penguin42ali1234: Interesting00:20
penguin42ali1234: I've just got a package update for libgtk and the change in it is 'Enable Wayland backend' - and your error is that it can't find the wayland stuff00:20
ali1234sounds like the culprit00:20
penguin42ali1234: Can you tell me the version of your libgtk-3-0* packages - are they 3.6.4-0ubuntu2 ?00:21
penguin42ali1234: Ah someone got there a few hours before you00:57
penguin42yeh it's just been duped to bug 110618800:58
lubotu3bug 1106188 in gtk+3.0 (Ubuntu) "Unable to build any GTK app, because of missing wayland-client.pc" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/110618800:58
ali1234i'm really disappointed this guy never posts https://plus.google.com/u/0/109940541467224286660/posts01:23
ali1234here is a classic example of useless glib errors03:18
ali1234ERROR:panel-applet.c:2087:panel_applet_constructed: code should not be reached Aborted (core dumped)03:18
ali1234gnome-panel doesn't contain a file called panel-applet.c03:18
daftykinsshould not be reached? sounds like an intentional fail03:18
ali1234and the bug is obviously in gnome-panel03:19
ali1234and i know exactly how to reproduce it03:19
ali1234oh wait, my bad03:20
ali1234it's under a different directory03:20
popeyhappy birthday Laney06:19
* MartijnVdS played with Blender's video editing bits yesterday.. once you get used to "How Blender does things" it's quite good07:16
gingI have a birthday tommorow!07:29
popeyour snowman is dying08:14
SuperMattmorning chumps08:58
popeypip pip09:16
knightwisemorning everyone09:43
knightwisesmall question09:43
knightwisei've installed ubuntu on my macbook air and found out that if I upgrade the kernell,09:44
knightwisethe wifi stops working;09:44
knightwiseits ok "out of the box" in .17, but it breaks in .2209:44
knightwiseso i've reinstalled the .17 , but how to do i tell Gnome it needs to pick "that one" instead of the .22 ?09:44
knightwisei mean Grub , not gnome09:44
ali1234easymode: uninstall .22?09:45
knightwiseah , thats also an option :)09:45
ali1234hardmode: edit the grub.conf (every time you install a new kernel)09:45
knightwisehadn't thought of that :)09:45
knightwiseah , ok  , i'll try that one too.09:45
ali1234super hardmode: build a package of .17 with a fake extra version bump09:45
ali1234super duper hardmode: get the bug fixed upstream09:45
knightwisenaaah :-)09:45
ali1234actually the last one isn't that hard09:46
ali1234also what is .22?09:46
knightwiselatest kernell version09:46
ali1234do you mean 3.5.0-22?09:46
knightwiseit works fine in the .17 , but breaks in the .2209:46
ali1234so what you need to do is test the vanilla kernels09:47
ali1234test the newest upstream kernel and report it as broken upstream if that doesn't work09:47
ali1234then do a bisect to find exactly where it breaks... though you ca probably find it by eyeballing the distro git09:48
ali1234since there won't be too many commits09:48
ali1234let me look...09:48
knightwiseok , its a 2012 macbook air.09:48
knightwise11.6 inch version09:48
ali1234that doesn't tell me much09:48
ali1234what wifi chipset?09:48
ali1234can you test the intermediate kernels... 18, 19, 20, 21?09:49
knightwiseok , i"ll do that later on and report back to  ? i'll install the intermediate ones09:49
ali1234not sure if they will still be available09:49
ali123423 is actually newest on git...09:50
knightwiseyep , i think so , i got the entire list when i do sudo apt-get install09:50
knightwiseat the dinner table at the moment :) 'ill check in a jiffy09:50
knightwisewifey looking at me all strange when I talk about kernels and stuff ;)09:51
ali1234is it BCM4322?09:54
knightwiseThe 2012 MacBook Air also features the same Broadcom BCM4322 Intesifi Single-Chip 802.11n Wi-Fi Transceiver, and Broadcom BCM20702 Single-Chip Bluetooth 4.0 Processor with Bluetooth Low Energy support. The stereo speaker design is also identical to models released in 2011 and 2010.09:56
ali1234yeah i read that too09:56
ali1234but what modules does it use when it actually works?09:57
knightwiseerm . i'll have to be on the machine for that , give me a couple of minutes to finish brekkies and i'll check09:57
ali1234i see a couple of bcm patches09:58
SuperMatthttp://www.fandigital.com/p/zoncolor.html < this is one of the first theme packs where I've seen someone *really* put the work in09:58
knightwisein the .23 ?09:58
ali1234no, between 17 and 2210:00
ali1234SuperMatt: that looks pretty good10:01
SuperMattit bloody well is!10:01
knightwiseyeah , but in the .22 i boot with no wifi adapter detected ,10:03
knightwisewhen I boot in the .17 its ok.10:03
knightwiseso i'll see where it breaks along the way10:03
knightwisei'm  at the machine ,10:07
ali1234SuperMatt: what font is that?10:08
knightwisei think i'll need to boot into 1.17 to find out what the wifi chipset is .. right ?10:08
SuperMattali1234: where?10:08
ali1234yeah that would be best10:08
ali1234SuperMatt: on your screenshot10:08
ali1234is it droid sans?10:08
SuperMattI only ever use the ubuntu font10:08
ali1234ubuntu is not that narrow10:08
SuperMattyou talking about in the middle?10:08
SuperMattI need to know specifically where :P10:09
SuperMattthere's lots of fonts on the page10:09
ali1234no, on the panel10:09
ali1234also why does the clock text align properly with your name?10:09
SuperMattpanel is definitely ubuntu10:09
ali1234you've set hinting to maximum :(10:09
SuperMattbut I use tweak tool to knock the font scaling down to 0.710:09
ali1234how can you look at your indicator area and not feel physically ill?10:10
SuperMattI don't tend to look up there all that much10:11
ali1234it's only out by one pixel but damn, it looks annoying as hell to me10:11
SuperMattbut you're right about that10:11
ali1234i would switch desktop over that10:11
SuperMattI'm running raring at the mo10:11
ali1234it's why i don't use KDE :)10:11
SuperMattcould be that it's only shifted becayse I changed the theme and need to log out and back in again10:11
ali1234is @billgates the real bill gates?10:13
SuperMattprobably not10:13
SuperMattoh wait, you mean on twitter10:13
SuperMattcould be10:13
ali1234it's not very amusing for a parody account10:14
dwatkinshttps://twitter.com/BillGates says 'verified'10:14
ali1234must be real10:14
dwatkinshe does a lot of good charity work10:14
dwatkinsno idea if it's just dealing with the 'symptoms' or the actual causes of poverty etc. but that's another question10:15
SuperMattok, there's a file in the homedir somewhere where you set the paths of your Pictures and Music folders, etc10:17
SuperMattwhere is that?10:17
SuperMattgot it10:17
dwatkinsoh cool, what's the file, SuperMatt?10:17
SuperMattshoulda just looked in .config anyway#10:18
SuperMatteven after logging out and back in again, my time/name thing is still out of whack10:20
SuperMattblame raring10:20
dwatkinsout of whack in what way, SuperMatt?10:20
SuperMatttake a look at my earlier pic10:20
dwatkinsI assume you can't move/remove the middle one even by holding down alt or some other modifier10:21
SuperMattwell, it's unity10:22
SuperMattso probably not10:22
SuperMattit doesn't bother me10:23
SuperMattonly other people10:23
ali1234it makes me (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻)10:24
SuperMattit may well be a raring thing10:25
SuperMattone tic10:25
SuperMattI have another raring screenshot10:25
SuperMattsame in the other one10:25
SuperMattI guess it's time I raised a bug10:25
SuperMattI guess it's not the date that's in the wrong place, I think it's the name because that's not on by default10:26
ali1234the date looks like is is misaligned to me10:26
SuperMattali1234: submitted10:32
lukaszCould you help me to install lastest firefox (18.0) ?10:33
lukaszI have downloaded and extracted package10:33
lukaszI dont know how is next10:33
popeysaw that, thought of AlanBell10:34
brobostigongood morning everyone,10:34
SuperMattlukasz: I believe that firefox 19 is now in the repositories10:35
SuperMattif you run an update, it'll be there10:35
=== Lcawte|Away is now known as Lcawte
popeySuperMatt: 19 is in beta, 18 is in the repo11:04
popeySuperMatt: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1576051/11:04
SuperMattah, fair enough11:06
SuperMattI don't use firefox these days11:06
popeyme either11:07
SuperMatthaving said that, I do constantly change when I find firefox/chrome has a feature that chrome/firefox doesn't have11:08
Paladinehey folks11:15
PaladineI just wanted to let the apple users among you know that I am assisting Olswang with a UK based group action against Google for bypassing Safari cookie settings between sept 2011/Feb 2012 - if any of you want to join the lawsuit please get in touch with with Daniel.Tench@olswang.com this is a serious lawsuit with a very prestigious law firm behind it, if you want more info feel free to pm me11:17
