[03:57] When's the next meeting? [03:57] tomorrow at... 2100 or something, let me check [03:57] yeah [03:58] UTC [03:59] I can't make it most likely :-( [04:00] doh :( [04:00] I think it's important for you to be there for this one, so maybe knome will reschedule [04:11] Unless he can vote absentee. [04:20] I can make something before 20:00 === micahgmobile is now known as micahg_mobile === yofel_ is now known as yofel [10:16] micahg_mobile, mr_pouit can't make it before 21... [10:17] micahg_mobile, is tomorrow or wednesday better for you at the same time? [13:14] Knome: Wed probably [13:15] micahg_mobile, "probably" is kind of bad, because if that doesn't work out, it gets harder to reschedule [14:07] Hello, I plan to attend the Xubuntu team meeting tonight. Where can I find the agenda? [14:09] Pjotr, there's no specific agenda [14:09] Pjotr, we're mainly discussing the ISO size bump [14:10] Pjotr, if people have other issues they want to raise, it's ok to simply do that [14:10] knome: OK, thanks.... [15:07] * astraljava was going to ask whether the date was set now, but notices Pjotr isn't in the channel anymore anyway, so that's sort of a moot point now. === TheDrums_ is now known as TheDrums === bluesabre_ is now known as bluesabre === scott-work_ is now known as scott-work === Soupermanito is now known as GridCube_ === Noskcaj is now known as Noskcaj_AFK [20:48] Xubuntu team meeting in about 10 minutes! [20:48] * knome goes out to take breath of fresh air [20:48] Here or -classroom? [20:48] here. [20:49] drc: Here or -meeting would be normal. [20:50] didn't they used to be in -classroom? Or is my half-heimers kicking in? [20:51] They used to be in meeting, classroom is for things that teach others, generally. [20:55] ok, half-heimers it is. === GridCube_ is now known as GridCube [20:56] Hello all [20:58] hi :) [20:58] hello [20:58] hello everybody [20:58] Howdy. [20:59] i want to go watch some black adder, so let's try to be quick today... [20:59] nah, just kidding. i'll force you to be quick. [20:59] "just kidding" ;) [20:59] hey everyone! [20:59] i'm starting the meeting just so we can check more easily who's around and take off faster [21:00] And I'll need to head out close to the end as I'm helping an older lady with her computer. [21:00] #startmeeting Xubuntu team meeting (ISO size etc.) [21:00] Meeting started Mon Feb 11 21:00:17 2013 UTC. The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology. [21:00] Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired [21:00] so who's here [21:00] o/ [21:00] say "yeeee-a" [21:00] here [21:00] it's yeeee-haa [21:01] finnish-texans, sheesh [21:01] drc, i haven't heard any artist/comedian shout out their audience like cowboys :P [21:01] \o [21:01] Yeee-haw! [21:01] ah, the left-hand cube has arrived [21:01] here [21:01] hallo [21:01] astraljava, micahgmobile, micahg_, ochosi, pleia2 [21:01] bonsoir, monsieur Le Folgoc [21:01] heya lionel! [21:02] Professional lurker here. [21:02] if any of you have any *other* agenda items than the iso size, feel free to shout them out now and i'll make sure they get processed after the iso size talk [21:02] Libre Office in the iso [21:03] not sure if mousepad made it into the default stack, but mousepad instead of leafpad [21:04] I defer one to R+1 [21:04] let's wait a bit more, since everybody said they could come... [21:04] ok [21:05] knome, do we need to start compiling a new faq, correct? [21:05] GridCube, it's not a critical task as it is, but definitely doesn't hurt if we do [21:05] and the deviantART group, i still need icons and some guidelines help [21:06] yup, i should work on those [21:06] those are my only topics [21:07] #topic ISO size for R and beyond [21:07] so... there's been a lot of discussion about the ISO size [21:08] several team members have been wanting a 1GB ISO for R (and ofc beyond) [21:08] does anybody have any objections to this for starters? [21:08] (speak and repeat, if there is anything we should consider) [21:09] I have no voting rights, but I would very much like a 1 GB iso [21:09] that's not an objection, but thanks :) [21:09] I think it could be even bigger [21:09] maddernick, for what reason? [21:09] I no longer