solarcloud_3srcnTerrorists WIN !!01:17
daftykinspow pow01:27
daftykinsamusing GIF, safe for all times01:27
solarcloud_3srcnnice.. daftykins01:42
solarcloud_3srcnI've bookmarked it..01:42
solarcloud_3srcn' pow pow '.. can't wait to see all of those cat picts today.. Oh wait It's Caturday. Oh dear,01:44
solarcloud_3srcnhttp://wp.me/phA9d-Sn has been updated tonight .. at last.. a new book to read !01:46
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
=== feisar is now known as Guest64015
brobostigongood morning everyone,09:52
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
alexcockellMorning all..12:23
brobostigonafternoon alexcockell12:24
alexcockellOh - got a bit of a giggle here...12:24
alexcockellWho here runs LG smart TVs?12:25
alexcockellAware there's been a Big Annual Update been roled out?12:25
alexcockellHistorically they rolled out updates model by model... only they've now goen to the Universal Update model..12:29
alexcockell... and Smart Tvs have massive jumped in sales volumes...12:29
popeyi dont own a smart tv12:29
alexcockellThey have 1 or 2 servers hosting the whole of the UK12:29
alexcockell... and I'd guess about 10 million Smart TVs installed int he UK...12:30
alexcockellThey announce an update..12:30
alexcockellTV prompts you when you start it up...12:30
alexcockell400Mb shoudl, on most ADSL connections take about 20 mins tops?12:31
alexcockellMany complaints about it taking >6hrs12:32
popeyto download or update?12:32
alexcockellDownload - as the telly ideally downloads it itsself..12:32
popeywouldn't get this with Ubuntu T ;)12:32
alexcockell2 boxes hosting 10m?12:32
alexcockellYeah - cos we have a CDN...12:32
popey10 million!?12:33
popeyfrom one company12:33
popeythats 50% of all households12:33
alexcockellBasing it on them having a 5th of the UK telly market..12:33
alexcockellMultiple tellies?12:33
popeymultiple _smart_ tellies12:33
popeyi still call unlikely12:34
alexcockellYeah - point taken - but STBs as well - or WDTV-type units..12:34
popeyfrom one mfr?12:34
popeystill, fun ☺12:34
alexcockellGetting on that way though - smart tellies HAVE sold quite heavily over the last couple of years12:34
alexcockellConsider Sony, Samsung, PG, Panny...12:34
popeyyeah, but there's a zillion manufacturers12:35
popeyall those cheapo chinese ones you get in tesco too12:35
alexcockellWell - 5m maybe..12:35
alexcockellBut as back-of-an-envelope calcs...12:35
alexcockellStill a case that they have piss-poor infrastructure..12:36
alexcockellI wexpected my router to go mad when attempting the update... net activity lights to flash at a Netflix/iPlayer rate as the update hammered down..12:37
alexcockellBut - no.12:37
alexcockellthey were VERY interested to hear the suggestion of getting someone like Akamai to shoulder the load...12:37
penguin42alexcockell: Doing all at one is very very dangerous; they're going to have one hell of a bad monday morning when everyone complains about a broken updating12:37
alexcockellThey already have...12:37
alexcockellYeah - first time they went to Universal Update model..12:38
alexcockellUsed to be model by model..12:38
alexcockellPenguin42 - Oh - don't I know!  Been in the 2nd line supprt, and now capacity planning game for long enough!12:39
alexcockellSo instead of maybe 50thou of this model, 20thou of that...12:39
alexcockellAnd what happens when they release to the States?12:40
alexcockellEven the workaround model of download-to-PC, load onto USB key and hope... more risk of bricking the telly..12:41
alexcockellThey released last night - first people jumped on it and got the update - everyone else stuck at "0% updating..." status page....12:42
alexcockellI bounced the telly a couple of times then thought "fuck this" and cancelled..12:43
alexcockellAnd on hearing they had 1 or 2 releas servers - instead of 1 or 2 THOUSAND12:43
brobostigonis there a terminal version of something like gkrellm, that can read the temperaure from the rpi?12:46
