[00:45] <rick_h_> wheee
[00:51] <snap-l> Evening
[00:51] <rick_h_> party
[12:05] <rick_h_> morning and all that jazz
[12:20] <brousch> Sick kid again today
[12:22] <rick_h_> :(
[12:51] <snap-l> brousch: Hope he feels better soon.
[12:51] <snap-l> Sick kid [12:52]  * rick_h_ feels sick...just added MongoDB to vim dict 
[12:53] <snap-l> rick_h_: all are welcome.
[13:04] <rick_h_> grrrr...stupid people that can't set up a installable python package correctly...
[14:43] <snap-l> Are we having fun yet?
[14:43] <rick_h_> not really
[14:44] <rick_h_> is it friday yet
[14:44] <snap-l> Not yet.
[14:46] <snap-l> Though we're gettig closer.
[14:52] <jrwren> I am.
[14:52] <jrwren> I think I know btter than pylint :p
[14:52] <rick_h_> hah
[14:52] <rick_h_> just got through linting through a stupid library I had to fork because it's .tar.gz was uninstallable
[14:53] <rick_h_> what is pylint telling you? The only one I think is the multiple imports around a try/except
[14:54] <jrwren> pylint rule C0103 is stupid IMO. attr names (should match [a-z_][a-z0-9_]{2,30}$)
[14:54] <jrwren> feels wrong.
[14:54] <jrwren> {2,} is more like it
[14:54] <rick_h_> oh man, what attr name are you using?
[14:55] <jrwren> _update_trafic_trends_from_values_
[14:55] <jrwren> and even that I don't like
[14:55] <rick_h_> ends with _? and from_values I find is normally just wasted verbage :/
[14:55] <jrwren> I'd rather it be update_traffic_trends_from_MORE_DESCRIPTION_values
[14:56] <rick_h_> update_traffic_trends(values=None, another_source=None): dispatch from here
[14:56] <rick_h_> imo :)
[14:56] <jrwren> yeah, i considered that.
[14:56] <jrwren> then I also consider someone with a shite editor who doesn't see the doc or even args.
[14:56] <jrwren> I miss types.
[14:56] <rick_h_> shush!
[14:57] <jrwren> trailing _ is throw back from C. I should stop that habbit.
[14:57] <jrwren> i guess it is not pythonic
[14:57] <rick_h_> if they miss that then shove it. If they can't see the code or the docs then fubar
[14:57] <rick_h_> what is it supposed to mean? Can't recall ever seeing that
[14:57] <rick_h_> the underscaore that is
[14:57] <jrwren> signifies private, like in python
[14:57] <rick_h_> that's what the _ is for
[14:57] <jrwren> but in C, all functions starting with _ are reserved
[14:57] <rick_h_> to start with
[14:57] <rick_h_> ah
[14:57] <jrwren> can't do that in C
[14:58] <jrwren> most compilers accept it, but it is technically out of spec.
[14:58] <rick_h_> yea, the _update_traffic_trends already means private. And if it's private why bothering about docs/editors?
[14:58] <jrwren> that is the OTHER thing.
[14:58] <rick_h_> lol
[14:58] <jrwren> C0111 pylint wants docstring on private
[14:58] <jrwren> I'm like WTF
[14:59] <jrwren> the bother is to convey intent to the next maintainer
[14:59] <rick_h_> sure, why not? You wrote it, you should doc it when you come back to your code.
[14:59] <rick_h_> right
[14:59] <jrwren> this is NOT simple code at all, it gets head twisting
[14:59] <rick_h_> all the more reason for docstrings
[14:59] <jrwren> oh, so you are syaing yes to docstrings on the private
[14:59] <rick_h_> yes
[14:59] <jrwren> cool. I usually do anyway :)
[14:59] <rick_h_> ok cool
[15:00] <rick_h_> people don't doc their code enough for my tastes. Drives me nuts
[15:01] <rick_h_> got handed this to review the other day and drove me nuts that there's not a single comment about expected structure of the data, why it's formatted in the way it is, etc http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~juju-jitsu/charmworld/trunk/view/head:/charmworld/jobs/cstat.py
[15:01] <rick_h_> wanted to just return 'will-no-review-no-docs'
[15:27] <jrwren> and THAT is another reason I like static types.
[15:27] <jrwren> and I don't just mean static langs, but static types.
