[13:14] <justmeh> orly
[13:15] <ikonia> justmeh: ? whats up
[13:15] <justmeh> review #ubuntu plz
[13:16] <ikonia> justmeh: can you give me a minute,
[13:16] <justmeh> sure
[13:17] <ikonia> justmeh: from what I read back (please correct me if wrong)
[13:17] <justmeh> other than being kinda mean to AP when was interrupting, was 100% correct. pinning is supported. its an official method. backports dont always have what you need. also sometimes multiple repos have the same package versions - need to take extra steps for preferences. instead of a good intelligent discussion on what pinning is and what its good for, and what its NOT good for (just as important), you got another lil spat.
[13:18] <ikonia> the issue I can see is offering "blind" solutions, that while will work, may not serve the user best
[13:18] <ikonia> I don't have an issue with pinning
[13:18] <justmeh> that could only be caused by not hearing the whole answer ikonia which is why i got so angry at actionparsnip
[13:18] <ikonia> not really
[13:18] <ikonia> I understand what you are saying
[13:19] <justmeh> 'only be caused' was a bad choice of words..
[13:19] <ikonia> but if a user comes in and says "I want to update libc from the version supplied in ubuntu version X to version X+1" - thats not really a "pinning" issue
[13:19] <justmeh> actually
[13:19] <justmeh> that's a different user i thought
[13:19] <ikonia> that's a bad idea, no ammount of pinning will be acceptable
[13:19] <justmeh> let me check logs
[13:19] <ikonia> that's the only user I see, hence why please correct me if I'm wrong
[13:19] <justmeh> started with a b
[13:20] <ikonia> the bottom line of mixing repo packages, is unacceptable
[13:20] <ikonia> pinning versions from within the distros' same version repo, great, a really useful tool
[13:20] <ikonia> thinks just appear to have got a little heated and you calling people names doesn't help
[13:21] <justmeh> Jan 29 04:43:00 <bharath>	how to add quantal repo to 12.04? for libnl update version
[13:21] <justmeh> unacceptable is kinda strong ikonia
[13:22] <justmeh> libnl: http://www.infradead.org/~tgr/libnl/
[13:23] <ikonia> so - that is unacceptable
[13:23] <ikonia> adding a quantel repo to 12.04 = unacceptable
[13:23] <ikonia> it's not something we suggest in #ubuntu to users due to the problems it can and most probably will cause
[13:23] <justmeh> under _any_ scenario?
[13:24] <ikonia> yes
[13:24] <ikonia> the repos are locked to versions for a reason
[13:24] <justmeh> oh quite agreed
[13:24] <ikonia> you (yourself) can of course do this, if you feel confident, but recommending it blindly to users, isn't helpful
[13:25] <justmeh> can we review the actual advice given?
[13:25] <ikonia> I've just scanned through it in the #ubuntu channel
[13:25] <ikonia> is there something specific ?
[13:25] <justmeh> yeah let me grep
[13:25] <ikonia> please don't paste a load of lines in the channel
[13:25] <ikonia> please just summerise what you want to say
[13:27] <justmeh> Jan 29 04:49:57 <justmeh>	finally, when you actually pull the package in this way it may bring in other stuff. which is where the acutal danger is. it often breaks stuff
[13:27] <justmeh> Jan 29 04:50:21 <justmeh>	so anyway it might be easier to compile from source if you really need that one package
[13:27] <justmeh> ^--- i believe i had already covered this
[13:27] <ikonia> not really
[13:27] <justmeh> and would have wrapped up by going back to the compiling
[13:27] <ikonia> as youv'e just told him to compile from source
[13:27] <justmeh> its a placeholder
[13:27] <ikonia> which offers just as much/more danager unlesss you have a solid grasp of what you are doing
[13:28] <ikonia> justmeh: the bottom line is just think about the user you are talking to
[13:28] <justmeh> i don't disagree there either - i lean towards more
[13:28] <justmeh> yes ikonia exactly.
