[15:38] <len-1304> zequence, have you played with 13.04 much? Which file manager do you use on a daily basis?
[15:39] <len-1304> I have been using Thunar with no issues for over a month now.
[15:40] <len-1304> I find the UI easier to understand... but I don't know how long that will be true for the average user.
[15:41] <len-1304> catfish is getting a rewrite and looks like it is to the testing stage.
[15:42] <zequence> len-1304: I don't really do much desktop testing
[15:43] <zequence> I don't use XFCE on a daily basis. I rather use Gnome3
[15:43] <zequence> I only boot into XFCE if I need to do something specific
[15:43] <zequence> Right now I've got all the releases, both 32 and 64 bit installed, so I can do testing, if needed
[15:44] <len-1304> Ok, I am just wondering if there is any reason to keep nautilus.
[15:44] <zequence> So far, I'm just booting lowlatency kernels on them as a part of the update/maintenance procedure
[15:46] <zequence> len-1304: I'm more or less of the opinion, that we could just as well use either XFCE defaults, or Xubuntu defaults as far as it doesn't affect our workflows negatively
[15:46] <zequence> I've started to think about the possibility of keeping multiple desktop solutions for Ubuntu Studio
[15:47] <zequence> I pitched the idea to falktx, saying why not he maintained a KDE version of ubuntustudio-desktop
[15:47] <zequence> He didn't seem to interested though
[15:47] <zequence> And of course, it would require interest
[15:47] <len-1304> I should perhaps work on a menu set that was more generic then.
[15:48] <zequence> I think our menu is great. I just think we should follow the established standards to the letter, and push upstream changes to the standards that we require
[15:49] <len-1304> What I mean is that our menu will only show in xfce
[15:49] <len-1304> it is possible to make those changes show up in kde as well
[15:49] <zequence> Oh, I think that would be much better, yes
[15:49] <len-1304> (and gnome )
[15:49] <len-1304> It will take some work :)
[15:50] <len-1304> I don't want to go back to three or more menu config files
[15:50] <zequence> We might need to think more about these things, but AFA the meny goes, I think it makes sense to have it be as generic as possible
[15:51] <len-1304> OK, once -settings gets released as is so I can test our icon theme and it works right I will work on that next.
[16:18] <len-1304> Just tested the newest catfish, it opens but has problems in R.
[16:19] <len-1304> The dev lives on #xubuntu-devel so I will follow his PPA and do testing for it. I think we need a search utility now that none of the file managers have one.
[16:25] <len-1304> zequence, I have set up an internet streaming set up with two machines. (this is the normal way to do it) I don't know if we want to add the apps for this workflow or not. Basically it is just IDJC. The server side... well is server :)
[16:26] <len-1304> By the time the stream gets to the server it is high latency (5 sec or so) and I have ubuntu server on that one.
[16:29] <len-1304> There seem to be a number of fixes coming in the new unreleased as yet pulse. I hope to see them in Ubuntu for R, but if not we should have them by next LTS.
[16:30] <len-1304> I have asked for the PA-jack bridge to default to stereo (2 channels) rather than as many as the hardware supports.
[16:31] <len-1304> This should be more in line with (semi)pro needs.
[16:56] <zequence> len-1304: Sounds good about the bridge
[16:57] <zequence> len-1304: Don't know much about streaming, but that's probably something worth making easy on US as well
[17:05] <len-1304> zequence, The streaming part is actually easy. It is the extras that seem to cause the most trouble.
[17:06] <len-1304> It seems that with either streaming or podcast creation, remote interview stuff gets thrown in.
[17:06] <len-1304> So the phone/conference to jack interface gets to be the trouble part.
[17:08] <len-1304> It is possible to do a phone/skype recording all in PA... but it is not intuitive at all. There is much manual set up required after the call has been connected :P
[17:27] <zequence> I guess it might make sense to finish testing stuff first, as that is the "simplest" part of development, and the first step towards fixing stuff
[17:27] <zequence> Just thinking what I should do right now
[19:41] <zequence> len-1304: This might be a nice resource, if you wanted to learn python https://python-guide.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
[19:42] <len-1304> Thank you. What I really need to do is some coding... like work on a project  :)
[19:42] <len-1304> But I will add that to the site I was following.
[19:43] <len-1304> (a gnome site I think)
[19:43] <zequence> I was looking at docs for UTAH, the testing system being developed and which I was intending to see if we could use for anything intelligent. Seems to be some nice docs on that site
[19:44] <zequence> readthedocs.org
[19:59] <len-1304> Oh my, someone is trying to suspend US  :P  
[19:59] <len-1304> Anyway, I have posted an email to the list about the internet streaming/podcast work flow.
[20:00] <len-1304> Just some thoughts and experiences.
[20:00] <zequence> suspend?
[20:00] <len-1304> Lumpy, feel free to add whatever as you use this setup.