penguin42brobostigon: I don't know Pi, but most stuff tends to come out of /sys/class/hwmon - e.g. /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon0/temp1_input13:17
penguin42brobostigon: also try sensors-detect13:18
brobostigon/opt/vc/bin/vcgencmd measure_temp   that seems to be the command to pull the temperature.13:19
brobostigonpenguin42: let me look at that, minute.13:19
brobostigonnope, there is no /sys/class/hwmon13:21
brobostigonwould it be possible, to create a byobu addon, to lets say every 5 secs, runs that command, and then display it in byobu?13:24
penguin42brobostigon: Probably; but probably the right way is to figure out how to teach sensors-detect about it, and then I'd bet there's something already like that for lmsensors13:40
brobostigonpenguin42: ok, umm, thank you.13:42
solarcloud_3srcnmorning, Afternoon, whatever (!)15:38
popeypip pip15:38
penguin42solarcloud_3srcn: g'day15:38
solarcloud_3srcnnice minifigs popey !15:39
solarcloud_3srcnpenguin42: Said g'day when I worked at a flight reserve. agency .. everyone just looked at me funny :)15:40
penguin42solarcloud_3srcn: Well it does solve the timezone problem15:40
solarcloud_3srcnyeah, true.15:40
dwatkinsThe history of the Minifig: http://eho.st/pjymxy7h15:42
solarcloud_3srcnC'est La Vie    .15:42
* solarcloud_3srcn downloads pic hard & forwards to chris pirillo quickly.. thanx.15:43
solarcloud_3srcnToday I am merely a Log floating on the chat channels of life :) https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/Attachments%20Email%20Xchat/01%20Glendalough%20130612%20Pano.jpg15:46
daftykinsnice pic that15:51
solarcloud_3srcnTwenty karma points If Anyone Can Tell Me This Fella's Name ?? http://goo.gl/msSDy16:05
solarcloud_3srcnAaaww  Poor Freedo .. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Freedo.svg16:06
daftykinsLinux libre 0o16:07
solarcloud_3srcnmm.. nother mailing list I see :D16:08
daftykinshe appears to be a good choice for a dental mascot16:08
solarcloud_3srcnyes, he had a brother, but he was like Bert of Bert & Ernie (seen as evils)...16:09
solarcloud_3srcnToday wil mark the point that I have not successfully watch TV for over 7 months !! https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/Attachments%20Email%20Xchat/Trinitron%20now%20under%20the%20sink.JPG16:11
solarcloud_3srcn*..will mark...16:11
directhexthat sink is vile16:15
directhexclean it16:15
solarcloud_3srcnIt's already clean, dude ( cleaned it months ago !!)16:15
solarcloud_3srcnYoke : Anti-Joke Cat             ‏@AntiJokeCat                                                       Why was six afraid of seven? It wasn't. Numbers are not sentient and thus are incapable of feeling fear.16:18
daftykinsi +1 directhex16:21
daftykinsalso, high voltage CRT beside water source, that's a recipe for... fun?16:21
brobostigonor, sizzzle.16:22
solarcloud_3srcnit died ages ago.16:22
gordwhen is sizzling not fun? sun bathing, bacon, saussages, fun for everyone16:22
solarcloud_3srcnI mean it is at the tip now ...16:22
brobostigonnot the sizzle when you put electronics in water.16:23
solarcloud_3srcnI noticed Ubuntu Tv meeting wasn't on last night :(16:23
daftykinsi can't see Ubuntu doing anything good for TV16:24
brobostigondirecthex: whats the ice on the paths in town like?16:24
solarcloud_3srcnWell, if there's no meeting = there's no collusion or crowdsourcing, so it's no happening either way.16:24
solarcloud_3srcn**it's not happ...16:25
solarcloud_3srcnLooking forward to The Last Train to Zona Verde this Spring http://t.co/5BIbOREY16:29
gordhttp://www.pcworld.com/article/261487/pc_in_a_keyboard_comes_with_ubuntu_linux_preloaded.html interesting16:33
penguin42gord: Makes sense16:34
penguin42gord: And not that hard I guess, a full size keyboard is quite big, compare it to a netbook16:34
solarcloud_3srcnno HDMI ??16:35
popeysolarcloud_3srcn: i think it did happen16:36
* solarcloud_3srcn sees a winblows superkey .. mmmmphf !!16:37
daftykins'super' is OS agnostic16:38
daftykinsalthough if you mean it's adorned by the Windows logo, meh16:38
