rick_h_morning and all that jazz12:05
brouschSick kid again today12:20
snap-lbrousch: Hope he feels better soon.12:51
snap-lSick kid === no fun12:51
* rick_h_ feels sick...just added MongoDB to vim dict 12:52
snap-lrick_h_: all are welcome.12:53
rick_h_grrrr...stupid people that can't set up a installable python package correctly...13:04
snap-lAre we having fun yet?14:43
rick_h_not really14:43
rick_h_is it friday yet14:44
snap-lNot yet.14:44
snap-lThough we're gettig closer.14:46
jrwrenI am.14:52
jrwrenI think I know btter than pylint :p14:52
rick_h_just got through linting through a stupid library I had to fork because it's .tar.gz was uninstallable14:52
rick_h_what is pylint telling you? The only one I think is the multiple imports around a try/except14:53
jrwrenpylint rule C0103 is stupid IMO. attr names (should match [a-z_][a-z0-9_]{2,30}$)14:54
jrwrenfeels wrong.14:54
jrwren{2,} is more like it14:54
rick_h_oh man, what attr name are you using?14:54
jrwrenand even that I don't like14:55
rick_h_ends with _? and from_values I find is normally just wasted verbage :/14:55
jrwrenI'd rather it be update_traffic_trends_from_MORE_DESCRIPTION_values14:55
rick_h_update_traffic_trends(values=None, another_source=None): dispatch from here14:56
rick_h_imo :)14:56
jrwrenyeah, i considered that.14:56
jrwrenthen I also consider someone with a shite editor who doesn't see the doc or even args.14:56
jrwrenI miss types.14:56
jrwrentrailing _ is throw back from C. I should stop that habbit.14:57
jrwreni guess it is not pythonic14:57
rick_h_if they miss that then shove it. If they can't see the code or the docs then fubar14:57
rick_h_what is it supposed to mean? Can't recall ever seeing that14:57
rick_h_the underscaore that is14:57
jrwrensignifies private, like in python14:57
rick_h_that's what the _ is for14:57
jrwrenbut in C, all functions starting with _ are reserved14:57
rick_h_to start with14:57
jrwrencan't do that in C14:57
jrwrenmost compilers accept it, but it is technically out of spec.14:58
rick_h_yea, the _update_traffic_trends already means private. And if it's private why bothering about docs/editors?14:58
jrwrenthat is the OTHER thing.14:58
jrwrenC0111 pylint wants docstring on private14:58
jrwrenI'm like WTF14:58
jrwrenthe bother is to convey intent to the next maintainer14:59
rick_h_sure, why not? You wrote it, you should doc it when you come back to your code.14:59
jrwrenthis is NOT simple code at all, it gets head twisting14:59
rick_h_all the more reason for docstrings14:59
jrwrenoh, so you are syaing yes to docstrings on the private14:59
jrwrencool. I usually do anyway :)14:59
rick_h_ok cool14:59
rick_h_people don't doc their code enough for my tastes. Drives me nuts15:00
rick_h_got handed this to review the other day and drove me nuts that there's not a single comment about expected structure of the data, why it's formatted in the way it is, etc http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~juju-jitsu/charmworld/trunk/view/head:/charmworld/jobs/cstat.py15:01
rick_h_wanted to just return 'will-no-review-no-docs'15:01
jrwrenand THAT is another reason I like static types.15:27
jrwrenand I don't just mean static langs, but static types.15:27
jrwrenif you are using all dicts for structure in a static lang, its no different than a dynamic lang for opaque data structure15:28
jrwrenbut when you define your own type heirarchy and use hte type system, its oh so discoverable15:28
rick_h_right, well this is a mess because of mongodb everything's a dict pita15:30
rick_h_we could implement our own model/type later on top but our TA has shot that down as unnecessary overhead :(15:30
jrwrenyour TA is a fool.15:31
rick_h_hah! we can drink to that15:31
jrwrenyou should gift him a copy of Domain Driven Development and expense i.15:31
rick_h_many gifts I could grant...some of them with spinny little sharp ends15:32
rick_h_but anyway, sorry you and pylint disagree today15:32
jrwrenits ok, i took your advice.15:33
jrwrenif i've learned anything in the past year its that i'm terrible at python15:34
rick_h_it should have been...there's always someone worse and usually paid more than you :P15:34
jrwrenoh sure, I can make it do anything I want to, but its rarely pythonic when I do it. I usually think functional and then have to rethink to get it into python15:35
rick_h_hmm, not sure why functional should throw it off15:35
jrwreni find functional programming in python to be particularly challenging15:35
jrwreni think because I'm used to C#,F#,ocaml style of functional15:36
jrwrenlist comprehensions are almost anti-functional IMO15:36