[20:01] <len-1304> Ya bug #586209
[22:49] <zequence> Since Ubuntu is going mobile some time next year, that will become a possible tool for anything multimedia, including low latency audio
[22:49] <zequence> Android is said to have lousy low latency audio
[23:03] <len-1304> zequence, The question is if that is internal audio or USB audio.
[23:05] <zequence> len-1304: Not sure what the hardware will look like, but since from what I understand, the phone can be docked and turned into a regular desktop system, it might support a usb interface
[23:06] <zequence> Even with internal audio, you can use it to create content, even if not recording audio with it
[23:06] <zequence> You could make beats, record voice fragments, sample stuff
[23:07] <zequence> Sampling does require a bit of quality though, so some way of using an external mic would be required
[23:07] <len-1304> I guess what I am saying is that my netbook, similar in design idea, has really bad internal latency because of bad HW decisions. But is ok with external HW
[23:09] <zequence> The change in processor architecture alone makes a big difference
[23:09] <zequence> From what I've seen, arm processors need some getting used to for audio developers
[23:10] <zequence> The big difference with the Ubuntu phone will be that it's practically the same OS as a desktop os. It has the same core components
[23:11] <zequence> ..compared to other phone OSs
[23:11] <zequence> And that does open up for a lot of fun things
[23:12] <zequence> We aren't exactly well manned, but it might be something we should look into. How to bring Ubuntu Studio to the phone
[23:12] <len-1304> It means to me (hope I'm wrong) that the desktop version will be less nice... or less smart.
[23:12] <zequence> It just means that the desktop will be available directly from the phone
[23:13] <zequence> Unity will have three different view modes. 1.Phone, 2.Desktop, 3.TV
[23:13] <zequence> The phone becomes all of those three things
[23:13] <zequence> That's at least the impression I'm getting
[23:13] <zequence> You can still install anything you want on it
[23:14] <zequence> Applications will need more than one view mode as well
[23:14] <len-1304> Ya, From looking at unity though, The desktop is getting less able to handle complex tasks such as development.... which includes audio/video etc.
[23:14] <zequence> How so?
[23:14] <zequence> It's a regular desktop
[23:14] <len-1304> Unity tends to single app use.
[23:14] <zequence> Nothing has disappeared in functionality
[23:15] <len-1304> BRB
[23:15] <zequence> I don't see why people think that
[23:16] <zequence> Personally, I find Gnome3 a lot easier to work with than Unity, which is a little slow, and I don't like the global menu. 
[23:16] <zequence> And, I wouldn't go back to the traditional desktop
[23:17] <zequence> I only do multimedia and development pretty much
[23:17] <zequence> as well as normal usage of course
[23:18] <zequence> I think with the Ubuntu phone, probably other UIs will be installable at some point
[23:18] <zequence> ..and used for the phone UI
[23:19] <zequence> The term "single app" is not something that is likely to happen on a Linux system
[23:20] <zequence> It's a multiuser and a multi application environment. All though some systems, like pulseaudio, don't always fit that category
[23:21] <astraljava> zequence: I'm not exactly sure Ubuntu Phone users should even be our target audience.
[23:22] <len-1304> Sorry I should have said single app on the screen at one time
[23:22] <astraljava> I don't think any self-respecting high quality creator would give half a thought of recording much with a phone. Not even a tablet.
[23:23] <len-1304> Phones are good for "reporter" kinds of use.
[23:23] <astraljava> Yes, but are they our target user base?
[23:23] <zequence> astraljava: Why is that exactly? You ever heard of people recording with portable DAT tape recorders?
[23:23] <len-1304> A very very small part :)
[23:23] <zequence> It's not exactly a new concept
[23:24] <zequence> Jeez
[23:24] <len-1304> But it could become a larger part if the HW supports it.
[23:24] <zequence> It's a computer, like any computer. It's just small
[23:24] <astraljava> Yes, true. But like len-1304 said, the user interface is designed for showing one window at the time. That's not very practical for anything multimedia creation work flow, is it.
[23:25] <len-1304> SWitching workspaces with unity is a pain... with a capital P
[23:25] <len-1304> Maybe there is a shortcut... but the gui option is slow
[23:26] <astraljava> And even with a screen with 4.8" desktop, especially when we're going towards Full-HD, or even larger, how would you handle a mixer window with, say, 8 channels?
[23:26] <zequence> Unity is in no way designed for single app windows, one at the time. The phone will of course do that, in phone mode (would be weird having 5 apps open in the same window, when you're only interested in controlling one at the time)
[23:27] <zequence> len-1304: Ctrl+Alt+Arrows
[23:27] <astraljava> Or from a graphic artist POV, how would you draw anything on that screen? Even selecting anything on that precise a screen would become a PITA.
[23:27] <zequence> astraljava: Are you talking about recording, or mixing?
[23:27] <len-1304> Short cuts are not GUI. They are CLI stuff
[23:28] <zequence> A table might actually do all the things you can do on a desktop
[23:28] <zequence> But, not a phone, with such a small gui
[23:28] <astraljava> Whatever. The information bits become way too tiny for any type of pointing device, stylus etc. but digits even more so.