jacobwPaladine: that's interesting11:27
jacobwPaladine: i've heard of "class action" in the US, is this something similar?11:28
Paladinethis is a Group Action which is similar yes11:30
Paladinewe are hoping to enjoin millions of UK users11:31
Paladinepotentially the biggest ever lawsuit in the UK11:31
MartijnVdStoo bad only 3 people use Safari11:31
Paladineactually 10s of millions of UK people use safari11:31
MartijnVdS10s of people 8-)11:31
jacobwthat's a lot of people11:31
Paladineon their iPhones, iPads, Mac Books, Windows Machines11:31
MartijnVdSPaladine: pop = 62,641,000; no way >1 in 6 has a mac11:32
popeySounds like a nice little earner for the lawyers11:32
PaladineMartijnVdS, check the metrics on Apple devices in us in the UK11:33
dwatkinsI use an Apple device, but I use Chrome and Firefox.11:33
Paladineoh and disclaimer, I am not getting paid for assisting Olswang in this case11:33
jacobwSafari has run on Windows since 2008 :|11:34
MartijnVdSPaladine: also, how many of those people block cookies, etc.11:34
Paladinealthough I don't know if that will change in the future, if it does I will make sure I disclose it11:34
dwatkinswho benefits from this lawsuit, Paladine? I'm genuinely curious what the ideal result would be.11:34
PaladineMartijnVdS, you don't understand the case do you, Google were BYPASSING Safari cookie blocking11:34
MartijnVdSPaladine: but if you don't enable the blocking in the first place.. there's nothing to bypass11:34
PaladineSafari blocks 3rd party cookies by default11:35
PaladineGoogle found a way to circumvent the settings11:35
dwatkinsI suspect a very small group of people have 1) iOS/OS X 2) Safari as their main browser and 3) Cookies blocked11:35
jacobwSolve breaking and entering by not locking your door?11:35
dwatkinsah ok, it's the default11:35
popeydwatkins: nah, loads of people who buy iPhones have that exact combination11:36
Paladineand ipads11:36
dwatkinsfair enough, popey11:36
dwatkinsso what should happen, assuming the lawsuit is successful? is it a slap on the wrist for Google, or is the money meant to do something?11:37
Paladineif the lawsuit is successful we are expecting damages against google to the tune of 10s of millions11:37
ali1234"Apple holds 28% of the UK smartphone market, with 8.6 million users"11:37
Paladinemaybe even in excess of 100 million11:38
dwatkinsso each iPhone user gets £11.63?11:38
Paladineali, that is the smartphone market, not add to that ipads, mac books (pro and airs), apple desktop machines etc.11:38
ali1234each user will get £1, lawyers take the rest11:38
MartijnVdSAlso, Google have stopped doing it and apologised. This tends to count in court.11:39
Paladinethis case isn't about money, it is about making sure Google pay the penalty for breaching the law11:39
ali1234Paladine: iphone owners and ipad owners are the same people11:39
popeythat £1 doesn't begin to cover the lack of care most people have11:39
SuperMattand the people that benefit from that penalty are?11:39
dwatkinsali1234: indeed, I am concerned this will result in Google paying out, lawyers making ots of money, but users not benefitting apart from a slightly higher liklihood companies won't circumvent such defaults in future11:39
jacobwThe EU cookie law requires from consent from a user before a cookie is set on they're browser, if one of the major web companies is violating this law either by ignoring it or circumventing enforcement mechanisms like cookie blocking (which is more deliberate than ignoring the law) then they're definitely liable to a group action claim IMO11:39
Paladineali, not true, for example, I was an iPad owner but not an iPhone user11:39
MartijnVdSPaladine: better go after more large companies for not (or hardly) paying tax then11:39
ali1234popey, how many ipads and iphones do you have now?11:40
popeyhousehold has one ipad, two iphones, two machines running osx11:40
popeyonly one of them runs safari11:40
PaladineSupermatt, the entire UK benefit, because it sends a clear message to the rest of the big tech companies that circumventing law will have serious consequences11:40
jacobwThe users benefit from the company being challenged on it's violation of the law that users as part of the electorate that provides the legislature with the mandate to created11:41
popeyi see the US have already gone through this..11:41
popeylooks like someone in the UK being opportunistic11:41
SuperMattyes, but if google are fined, what benefit do the people get? where does the money go11:41
MartijnVdSSuperMatt: lawyers11:41
Paladinenow feel free to disagree as much as you like, I merely came here to let you all know about the lawsuit (because I know a lot of people here have apple devices) dont shoot the messenger11:41
popeywell, you're not just a messenger11:41
popeyyou're working on it11:41
ali1234this is interesting information to me anyway11:42
popeyits interesting11:42
dwatkinsPaladine: I appreciate the message being sent to companies like Google. It's good this is happening in general.11:42
ali1234i mean i don't give a toss about apple users... apple does far worse to them than google ever has, and they do it every day11:42
ali1234just because it's legal doesn't make it moral11:42
dwatkinsPersonally I'd prefer the proceeds to be given to some relevant charity, but anyway.11:42
jacobwIf they're fined by the EU body that's responsible for web regulation then that body will have more funds to do it's work, though each litigant will have to pay legal fees as all litigants do11:42
PaladineI have worked on improving cookie laws in the UK for the last 5 years, this is the first time I have had an opportunity to take such an action and raise so much awareness11:43
Paladineso yeah, I agreed to help them when they contacted me11:43
ali1234oh, so you;re the one we should blame for that disaster then?11:43
jacobwI didn't realize how cynical this channel was :|11:43
MartijnVdSali1234: it's not as bad as the one we have.. where _explicit consent_ is required to set cookies.. and guess how it's stored if you don't want cookies.11:44
PaladineI worked personally on the changes to 5(3) of the ePrivacy Directive with the EU Commission, yeah, and I am proud of that work11:44
dwatkinsMartijnVdS: lolwut11:44
MartijnVdSali1234: I have a browser preference flag.. why can't the law just let me use that?11:44
MartijnVdSdwatkins: Dutch lawmakers = computer-illiterate11:44
dwatkinsMartijnVdS: sadly this does not surprise me11:44
jacobwPaladine: thanks, web privacy is important to many of us11:44
PaladineMartijnVdS, because 99% of the population know absolutely nothing about browser settings nor ever change them, just because you are tech savvy does that mean everyone else should just go to hell?11:45
MartijnVdSPaladine: No, but requiring every site to have a (different!) pop-up is annoying as well.11:45
Paladineand I happen to know the Dutch Law Makers very well, they are far from computer illiterate, they are some of the most well informed legislators in Europe11:45
dwatkins"For cookies that are deemed to be ‘strictly necessary for the delivery of a service requested by the user’ the consent of the user is not needed."11:45
Paladinethereis no requirement to have pop-ups11:45
MartijnVdSPaladine: Browser makers could implement it instead of website builders: just like "This site wants to install a plugin" or "It wants to know your location"11:46
MartijnVdSPaladine: no there's a requirement for disclosure (and in some countries, consent)11:46
Paladinepop-ups were implemtented by the ad industry to deliberately make the situation cumbersome and make users complain, looks like they managed to trick you eh?11:46
dwatkinsI remember pop-ups.11:46
MartijnVdSPaladine: bbc.co.uk ?11:47
PaladineMartijnVdS, I am a respected expert on 5(3) across the world, I know it incredibly well, I worked on it, so I know everything there is to know about the law, the process which made it law and the lobbying by industry against it, I have lived and breathed 5(3) for the last 5 years11:47
MartijnVdSPaladine: they don't do ads...11:48
MartijnVdSbut they DO have the annoying popup11:48
Paladine5(3) is not just about ads11:48
Paladineit is about tracking11:48
Paladineit isnt just ads that track11:48
MartijnVdSAs if they won't find other ways to do that.11:48
PaladineBBC have a whoile bunch of tracking technologies on their site11:48
ali1234so what's the alternative to popups?11:49
MartijnVdSAlso, only European sites have to comply. US sites just ignore it.11:49
MartijnVdSali1234: "no tracking"11:49
ali1234just remove all tracking technology from the site?11:49
Paladineand 5(3) isn't just about cookies it is about any technology which requires interaction with an end users terminal equipment in order to track them11:49
