz: could one of you imagine teaming up with bdrung for the Developers Roundtable at UDW (Thu 31st Jan, 19:00 UTC), which will mostly be a Q&A session where everybody can ask their questions about Ubuntu Development in general?08:13
iulianMorning dholbach.08:37
dholbachhey iulian08:37
dholbachiulian, ^ maybe you could be interested in joining bdrung? :)08:37
iulianNop, can't do that unfortunately. :(08:38
dholbachno worries, I hope we find somebody else08:39
iulianI'm sure there's someone out there with more free time than me. ;)08:39
dholbachthere's 18:30 UTC (30m session) on that day we still have to find a speaker for too - we were thinking of either a demo of fixing a small bug or a walk through a few places to check for stuff to work on08:40
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RhondaPeople mail me that the packages.ubuntu.com site uses the old favicon - but noone tells me where to get the new one.09:54
RhondaAnd strangely, chrome doesn't display it to me on the www.ubuntu.com neither.09:54
tumbleweedI see it in FF09:55
RhondaOr on www.debian.org  *puzzled*09:55
tumbleweedwww.ubuntu.com/sites/all/themes/ubuntu10/favicon.ico according to the source09:55
RhondaYep, found it in the source.09:55
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RhondaBut it's still a bit … well.  *sigh* :)09:56
MCR1notgary: Hi :) If you are still searching for bitesize Compiz bugs for papercutters, here is quite a bunch of those: https://bugs.launchpad.net/compiz/+bugs?field.tag=coverity10:35
MCR1notgary: They seem to be ideal for newbies, because the whole sourcecode is Coverity commented and pretty self-explainatory, but ofc there might be false positives among those as well...10:36
MCR1notgary: This was just FYI, if you want to concentrate on other projects first, then no problem either - but feel free to use those, if you are on papercutters-bug-shortage ;)10:39
MCR1dholbach: Hi :) How many contributions to Ubuntu does one have to make until a packaging wish gets fulfilled for free ;) ?10:47
MCR1dholbach: I am missing https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/emerald/+bug/968112 :)10:49
ubottuUbuntu bug 968112 in emerald (Ubuntu) "Emerald (the original Compiz Window Decorator) not available in Precise and Quantal, while it was working on all Ubuntu versions before [needs-packaging]" [Wishlist,Confirmed]10:49
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xnoxMCR1: made a comment on the bug. Please provide requested information (it's mostly treasure-hunt / google-foo) =)11:47
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MCR1xnox: This was not the solution I expected. Please read https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/emerald/+bug/968112/comments/712:55
ubottuUbuntu bug 968112 in emerald (Ubuntu) "Emerald (the original Compiz Window Decorator) not available in Precise and Quantal, while it was working on all Ubuntu versions before [needs-packaging]" [Wishlist,Incomplete]12:55
MCR1xnox: I am running Emerald on Raring with latest Compiz/Unity and did so on Precise and Quantal as well12:56
ogra_MCR1, the point is that there will be nobody fixing bugs, the code was put to death by its developers12:59
ogra_so even if it builds and runs on all supported arches (which i highly doubt for arm or powerpc), it would just rot in the archive13:00
MCR1ogra_: Has every program for Ubuntu now to run on the Ubuntu phone ?13:01
MCR1ogra_: Then you would have to remove a lot more packages from the repos...13:01
ogra_no, the phoine wont run most apps, it doesnt run an X server afaik13:01
ogra_what has the phone to do with it ?13:02
MCR1ogra_: The point is: there is currently no replacement equal to or even better than Emerald and it still works, so why throw it out ?13:04
ogra_because its developers consider it dead13:04
ogra_and it diodnt build on all arches ... since there was no developer for fixing it, it had to be removed from the archive13:04
MCR1well, I would fix potential problems...13:05
ogra_so first make sure to have the FTBFS fixed then13:06
MCR1the build log from the bug is from a wrong version of Emerald btw - seems to be the non C++ branch13:06
MCR1well, as I told you: I can build it without problems13:07
ogra_create a PPA, ask the launchpad team for powerpc and armhf support for it, make sure it builds in all arches13:07
ogra_alternatively just convince debian to ship it and it will automatically be synced from there13:08
ogra_but its very unlikely debian will allow it in if it is an abandoned project upstream13:08