[13:28] <ikonia> I a user is asking how to put on a plaster, telling them how to perform brain surgery isn't going to end well
[13:28] <ikonia> which is en essense what you're doing
[13:28] <justmeh> so without actually explaining the dangers - they will do it the first good google search they try
[13:29] <justmeh> Jan 29 04:57:03 <justmeh>	i have version xyz of abc in my system. my system is setup as follows (whatever). i want to upgrade abc to version def, because i want to _something_
[13:29] <justmeh> ^--- this here gives some info about what i need to better help this person in a SAFE manner
[13:30] <ikonia> justmeh: yes, you are explaining how to ask the question
[13:30] <justmeh> but somehow no one bothers to follow up on that huh?
[13:30] <ikonia> that's not really doing anything "safe"
[13:30] <justmeh> again
[13:30] <justmeh> incomplete
[13:30] <ikonia> incomplete ?
[13:30] <ikonia> what
[13:30] <justmeh> my explanation to the person
[13:30] <ikonia> (apologies but you're not really making sense)
[13:30] <justmeh> like i said after pinning i would have come back to compiling
[13:31] <ikonia> that last line is just you advising him how to ask a question clearly, which is great, but has no relevence to the other discussion
[13:31] <justmeh> but IdleOne had already warned me
[13:31] <ikonia> justmeh: yes, and like I've said pining in his example is unacceptable, compiling in his example would have been more dangerous
[13:31] <justmeh> so instead the discussion was left in an even more dangerous state
[13:31] <ikonia> no it wasn't
[13:31] <ikonia> he was told it's not a wise move
[13:31] <justmeh> by me
[13:31] <ikonia> no, I told him not to
[13:32] <justmeh> but there's another issue here
[13:32] <ikonia> I also asked him to verify if lib-c6 was actually the libc reference I suspected it wasn't
[13:32] <ikonia> he didn't respond,
[13:32] <ikonia> so I think he "got it" that it wasn't a wise move
[13:34] <ikonia> justmeh: ok, so are we done ? are you ok with what I've explained to you ?
[13:35] <justmeh> you were speaking with ayman by my read
[13:35] <justmeh> i was speaking with bharath
[13:35] <justmeh> and i seem to be the only person who made an effort to answer the question
[13:35] <ikonia> ok, but the concept is still the same
[13:35] <ikonia> the individual person doesn't matter, the concept of how you advise them is
[13:35] <justmeh> the fact that you think pinning would have been less dangerous than compiling means you guys should have been on that other doods arse
[13:36] <justmeh> yes  quite
[13:36] <ikonia> please tone it down
[13:36] <justmeh> Jan 29 04:54:53 <justmeh>	because, since ubuntu came from debian, and pinning is supported, and its there in ubuntu, and its supported.. its just not wise or recommended most of the time.
[13:36] <ikonia> forget "other people"
[13:36] <ikonia> I'm talking to you
[13:36] <justmeh> ^--
[13:36] <justmeh> I just don't see an issue.
[13:37] <justmeh> i cant promise to not talk about something that's built in the OS
[13:37] <ikonia> I don't think that one line is an issue
[13:37] <ikonia> it's the multiple discussions that came after that
[13:37] <ikonia> no-one is asking you not to talk about things that are part of the OS
[13:37] <ikonia> just apply common sense into what you suggest to people, that's all
[13:37] <justmeh> I was trying to come around to the OPS point
[13:37] <justmeh> but couldnt ikonia - i found documentation on it
[13:38] <justmeh> yes ikonia i agree. that's why i give a full explanation. its a lesson not a one sentance answer
[13:38] <justmeh> technically one can install, compile and emerge gentoo in like 3 commands. its not recommended, or wise though
[13:38] <ikonia> I'm not interested in gentoo
[13:38] <justmeh> it is supported.