dwatkinsGhostery is handy as a browser extension, blocks all manner ot trackers. Some websites show over ten different systems in use.11:49
Paladineso it includes device identifiers and serverside fingerprinting too11:49
kvarleyHow can I enable remote desktop viewing from an SSH session?11:49
MartijnVdSkvarley: which way?11:49
MartijnVdSkvarley: view the desktop of another machine on the SSH client, or view the desktop of an SSH server on an SSH client?11:50
kvarleyI'm logged into my desktop on SSH and want to enable remote desktop access on my desktop for all11:50
kvarleySo enable VNC from ssh11:50
solarcloud_3srcnMorning.  I just fell outta bed !11:50
dwatkinsx11vnc is what I use for this11:50
MartijnVdSkvarley: that's going to be hard..11:50
Paladineactually US sites have to comply too and this will soon be much more clear when the new Data Protection Regulation becomes law in 201611:50
kvarleyMartijnVdS: What's the config util in ubuntu called? Surely I can just run the config app via SSH with X forwarding?11:51
MartijnVdSkvarley: no, because your session variables (Dbus etc.) don't match up11:51
MartijnVdSPaladine: Still, the current way of notifying is BAD11:51
PaladineI was just in Brussels last week in meetings with Article 29 Working Party, EU Politicians, EU Commission and the FTC11:51
MartijnVdSPaladine: and I'm still not convinced the tracking is 100% bad11:51
PaladineFTC are currently beginning discussion with EU regulators about bringing mutual actions against privacy violaters11:52
Paladineit is not about whether the tracking is good or bad, it is about obtaining consent11:52
Paladineyou want tracking and profiling of your behaviour that is fine, many people don't, the law requires consent be given, you want it give your consent11:52
ali1234public websites should be covered by implied consent like anything else public11:53
ali1234"in my opinion"11:53
MartijnVdSPaladine: so set an HTTP header, have the browser add one of those "permission" bars like it does for the "Location" API, or something11:53
Paladineresearch shows that implied consent is bad because most of the population are not tech savvy and therefore never change their settings but they don't like being tracked when they are made aware of it11:53
MartijnVdSPaladine: so I can configure my browser for "consent to everything" if I want to.. or "Deny everything"11:53
ali1234it doesn't matter11:53
Paladinethat is why we spent 5 years changing the law to require informed consent11:53
MartijnVdSPaladine: we have sites that only work if you click "Yes, I accept tracking cookies"11:54
MartijnVdSPaladine: if you don't, you get a blank page with "Enable cookies anyway"11:54
ali1234actually they say "yes, i accept cookies"11:54
ali1234no mention of tracking11:54
Paladineso they lose most of their visitors then, their loss11:54
MartijnVdSPaladine: except they dont11:54
ali1234basically it just says "click here to make website work"11:54
ali1234absolutely nobody refuses11:54
ali1234nobody is informed11:55
ali1234you cannot legislate around stupidity11:55
MartijnVdSnot usefully anywy11:55
Paladineali, that is because the Information Commissioners Office in the UK are in breach of EU Law and advising sites to use implied consent (against EU law) that will be dealt with with the new regulation11:55
kvarleyMartijnVdS: I used an SSH session with X forwarding to run "vino-preferences" which allowed me to gain access to a VNC session :)11:55
MartijnVdSkvarley: ok11:55
Paladineali, currently 8% of visitors across a large sample are refusing to accept the cookies11:55
ali1234no, it's because nobody reads the damn popups11:55
Paladinethat is a HUGE nbumber11:55
MartijnVdSPaladine: I'm in the Netherlands, explicit consent is required here11:55
MartijnVdSPaladine: the popups just get more annoying, it doesn't help with educating users11:56
PaladineMartijnVdS, I know, I know the netherlands law and legislators very well11:56
ali1234i could easily see that the 8% is people who clicked the wrong button on accident11:56
* kvarley never accepts cookie disclosures for random sites because it's wasting my time11:56
Paladineali, there is only 1 button "Accept"11:56
kvarleyIs providing an opt-out button ok?11:56
Paladineso they cant click the wrong one11:56
ali1234that's not true, sometimes there are two buttons11:56
Paladineno opt-out isnt compliant11:56
Paladineali, the sites we are monitoring are using a single button11:56
ali1234so, what you're saying is that 8% of users... do nothing?11:57
Paladinewe are monitoring a wide sample of sites using the same api11:57
ali1234how do you monitor that exactly?11:57
MartijnVdShonour system?11:57
Paladinewe have access to the API stats11:57
ali1234since there is no button to opt out, there are no stats on how many people opted out11:58
Paladineand yes 8% of users are doing nothing11:58
ali1234it's like saying "100% of people who didn't visit the site rejected tracking"11:58
Paladinewe know how many people are visiting the page and how many people are clicking the "Allow" or "Continue" button11:58
Paladineso yes it is easy to derive stats on how many arent11:58
MartijnVdSPaladine: do you have stats on how many people actually read the notice, and how many accidentally clicked the wrong button?11:59
ali1234what does one of these sites look like anyway?11:59
MartijnVdSbecause those numbers are very important in determining whether it's effective11:59
Paladineand the 8% is why the US lobby are so strong at the moment, because to you 8% may not sound liek a lot (and this is before DNT is even implemented) but to big corps 8% is a huge number11:59
ali1234have you got an example of "the correct way"?11:59
MartijnVdSali1234: omroep.nl11:59
Paladinewe are seeing similar figures for DNT in Firefox too, around 7%12:00
ali1234so you can't use the site at all without accepting cookies?12:00
Paladineso before DNT has even become a standard, 7% of users are enabling it12:00
MartijnVdSPaladine: is that "7% wants to be tracked" or "7% does NOT want &"12:00
Paladinewe are currently still gathering stats for Chrome12:00
Paladine7% turn on DNT12:00
Paladinebrb need to go bathroom12:01
Azelphurthis reminds me to turn on DNT.12:01
MartijnVdSali1234: yes, because they're required by law to track how many visitors they get, from which part(s) of the country/world12:01
MartijnVdSali1234: and there's no exception in the "cookie law".. so you HAVE to accept their tracking cookies if you want to use the site(s)12:02
ali1234hmm also, how exactly do you track the number of people who don't want to be tracked, without breaking the law you're trying to monitor?12:02
MartijnVdSali1234: I have no idea.12:02
MartijnVdSI love how the "I don't want to be tracked" data is stored.. in a cookie12:03
ali1234if there is a site which has no purpose other than tracking people, is it covered by the "strictly necessary" exception?12:04
MartijnVdSLike "Google Analytics"?12:04
MartijnVdSAs far as I've heard.. no12:04
ali1234nah. more like a site that just says "you last visited on ..." and nothing else at all12:05
PaladineMartijnVdS, there is no law which requires web sites to track visitors12:07
Paladinethe Data Retention Directive only applies to telecommunications companies, not content providers12:07
Paladineso I am not sure why you think it does12:07
MartijnVdSPaladine: Dutch Public Broadcasting is required to keep stats on its visitors12:07
Paladineand where did you see that?12:08
Paladinebecause I know the dutch law very well and it is explicitly written into the dutch transposition of the data retention directive that content providers are NOT required to retain data12:09
MartijnVdSPaladine: it's part of the charter of "Dutch Public Broadcasting" (NPO) to report on its performance.12:10
MartijnVdSPaladine: i.e. how many people it's reaching, related demographic data12:10
PaladineCharter != Law12:11
Paladinea Charter doesnt override law either12:11
Paladineso if their charter is incompatible with law they need to chaneg their charter12:11
MartijnVdSPaladine: except they won't get subsidies if they can't prove they're doing their work12:11
ali1234yeah, instead of having tracking cookies, they could just shut down instead12:11
MartijnVdSPaladine: and then we wouldn't have public broadcasting anymore12:11
ali1234they would be within the law12:11
Paladineyou can argue the point as much as you like, their charter doesn't override law, same as BBC's charter doesnt12:12
Paladineif their charter is incompatible with law they need to change it12:12
penguin42hmm impressive change in weather over night12:12
ali1234if the law is incompatible with reality they need to change it12:13
PaladineI will have a chat with Jacob Kohnstamm about it12:13