tumbleweed(and of course you'd get push-back in Ubuntu for that too)13:09
* ogra_ wouldnt push back if someone can actually proof he can take over upstream fixing and packaging for all arches and bugs 13:10
tumbleweedin which case, it should totally be in Debian :)13:10
ogra_but thats indeed a quite advanced and likely also time consuming full time job :)13:10
MCR1okay, guess I'll try to chat with some of the Debian packagers then - thanks13:11
tumbleweedif there were historically problems buildign it on other archs13:11
ogra_i bet they will tell you the same, but good luck13:11
tumbleweedI'd start by seeinf if those are still issues13:11
tumbleweedit's easy enough to build for ARM with qemu13:11
ogra_right, thats why i suggested a PPA13:11
MCR1tumbleweed: The initial problem was just a linker error13:12
ogra_now that you can have armhf ...13:12
MCR1then it got removed13:12
ogra_it didnt build and nobody wanted to fix it13:13
MCR1it was working and available until 11.10 and first noone knew how to fix it13:13
ogra_(note that between opening of the bug and removing the package there were 6 weeks)13:13
ogra_nobody bothered to fix it and there was no upstream anymore ... we dont allow packages in the archive that dont build13:14
tumbleweedwe have hundreds of packages that fail to build, each release. The few people that care don't have time to fix them all13:14
MCR1then someone found out how to fix it and I added this information, but later nothing happened13:14
ogra_and what cant be fixed and has no chance to be fixed through upstreams will be removed13:15
tumbleweedbecause if we bring it back - there's still no upstream, so it's just a matter of time before it breaks again, and we have to deal with it13:15
ogra_MCR1, ?? i dont see any other comment in the bug13:15
MCR1all I am asking you is helping me get this package back in as I am no packager and have no packaging skills13:15
ogra_doko obviously opened it on 2011-08-22 ... there were no comments on it until the package was removed 6 weeks later13:16
ogra_MCR1, well, that can only happen if someone fixes it13:16
MCR1ogra_: You are right -> it took some time until we found out the fix for the failing compilation13:16
ogra_MCR1, the last comment on the bug is from 2011-09-2913:17
ogra_and there were no further ones until you commented a few mins ago13:17
MCR1ogra_: I've now added detailed instructions - I did not know about this bug13:17
ogra_detailed instructions ?13:18
ogra_git checkout and make dont really help13:18
MCR1ogra_: I made my own one here bug 96811213:18
ubottubug 968112 in emerald (Ubuntu) "Emerald (the original Compiz Window Decorator) not available in Precise and Quantal, while it was working on all Ubuntu versions before [needs-packaging]" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/96811213:18
ogra_someone needs to make a new upstream release of emerald, someone else needs to package it13:18
ogra_and it needs to build on all arches13:19
ogra_thats not a trivial task13:19
MCR1I have only x8613:19
ogra_use a PPA then13:19
* ogra_ thinks we talk in circles since a while 13:19
MCR1ok, thx 4 the help13:20
ogra_make it build and provide a debdiff, find an upstream dev or find a packager who is willing to take the heavylifting13:20
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MCR1ogra_: Does it help to have a PPA for i386 and amd64 maintained builds for Precise and Quantal ?13:36
MCR1lp user ~brainpower is maintaining such a PPA, here the Quantal builds: https://launchpad.net/~brainpower/+archive/testing/+sourcepub/2745472/+listing-archive-extra13:37
ogra_well, make him build for armhf and ppc too13:39
MCR1I do not think that this will be easily possible, is this support essential ?13:40
ogra_well, you need to make sure it builds on all arches13:41
tumbleweedogra_: AFAIK nan-canonical people can't get ppc access13:41
tumbleweedwe don't have emulated ppc13:41
ogra_oh, ibthought ppc builds in containers too now13:42
tumbleweedmaybe I haven't been following *that* closely13:42
MCR1ogra_: In Compiz we have plugins that are only built for amd64/i386 and won't work and thus are not compiled and packaged for arm/GLES13:42
tumbleweedbut I certainly don't see ppc ppa builders13:42
ogra_well, i'm probably ahead of time here... UDS smoking corner marketingvtalks ;)13:43
MCR1ogra_: That is why I asked if all packages nowadays need to run on arm also ?13:43
ogra_MCR1, yes13:43
MCR1I bet there are a ton of exceptions for this rule13:44
ogra_not really...13:44
MCR1no more glscreensaver for example ?13:45
ogra_on hw that has no gl thats moot13:45