popey☹  windows key16:39
solarcloud_3srcnmust be a sticker for that, somewhere ?16:39
popeynote the old Asus EEE PC which shipped with Linux didn't have a "Windows Key" but a key with a "Home" icon on it16:40
popeyvery good reason for that16:40
daftykinsno paying Microsoft16:42
daftykinsfor the 'privilege'16:42
popeyother way round16:42
popeyMicrosoft place great limitations on what the Windows key can do16:42
popeyif you ship a machine running non-windows but with a windows key, microsoft will send the lawyers in16:43
popeyspecifically if the windows key does something in software16:43
solarcloud_3srcnWhat would canonical do ?16:43
popeywe don't sell hardware, not our problem16:44
solarcloud_3srcnI must say, I thnk the 1.8GHz is underpowered, today , As there is the 2.13 GHz Atom processor that does the exact same job.16:46
gordits a year old article, so yes its using old tech16:46
gordor half a year even16:46
solarcloud_3srcngord: good try thou ;D16:46
gorda newer atom would put the price up too, i don't think there is much in .3ghz16:47
solarcloud_3srcn& in other news .. TWIL (Jordan !!) http://twil.tv/2013/01/htc-windows-phone-8x-review-from-an-android-users-point-of-view/ (24thJan'13)16:49
solarcloud_3srcnTime for porridge .. & sultanas ..17:07
directhexbrobostigon, not so bad now, crunches underfoot17:19
brobostigondirecthex: any chance of me slipping and breaking anything?17:20
directhexbrobostigon, lower than this morning17:20
dwatkinsdon't fall in the canal, especially with a phone17:21
dwatkinsmy iPhone is booting, but wifi and bluetooth don't work, and the touchscreen isn't working correctly.17:21
brobostigondirecthex: ok, good, i was alittle worried seeing ice everywhere.17:21
brobostigondwatkins: yes, best avoided.17:21
daftykinsdwatkins: booting with iOS, or...?17:23
popeydwatkins: have you done the usual put the phone in a pot of rice/coffee?17:27
popeybit late now, probably should have back when you hauled yourself out of the canal ⍨17:28
daftykinsooh now i see what he means17:28
daftykinsindeed, full disassemble time17:28
daftykinsget the anhydrous goodness going17:28
solarcloud_3srcnAnyone heard of Spearmint [not the Rhino !!] ??  http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTI4MzY17:47
solarcloud_3srcnpopey: Your right, It's Prob.ly not relevant.17:51
* popey shrugs17:55
brobostigonboots i reckon, for my walk to the pub, play safe.18:01
MartijnVdSBBC HD - Bletchley Park 's Lost Heroes18:05
MartijnVdS*now* :)18:05
solarcloud_3srcnOne for VLC :::: http://www.nasa.gov/mp4/721845main_marsdunes20130124-320-jpl.mp418:05
=== Ruint_ is now known as Ruint
solarcloud_3srcnNew group on identi.ca  :::http://identi.ca/group/libreplanet18:42
popeyis there any point using identi.ca when Ev is shutting it down?18:44
solarcloud_3srcnit's not shut down yet .. that's like saying why buy a newspaper if the Idependant 'I' will go outta print.18:46
popeynot really18:47
solarcloud_3srcnwell, it still gives me great news, so it is.18:48
* solarcloud_3srcn lives in the *now*.18:48
solarcloud_3srcnalbeit a noosphere...18:48
czajkowskipopey: why is he shutting it down ?18:59
solarcloud_3srcnczajkowski: No-one knows , but the new license is MIT , I thnk.  I'll see if anyone's flattr'd it recently, hang-on.19:11
solarcloud_3srcnOk, so the founder has only 119 flattr's and mostly uses fbook .. http://flattr.com/profile/evan/things Also people are not 'claiming their donations with http://flattr.com/thing/425469/statusnet-on-Twitter having 42 unclaimed donations. so it's not that there's no money, It's that the dude don't care.19:24
solarcloud_3srcnWhat was it that *Mouth* said on the goonies ? All that 'rich stuff' unclaimed ... http://flattr.com/catalog/unclaimed/toplist19:27
popeyczajkowski: he said identica was only ever set up as an example of what status.net can do19:47
popeyhe's moved on to pump.io or whatever his new thing of choice is19:48
directhexidentica.ca was never useful19:49