MartijnVdSPaladine: they can't change their own charter12:13
brobostigonpenguin42: that was yesterday, sun and gradual daytime increase in temperature.12:13
MartijnVdSPaladine: Dutch public broadcasting is.. weird12:13
Paladineali, if you dont like the law you are free to lobby to change it, that is the wonderful thing about democracy12:14
Paladineif you dont want to lobby to change it then dont complain about it12:14
ali1234tat's bullshit12:14
ali1234sorry but it is12:14
ali1234you're saying that anyone who can get a law passed automatically justifies that law as correct12:15
MartijnVdSThe Germans tried that years ago12:15
penguin42brobostigon: I think it actually his something like 7c last night, but down to 3c here now - all the snow's gone12:15
Paladineyeah it is soo much bullshit, that is why despite corporate lobby pumping millions of euros into lobbying against 5(3) changes, we still managed to have the law changed without any resources, just through democracy....such bullshit that12:15
MartijnVdSPaladine: next time, have it changed in a less idiotic way12:15
brobostigonpenguin42: yes, here it was about that temperature here also last night,12:15
Paladineali, I never said that at all, I said if you don't like a law lobby to have it changed.  I lobbied against 5(3) of the ePrivacy Directive and got it changed because I didn't agree with it, if you don't like something get off your ass and do somethign about it instead of just whining12:17
MartijnVdSPaladine: "mediawet" is the law that requires NPO to report its performance (which is incompatible with what's known as "cookie law" here)12:17
MartijnVdSPaladine: so yes.. we have conflicting laws.12:17
ali1234Paladine: lobbying and whining are exactly the same thing12:17
Paladineno lobbying is getting off your ass and delivering reasoned arguments backed up by empirical research to legislators12:18
ali1234if you whine long enough, the law will get changed, no matter how ridiculous what you are asking for it. you are the living proof of that.12:18
penguin42ali1234: http://research.cs.wisc.edu/cbi/  is an interesting approach top bug solving12:18
Paladinewhining is just what you are doing now12:18
PaladineMartijnVdS, I don't think mediawet is incompatible with the directive, the directive doesn't make it illegal to gather site statistics, it makes it illegal to track users without consent12:19
Paladinehaving stats which show 2 000 000 people from amsterdam visited this page on this day is not unlawful under the directive12:19
MartijnVdSPaladine: Except Dutch law is more strict than the EU directive.12:20
Paladinestats which show that 1 users with this IP address visited all these pages in succession - that is illegal without consent12:20
Paladinebecause it allows you to infer behaviour and build a profile12:20
Paladineno it isnt the dutch law is verbatim12:20
Paladineit is wored identically to the directive12:20
MartijnVdSIt's in need of a rewrite then12:21
Paladineit was passed by your constitutional court, so if you don't like it complain to them12:21
MartijnVdSPaladine: uhhh.. we have a constitutional court?12:22
ali1234penguin42: not sure how that is different to apport really...12:22
MartijnVdSas far as I know, Dutch law can't be tested for "constitution-compliance".12:22
Paladineyour supreme court makes judgements on constitutional matters12:22
penguin42ali1234: Oh read the detail it's very very different12:22
MartijnVdSPaladine: except cookie law != constitution12:23
penguin42ali1234: It's sampling normal running not  just crashes and it's sampling things like just branches12:23
PaladineDirective 5(3) of the ePrivacy Directive is based on the Lisbon Treaty articles on Privacy12:23
Paladineyou are a signatory to the Lisbon Treaty12:23
Paladinethe Lisbon Treaty is an EU Wide Consitution12:23
ali1234penguin42: but... i don't see how that's useful, to know that, for example "pos < x never, pos == x once, and pos > x fourteen times"12:23
ali1234i mean it still has to handle all those cases12:24
Paladinethe whole reason 5(3) was changed was because of the strengthening of Privacy as a fundamental citizens right under the Lisbon Treaty12:24
penguin42ali1234: The idea is to get massive correlation data that it normally goes that way, and then when something crashes you can flag that it's gone down an unusual path12:24
MartijnVdSPaladine: I'm not against what it's trying to accomplish, I just think it's trying to accomplish it in a bad way12:25
ali1234i guess that could help find one bug12:25
penguin42ali1234: They have examples of using it to find race conditions and lots of stuff12:25
ali1234buuuuuut... what i want is a programming language where bugs are impossible :)12:25
penguin42ali1234: I'll give you one; it's going to have the single verb 'doHelloWorld'12:25
jacobwthere's no bugs, just unexpected behaviors12:26
ali1234no, there are bugs12:26
ali1234segfault is not unexpected behaviour, it's *always* an error12:26
PaladineMartijnVdS, I say again, the directive is good, the way industry have chosen to comply is the problem, they have done so in a deliberate attempt to annoy consumers and drive them against the directive, I was present at all the meetings and saw the lobbying directily, I have even had meetings with the industry groups such as IAB, I know their methods and tactics very well12:26
jacobwyes :)12:26
MartijnVdSPaladine: It could have been prevented with more careful wording of the directive.12:27
penguin42we seem to have almost as many euphemisms for bugs as we do for sex12:27
Paladinethe Directive does not require compliance using the method industry have chosen, there are far more suitable methods of compliance, but the industry want to derail the law because it costs them money12:27
jacobwpenguin42: well, bugs and sex are very important to programmers, unfortunately they get much more the former ;)12:27
Paladineanyway I have a lot to do so I better get back to it, but thanks for the chat12:28
jacobwgood luck Paladine12:28
MartijnVdSfighting windmills12:28
penguin42jacobw: and that's before we get to endianness12:28
ali1234turing machines have a halting problem. but do we really need a turing machine to post stuff on twitter?12:29
penguin42ali1234: I'm not sure I know; but it's amazing how almost all systems turn out to be Turing machines if you look hard enough12:30
ali1234what if we have a programming language with only two datatypes: int, and char[139];12:30
* penguin42 hands ali1234 bcpl12:30
penguin42ali1234: If you can index into your char[139] array by a variable then I believe you have the same problem; you have to prove that it's not possible to overflow the 13912:31
ali1234you can't :)12:31
ali1234and no pointers either12:31
penguin42ali1234: If you can't index into the array then how do you form the contents?12:32
ali1234the programming language has a function readupto139charactersfromuser();12:32
penguin42ali1234: OK, so what operations can you do on tweet_t ?12:33
ali1234and the string would be neither readable nor writable12:33
ali1234or rather, it would be immutable12:33
ali1234or const, or whatever12:33
penguin42ali1234: Yeh so you're not going to be overflow it; but you're going to have a pretty basic tweet program12:34
ali1234essentially, an opaque blob12:34
ali1234also, maxint = 25612:34
penguin42why not 139 ?12:34
ali1234even better12:34
ali1234and each function can have no more than two arguments12:34
ali1234thus, it is possible to directly test all possible inputs to a function (since every string is equivalent)12:35
penguin42ali1234: The trick is you can make programming languages that you can't make any significant bugs in; but you can't do anything significant in them12:35
ali1234maybe you can' do anything significant, but that doesn't preclude writing a twitter client12:35
penguin42ali1234: In your language you can't highlight part of the tweet, edit it or do anything else12:35
penguin42ali1234: All you've done is move all the complexity into the implementation of the language (which can now do very little)12:36
ali1234well, this is what managed languages do...12:36
ali1234but obviously not to an extreme12:37
penguin42ali1234: The challenge is to get a language you can write useful programmes AND make it hard to write bugs12:37
ali1234we have loads of languages like that already12:38
ali1234i think it's more interesting to make a less useful language when bugs are impossible... it's a less explored avenue :)12:38
AlanBellthere are a few, depending on how you define bugs12:39
AlanBellhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATS_(programming_language) would be one12:40
ali1234yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing i'm talking about12:40
penguin42AlanBell: Interesting one12:43