MCR1remove all OpenGL applications ?13:45
ogra_why ?13:45
MCR1You really must be joking now13:45
ogra_sw rendering works on arm13:45
MCR1OpenGL != GLES13:46
ogra_just not fast13:46
ogra_and ?13:46
xnoxMCR1: the replacements are the gtk & kde window decorator bridges + themes.13:46
ogra_mesa = mesa ;)13:46
xnoxMCR1: with respect to "solution", it simply means that it's underlinked and those two libs need to be either added at configure.ac / Makefile.am level, or potentially they are in the wrong order and need to come later.13:47
ogra_which is an upstream task13:47
xnoxMCR1: with a proper patch & autoreconf, it might go into universe or something like that.13:47
xnoxogra_: we patch a lot of packages like that =)))))13:48
MCR1xnox: that would be great news :)13:48
ogra_as i said. provide a debdiff and make sure it builds13:48
ogra_(on all arches indeed)13:49
MCR1ogra_: This is no attack, I am just wondering: http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/xscreensaver-gl13:52
MCR1Where are the arm builds ?13:52
LaneyI don't think we have any hard and fast requirement about that13:53
MCR1it would be quite ugly for the repos...13:53
Laneyensuring ongoing maintenance is more interesting IME13:53
ogra_MCR1, on launchpad13:53
ogra_you use the wrong tool, packages.u.c is a third party service only listing x86 arches13:54
MCR1ah, ok13:54
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tumbleweederm, that's not entirely accurate. it's on ubuntu.com and hosted on canonical servers, we can't call it a third party service13:56
tumbleweedbut yes, it builds on armhf https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/armhf/xscreensaver-gl13:56
ogra_oh, ssince when ?13:57
ogra_it used to be run by abdebian guy in the past, when wasbit moved ?13:57
MCR1ogra_: I could find them on launchpad, thx 4 the info.13:57
tumbleweedas long as I've know it... And yes, it is run by Rhonda, who is more a debian person13:57
* Rhonda hides13:58
MCR1ogra_: I will try my best to meet Emerald requirements (might take a while though...)13:58
ogra_hmm, i'm probably to long in this business13:58
RhondaMCR1, arm is not part of the official pool, is it.13:59
ogra_iit is13:59
RhondaI don't see arm in http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/raring/13:59
tumbleweedand no, there is no requirement that every package build on every arch. But it's preferred.13:59
ogra_since 5 releases13:59
Rhondaogra_, isn't13:59
tumbleweedRhonda: it's on ports.ubuntu.com13:59
Rhondatumbleweed: That's a seperate pool, thanks for proving my point.13:59
tumbleweedinternally to LP, they are the same pool13:59
Laneycan you get at an internal mirror from the packages.u.c box?14:00
tumbleweedit gets split out before it hits the primary public mirror14:00
Laneywhere they are in the same pool14:00
ogra_Rhonda, it is officialnsince lucid14:00
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Rhondaogra_, http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/lucid/ doesn't have it neither.14:00
ogra_but will never move to archive.u.c14:00
RhondaThanks again for proving my point.14:00
Laneyit's to do with usage not officialdom14:00
ogra_it is a 100% officially supported arch nontheless14:00
RhondaWhy isn't it in the same pool then but in ports?14:01
ogra_wejust dont move it to save mirrors from complaining,mits avtech reason we wont mobe itto archive.u.c14:01
Laneyparse error14:02
ogra_sorry, typing on a nexus7 here14:02
RhondaMe too :)14:02
ogra_we just dont move it to save mirror admins from complaining, its a tech reason we wont move it to archive.u.c14:02
RhondaThen it's the same tech reason it's not included in pkg.u.c14:03
ogra_but itis a fully supported arch nontheless14:03
ogra_with 5 years support etc yadda yadda14:03
ogra_(LTS supported only since precise though)14:04
RhondaIf someone would like to sponsor my efforts along that lines I would be willing to invest more time into the packages code.  Unfortunately my time is limited and I have to take care for my kid and pay back loan.14:04
ogra_we all do .., sadly :/14:04
tumbleweedknowing nothing about canonical infrastructure, is there a full mirror available to it?14:06
tumbleweedfull as in including ports14:06
tumbleweedbecause that would make it easy14:06
ogra_persia knows a few unofficial asian ports mirrors iirc14:07
tumbleweedyeah, it's not hard to reassemble one14:07
ogra_but beyind that there arent any officilly14:07
Rhondatumbleweed: Well, taking everything from ports isn't something I fancy.  Are really all archs on ports officially supported ones?14:09