[15:28] <jrwren> if you are using all dicts for structure in a static lang, its no different than a dynamic lang for opaque data structure
[15:28] <jrwren> but when you define your own type heirarchy and use hte type system, its oh so discoverable
[15:30] <rick_h_> right, well this is a mess because of mongodb everything's a dict pita
[15:30] <rick_h_> we could implement our own model/type later on top but our TA has shot that down as unnecessary overhead :(
[15:31] <jrwren> your TA is a fool.
[15:31] <jrwren> :p
[15:31] <rick_h_> hah! we can drink to that
[15:31] <jrwren> you should gift him a copy of Domain Driven Development and expense i.
[15:32] <rick_h_> many gifts I could grant...some of them with spinny little sharp ends
[15:32] <rick_h_> but anyway, sorry you and pylint disagree today
[15:33] <jrwren> its ok, i took your advice.
[15:34] <jrwren> if i've learned anything in the past year its that i'm terrible at python
[15:34] <rick_h_> it should have been...there's always someone worse and usually paid more than you :P
[15:35] <jrwren> oh sure, I can make it do anything I want to, but its rarely pythonic when I do it. I usually think functional and then have to rethink to get it into python
[15:35] <rick_h_> hmm, not sure why functional should throw it off
[15:35] <jrwren> i find functional programming in python to be particularly challenging
[15:36] <jrwren> i think because I'm used to C#,F#,ocaml style of functional
[15:36] <jrwren> list comprehensions are almost anti-functional IMO
[15:36] <jrwren> I know it isn't true
[15:36] <rick_h_> ah ok. I mean you might need to grab some stdlib help but normally functional works ok
[15:36] <rick_h_> but yea, it's a broad idea I guess
[15:37] <jrwren> it is a different functional thought process than I'm used to
[15:38] <jrwren> finding hte writing itertools funciton or deciding it doesn't exist...
[15:57] <snap-l> Honestly I find my biggest problem in Python is not making classes soon enough
[15:58] <snap-l> instead you get all of this sorta-related-data floating around inside of a file
[16:16] <brousch1> rick_h_: Are you using Ming? http://merciless.sourceforge.net/tour.html
[16:16] <rick_h_> brousch1: no, we're anti well defined schema atm...more overhead
[16:17] <brousch1> speed freaks
[16:18] <jrwren> i have opposite problem with classes too soon.
[16:18] <jrwren> lots of behavior, no data
[16:18] <rick_h_> every function call is sacred, every function call si great...
[16:18] <jrwren> should have been module level functions
[16:19] <jrwren> but i'm used to langs without module level functions where this is norm
[16:20] <brousch1> The module is a class
[16:21] <rick_h_> heh, without any instance separation
[16:21] <rick_h_> on NO! it's a global! everyone run!
[16:21] <brousch1> One instance should be enough for anyone
[16:24] <jrwren> the module is a class?
[16:25] <jrwren> no, its an instance of module
[16:25] <rick_h_> jrwren: he's being sarcastic. from app import models. models.function()
[16:25] <jrwren> oh, LOLz
[17:11] <brousch1> greg-g: You feeling better? We found another lawyer to fill in last night. The talks went very well.
[17:18] <greg-g> brousch1: yeah, got to feeling better around 4pm my time, after a lot of time out in the sun. Glad it worked out OK!
[17:19] <brousch1> he had a talk partially prepared for a local conference in a month on a similar topic, so it worked very well
[17:22] <greg-g> awesome
[17:23] <brousch1> Plus he got free pizza and drinks at the meeting. Yours was going to be in bad shape after I ship it across the country
[17:24] <brousch1> :D
[17:25] <greg-g> haha, sad
[17:30] <brousch1> http://www.mhacks.org/
[17:31] <greg-g> yeah, saw that, and I almost puked for the second time this week
[17:31] <brousch1> hah
[17:31] <greg-g> seriously, disgusting
[17:32] <brousch1> Energy drinks!
[17:34] <brousch1> I don't understand the point or how hacks will be judged
[17:35] <greg-g> but, HACK! ATHON! ALL NIGHT! THE ZONE! FACEBOOK! BILLIONAIRE!