solarcloud_3srcnHappy 300th issue of UWNews ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue30012:52
* dwatkins is mildly surprised to note gmail promoting godaddy13:02
popeysurely godaddy are paying for it like any other customer?13:02
MartijnVdSdwatkins: anyone can buy ads13:03
dwatkinsah yes13:03
solarcloud_3srcnAnyone wanna go all conspiracy theory ? .. Count me out ! http://www.indiegogo.com/Citizen-Spy-Not?c=home13:18
penguin42hmm I can't find where in ff the setting for 'open new tab as the one you just closed' - or whatever it's called; because it's on and annoying me13:26
MartijnVdSnot tab13:26
penguin42MartijnVdS: No, I mean it's doing it whenever I opena  tab and I don't want it to13:26
MartijnVdSdon't press shift ;)13:27
penguin42hehe possible13:27
Paladinehttp://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/27/idUSnPreXJWM1a+13c+PRN20130127  < more info on the Google case for those that are interested13:27
=== Hornet- is now known as Hornet
dwatkinsPaladine: wouldn't the decision to circumvent the Safari setting be likely to have been made in the US, and therefore not something a UK court can penalise Google for?13:30
Paladinethat is for UK courts to decide, the lawsuit is being issued against both Google's US and UK companies13:31
penguin42dwatkins: Does that matter? They do business here, they usually redirect you to google.co.uk etc13:31
dwatkinsah I see13:31
Paladinethe US Safe Web Act permits US courts to take action against non us companies, why shouldn't other countries do the same?13:32
Paladineit is a good question though and one that came up in brussels this week in a meeting with Julie Brills from the FTC, she stated she sees no reason legally why other jurisdictions can't take legal action against US companies since the US do the same13:33
ali1234the issue is always going to be enforcement13:34
ali1234i can't see google pulling out of the UK13:34
dwatkinsI can see them being fined for this, though.13:34
ali1234oh certainly13:35
Paladineno this isnt a fine, they already got away with it from the regulator13:35
Paladinethis is a lawsuit13:35
ali1234who doesn't want free money?13:35
Paladineso there is the potential for vast damages being issued against them13:35
dwatkinsso a fine, all be it a big one?13:35
Paladinedamages != fine13:35
Paladinefines are paid to the state13:35
Paladinedamages are paid to claimants13:35
dwatkinsoh I see, thanks13:36
Paladinethe maximum fine google could have faced was £500 000 from the information commissioner13:36
Paladinebut the maximum damages are unlimited and will likely exceed £100M is enough people join the action13:36
knightwiseoops  sorru   wrong window13:39
knightwisedanm ipad keyboard13:40
solarcloud_3srcnpopey: Just so we know .. when is the next episode likely to be of the Ubuntu-UK podcast ??14:07
jacobwthat's a popular question, the answer is usually that it'll be ready when it's ready14:10
solarcloud_3srcnNice and wharme in my house today :D15:15
dwatkinsIt's time for some nice loud Pendulum.15:15
Pendulumdwatkins: I'm quiet :P15:15
solarcloud_3srcnscanning for Pendulum on spotify ...15:16
dwatkinsI have Immersion playing on the speakers I just installed, may use them for some Doctor Who shortly.15:16
solarcloud_3srcnmmmphf ! don't thnk muych o ' Pendulum, anyhow ::: http://open.spotify.com/track/4rVRolQ2qr0TqGQSl000pM15:19
dwatkinseach to their own :) I also like all kinds of other music15:19
dwatkinsI don't have Spotify anymore, so I can't follow that link.15:19
solarcloud_3srcnit should just be a webpage ..15:19
dwatkinsah yes, it tells me which track it is, so I could probably find it in iTunes15:20
solarcloud_3srcnhands up who hates iTunes ??15:20
dwatkinsIt works, people can say what they like.15:21
* penguin42 flicks a CD case at solarcloud_3srcn15:21
solarcloud_3srcnI haven't used it in 5 years, Anyway the Real news is that I have a Pepperoni pizza coming out of the Oven in 7 mins ... :)15:22
dwatkinsI won't mention carbohydratyes, solarcloud_3srcn ;)15:22
dwatkinsyou avoid iTunes, I avoid carbs and sugar.15:22
* solarcloud_3srcn wonders if £1.50 piza is all it's cracked up to-be ?15:22
dwatkinsyou will probably get what you paid for.15:23
solarcloud_3srcnmm. 2 for £3.15:23
* solarcloud_3srcn broke his vow of 'fb coventry' today , by allowing someone to join his fb linux group .. damn facebook group .. no-one ever shares anything anyway !15:29
solarcloud_3srcnWhat's that beebing noise ?15:30
solarcloud_3srcnOh pizza .. :)15:30
dwatkinsor a model B with 32k...15:30
jacobwcrappy, i've been missing 'homage to catalonia' on Radio 4 for the last half hour15:31
dwatkinsis there a +1? ;)15:31
jacobwno, but there's the iPlayer for listening at one's convenience15:33
jacobwand, stashing forever with get_iplayer :p15:34
solarcloud_3srcnjacobw: OH POoo. I read it was about Eric Cantana15:34
jacobwit's not15:36
solarcloud_3srcnjacobw: yes, anything but ..15:38
penguin42http://www.ediblegeography.com/the-last-places/   the wine cellar under the ministry of defence15:47
solarcloud_3srcnmmm . don't see a boss , but the red wine's nice..15:48
popey(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻15:49
solarcloud_3srcnhieroglyph's popey ? Are you watching SWars again ?15:50
* penguin42 thinks popey has been reading unicodeemoticons15:51
jacobwmy emotions are on the astral plane >_>15:52
popeysolarcloud_3srcn: dunno soon15:52
popeysolarcloud_3srcn: we're off out for curry soon to decide when to do season 615:58
solarcloud_3srcnpopey, I just don't know how to donate, other than phone messages.16:04
solarcloud_3srcnBTW the pizza was a https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/Attachments%20Email%20Xchat/success.png16:04
penguin42someone put some more coal on the ubuntu archive servers please16:10
bigcalmPlaying Half-Life with a trackball is not as easy as one would hope16:21
solarcloud_3srcnbigcalm: What make/model is the trackball ??16:22
bigcalmLogitech M57016:22
solarcloud_3srcnlooks kinda LibreCAD to me .. but I haven't a clue as I've never used one.16:24
penguin42is that the one with the big marbely ball?16:24
solarcloud_3srcnlooks like it .. either blue or red ball...16:24
bigcalmpenguin42: no, that's the Logitech Marble16:24
bigcalm(which I also have)16:24
solarcloud_3srcnbigcalm: Have you captured any monsters yet ??16:29
brobostigonitv2, toy story, sid, :)16:33
neurotoy story on itv2? yuck16:46
neuroads :(16:46
brobostigonyes, advertising is not conductive to a smooth viewing experience.16:47
neuroand they'll trim the crap out of the credits too :(16:48
brobostigonout-takes if memory serves, at the end.16:49
neurojust credits16:50
popeyugh, hideous compression artifacts too16:50
neuroi'm a purist, i want to see the whole movie16:50
neuropopey: if you're watching on freeview, aye16:50
neuroprobably just as bad16:50
popeyoh, we have hd16:51
* popey looks16:51
neuroyeah, was gonna say :)16:51
solarcloud_3srcnmmp  neauro is a puritan .. do you wear a hat ??16:51
bigcalmDoes itv2 have an HD version?16:51
popeybah, cant find itv hd16:51
neurobigcalm: yup16:51
popeyoh its 216:51
* bigcalm scratches his noggin16:51
popeynot on virgin16:51
penguin42what are the bitrates like on HD, or are they just more pixels compressed harder?16:51
bigcalmThat'll be why I don't remember seeing an itv2 HD :)16:52
neuropenguin42: depends on the platform and the channel16:52
neuroin theory sky have more available bandwidth to just throw Mbps at the problem16:52
neurovirgin has some constraints, freeview has serious constraints16:53
neurothe freeview HD multiplex only has about 28Mbps to go around16:53
neuroshared amongst 4 24/7 channels16:53
mgdmHowever Freeview HD at least uses a modern codec16:53
neuropopey: yeah, sky only, i think16:53
neuroh.264 baby16:53
mgdmwhereas SD Freeview uses old MPEG2 crap16:53
neurowell, it wasn't crap when it was spec'd16:53
bigcalmHow about freesat?16:54
neurobigcalm: sky only16:54
mgdmneuro: yes, true16:54
bigcalmI see16:54
neurochannel 22516:54
neuroalthough it switches to 118 and moves SD to 225 once you're a sky subscriber16:54
neuroquite neat16:55
mgdmI suspect that DVB-S uses MPEG 2 in a transport stream the same as DVB-T16:55
neuroand DVB-C16:55
neurothe only difference on DVB-T was QAM16:55
neuro8k vs 64k16:56
neuroeventually they all went 64k so they could squeeze some more channels in16:56
neuroand improve tx robustness16:56
neurooops, rx robustness, i meant16:56
neuroit's a shame when we went itvdigital -> freeview they couldn't have respecced everything to DVB-T2 / h264, but there were too many itvdigital/ondigital boxes out there, so they stuck with regular DVB-T16:57
neuroso DVB-T2 is HD only16:58
neurofor now16:58
mgdmI suspect the new Local TV stuff will be DVB-T216:58
neuromost likely16:58
mgdmbut that's idle speculation16:58