jrwrenI know it isn't true15:36
rick_h_ah ok. I mean you might need to grab some stdlib help but normally functional works ok15:36
rick_h_but yea, it's a broad idea I guess15:36
jrwrenit is a different functional thought process than I'm used to15:37
jrwrenfinding hte writing itertools funciton or deciding it doesn't exist...15:38
snap-lHonestly I find my biggest problem in Python is not making classes soon enough15:57
snap-linstead you get all of this sorta-related-data floating around inside of a file15:58
brousch1rick_h_: Are you using Ming? http://merciless.sourceforge.net/tour.html16:16
rick_h_brousch1: no, we're anti well defined schema atm...more overhead16:16
brousch1speed freaks16:17
jrwreni have opposite problem with classes too soon.16:18
jrwrenlots of behavior, no data16:18
rick_h_every function call is sacred, every function call si great...16:18
jrwrenshould have been module level functions16:18
jrwrenbut i'm used to langs without module level functions where this is norm16:19
brousch1The module is a class16:20
rick_h_heh, without any instance separation16:21
rick_h_on NO! it's a global! everyone run!16:21
brousch1One instance should be enough for anyone16:21
jrwrenthe module is a class?16:24
jrwrenno, its an instance of module16:25
rick_h_jrwren: he's being sarcastic. from app import models. models.function()16:25
jrwrenoh, LOLz16:25
brousch1greg-g: You feeling better? We found another lawyer to fill in last night. The talks went very well.17:11
greg-gbrousch1: yeah, got to feeling better around 4pm my time, after a lot of time out in the sun. Glad it worked out OK!17:18
brousch1he had a talk partially prepared for a local conference in a month on a similar topic, so it worked very well17:19
brousch1Plus he got free pizza and drinks at the meeting. Yours was going to be in bad shape after I ship it across the country17:23
greg-ghaha, sad17:25
greg-gyeah, saw that, and I almost puked for the second time this week17:31
greg-gseriously, disgusting17:31
brousch1Energy drinks!17:32
brousch1I don't understand the point or how hacks will be judged17:34
greg-gthat's why, because of stupidity17:35
greg-gsorry, I'll go back to playing cribbage with the rest of the old folks in this here home17:35
brousch1But you're the one in San Francisco. All of this is your fault17:36
* greg-g hangs head17:36
greg-gI'm sorry, guys. I didn't mean it. It just, kind of happened. No one really saw it coming until it was too late.17:37
snap-lI hope they have the purell-a-thon, or they'll really have a hack-athon.17:38
greg-ghar har har17:38
brousch1We just had Startup Weekend in GR. It is similar, though more structured. I'm too old to do anything but sleep for 36 hours17:38
snap-lI'm all for shoving developers in a closet somewhere with bandwidth, pizza and beer, but it feels like cheap labor.17:40
greg-git's worse than that17:40
snap-lgreg-g: elaborate, pls?17:41
greg-git perpetuates this stupid effing (sorry, if you want me to elaborate on that part, you might get more swear words) culture.17:41
snap-lWe only allow University students to participate; that includes undergradutes and graduates of 2-4 year institutions.17:42
greg-gmakes it seem all grandiose17:42
* jrwren rages against python17:42
snap-lgreg-g: That developing is all about adrenaline-fueled rushes?17:42
greg-gand that "developing" == "startup"17:43
snap-lgreg-g: Ah, but I think it's a good thing, to a point17:44
greg-ghow so?17:44
snap-lSure, there's a lot of folks who think their dippy little idea is going to make them a boat-ton of money17:44
snap-lbut if it weren't for people trying to push the ball a little further, we might not have Facebook / Google / all of those sposnoring companies.17:45
snap-lAnd something tells me it's a job fair in disguise.17:45
snap-lWhat I don't like is the idea of companies looking for student workers who are naive, and prone to burn out trying to please their corporate masters.17:46
greg-gright, def a job fair type thing, I suppose17:46
greg-gyeah, that part is almost inherent in this culture out here, really17:46
snap-lIt's akin to having a talent competition where you get all of these "Rock stars" together to have a battle of the bands17:47
greg-ghence google's free food, massages, laundry, school buses, etc17:47
snap-levery one of them think they'll make it17:47
snap-land the industry is littered with the carcasses of those got ground up in the machinery.17:47
greg-gwarning, personal rant that may offend and/or provoke:17:48
greg-gthe epitome of capitalism17:48
snap-lThink about it: how much do you groan inside when someone says they're in a band17:48