[23:28] <zequence> I mean, you could, but it might not be time saving
[23:29] <zequence> I think all of that is bollocks. It's a computer. Each gui mode has it's own interface. You can code new interfaces for old functions(programs). You use the right tool for the right job, and sometimes, or often, they are all good for the same job
[23:29] <len-1304> Normally a small device for audio would be something that records two tracks. Once you add an external card, there is no point in using such a small device.
[23:30] <astraljava> Yeah ok. When I see someone using Ardour 3 with a new front-end without any glitches, on a Samsung Galaxy S3 (or similar), I'll buy it. For some reasons, I'm not holding my breath.
[23:31] <zequence> astraljava: Let's say there is one thing you can't do using the phone. Does that mean it's useless for multimedia?
[23:32] <zequence> Even if it only does 30%, it's still a valid device
[23:32] <astraljava> Look, I'm not questioning the device's limitations. I'm questioning users' limitations. Information shown becomes too small for most people's eyes. And I'm saying this as a person who has been complimented as having the best eye-sight from a couple of tens of thousands of employees' corporation.
[23:32] <len-1304> I can't see tracking.... but then again there are 4 track devices that are really small too.
[23:32] <zequence> You can do tracking as long as you have multichannel devices
[23:33] <len-1304> Tracking requires one input... at least
[23:33] <zequence> Ah, right. You mean adding tracks afterwards
[23:33] <astraljava> zequence: I'm saying I don't see those devices as something this project should be concentrating on. Sure, fix bugs if people find them on those devices. But don't put it too high on the priority lists.
[23:34] <len-1304> I think a studio meta for portable devices might be a better idea.
[23:34] <zequence> astraljava: I think that's up to anyone who wants to do the work
[23:34] <zequence> There are no limitations to what we can do, other than, who is willing to do it
[23:35] <zequence> There's no need for consensus on a lot of things we do. If we had more people, we could do more things. That's how I see it anyway
[23:36] <zequence> There's no need to pull the handbrake everytime someone suggests something new
[23:36] <len-1304> Yes.
[23:36] <astraljava> Of course, I'm in no position to tell anyone what to do. Simply stating my point of view. But like you said, the power of this project is having a few people working on things mutually agreed upon. It's not like there's a queue of willing people that are just dying to have their hands on the codebase.
[23:37] <len-1304> I agree.
[23:38] <astraljava> zequence: That's a very funny idea, how did you even come up with that? Is it like you were about to commit code, and I refused a merge proposal? 
[23:39] <zequence> It's just the general attitude I see from most people. Including me, sometimes
[23:39] <astraljava> I'm sorry if you took that personally. I hope you understand I have no formal authority here, and that you are free to proceed with anything the project sees appropriate.
[23:40] <zequence> I will probably never take anything here personally ;)
[23:40] <astraljava> Ok good.
[23:41] <astraljava> I'm not so sure there's been a lot of pulling the handbrakes here. Like you yourself stated, it's more a question of not having enough contributors, rather than any shortage of ideas.
[23:42] <astraljava> And I really don't see too many prospects being turned away by refusing to consider their ideas, either.
[23:42] <zequence> the Ubuntu phone will be the first ever PC in a phone. In not many years after that, probably, the phone will do what our PCs are doing now. You dock it to get the desktop view. The apps are the same, just with different guis. Some things you can always do on a phone. Listening to mixes using earphones. Adjusting levels. Making beats with sequencers. 
[23:43] <astraljava> What I do see is not having a real team effort. There's lots of discussion between a handful of people, few of which push commits to the bzr branches. Nothing else, really.
[23:43] <zequence> I would say there are three people doing work right now
[23:44] <zequence> And that is from the best of our abilities
[23:44] <zequence> There's a clear plan
[23:44] <zequence> And one of the items in that plan is to get more people involved
[23:44] <zequence> astraljava: ever looked at the blueprints we have?
[23:45] <astraljava> Not really, the very limited time spent on this project has been in the scope of monitoring this channel. And as such, I have really not witnessed any suppression of new contributor efforts.
[23:46] <zequence> astraljava: I'd suggest taking a look at the blueprints, as they show what we have planned, what we are doing, and what is left to do
[23:47] <zequence> One of the efforts towards that is PR
[23:48] <astraljava> I would do so, if I saw that I had any energy to be valuable to the project. But as it stands, I'm hardly valuable to any organization within my immediate circles.
[23:48] <zequence> Unified, and more professional communication outwards
[23:48] <astraljava> Well I'm glad that is on the agenda.
[23:49] <zequence> One caveeat with a phone is storage
[23:50] <zequence> But, there's still plenty for one audio project, or any other media type
[23:50] <zequence> one, or more..
[23:57] <zequence> I was trying out autopilot earlier. Not working right for me, but seems promising for doing automated testing. I'm thinking, at least see if applications will run or not. 
[23:57] <zequence> One can make more elaborate tests, involving gui interaction
[23:58] <zequence> Those would need to be written for each application