neurojust a shame they're squandering the old analogue UHF frequencies16:59
neurocould easily have added three or four DVB-T2 multiplexes16:59
neuroi think one more may be on the cards, but again ... idle speculation16:59
mgdmNo money in that, when they could be sold to mobile networks ;-)16:59
neuroi know17:00
daftykinsonly trouble with standards is how many standards there are ;D17:00
neuroalthough LTE in the 800-900 band would be nice for building penetration17:00
solarcloud_3srcnAnd now for somm-it completely different :::::http://vimeo.com/57370112#17:00
neurodaftykins: the world can rarely agree on one thing17:00
neuroespecially when it comes to television with so many commercial interests involved17:00
neurolong gone are the days when the beeb could just create something at R&D and then magically turn it into a standard17:01
neurocf NICAM17:01
daftykinscertainly glad the Beeb aren't in charge of things17:01
neuroteletext and NICAM were pretty kick ass17:01
daftykinspast is past17:02
neuro728kbps 14-bit 32kHz stereo audio17:02
neuronow you get TV channels broadcasting video at almost that low a rate17:03
daftykinsit's alright because there's nothing worth seeing :)17:03
neurogrumpy guts :)17:03
daftykinsnah it's not being grumpy, i'm just saying TV is terrible today :)17:04
neuromost media is17:04
daftykinsit's ok though, the broadcast model shall soon be dead with any luck17:04
daftykinsthat's where the luck part comes in17:04
neurothere's still a desire for "as it happens" media consumption17:04
* mgdm would be upset if the broadcast model died soon17:05
brobostigonQI and HIGNFY rock. :)17:05
mgdmI'd have to go and find another job17:05
neuroand the reason ratings aren't as high these days is because of multichannel profligation, not due to receding viewing figures in total17:05
neuroit's easy to get 20m watching a programme when there's only 3 channels to pick from17:05
neurobut when there's potentially several hundred channels ...17:05
daftykinsi just have a bunch of stuff stashed locally that i watch at-will17:06
neuroah but what new stuff do you get?17:06
daftykinsi'm not paying the Beeb to churn out their... well their.17:06
neurois it all youtube indie style stuff?17:07
daftykinsjust this US spy parody series called 'Archer' right now17:07
daftykinsyoutube? not sure i follow17:07
neurowhich is broadcast on FX17:07
mgdmPresumably you bought that all legally on DVD or something similar, or a paid-for download?17:07
daftykinsi'm not sure how it being broadcast originally bears any relevance to what i'm saying?17:08
* neuro pays his licence fee and netflix dues, even though i rarely watch actual tv on my humax (and aerial is disconnected from tv, because samsung's freeview implementation circa 2008 was rubbish)17:08
neurodaftykins: you're predicting the end of the broadcast model17:08
neurobut Archer is brought to you via that same model17:08
daftykinsneuro: it would be if i lived in the US, i suppose17:09
daftykinsbut no i obtain it after the fact17:09
neuroarcher has been on Ch 517:09
neuroor at least one of their offshoots (5USA?)17:09
neuroand i'm saying archer possibly wouldn't exist but for that broadcast model17:10
daftykinsah, a point at last17:10
neurothat was my point 2 minutes ago :)17:10
neuroi obviously just didn't articulate it clearly enough :(17:10
daftykinsdo you not think it antiquated to have to be somewhere at a specific time to watch a program?17:10
neurobut at the same time, that idea isn't new17:11
daftykinsdid it need to be new?17:11
neurocf video cassette recorders17:11
neurobut i'm pretty sure there were "THE BROADCAST MODEL IS DOOOOOOMED" conversations after home video took off17:11
daftykinssure but there's a generational element isn't there17:12
neuroVHS, Betamax, DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, TiVo, PVRs, YouTube ... and the broadcast channels just keep on goin'17:12
daftykinsjust the other day at lunch with friends one was referring to his parents rushing off home to catch a program ¬_¬ sounded so sad17:12
penguin42neuro: And what's wrong with video 2000 ?17:12
neurosome people actually enjoy the social aspect of watching at point of broadcast17:12
popeyyeah, i do17:13
neuropenguin42: sorry!!! v2000 was frickin' awesome! double sided video tapes!!17:13
popeyi like to watch some programmes as they air17:13
daftykinshow-so? talking about it the day after?17:13
popeynot seeing spoilers for one17:13
neurodaftykins: i mean ... take that example you just gave us17:13
neurothose parents were going to enjoy watching that programme as it aired, together17:13
popeyand interacting17:13
popeye.g. Doctor Who for the first example, and Question Time for the second17:13
neuroand maybe they were really looking forward to seeing it, and didn't want to wait until watching it recorded later17:14
neurogood examples17:14
popeyeverything else I pvr17:14
neuroand the new media aspect can enhance shared live viewing17:14
popeyI never watch stuff live on commercial TV17:14
popeyalsways 15 mins or more offset so I can skip ads17:14
neurocf twitter, zeebox, etc17:14
daftykinsi keep trying to pause and rewind any live TV when i'm subjected to it :(17:14
neurodaftykins: with a decent PVR, you can17:14
daftykinsthat's not the point imo17:14
neurowhat is the point?17:15
popeywatching Question Time with twitter on the laptop is fun ☺17:15
daftykinsi think broadcast is outmoded for current generations17:16
popeydepending who is on it and the topic of the week17:16
popeyif by "current generation" you mean people under 25, I agre17:16
popeythey have zero attention span17:16
neurodaftykins: i disagree with outmoded17:16
daftykinssay i go to a friends and they say, oh hey have you seen series x?17:16
daftykins"oh no i haven't"17:17
neurootherwise for every live event ever, we'd just put the event in the middle of a field somewhere, film it and upload it on youtube17:17
neurowho needs spectators?17:17
daftykinsok let's play an episode from this lovely on-demand subscription service i have here17:17
brobostigonwas a good ep of question time the other day, ian hislop was on.17:17
neurodaftykins: replace "on-demand subscription service" with "this handy DVD", or "this convenient VHS bought in a shop" or "this fabulous recording I made from the TV"17:18
popeyooh.. you missed VideoCD!17:18
neuroor "this 8mm film I took from the TV"17:18
neuroand laserdisc17:18
popeylasterdisc was readonly tho17:18
popey(I was gonna mention that too) ;)17:19
neurowell i was talking about buying a tv series from a shop as well as home recording17:19
daftykinsneuro: not sufficient given release delays / decisions not to even produce17:19
popeyok ☺17:19
neurodaftykins: all that's changed is the speed of releases17:19
daftykinswith regard to what?17:19
neuroyour point17:19
neuroit took years for some US cinema releases to reach the UK17:20
neuroit would take months for home video releases to come after theatrical release17:20
daftykinsthis sounds like a tangent17:20
neuronot really17:20
neuroyou're talking about introducing some new content to a friend who hasn't seen it before17:20
neuroand taking the use case of something like netflix to make it17:20
daftykinsthat was the example scenario, the means was the service17:20
shaunothat's the one part of broadcast I really want to see die.  geolocking markets doesn't work anymore.17:21
neuroi'm just saying there have always been ways to introduce new content to people, they were just slower17:21
neuroor less convienent17:21
daftykinsshauno: indeed17:21
neuroagreed with that17:21
popeyWatching itv2 - Toy Story right now..17:21
popeyadverts came on17:21
daftykinsneuro: well that bears no relevance to what i'm thinking about17:21
popeySam said "can we skip it?"17:21
popey"Why not?"17:21
neurodaftykins: i have no idea what point you're trying to make then17:21
neuropopey: synchronicity :)17:21
daftykinspesky adverts17:21
* popey muted the telly17:22
popeytime for tea17:22
neurodaftykins: i'm trying to say that you're talking about replacements for broadcast media that in some way have always been there17:22
daftykinsneuro: that a nice online service you pay for access to would let you have the freedom to watch whatever whenever17:22
shaunoironically, the reason geolocking doesn't work is because broadcast does.  I want to see shows at the same time (±) that my friends do17:22
daftykinssure, but media is wasteful17:22
neuroor going down to HMV or Tower or Virgin Megastore and buying the video17:22
neuroor renting it17:22
daftykinsagain, outmoded17:22
neurono, just obsoleted17:23
neurothe actual *activity* hasn't really changed17:23
daftykinsnow you're arguing semantics17:23
neurojust the method of consumption and the convenience of access17:23
neurono, i'm really not17:23