[17:35] <greg-g> that's why, because of stupidity
[17:35] <greg-g> sorry, I'll go back to playing cribbage with the rest of the old folks in this here home
[17:36] <brousch1> But you're the one in San Francisco. All of this is your fault
[17:36]  * greg-g hangs head
[17:37] <greg-g> I'm sorry, guys. I didn't mean it. It just, kind of happened. No one really saw it coming until it was too late.
[17:38] <snap-l> I hope they have the purell-a-thon, or they'll really have a hack-athon.
[17:38] <greg-g> har har har
[17:38] <greg-g> ;)
[17:38] <brousch1> We just had Startup Weekend in GR. It is similar, though more structured. I'm too old to do anything but sleep for 36 hours
[17:40] <snap-l> I'm all for shoving developers in a closet somewhere with bandwidth, pizza and beer, but it feels like cheap labor.
[17:40] <greg-g> it's worse than that
[17:41] <snap-l> greg-g: elaborate, pls?
[17:41] <greg-g> it perpetuates this stupid effing (sorry, if you want me to elaborate on that part, you might get more swear words) culture.
[17:42] <snap-l> We only allow University students to participate; that includes undergradutes and graduates of 2-4 year institutions.
[17:42] <greg-g> makes it seem all grandiose
[17:42]  * jrwren rages against python
[17:42] <snap-l> greg-g: That developing is all about adrenaline-fueled rushes?
[17:43] <greg-g> and that "developing" == "startup"
[17:44] <snap-l> greg-g: Ah, but I think it's a good thing, to a point
[17:44] <greg-g> how so?
[17:44] <snap-l> Sure, there's a lot of folks who think their dippy little idea is going to make them a boat-ton of money
[17:45] <snap-l> but if it weren't for people trying to push the ball a little further, we might not have Facebook / Google / all of those sposnoring companies.
[17:45] <snap-l> And something tells me it's a job fair in disguise.
[17:46] <snap-l> What I don't like is the idea of companies looking for student workers who are naive, and prone to burn out trying to please their corporate masters.
[17:46] <greg-g> right, def a job fair type thing, I suppose
[17:46] <greg-g> yeah, that part is almost inherent in this culture out here, really
[17:47] <snap-l> It's akin to having a talent competition where you get all of these "Rock stars" together to have a battle of the bands
[17:47] <greg-g> hence google's free food, massages, laundry, school buses, etc
[17:47] <snap-l> every one of them think they'll make it
[17:47] <snap-l> and the industry is littered with the carcasses of those got ground up in the machinery.
[17:48] <greg-g> warning, personal rant that may offend and/or provoke:
[17:48] <greg-g> the epitome of capitalism

[17:48] <snap-l> Think about it: how much do you groan inside when someone says they're in a band
[17:49] <brousch1> jrwren: What'd Python do to you now? Kicked your dog?
[17:49] <snap-l> Now how much do you groan when soemone says they're in a startup
[17:49] <brousch1> I don't groan so much as put on a look of pity
[17:49] <greg-g> a ton more, becauase at least the people in bands really know they arne't going to make it big, and they aren't trying to suck the teet of a VC
[17:50] <greg-g> at least, every person who I knew who was in a band knew the odds of making it big and lived their life accordingly. Not so with startup exec wannabes
[17:51] <greg-g> of course, I'm soured of this culture here, I may be biased :)
[17:53] <snap-l> greg-g: I've known a few bands that thought by moving to LA they'd make it big
[17:53] <snap-l> It was a band I was in.
[17:53] <snap-l> And no, we did not move. I left the band after graduation, and it dissolved soon after.
[17:53]  * greg-g nods
[17:53] <greg-g> I didn't mean to (maybe I did?) make it out to be black and white, but, lets say it is broad generalizations
[17:54] <greg-g> at least from my perspective
[17:54] <snap-l> And I'd argue there's more examples of bands not making it than bands making it
[17:54] <greg-g> (again, being here, inundated with it)
[17:54] <snap-l> Yeah, totally.
[17:54] <snap-l> Well, you also have people who want to ensure they never have to work in a corporate world
[17:54] <greg-g> I may have a diff perspective if I were in LA
[17:55] <greg-g> (the opposite, in fact, but I'd probably still dislike where I lived ;) )
[17:55] <snap-l> And instead recreate it in their living room
[18:10] <jcastro> snap-l: did your stuff get sorted when you increased the inotify watches?