ali1234suppose i want to install upstream git in /usr/local, how do i remove the packaged version without breaking dependencies?19:56
solarcloud_3srcndirecthex: It's so un-useful it's on my browser bar !! It for people who share, not ppl. who just suck on the pipe of the day. Maybe some ppl just wouldn't understand.19:56
ali1234is there some way to make apt think that the package is installed without having the files in the filesystem?19:56
daftykinssym links not good enough?19:57
solarcloud_3srcnI dont know what they are ?19:57
ali1234sym links?19:57
directhexali1234, yes. you want software called "equivs"19:58
ali1234directhex: just found that on askubuntu actually...19:58
directhexwhich takes a small input file (there are examples in /usr/share/docs) and produces an empty dummy package to satisfy dependencies19:58
popeysolarcloud_3srcn: it might be good for getting news, but no good for interacting with real people.20:03
ali1234neither is twitter20:04
ali1234i'm getting lots of obvious spam accounts on my wordpress20:12
ali1234but they're not doing anything20:12
ali1234they all have names that match "wk[a-z]{2}[0-9]{3}[a-z]{3}"20:13
ali1234and free email addresses from hotmail, gmail, ymail etc20:13
solarcloud_3srcnali1234: It's not like anyone knows anyone on wordpress anyway ...20:22
daftykinsis kismet not spotting them easily?20:23
ali1234i don't use it on that site20:23
ali1234kismet scans comments anyway20:23
ali1234they haven't posted any20:23
daftykinsoh accounts20:23
ali1234they're just making hundreds of accounts and then not doing anything20:24
daftykinsi'm not even sure if that's happening on mine20:24
daftykinsoh i think i have just requirements to enter name+email20:24
ali1234we require a full account in order to comment20:25
ali1234we had zero spam problems20:25
ali1234well, none have been reported to me anyway20:25
daftykinshmm wp 3.5.120:26
ali1234hmm i like the whirly new icon on raring20:27
ali1234unity still unbelievably slow in a VM though20:27
daftykinsyeah pretty bad in vmware workstation 820:28
ali1234hmm so when i booted raring dbus-service immediately crashed20:28
ali1234it's reported on launchpad, claims to be fixed released, in the package version i have installed20:29
ali1234it's clearly the same bug as it's only 2 days old20:29
ali1234should i reopen bug or make a new one?20:29
ali1234dconf-service sorry20:29
ali1234i will make a new bug, and if it is marked duplicate i'll reopen the original bug20:30
ali1234does the daily image have a build number or something?20:30
penguin42bug number?20:31
ali1234bug 110510220:31
lubotu3bug 1105102 in glib2.0 (Ubuntu) "dconf-service crashed with SIGSEGV in g_variant_builder_add_value()" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110510220:31
popeyi saw mention of a dconf issue yesterday in -desktop20:31
ali1234"This bug was fixed in the package glib2.0 - 2.35.4-0ubuntu5"20:32
ali1234nope, i have that version installed after using daily iso20:32
daftykinsi keep reading 'raring' as RARing20:32
ali1234and it still crashes immediately on first boot20:32
ali1234daftykins: me too20:32
daftykinsglad to hear i'm not alone there20:32
ali1234heh, changelog "should" fix20:33
penguin42ali1234: Reopen I'd say, either that or if you've already opened a new one then put a comment there pointing to it20:33
ali1234penguin42: ok, i'll reopen20:33
ali1234actually i might be misreading apt-cache output, let me check20:34
daftykinsare you re-opening 1105102 or 1104883 that's claimed as a dupe too?20:35
ali1234i dunno yet20:35
ali1234haven't determined which version is actually installed20:36
ali1234apt-cache output is horrible and unclear20:36
ali1234synaptic isn't installed20:36
ali1234software center won't tell me20:36
ali1234so i'm kind of stumped20:36
ali1234ah glib2.0 is a source package anyway20:37
ali1234actually, i can't reopen the bug20:39
ali1234well then i'll just make a new one20:41
penguin42ali1234: dpkg -l to find the current version of something20:43
penguin42ali1234: (sometimes | cat   to force it to give full version)20:43