penguin42hmm I guess with things like online film rentals are bunches of people all renting the same thing at the same time?17:23
daftykinsi'm sorry but i find this incredibly tedious, so i'm going to stop now17:23
neurothe only real danger i can see to "broadcast" media is indie content makers getting more eyes onto their content via youtube, etc17:23
neurothat's the real disruptor17:23
daftykinswe're not on the same page and i don't feel i have the will in me to be bothered making it so17:23
neuronot so much that the consumption method is different, but that the creation method has less of a barrier to entry17:24
neurook, fair enough17:24
daftykinsyou are free to enjoy watching broadcast and i shall resume this paused file i have here as and when i wish :>17:25
neuroi thought you didn't have the will to be bothered17:25
daftykinsno need to push it17:25
neuromy point was that the paused file you're watching would not exist but for the broadcast model17:25
popeyreasons why I hate my kids watching adverts...17:26
neurothey want stuff?17:26
popeyi just told them I don't like them singing advert jingles and stuff17:26
neurouh oh17:26
popey(sophie sang "funky pidgeon dot com")17:26
daftykinspopey: XD17:26
popeythen sam said "For embarrasing moments there huggies, sponsors of you've been framed"17:27
daftykinsneuro: let it go :)17:27
popeywhich made me wtf even more17:27
neurodaftykins: what?17:27
daftykinsi'm tempted to up a vid to YBF to try and get the money17:27
neurowhy did you say let it go?17:28
neuroi was talking to popey17:28
popeyi have a vid of wifey on holiday in the sea, big wave comes in and her boobs pop out17:28
popeykids keep asking me to send it in to YBF17:28
daftykinsmay make more money elsewhere.17:29
neuropopey: just give in and let them sing jingles, as i believe everything in demolition man will one day come true17:30
neuroexcept for the three seashells, as I don't think that was fully explained to my satisfaction17:30
daftykinsi better learn the taco bell menu17:30
neuroand stop eating salt, as it's bad for you and therefore is illegal17:31
neuroWILL BE, WILL BE illegal17:31
shaunoyet taco bell took over the world.  not exactly healthfood17:31
daftykinstell you what they should outlaw before that17:31
daftykinspeople that put things on food before trying it first17:32
neuroOOOH scum17:32
daftykinsinorite, unacceptable!17:32
solarcloud_3srcnpepperoni !17:32
neuroand people who say they don't like stuff without trying it17:32
daftykinsneuro: the animals D:17:32
neurothey need a slap17:32
shauno(obiligatory horse burger joke here)17:32
neurohaha, it's funny because i'm scottish, and i'd say "no" as "nay"17:33
neurohmm, chrome and its 50-odd tabs wants me to restart it to do an update17:34
solarcloud_3srcnover here yes is "tay" in manx .. sounds similar..17:34
neuroi think chrome and I will have to have words17:34
neuroacht, sod it, the word is: command-q17:35
daftykinsin FF at least file -> exit keeps all the tabs17:35
neuroit does/can in chrome too17:35
neuroi just hate reloading all those tabs17:35
daftykinsi have to do that because a client of mine keeps 3+ windows with 20+ tabs each constantly =|17:35
neuroand why chrome always wants to use my GTX 640M instead of the intel lightweight GPU is beyond me17:36
neuroi think it's a flash thing17:36
popeyso now I tell the kids it's tea time...17:36
penguin42daftykins: ?!17:36
popey"Can you pause the telly!"17:36
neurowell, can't you?17:36
popeyi put stuff on food before trying it17:36
popeye.g. mustard or horseraddish on beef17:36
popeymint sauce on lamb17:36
daftykinspenguin42: yeah :( technology abuse my non-understanders17:37
neurowell, i think daftykins meant "trying it for the first time" (although i may be wrong?)17:37
penguin42daftykins: hmm, you can always bookmark the set of tabs17:37
neurosurely by now you know what beef and lamb tastes like17:37
popeyi used to work with someone who was unable to have two items of food in her mouth at once17:37
popeyhad to eat meat then eat some veg17:38
daftykinsnah i meant if you go to a restaurant, so you don't know their food, why put stuff on before sampling it without 0o17:38
popeynever put meat and veg on the fork17:38
popeyit was hilarious to watch17:38
daftykinspopey: dear god, my old man's the opposite - he has to have one piece of every food item on the plate per forkload17:38
daftykinsthat however, is painful to watch17:38
daftykinshe takes 3x longer than anyone else to eat17:38
neurothat sounds backwards17:39
neurosurely having bits of all the food on the plate, he'd be finished faster than someone putting one or two bits on the fork17:39
popeyother people are odd17:39
popeyall of them17:39
neuroyou're odd17:40
neuroi'm not17:40
neurothis talk about food is making me hungry though17:40
neuroand i had a pot noodle for lunch, and that's not exactly food17:40
* popey has left-overs from roast dinner17:40
daftykinsi don't like roasts and yet it's what's tonight :(17:41
penguin42oh, send them over here then17:41
daftykinsthat reminds me, i was going to look up a film i never saw17:47
daftykinserr, that Bruce Willis and kid that sees ghosts one17:49
penguin42Sixth sense?17:49
daftykinsthat's the one ja17:50
daftykinsthough i've already had it ruined over the years naturally =/17:50
penguin42good film17:50
solarcloud_3srcnpenguin42: My best film of all time .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i9u9Ps7zh418:18
daftykinspeople should be shot for uploading videos at the wrong aspect ratio18:21
mgdmthat's slightly extreme18:25
daftykinsif taken literally, yeah18:26
penguin42solarcloud_3srcn: Hmm, those are 'ok'18:26
* penguin42 prefers High planes drifter18:26
popeySunday afternoon is: Children brushing my hair and putting it in a pony tail.18:27
solarcloud_3srcnApt request : can popey have a feather in his hair please, as a feature ?18:29
daftykinspopey: you have long hair? 0o18:31
* solarcloud_3srcn Maps the t'internet .. ::: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/Attachments%20Email%20Xchat/AK38c.jpg18:37
daftykinsi wonder what a sea of downoads is18:39
solarcloud_3srcnnot an aacount-an-see anyway !! haha..18:39
penguin42daftykins: /var/cache/apt/archives?18:42
daftykinspenguin42: i was just being a spelling pedant18:43
daftykinsalso i frequently run a good clean ^_^18:44
daftykinsand purge my older kernels18:44
penguin42solarcloud_3srcn: I'm sure the cats must occupy a larger area of the internet18:45
solarcloud_3srcnpenguin, true, but is 'occupy'still going, in your part of the woods ?18:55
solarcloud_3srcntake that as a no19:02
penguin42solarcloud_3srcn: haha well I didn't mean that occupy; I think in this part of the woods they got as far as about 3 tents on a piece of grass near the town hall for about a week19:02
penguin42a year or so ago19:02
solarcloud_3srcnThey still meet on a mumble server believe it or not !19:03
penguin42has mumble got any better? It used to be almost but not entirely possible to get the audio to work reliably19:04
solarcloud_3srcneveryone gets frustrated with mumble .. needs crowdfunding ... !!19:05
penguin42solarcloud_3srcn: I guess they keep trying to have meetings to discuss it but ....19:06
solarcloud_3srcncould be forked easy enough, if i recall.19:07
alex__Fine, don't ask me then20:03
meetWhich is a good light weight distro using ubuntu? I plan to use it from a live usb and use it in my college to do practical work and classes20:23
AlanBellI would just use Ubuntu20:24
daftykinsmeet: xubuntu is lighter20:25
ali1234"portable" ubuntu20:26
meetali1234 is there such thing?20:27
ali1234can you install nvidia driver and amd driver onto a live usb, and then have it still work correctly?20:27
ali1234meet: yes, use the live usb creator20:27
AlanBellyes with the persistent partition thing20:27
ali1234but i would expect issues now that ubuntu requires a working 3d driver20:27
ali1234since getting that to work is highly machine dependent20:27
ali1234i would go with a distro that doesn't have this requirement20:27
ali1234and nobody better even think of saying llvmpipe is a workable replacement for 3d acceleration, because it isn't20:28
AlanBellnot entirely sure that you can install the nvidia drivers then go use an ATI machine and install drivers for that and then flip about between all kinds of machines and have it just work20:29
AlanBellbut maybe you can20:29
meetDaftykins are these the lightest distros out there? I also will not need thunderbird and all that bloat20:29
daftykinsmeet: well with a persistent install, you can just remove packages...20:29
ali1234the lightest distro are also hard to use20:29
ali1234removing packages that you don;t use won't make the system run faster20:29
daftykinsmeet: are you sure you can even boot your own OS in a College? most machines are locked down in such places20:29