[18:11] <snap-l> jcastro: I haven't seen it since
[18:12] <snap-l> I accepted the answer on askubuntu
[18:12] <jrwren> brousch1: python just isn't what I want. its far from waht I would call good.  in this case sort v. sorted. sort doesn't return a value. FUNCTIONS SHOULD RETURN VALUES FFS!!!
[18:13] <jcastro> snap-l: did you ask a question or use the one I linked you?
[18:16] <snap-l> jcastro: I asked a question
[18:16] <jcastro> link me up yo
[18:16] <jcastro> I can search for it, but I don't know your username
[18:16] <snap-l> http://askubuntu.com/questions/247461/cant-access-dropbox-folder-error-under-ubuntu-12-04
[18:16] <snap-l> (You prevented someone from bolding Dropbox and 12.04)
[18:18] <snap-l> ^^
[18:18] <snap-l> jcastro: ^^
[18:18] <snap-l> jcastro: Up there ^^^
[18:18] <snap-l> ;)
[18:19] <jcastro> got it
[18:19] <rick_h_> jrwren: I'm with you on this one. I always have to look up and work around list.sort() sorted() etc
[18:20] <jrwren> YAY! i don't suck!
[18:20] <jrwren> seriously, its good to know that rick_h_ thinks the same things are warts as me.
[18:20] <rick_h_> "every language has warts. If you don't think so you don't know it well enough"
[18:20] <rick_h_> or something like that
[18:21] <snap-l> tx
[18:21] <snap-l> Yeah, sort and shuffle are always fun ones
[18:21] <brousch1> s/language/thing/
[18:21]  * greg-g nods
[18:24] <rick_h_> http://r.bmark.us/u/0b17059e03ec04 s3 compitition ftw
[18:25] <brousch1> I had a beta invite for that and never got around to trying it :(
[18:25] <snap-l> I wouldn't call it a wart, more of a convention that isn't apparent
[18:25] <snap-l> It's nice to not have to burn through temp lists to sort or shuffle a list.
[18:26] <snap-l> but it isn't apparent when you do sorted_list = unsorted.sort()
[18:26] <rick_h_> yea, I mean evertually you figured out sorted or instance.sort but it's still a wart
[18:27] <rick_h_> especially when you consider len() :P
[18:28] <snap-l> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003DQOTAA/ref=as_li_ss_til?tag=decafbadnet-20&camp=0&creative=0&linkCode=as4&creativeASIN=B003DQOTAA&adid=1MX8EB40MRQ2PK9X98XE&
[18:28] <snap-l> rick_h_: yeah
[18:28] <snap-l> Picked up some of those environmental sound as mp3s for pretty cheap.
[18:29] <snap-l> Ocean Waves, Thunderstorm by the Sea, and Thundering Rainstorm.
[20:30] <snap-l> I'd like to know how HP can take a $6,400 laptop and still make it look cheap. http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/hands-on-with-6400-of-workstation-class-laptop/
[21:23] <brousch1> greg-g: Congrats
[21:24] <greg-g> whoa, you already saw that! I just posted! :)
[21:25] <greg-g> brousch1: thanks :)
[21:26] <brousch1> GReader is right on it
[21:26] <brousch1> Oh wait, it came via email
[21:26] <rick_h_> greg-g: interesting, look forward to chatting release processes and such
[21:27] <greg-g> rick_h_: yep, would love to get your thoughts, I'm going to be stealing from, I mean, borrowing the good ideas from Canonical ;)
[21:27] <snap-l> greg-g: Nuts, now who will I talk CC 4.0 with? :)
[21:27] <brousch1> When will you covert them to Python?
[21:27] <greg-g> :)
[21:27] <snap-l> greg-g: Congratulations!
[21:27] <snap-l> greg-g: Still in the bay area?
[21:28] <rick_h_> coming back to MI! :P
[21:28] <greg-g> yep, WMF is in downtown (SOMA area)
[21:28] <snap-l> greg-g: Nuts and awesome.
[21:28] <greg-g> 20 min bike ride versus 1 hour bike+caltrain
[21:29] <snap-l> greg-g: Hm, so near soma.fm? :)
[21:29] <greg-g> indeed, if they actually have an office that is ;)
[21:30] <greg-g> I always imagined Somafm being distributed
[21:30] <snap-l> Yeah, I don't know if they do or not.