ali1234glib2.0 is a source package... so that doesn't work20:43
ali1234gotta know the binary name20:44
penguin42dpkg -l libglib2.0-020:44
ali1234it's the new version20:45
ali1234opened a new bug as it's the only thing i can do20:45
ali1234but 110632220:45
ali1234bug 110632220:46
lubotu3Error: Launchpad bug 1106322 could not be found20:46
ali1234and it's private20:46
solarcloud_3srcnthat's what she said.20:46
ali1234bug 110632220:46
penguin42hang on20:52
penguin42ali1234: OK, so you believe it's 1105102 that should be reopened?20:53
ali1234i don't know20:54
penguin42ali1234: I've reopened 1105102 and put a link to your new bug20:54
ali1234since i can't reopen it it's irrelevant what i think :)20:54
penguin42ali1234: Not necessarily, I might believe you!20:55
ali1234i have absolutely no idea if it's the same bug or not20:56
ali1234my question was about the correct procedure20:56
penguin42ali1234: Looks like it's the same to me; but I suspect the backtrace might not have enough info to be sure20:57
ali1234well it's pretty easy t reproduce20:58
ali1234why does no one ever actually look at why this stuff crashes?20:58
ali1234i mean there's a patch that says "variant checking"20:58
ali1234what exactly was the variant that caused the crash? and where did it come from?20:59
ali1234why didn't it happen on developer machines?20:59
ali1234just fixing bugs is not enough in my opinion20:59
penguin42ali1234: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/raring/glib2.0/raring-proposed/revision/188  is the comemnt on the actual fix21:02
ali1234tells me absolutely nothing21:03
penguin42ali1234: I don't think there is any testing on the dailies - so it's entirely possible the first time that glib version has been paired with the app that crashes it didn't come together until that daily was built21:03
ali1234fair enough21:04
ali1234but that's speculation21:04
penguin42ali1234: If you look a the debian/patches/git_fix_gvariant_tuple_checking.patch  entry there is a long explanation of the mistake that was made in glib21:04
ali1234and besides, if software is really that brittle, something is wron21:04
penguin42ali1234: Software really is that brittle21:04
ali1234so what that means is somewhere there is another bug, which is now hidden by fixing this one...21:07
penguin42ali1234: Well glib is in the end the low level library, so it's the one that's supposed to be the careful one; and  yes I agree the way I read it is the crash is the result of a compound of two bugs21:08
ali1234i don't think i've ever seen a bug that wasn't really two or more bugs21:09
ali1234glib should scream blue murder if an app does something bad21:09
ali1234like instead of spamming warnings that nobody looks at, force terminate the app21:10
penguin42ali1234: Have you tried running most gnome apps from the command line and seeing how much screaming goes on?21:10
penguin42ali1234: It's a hard trade off - do you crash an app because of a small error; you don't really want stuff to crash, so in terms of how many times does it screw up for the end user it's difficult to know; but I'd love for the day when .xsesession-errors is empty to be soon21:11
ali1234if it crashed like that since day one, developers would have no choice but to fix the problems21:12
penguin42ali1234: Yeh so one way is to have a more severe mode that does crash on every warning and then get the devs to run with that turned on21:12
ali1234well making it option isn't much use... if they were going to do that they could just look at the warnings21:13
penguin42ali1234: But then turn that off at release so it doesn't break stuff for the user21:13
ali1234plus, if it's even possible to continue, why is it even a warning?21:14
penguin42ali1234: One problem though is when a library adds another check, an app that was written against an older lib would then die even if it would have carried on working21:14
ali1234so: stop futzing with the API, and stop building tightly coupled systems like dconf21:15