solarcloud_3srcnAlanBell: How was London ??20:30
solarcloud_3srcnok, fair enough.20:30
meetDaftykins ya I checked the other day. I was able to boot from a USB20:30
solarcloud_3srcnmeet: You could try, Lubuntu , I do, and it's fine.20:32
meetAli1234 so is there any thing which is ubuntu based and has unneeded softwares removed like the music player and all20:32
daftykinsmeet: you might get told off for that. even if it works, wouldn't there be a web proxy to block net access? or is it not really a well provisioned college?20:32
ali1234meet: why worry.just having stuff on  usb disk isn't going to slow anything down20:33
ali1234the killer is unity20:33
solarcloud_3srcnyes, Unity is not in Lubuntu.20:33
meetDaftykins you may say that ;-)20:33
MartijnVdSWhich pay-as-you-go SIM should I get? Or does anyone know a website where I can compare deals?20:34
daftykinsmeet: just be sure not to mount the local disks, that may make them angry :>20:34
solarcloud_3srcnMartijnVdS: For the UK ?20:34
meetYa. Probably won't need them at all20:35
daftykinswhen i was teaching at a College i still knew the BIOS passwords so i booted liveUSBs to show students stuff, but one time it caused the system to fsck itself20:35
MartijnVdSsolarcloud_3srcn: I'll be going there soon.. and I want a SIM for my mifi :)20:35
daftykinswhich was odd 'cause i didn't even mount them i don't think 0o20:35
solarcloud_3srcndunno , I'm in an enclave called the Isle of Man. soz.20:35
brobostigonMartijnVdS: for data, three are the best value, and have the best data i have ever had.20:35
MartijnVdSsolarcloud_3srcn: the more data the better :)20:35
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: even in remote places (I'll be going to Land's End)20:35
brobostigonMartijnVdS: also, three payg, for £15 do no fup unlimited data,20:36
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: that does sound good20:36
brobostigonMartijnVdS: lands end, i dont know, not been.20:36
solarcloud_3srcnMartijnVdS: Say hello to the Lizard, for me ^_^20:36
ali1234do three still do that unlimited free skype to skype calls with other three users?20:36
brobostigonno idea, ali123420:37
meetDaftykins - haha! Ok then I will opt for ubuntu with an l. Btw will I able to install jdk and everythng else normaly?20:37
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: I'll post photos ;)20:37
MartijnVdSbrobostigon: I'll be going in May20:37
brobostigonMartijnVdS: :)20:37
daftykinsmeet: again, hit up pendrivelinux.com and learn about persistent installs.20:37
meetok. I was planning to use unetbootin which I felt was easy20:38
solarcloud_3srcnStrong winds forecast for lower Wales tonite, BTW.20:38
ali1234use live image creator tool in ubuntu20:38
ali1234unetbootin does not set up a proper persistent portable install20:39
MartijnVdSneither does it set up EFI properly20:39
solarcloud_3srcnAlanBell: What was the meeting you are doing in the #meeting channel ?20:42
AlanBellIRC Council20:42
solarcloud_3srcnah, elders only, ...20:42
* solarcloud_3srcn is merely a padawan ;)20:42
meetAli1234 is it ubuntu only?20:43
solarcloud_3srcnmeet not that I recall.20:43
AlanBellstartup disk creator is what it is called20:44
meetOk... Will search for that.  thanks everyone :-)20:44
solarcloud_3srcnAlanBell: Have got any response from your shopping app. yet ? i.e. can they give feedback on the gnome page ?20:45
AlanBellthere are some comments here https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/564/amazon-shopping/20:46
AlanBellit hasn't really generated any revenue at all, which is interesting20:46
AlanBellabout 15 clicks or something20:46
directhexbanshee used to contribute thousands to gnome, but since people started dumping banshee, those numbers are rather sad now20:48
AlanBelldunno if I am reading it right, might be 1262 views of detail pages, 15 of them clicked on other stuff20:48
AlanBellthere was a comment from the reviewer saying that I might like to talk to the foundation about getting the shopping thing in by default20:49
AlanBellbut as it generates no money at the moment it is rather an academic point20:49
solarcloud_3srcnAlanBell: that would be good, Does it take up much server time, your side or not /20:50
AlanBellno, hardly any20:50
solarcloud_3srcnwell at least you've opened it up, for everyone .. kudos to AlanBell !!20:51
directhexis semi-integrated shopping right in the OS something people want? i can't say i've used it in unity either20:53
AlanBellprobably not20:54
AlanBellwould be interesting to know if there is any revenue from the unity shopping lens, I expect there is a bit20:55
directhexI'm not saying "YOU SUCK STOP HACKING" i just wanbt to better understand the usage patterns20:55
AlanBellI actually quite like it as a concept personally20:56
ali1234i don't want integrated anything :/20:56
AlanBelland I think you should always nominate an affiliate code when shopping on Amazon as a moral principal20:56
AlanBellotherwise you are just giving the commission to Amazon on top of their profit margin20:56
ali1234because capitalism is the ultimate moral philosophy, right?20:57
AlanBellconsumerism ftw20:57
AlanBellbut if you do shop on Amazon you get to give a 5% kickback to any good cause of your choosing that has an affiliate ID20:59
ali1234which is basically none, as we found20:59
daftykinshrmm does OS X read and write on NTFS yet, anyone know?20:59
AlanBelland if Jeff Bezos is your chosen good cause, then carry on shopping from a browser :)20:59
ali1234if everyone uses affiliate codes they'll just put the prices up 5%21:00
ali1234you can't win this game21:00
ali1234the only way is to not play21:00
AlanBellmy kids school has an affiliate code, lots of small places do21:01
ali1234a large number of the shops on amazon have their own websites too. what you should really do is search amazon, then google for their site and buy there21:01
ali1234if you have some problem with giving bezos money that is21:01
AlanBellyes, that is good, if they do the shipping21:01
AlanBelllots of places have given up on logistics and just put all their stuff in an Amazon warehouse and let Amazon deal with it21:02
daftykins'fulfilled by Amazon'21:02
daftykinsdefinitely tougher to find stuff *actually* sold by them lately i find21:02
daftykinsunless there's a trick to it i don't know of21:03
ali1234there is. select "super saver delivery" only21:03
ali1234the small shops may do free delivery but it's not the same so they get filtered21:03
daftykinsthat's one step later21:03
daftykinsis it not?21:03
ali1234but i feel you might be asking for a "do what i want" button21:03
daftykinsnot really.21:04
daftykinsbtw that sounds very arrogant21:05
ali1234well, complaining about 1 extra click to buy something sounds like first world problems21:06
ali1234bug 99492121:08
lubotu3bug 994921 in apport (Ubuntu Quantal) "'ubuntu-bug /var/crash/app.crash' (and even more so, 'apport-cli -c /var/crash/app.crash') should still allow manual bug filing in stable releases" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/99492121:08
daftykinswasn't really a complaint, perhaps you just read my statement with the attitude you carry around?21:08
czajkowskidaftykins: hows things21:13
daftykinsnot bad thanks! getting closer to my house buying completion on the 5th :) and you?21:14
czajkowskigood thanks, busy but looking for to FOSDEM next weekend21:14
* solarcloud_3srcn finishes his 3 for a pound cadbury's creme egg and wonder's why Uncle Sam owns them now ...21:16
daftykinsmmm creme eggs21:18
solarcloud_3srcnthey are nice. but they are /were mine, and not Terry's !21:18
solarcloud_3srcnBrace yourself the 'Easter Egg's2 posts are coming ...21:19
solarcloud_3srcn                                                                                                                                                       .21:21
brobostigonis there a html frontend for get-iplayer? something that will alow my mum to use get-iplayer without her having to learn the terminal commands.22:11
ali1234yeah. it's at bbc.co.uk/iplayer22:13
ali1234i'm serious btw. they have download links for "portable media devices" which is what get-iplayer fetches22:15
ali1234right under the actual embedded video22:15
brobostigoninteresting, thank you directhex22:17
ali1234actually those website downloads are wmv nonsense22:19
brobostigonthey are flv and then converted into mp4 with ffmpeg, as popey pointed out a few days ago.22:20
ali1234get-iplayer is22:21
ali1234the iplayer website serves up wmv files22:21
ali1234you have to play it in windows media player to obtain a license and then transfer the license to your player along with the file22:21
=== Lcawte is now known as Lcawte|Away

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