used cd's so I'll abstain, it doesn't matter to me [21:09] Nobody uses CDs [21:09] then what's the discussion about? [21:09] maddernick, why is that a reason to have a bigger than 1GB ISO ? [21:09] DVD's or USB sticks are usually a lot bigger than 1GB [21:10] i dont have any objection, but again we need to determinate exactly who are our targets [21:10] Because then all the goodies could be on there [21:10] CD's are even becoming hard to find, in the stores in Holland. All DVD's... [21:10] * pleia2 waves [21:10] maddernick, what is it that we need in the ISO that would make it >1GB? [21:10] hey pleia2 :) [21:10] i think we cannot target old computers anymore, we need to target new users and make our distro more popular, so we need more space, old computers will have to move on, sadly [21:10] For now, perhaps nothing. But in the future there could be many things :) [21:10] * micahgmobile waves [21:10] pleia2, do you want to be the one that reads the strategy document? :) [21:10] micahgmobile, oh hullo! [21:11] maddernick, in that case, shouldn't we reconsider the size at a later time (and not have a, say 2GB image right now just because we can and we *might* need it?) [21:11] i dont see why a limit is relevant [21:12] CD size is less needed right now, but why do we need a huge size? Do we really want to add the kitchen sink? [21:12] its not like we could grow 3gb over night [21:12] The important thing is to let go of the CD size, IMHO.... [21:12] Ofc, I was merely objecting to setting a R and beyond limit in stone [21:12] GridCube, we've lost PAE support anyway, that's true. and we can help people boot from their USB via CD's even if they don't have a BIOS that can boot to USB directly [21:12] knome: what am I reading it for? :) [21:12] knome, yes, i agree [21:12] pleia2, dunno. GridCube talked about "who's our target!" :) [21:12] Gridcube: oh yeah :-P [21:13] Unit193, that's exactly what i'm thinking. if we don't have a reason to go over 1GB, why go? [21:13] and we *need* to set some limit for the ISO anyway [21:13] if we reset our target, then there is no discussion [21:13] Would Libre Office fit in 1 GB? [21:13] at this point, most people have at least a 1 gb flash drive floating around somewhere [21:13] I was honestly thinking 800 should do, but it'd be more what micahgmobile says. [21:13] i think 1GB is realistic at this point [21:13] i dont see why a limit is relevant at this point [21:13] pjotr, let's talk about that later [21:14] my major concern is that right now by continuing to squeeze it onto a CD we're taking up a lot of developer time, micahg at least is spending all this time fiddling to make it fit, time which I think could be much spent elsewhere [21:14] GridCube, just like it's good to have some deadlines, it's good to have some kind of soft limit [21:14] ^ that [21:14] bluesabre, which one? :P [21:14] I'd rather keep it well under the limit so we're not fiddling each cycle [21:14] I was writing what you wrote faster than me, knome [21:15] bluesabre, ok. :) i was wondering if you pointed to my or elizabeth's comment... [21:15] sure, but a "if it grows too much too fast then we consider it" is a better aproach imho [21:15] micahgmobile: +1 [21:15] if it looks like R is not going to fit in 1GB, then just bump it up. [21:15] sure [21:15] it's not a huge decision once we've decided to go USB anyway [21:15] So, 800-900 MB sounds good [21:15] However, I'd like to try and keep gnome deps out if it can be done. :/ [21:16] but i don't want to say "our limit is 2GB" just to be able to throw in all kind of stuff we don't really even need... [21:16] we should still try to keep it simple, so its simplier for tester and developers to mantain [21:16] yup, more packages is always more packages [21:16] not adding stuff just because there is space [21:16] right [21:16] right [21:16] ...and more to document [21:16] yup, and test [21:16] and everything [21:16] just not being concerned with space if what is needed takes more [21:16] that's why i think there needs to be a limit [21:17] The maintenance is mostly fiddling for size [21:17] our limit should be 800M but secretly 1G ;) [21:17] I'd love to get inxi in, as it's very helpful in support