[13:38] <ikonia> or compiling
[13:38] <ikonia> I'm interested in you providing sensible thought out help to users asking for it
[13:38] <ikonia> if something is not wise to do - don't suggest it
[13:39] <ikonia> there is no point
[13:39] <justmeh> ikonia, i do support for a living
[13:39] <ikonia> judge the person / question being asked
[13:39] <ikonia> apply common sense/thought
[13:39] <justmeh> yes exactly
[13:39] <ikonia> justmeh: so ?
[13:39] <ikonia> your job has no relevence
[13:39] <justmeh> this person knows very little
[13:39] <justmeh> needed a lesson in this badly
[13:39] <ikonia> right, so mentioning pinning and compiling is pointless/bad
[13:39] <ikonia> no - they don't need a lesson
[13:39] <ikonia> they need the information to resolve their problem
[13:39] <ikonia> and a lesson in pinning and compiling isn't it
[13:39] <justmeh> this must be our fundimental disconnect then
[13:40] <justmeh> * fundamental
[13:40] <ikonia> great,
[13:40] <ikonia> I see no harm in expanding on topics to users if needed, so please don't think that
[13:40] <justmeh> how early in the game did you get here? #ubuntu i mean
[13:40] <justmeh> 5.04?
[13:40] <ikonia> that has no relevence to this conversation
[13:41] <justmeh> it relates to the disconnect
[13:41] <justmeh> directly.
[13:41] <ikonia> justmeh: if you need to expand to give solid help, please do so, but just pointing users at information that won't really help them and opens the doors to more issus/risk, well, then we go back to applying common sense
[13:41] <ikonia> that's all I'm asking for, is a little thought into the user you are helping,
[13:41] <justmeh> look i could have come in and blown smoke
[13:41] <ikonia> you tried that in ##linux
[13:41] <justmeh> i could have just pulled up one of the irssi's from another box
[13:41] <ikonia> it didn't end well
[13:41] <ikonia> justmeh: do that if you want
[13:41] <justmeh> ahahaha
[13:41] <ikonia> I don't really care
[13:41] <justmeh> ##linux? ended fine
[13:42] <ikonia> as long as I don't see a problem in #ubuntu, it's of no concern to me
[13:42] <justmeh> i bitched about ppl and then i got bitched about. no worries.
[13:42] <justmeh> scuse the language but its accurate
[13:42] <ikonia> no you got told to shut up
[13:42] <ikonia> you got the operators called on you
[13:42] <justmeh> anyway i could have blown smoke. but instead i figured perhaps i'd try to explain
[13:42] <justmeh> lol
[13:42] <ikonia> and you tried to be smart to people
[13:42] <ikonia> it didn't end well
[13:42] <ikonia> and it's why I'm trying to be crystal clear to you
[13:42] <ikonia> because I don't want that to happen in #ubuntu
[13:43] <justmeh> [05:41:40] <ikonia> that's all I'm asking for, is a little thought into the user you are helping,
[13:43] <justmeh> ^--- my point is this was the result of thouht
[13:43] <justmeh> *thought
[13:43] <ikonia> perfect, that's all I want
[13:43] <justmeh> pinning is important, and they were all set to find it on a google search if they did one
[13:44] <ikonia> then they can ask question on it
[13:44] <justmeh> it's been recommended before, multimedia was a clear case of this
[13:44] <ikonia> it's not recommended
[13:44] <justmeh> usually what happens is someone makes a backport to stop the crazyness or a ppa
[13:44] <ikonia> and when it is recommended it's a tried and tested solution
[13:44] <justmeh> but until this has happened the options are pinning, or compiling
[13:44] <ikonia> which are not accetpable for that user
[13:44] <justmeh> or technically, adding a repo, upgrading a package, watching everything die, and remove the repo so nothing can be updated
[13:45] <ikonia> ok, I'm getting tired of this now, we are just going around in a loop
[13:45] <justmeh> but as we both agreed the user never stated the _need_
[13:45] <ikonia> I'll ask you one more time, focus on helping the user, their issue, their problem, not a lesson in linux
[13:45] <ikonia> if you're comfortable with that, that's great
[13:45] <justmeh> i can only do both
[13:45] <ikonia> then you will not re-gain access to #ubuntu at this time
[13:45] <justmeh> there is no such thing as an answer without a lesson
[13:45] <ikonia> ok, then I think we are done here
[13:45] <justmeh> i'm already there lol
[13:45] <justmeh> ok
[13:46] <ikonia> if you want to join #ubuntu-ops at any time to get the ban removed, please do so
[13:46] <justmeh> do your deeds.