penguin42ali1234: Doesn't work in practice21:15
ali1234did anyone ever try it?21:15
penguin42ali1234: It's not just api futzing, a dev might notice something else that an app could do wrong and add a check for it21:16
ali1234all possible ways of using an API should be valid21:17
penguin42ali1234: An interesting difference between debian and ubuntu is that ubuntu uses Fortify that spots buffer overflows, and a lot of universe segs early on because of that spot21:17
ali1234good :)21:17
penguin42ali1234: A lot of them are almost false postives; i.e. things that are technically wrong but could never actually cause something to break21:18
ali1234that's what i mean21:18
ali1234that shouldn't be a possible situation, ever21:18
ali1234this is a fundamental problem in software development as we know it21:19
penguin42ali1234: I think it's harder with things like Java, but they still seem to find ways to crash with Null pointer checks21:20
ali1234managed code does help but it doesn't stop people making bad APIs21:20
penguin42ali1234: It feels like what you're asking for is actually impossible21:20
penguin42it kind of feels like it's wandering into a halting problem like thing21:21
ali1234ban loops21:21
penguin42good idea21:21
ali1234but yeah, that's why i said it's a fundamental problem21:21
penguin42ali1234: There are languages where dynamic allocation is banned but then they're frankly useless21:22
ali1234it's not like i have a solution21:22
* penguin42 has worked on some static analysis tools - they're good for some stuff21:22
popeywe use coverity on some projects21:24
penguin42yeh I've seen some coverity scans - quite neat21:25
penguin42popey: But ali1234 has a good point; forcing people to watch the warning output of gnome apps would be a good thing!21:26
ali1234a big problem with those warnings is they are so unspecific21:28
ali1234could it throw an exception, launch gdb, and show me a backtrace?21:29
penguin42ali1234: You can nail a debugger on them and find what's going on; compare them to python or java errors where you get a page of splurge and then have to figure out whether you care or not21:29
ali1234otherwise i have no idea where the problem i21:29
penguin42yeh I don't think it's hard to attach a debugger to them21:29
ali1234python errors are excellent. full backtrace every time. what vould be better than that?21:30
penguin42ali1234: Bit of a pain for warnings; again something switchable so you can see it when you're prepared to takethe time to debug it would be good21:30
ali1234catch it, or the program crashes21:31
ali1234oh great, i love it when apport says my packages are out of date even though the new ones aren't available on any mirror.21:45
popeywhich mirror?21:51
solarcloud_3srcnWho cares about real ppl .. It's not who it is but what is being said, surely. 'Real people' .. come from Madrid .. and they're crap in bed anyway.21:53
solarcloud_3srcnpopey, soz that was from some time ago ..21:54
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away
ali1234wow ... gnome-panel fails to build from source on raring23:39
ali1234both the source package and the upstream bug23:39
ali1234bug 110644023:48
lubotu3bug 1106440 in gnome-panel (Ubuntu) "fails to build from source on raring" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110644023:48
penguin42ali1234: Is that failing in the build farm as well?23:54
ali1234i have no idea how t check that23:54
ali1234but i would love to know23:54
ali1234successfully built on the 18th23:56
penguin42erm I can't find it either at the moment, but it's possible one of hte23:57
penguin42the packages it depends on has been updated; the other possibility is that you have something in your environment that is stopping it building - e.g. something that's installed that isn't installed on the builders23:58
ali1234i don't have much installed... literally what i said in the steps to reproduce... it's a vm23:58
ali1234so i'm guessing the former23:58

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