areas, and others as well. [21:17] and not removing stuff, like locales, i think we need ALL of the locales [21:17] we should give priority to apps we forced out last release, and language packs [21:17] * micahgmobile hands GridCube a DVD [21:17] mrpouit: +1 [21:17] +1 [21:17] +1 [21:18] Indeed. [21:18] that would probably get us back to 800mb [21:18] i think the exact limit we're targetting should be set after we've talked what we'd like to fit in for R, discussed what we *will* and after mrpouit and micahgmobile have thought how much that'd need [21:18] (again, i dont see the need of a limit, but sure) [21:18] I don't think we should go over 1 GB without a good reason [21:18] and if possible, bluesabre should be integrated in this process to help mentoring him to be a ubuntu developer [21:19] :D [21:19] i don't think we should add any package without a good reason, whichever limit it was we broke (was it 800, 850, ...) [21:19] We can have a DVD image with the kitchen sink as long as someone will test it [21:20] I'll test it... :-) [21:20] as long as we don't start adding stuff just because we can [21:20] not enough testers [21:20] agreed, not adding stuff just because [21:20] * pleia2 makes note "recruit pjotr to lead testing" [21:20] are we semi-ready to move on to more specific (sub)topics? [21:20] i propose a voting on that [21:21] i'd like to go through some stuff quickly before voting [21:21] not necessarily anything that changes the outcome, just want to talk about them [21:21] #subtopic Language support [21:21] what should our plan be? [21:22] it made me sad to drop a bunch of packs last cycle [21:22] all of locales, all of them [21:22] Ummm... [21:22] or at least the ones we were shipping before [21:22] how much does "all of them" take up? [21:22] i would like that anyone all over the world could put a xubuntu usb and get a sytem in their lang [21:22] GridCube, that will take awfully lot of space, no way it's fitting even in 1GB [21:22] bluesabre: that's what I'm thinking [21:22] I'd like to migrate to Kubuntu style langpacks for the LTS [21:22] bluesabre, "before" referring to 11.10 or sth like 9.10? [21:23] I was thinking 11.10 [21:23] bluesabre, there's a huge difference... :) [21:23] 6.10 would be a good benchmark [21:23] micahgmobile: What is that? [21:23] :D [21:23] hehe [21:23] We can probably do a DVD with all the languages [21:24] micahgmobile, but not in 1GB? [21:24] i mean, let me find a good comment [21:24] No, it would be closer to 2 GB [21:24] yowch [21:24] 23:13 bluesabre: at this point, most people have at least a 1 gb flash drive floating around somewhere [21:25] i think that's a words of a genius [21:25] that's also why i think limit matters [21:25] I think we should define core languages for the 1 GB image and create a 2 GB+ image for the rest [21:25] that leads to a question [21:26] does it make sense to d/l >2GB image to get your language on the CD, or would you just d/l the 1GB image and install a single langpack in addition? [21:26] pjotr hopes Dutch will be deemed a core language... :P [21:26] If the languages are the only difference, there would not have to be much additional testing beyond what we do for the standard iso (since it is also dvd-sized) [21:26] how would testing work for the 2G image? it's similar enough that I think the tests would be pretty much identical to the regular image, but release-wise I think we require doing a minimum number of tests on it directly [21:27] bluesabre, well that's not the point. consider english was not on the smaller image. would you d/l >2GB or just install from the 1GB image and add english support? [21:27] sometimes you don't have internet access [21:27] release-wise, we set ourselves how much testing any ISO needs [21:27] especially if you're targeting another "non-core" language [21:28] pjotr, we've usually went the "which is spoken the most" way, and if dutch fits that list... :) [21:28] isn't there any other way to get a langpack downloaded easily and get it installed to a system? [21:28] like, download a bunch of .debs and install then [21:28] *them [21:29] yes we could go for the 20 most readed languages [21:29] people should make mini sized ISO's