[13:46] <ikonia> in the mean time, please part this channel
[13:46] <ikonia> sorry ? pardon ?
[13:47] <justmeh> there's no such thing as an answer without a lesson
[13:47] <ikonia> you've said that
[13:47] <ikonia> I've explained
[13:47] <justmeh> yes
[13:47] <ikonia> please /part the channel
[13:47] <ikonia> you are welcome back to #ubuntu-ops at any time if you can resolve the issue I've asked of you
[13:47] <justmeh> i cannot pardon your offense of forgetting this
[13:48] <justmeh> your urge to give a quick answer means the end user often gets the wrong information. not enough framework is layed for them to understand WHY choices must be made
[13:48] <ikonia> I'm sorry, I don't understand
[13:48] <ikonia> you're not making any sense
[13:48] <ikonia> please /part the channel now, and again, feel free to rejoin if you want to discusss it more
[13:48] <justmeh> what do you not understand?
[13:49] <ikonia> when you just say random things like "i cannot pardon your offense of forgetting this"
[13:49] <ikonia> but either way, I'm done
[13:49] <ikonia> so I'll ask a final time, please /part the channel now
[13:49] <justmeh> [05:46:36] <ikonia> sorry ? pardon ?
[13:49] <justmeh> i assume you were speaking bad spanish, i took it in its original sense
[13:50] <ikonia> I'm speaking English
[13:50] <justmeh> as am i
[13:50] <ikonia> ok, well as I said I wasn't following your sentences when you say random phrases as detailed above
[13:50] <ikonia> but it doesn't matter now. So I think we are done now
[13:50] <justmeh> lol
[13:50] <justmeh> so lets review one last time
[13:50] <justmeh> in order to be in #ubuntu one needs to do what in your mind?
[13:51] <ikonia> I don't want to review it again
[13:51] <ikonia> I feel you are trying to waste my time, and I have other things to do
[13:51] <ikonia> you're welcome to rejoin #ubuntu-ops at a later date to review it
[13:51] <justmeh> lets review.
[13:51] <ikonia> please don't be smart
[13:51] <ikonia> it's a poor attitude.
[13:51] <justmeh> by what standard.
[21:45] <Castial> hey I live on campus and it says my I am banned from #Ubuntu
[21:46] <Castial> it would be nice to have access to this channel
[21:47] <Pici> Castial: hi
[21:47] <Pici> Let me take a look
[21:48] <Castial> thanks man
[21:48] <Castial> appreciate it
[21:49] <Pici> Hm.. Looks like there was an issue with another user at that IP back in October
[21:49] <Pici> I think its safe to assume that they've probably moved on from that address.
[21:49] <Castial> just this IP or the entire IP block?
[21:49] <Pici> That IP
[21:49] <Castial> because the college gives us all static IP addresses internally and uses like a block of say 10 for the outbound addresses
[21:50] <Castial> its a pain to set up lol
[21:50] <Pici> Well, maybe they graduated (hopefully), looks like they first popped up on our radar back in 2010
[21:50] <Pici> Anyway, you're unbanned now.
[21:51] <Castial> thank you very much I appreciate your time and I can understand how other college kids are