ogra_ppc and armhf are14:09
tumbleweedand armel went away14:09
RhondaHm, and those are the only two I see for raring.14:09
ogra_armel not14:09
RhondaWas armel official in lucid?  ia64?  sparc?14:10
RhondaThing is, deciding which are officially supported and which are not from having all in the same pool is fishing for problems.14:10
ogra_armel, no ppc and no sparc/ia64 iirc14:10
RhondaWould require load of additional complexity in the code.14:10
RhondaIf the official ones could be moved to archive and the inofficial be kept on ports, there would be code to work with that.14:11
tumbleweedpresumably at some point, we'll have to move armhf to archive.u.c14:11
tumbleweed(or arm64 by then...)14:11
ogra_iirc there are some tools in ubuntu-dev-tools tobfind whatsnsupported14:11
RhondaAnd additional complexity only for the reason "to save mirror admins from complaining"14:11
RhondaI dislike such decisions.  They make things just unneeded complicated. :/14:12
tumbleweedogra_: not that I know of14:12
tumbleweed(but that was supposed to happen as the next stage of reorg...)14:12
* ogra_ didnt make that decision, i would love to see my arm work on a.u.c14:12
tumbleweedI assume at some point the traffic on ports will become unmanageable14:13
tumbleweed(unless all vendors do their own thing)14:13
ogra_but it has been discussed each release for the past 4 years14:13
ogra_and hasnt moved til today14:13
tumbleweedanyway, there is no requirement that every package build on every arch. But it's preferred. In Debain, I port my packages to all the archs I can14:14
ogra_so i wouldnt expectthat to happen in the near future either14:14
RhondaThe much I hate making you feel bad for your work because it doesn't receive the publicity it deserves, the much I go with the pragmatic approach here: Not working around that issue might increase the preassure on them to get it in.14:14
ogra_tumbleweed, i wouldnt let a package in if it wouldnt buildon all arches14:15
ogra_Rhonda, heh,i didnt mean to push you there :)14:15
tumbleweedogra_: in this case, I'd agree with you14:16
ogra_i was just stating the fact that o.u.c only has x8614:16
RhondaYep.  And I've heard that before.  My plan is to activate the "debports" part for ports.u.c to include them that way.14:21
RhondaIt would show the archs on the packages lists, but explicitly state them as "(unofficial port)"14:21
RhondaThat's the best I can offer on more-or-less short term.14:22
tumbleweedbeing accurate about the officialness and canonical-supportability isn't that important on packages.u.c14:22
tumbleweed(to me)14:22
xnoxRhonda: armhf is official, despite living on ports.14:29
xnoxRhonda: the ports vs archive split is pure disk space management for mirrors.14:29
xnoxRhonda: just list them all, without any labels =)14:30
tumbleweedI assume that requires more work14:30
Rhondaxnox: Do you say so with your canonical hat on?  :)14:33
xnoxRhonda: yes =)14:34
xnoxRhonda: also documented here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/FAQ#Architectures14:35
xnoxRhonda: "While ARMEL and ARMHF are listed in ports.ubuntu.com for this release, they should be considered supported architectures"14:35
Rhonda"maintenance is best-effort"14:36
tumbleweedsee footnote 414:36
xnoxRhonda: but i think footnote 4 overrides that =)14:36
ogra_it does14:36
Rhondaxnox: Yes, but that's a specific statement for those two archs, not a general one.14:37
RhondaAnd that's where it gets tricky.14:37
xnoxRhonda: yeah, hence why I explicetly said "Rhonda: armhf is official, despite living on ports."14:37
xnoxsince armel is dropped in raring now anyway.14:37
RhondaYou also said "just list them all, without any labels =)"14:38
ogra_erm, the release manifest linked is outdated14:38
xnoxRhonda: list them all without goind down the path of labeling something offices vs unofficial. It gets tricky very quickly and not as clear cut as ports vs archive.14:38
xnoxsince some ports at some point in time have or hasn't been "official"14:38
ogra_yeah, powerpc was on and off14:39
xnoxRhonda: anyway p.u.c is very useful =) and the more it lists the better.14:40
RhondaWell …   http://www.amazon.de/registry/wishlist/3UJMXUVWGN7Y9/   *whistlesinnocently*   ;)14:45
RhondaNo, I'll look into (ab)using the debports port for getting the ports stuff in.  And I need to look why the package descriptions are NOT appearing anymore on the site.  %-/14:47
xnoxRhonda: this seems appropriate "Getting Things Done. The Art of Stress-Free Productivity"14:48
* Rhonda nods14:52
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