brousch1jrwren: What'd Python do to you now? Kicked your dog?17:49
snap-lNow how much do you groan when soemone says they're in a startup17:49
brousch1I don't groan so much as put on a look of pity17:49
greg-ga ton more, becauase at least the people in bands really know they arne't going to make it big, and they aren't trying to suck the teet of a VC17:49
greg-gat least, every person who I knew who was in a band knew the odds of making it big and lived their life accordingly. Not so with startup exec wannabes17:50
greg-gof course, I'm soured of this culture here, I may be biased :)17:51
snap-lgreg-g: I've known a few bands that thought by moving to LA they'd make it big17:53
snap-lIt was a band I was in.17:53
snap-lAnd no, we did not move. I left the band after graduation, and it dissolved soon after.17:53
* greg-g nods17:53
greg-gI didn't mean to (maybe I did?) make it out to be black and white, but, lets say it is broad generalizations17:53
greg-gat least from my perspective17:54
snap-lAnd I'd argue there's more examples of bands not making it than bands making it17:54
greg-g(again, being here, inundated with it)17:54
snap-lYeah, totally.17:54
snap-lWell, you also have people who want to ensure they never have to work in a corporate world17:54
greg-gI may have a diff perspective if I were in LA17:54
greg-g(the opposite, in fact, but I'd probably still dislike where I lived ;) )17:55
snap-lAnd instead recreate it in their living room17:55
jcastrosnap-l: did your stuff get sorted when you increased the inotify watches?18:10
snap-ljcastro: I haven't seen it since18:11
snap-lI accepted the answer on askubuntu18:12
jrwrenbrousch1: python just isn't what I want. its far from waht I would call good.  in this case sort v. sorted. sort doesn't return a value. FUNCTIONS SHOULD RETURN VALUES FFS!!!18:12
jcastrosnap-l: did you ask a question or use the one I linked you?18:13
snap-ljcastro: I asked a question18:16
jcastrolink me up yo18:16
jcastroI can search for it, but I don't know your username18:16
snap-l(You prevented someone from bolding Dropbox and 12.04)18:16
snap-ljcastro: ^^18:18
snap-ljcastro: Up there ^^^18:18
jcastrogot it18:19
rick_h_jrwren: I'm with you on this one. I always have to look up and work around list.sort() sorted() etc18:19
jrwrenYAY! i don't suck!18:20
jrwrenseriously, its good to know that rick_h_ thinks the same things are warts as me.18:20
rick_h_"every language has warts. If you don't think so you don't know it well enough"18:20
rick_h_or something like that18:20
snap-lYeah, sort and shuffle are always fun ones18:21
* greg-g nods18:21
rick_h_http://r.bmark.us/u/0b17059e03ec04 s3 compitition ftw18:24
brousch1I had a beta invite for that and never got around to trying it :(18:25
snap-lI wouldn't call it a wart, more of a convention that isn't apparent18:25
snap-lIt's nice to not have to burn through temp lists to sort or shuffle a list.18:25
snap-lbut it isn't apparent when you do sorted_list = unsorted.sort()18:26
rick_h_yea, I mean evertually you figured out sorted or instance.sort but it's still a wart18:26
rick_h_especially when you consider len() :P18:27
snap-lrick_h_: yeah18:28
snap-lPicked up some of those environmental sound as mp3s for pretty cheap.18:28
snap-lOcean Waves, Thunderstorm by the Sea, and Thundering Rainstorm.18:29
snap-lI'd like to know how HP can take a $6,400 laptop and still make it look cheap. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/hands-on-with-6400-of-workstation-class-laptop/20:30
brousch1greg-g: Congrats21:23
greg-gwhoa, you already saw that! I just posted! :)21:24
greg-gbrousch1: thanks :)21:25
brousch1GReader is right on it21:26
brousch1Oh wait, it came via email21:26
rick_h_greg-g: interesting, look forward to chatting release processes and such21:26
greg-grick_h_: yep, would love to get your thoughts, I'm going to be stealing from, I mean, borrowing the good ideas from Canonical ;)21:27
snap-lgreg-g: Nuts, now who will I talk CC 4.0 with? :)21:27
brousch1When will you covert them to Python?21:27
snap-lgreg-g: Congratulations!21:27
snap-lgreg-g: Still in the bay area?21:27
rick_h_coming back to MI! :P21:28
greg-gyep, WMF is in downtown (SOMA area)21:28
snap-lgreg-g: Nuts and awesome.21:28
greg-g20 min bike ride versus 1 hour bike+caltrain21:28
snap-lgreg-g: Hm, so near soma.fm? :)21:29
greg-gindeed, if they actually have an office that is ;)21:29
greg-gI always imagined Somafm being distributed21:30
snap-lYeah, I don't know if they do or not.21:30

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