that worked like software repositories [21:29] or like that [21:29] one per each language [21:29] just saying... [21:30] I'm not proposing anything, just supported other people's ideas :D [21:30] (like the custom slax isos?) [21:30] that could be burned on a CD as well, if you only had one USB stick. [21:30] i believe it's rather easy to create such a cd [21:30] http://www.slax.org/en/download.php [21:30] i think it only needs the .debs and some kind of index file [21:30] not that thats possible here, but its pretty [21:31] maybe I should make a iso localization gui :D [21:31] o: that would be awesome bluesabre [21:31] bluesabre, well that or simply have the base ISO and the localization ISO (if your language is not on the base ISO) [21:31] so anyway [21:32] micahgmobile, mrpouit: do you think it's fair to target what we had pre-12.04 language-wise for starters? [21:32] yeah it should be, I think [21:33] ok, good [21:33] let's go with that [21:33] #subtopic Bringing back Gnumeric and GIMP [21:33] i think it makes sense to reintroduce Gnumeric [21:33] (if we're not including LO, but let's talk about that later again) [21:34] Can we merge this with Libre Office question? [21:34] I have little time left... [21:34] no gimp [21:34] mrpouit, micahgmobile: your thoughts about LO? [21:34] i'm +-0 for GIMP. [21:34] Too big [21:34] Every Xubuntu user I know, has installed Libre Office. [21:34] yes, but its too big [21:35] A couple of hours ago, I've started a poll on the Dutch Ubuntu forum. With this question to the Xubuntu users there: do you install Libre Office in Xubuntu? [21:35] So far, eight responses: 7 yes, 1 no. [21:35] URL: http://forum.ubuntu-nl.org/algemeen-42/peiling-xubuntugebruikers-heb-je-er-libre-office-bij-geinstalleerd/ [21:35] You may need to use Google Translate to, well, translate it.... :-) [21:35] i assume there are some dependencies which add to the size [21:35] LO can go on the larger image if we do one [21:35] well one said "Nee" [21:35] knome: lol [21:35] must have been a knight [21:36] gnumeric +1 [21:36] gimp +1 [21:36] let's make quick polls [21:36] Knight to bishop 3 [21:36] lo pulls java [21:36] GridCube: not necessarily [21:37] that should have been a question [21:37] #vote astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 [21:37] Please vote on: astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 [21:37] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [21:37] hmm. [21:38] It would make Xubuntu out of the box a complete alternative to Ubuntu. A first impression which would even be better than it is now. [21:38] i wonder that meetingology expects us to vote on. [21:38] #voters [21:38] right. [21:38] on ourselfs [21:38] #endvote [21:38] Voting ended on: astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 [21:38] Votes for:0 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 [21:38] Deadlock, casting vote may be used [21:38] #voters astraljava bluesabre GridCube knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 Unit193 [21:38] Current voters: GridCube Unit193 astraljava bluesabre knome maddernick micahgmobile mrpouit ochosi pleia2 [21:38] #vote Gnumeric [21:38] Please vote on: Gnumeric [21:38] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [21:38] +1 [21:38] +1 received from knome [21:38] +1 [21:38] +1 [21:38] +1 received from GridCube [21:38] +1 received from pleia2 [21:38] that should do it. [21:38] +1 [21:38] +1 received from bluesabre [21:38] +0 [21:38] +0 received from micahgmobile [21:38] +0 [21:38] +0 received from Unit193 [21:39] that makes it at the worst 4-2 [21:39] #endvote [21:39] Voting ended on: Gnumeric [21:39] Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:2 [21:39] Motion carried [21:39] let's reintroduce gnumeric. [21:39] :) [21:39] #vote GIMP [21:39] Please vote on: GIMP [21:39] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [21:39] -1 [21:39] -1 received from GridCube [21:39] +1 [21:39] +1 received from pleia2 [21:39] +0 [21:39] +0 received from knome [21:39] +1 [21:39] +1 received from bluesabre [21:39] +1 [21:39] +1 received from micahgmobile [21:40] +1 [21:40] +1 received from mrpouit [21:40] +1 [21:40] +1 received from Unit193 [21:40] that makes it more + than - as well... [21:40] #endvote [21:40] Voting ended on: GIMP [21:40] Votes for:5 Votes against:1 Abstentions:1 [21:40] Motion carried [21:40] let's reintroduce gimp [21:40] :D [21:40] OK.... maybe you can reconsider LO for Raring +1.... Thanks for listening to me. I have to go now. Bye. [21:40] yay [21:40] pjotr: Bye, have a godo one. [21:40] Good as well. [21:40] bye pjotr :) have a nice day [21:40] so, does anybody have anything else about the ISO size than voting on the size itself? [21:41] seeya pjotr [21:41] pjotr, thanks! [21:41] wallpapers [21:41] Just my proposal of core languages [21:41] micahgmobile, sure [21:41] ? [21:41] thats something reviewrs tend to focus on [21:41] GridCube, we can fit those in if we go 1GB :) [21:42] :D i know [21:42] yeah, wallpapers or a xubuntu-wallpapers package (if there is not one already) [21:42] i don't think we need to vote on that [21:42] more themes? [21:42] GridCube, not if they're not good in quality [21:42] GridCube, but can be considered, also faenza-xfce [21:43] well, a few more wont hurt i say, i would like that reviewers have something fancy to review [21:43] beside our strenght that is stability [21:43] you know that that was the main complain i've heard out of them [21:43] GridCube, i think we agree with ochosi (with the artwork lead hat on) that quality matters more than quantity [21:43] yes [21:44] micahgmobile, so, uh, did you have a proposal? [21:44] i agree [21:44] micahgmobile, or were you referring to something you said before [21:44] the main wallpaper complaint I saw was that we have xubuntu-precise -> xubuntu-quantal [21:44] it's funny seeing them argue the difference between them [21:44] when its a symlink [21:44] heh [21:44] take that discussion to mrpouit [21:44] and make him mentor you to fix the names [21:45] What I said before [21:45] hehe [21:45] micahgmobile, i'll find that [21:45] 23:25 micahgmobile: I think we should define core languages for the 1 GB image and create a 2 GB+ image for the rest [21:45] that? [21:45] Yeah [21:46] ok, i think it makes sense to vote on the main ISO size first [21:46] :) [21:46] if we decide 1GB, then vote on that [21:46] agree? [21:47] agree [21:47] was asking from micahgmobile :P [21:47] micahgmobile, feel free to disagree, and we'll go the other way. :P [21:48] Ok, as long as we're under 10 core languages I think [21:48] ok [21:48] #vote ISO size bump: +1 for 1GB, +0 for any other size (please specify), -1 for keeping current CD size [21:48] Please vote on: ISO size bump: +1 for 1GB, +0 for any other size (please specify), -1 for keeping current CD size [21:48] Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me) [21:48] +1 [21:48] +1 received from pleia2 [21:48] +1 [21:48] +1 received from knome [21:48] +1 [21:48] +1 received from maddernick [21:48] +1 [21:48] +1 received from micahgmobile [21:48] +1 [21:48] +1 received from bluesabre [21:48] +1 [21:48] +1 received from mrpouit [21:49] +1 [21:49] +1 received from GridCube [21:49] +1 (would prefer 800-900, but close enough) [21:49] +1 (would prefer 800-900, but close enough) received from Unit193 [21:49] Unit193, want to get your vote recorded or more interested in cookies ATM? [21:49] knome: Cookies, of course. [21:49] Unit193, you didn't read the instructions! :P [21:49] oh well [21:49] #endvote [21:49] Voting ended on: ISO size bump: +1 for 1GB, +0 for any other size (please specify), -1 for keeping current CD size [21:49] Votes for:8 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0 [21:49] Motion carried [21:49] Sure I did. :) [21:49] didn't follow though [21:50] now then [21:50] another vote [21:50] just a sec as i type it [21:50] woot, lets get 3 media players in there now [21:50] :P [21:50] bluesabre, haha, let's get all, since we can't decide anyway [21:50] knome: Meh, it's close enough I may as well say yey. [21:50] Unit193, my intent is to have the 1 GB image on the range you specified [21:51] micahgmobile: Wonderful. But of course up to you. [21:51] woo lets remove gmb and put a good media player! wooo [21:51] what have I started? [21:51] #vote 2 ISO's: one "core" ISO (max. 1GB) and one ~2GB ISO with more languages. yay or nay? [21:51] Please vote on: