[01:06] <len-1304> good morning
[01:07] <smartboyhw> len-1304, good morning
[01:07] <len-1304> I'm playing with bios settings and sound.
[01:08] <smartboyhw> I'm getting heating up for my classroom session 12 hours later
[01:08] <len-1304> Turning hyperthreading off seems to improve low latency work.
[01:08] <smartboyhw> len-1304, oh does it?
[01:09] <len-1304> Ya, the context switching in hyperthreading takes time I guess.
[01:10] <len-1304> My machine might be slower over all, but I can run my audio card at 32 frames with just the odd xrun.
[01:10] <len-1304> (one in 30 minutes)
[01:11] <len-1304> Pulse doesn't like it :) But audacious still works through pulse and jack ok.
[01:12] <len-1304> gtreamer, however, can't keep up.
[01:13] <len-1304> But then, using pulse apps with jack doesn't need such low latency anyway. I just used it because it is a great stress test.
[06:33] <zequence_> len-1304: Cool. That's it, I really gotta start workign on -controls soon
[06:34] <zequence_> That stuff can be made switchable after al
[06:36] <zequence_> Or one might even consider hard coding that into -lowlatency
[06:37] <zequence> That would mean less processing power overall though, right?
[13:32] <smartboyhw> Hey scott-work doing my ISO tests session now
[13:43] <scott-work> smartboyhw: good morning and thank you :)
[13:43] <smartboyhw> scott-work, for what?:P
[13:43] <scott-work> for testing...and just being you ;)
[13:44] <smartboyhw> scott-work, LOL
[13:48] <zequence> scott-work: I redid the header again. What do you think? https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
[13:49] <smartboyhw> zequence, nice!!!!!:D
[13:49] <zequence> I'm thinking simple, simple now.
[13:50] <scott-work> wow zequence that is really nice!
[13:50] <scott-work> i also like how the images are links 
[13:50] <scott-work> as well
[13:50] <scott-work> and how the little bar (blue or orange) tells you where you are
[13:51] <scott-work> that' really awesome :)
[13:51] <zequence> Yeah, I thought that you need something to indicate your whereabouts, if you were to use the same design on both wikis
[13:52] <zequence> The idea of "help" versus "wiki" is a little strange to me.
[13:53] <smartboyhw> zequence, you should go and pursue a career in Art:P
[13:53] <zequence> I guess help.community.wiki is mostly used for housing straight forward documentation. We've been using help. also as a wiki, while we haven't been using the wiki for both users and des
[13:53] <zequence> devs*
[13:55] <zequence> What I'm saying is the roles of help.ubuntu.com and wiki.ubuntu.com as far as Ubuntu Studio is concerned are a little unclear to me
[13:56] <zequence> smartboyhw: I'm not an artist, but doing stuff for Ubuntu Studio, and not making it look good would feel a little shameful
[13:57] <smartboyhw> zequence, :)
[14:00] <zequence> I don't nessecarily feel there needs to be a strict line between user and dev, but the way it's organized now does put one pretty firmly. I'm a little pedantic with categorization and organization, to a point
[14:01] <zequence> Simplicity is always good. And to achieve that, it's important not to do any unessecary categorization
[14:02]  * smartboyhw suddenly thought zequence is a waste of not going into Human Resources
[14:02] <zequence> While playing with the header, I felt one could already cram most of the important stuff there
[14:02] <zequence> And that is what I like most about it
[14:03] <zequence> The thing about this layout is that the line between the two wikis is more or less erased
[14:04] <zequence> And you could just as well house everything in one place, if you wanted to
[14:04] <zequence> It's just that "user" and "dev" happen to have pages on different wikis
[14:05] <zequence> Some user stuff could just as well be in wiki.ubuntu.com
[14:05] <zequence> That's just some thoughts I've had about it
[14:09] <zequence> There are two factors that I think about doing this. 1) simplicity, easy orientation, and all important info is easy to find 2) Our wikis see very little community action, so we might as well organize more in the form of static documentation. This means we can design the wiki for the community, and not have the community design the wiki.
[14:09] <zequence> Or, the wikis, as there are two
[14:10] <zequence> Probably the only section that matters to individuals who want to contribute is a howto section, where they can add stuff.
[14:10] <zequence> I mean, contribute in the sense of adding to the wiki
[14:10] <zequence> The rest we should do for them
[14:11] <zequence> Or, from within our organization, so to speak
[14:13] <zequence> Because of the new header, the landing pages for both help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio and wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio need to be redone from scratch. Most of the stuff on those pages are already in the header
[14:14] <zequence> scott-work: Oh, that reminds me. Yesterday I was thinking about how to redo the wiki landing pages. And, I came to think about the mission statement
[14:14] <zequence> scott-work: I think it would be a good time to think about that now :)
[14:14] <zequence> scott-work: Do you have some ideas somewhere for it?
[14:29] <Len-nb> zequence, lowlatency and performance are generally at odds with each other.
[14:30] <scott-work> Len-nb: why do you say that?
[14:30] <Len-nb> In low latency performance is given up for being able to determine a fixed latency.
[14:30] <scott-work> zequence: i do have some ideas, rough ones. i have an important meeting and interview back-to-back starting in 1.5 hours, but this afternoon i would love go into more detail with you
[14:31] <scott-work> Len-nb: oh, oh. i wouldn't say they are at odds then, just that you can't maximize performance
[14:31] <zequence> scott-work: the insurance of making sure something arrives on time makes less come through. Throughput of -lowlatency is 10% less than on -generic
[14:31] <zequence> And Len-nb suggested some more variables eariler
[14:32] <zequence> That disabling hyperthreading would make low latency more reliable
[14:32] <zequence> That would probably have a much bigger effect, than what already exists
[14:33] <zequence> Interesting to find out how big
[14:33] <Len-nb> Using the mouse to drag an object across the screen is bad :)
[14:33] <Len-nb> But that is not some thing normally done while recording.
[14:34] <Len-nb> gotta go
[14:34] <zequence> Both hyper threading, and other processes should not affect realtime audio though, if the system is properly designed
[14:34] <scott-work> i understand the concept, but it just struck me as that "you can either have lowlatency but not performance" was being said. which is just my misunderstanding what he was saying
[14:35] <scott-work> i believe we get pretty damn good performance from lowlatency, myself :)
[14:35] <scott-work> but i understand you wouldn't want to use it for stock trading, let's say
[14:54] <len-1304> 9 hours at 32 frames with no xruns. I was never able to do that before
[14:55] <len-1304> scott-work, yes there is a trade of of performace for latency, but it is not big.
[14:56] <len-1304> It is very hard to tell because at a lower latency, more cpu is used to deal with the audio too.
[14:57] <len-1304> The PA-jack bridge is a great test tool for this as pa takes more cpu than jack and brings out the effect
[18:48] <zequence> scott-work: do you have time? Just let me know when would be a good time. 
[20:45] <scott-work> zequence: i think i'm good now if you want to discuss things :)
[21:13] <zequence> scott-work: Ok, great
[21:13] <zequence> Oh, time flies
[21:13] <zequence> I was just getting something to eat.
[21:15] <scott-work> i'm here for another hour or so, go get something to eat
[21:15] <zequence> scott-work: No, sorry. I meant, I just ate
[21:15] <zequence> scott-work: I've started a page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/MissionStatement
[21:16] <zequence> Was just looking at what else to put in there for material
[21:16] <zequence> Putting in the stuff from the blueprint
[21:17] <scott-work> zequence: do you think ubuntu studio should provide a basic desktop functionality?
[21:18] <zequence> scott-work: That's ubuntustudio-desktop more or less
[21:19] <zequence> My list is more intended for the developer view of things. I think if we write something up for users, or just anyone, it doesn't need to be as formal. Also, my list was a suggestion to begin with
[21:20] <scott-work> sorry, that question didn't come out as i intended
[21:21] <scott-work> i was wondering if that it being a minimal pedestrian desktop usage should be included
[21:21] <zequence> I'd like it if we after agreeing on what Ubuntu Studio is, or should be doing, that we condense that into as few words as possible. Something almost slogan like. And then, also, keep a more formal page with a more in depth description of what that is
[21:22] <zequence> scott-work: Sorry, I seem to not understand :)
[21:23] <scott-work> no, no. it was my fault
[21:23] <scott-work> i'm wondering if we should also mention that we are constrained within the ubuntu ecosphere...meaning there will be certain application that might never be included by default
[21:23] <zequence> I added your list of things, if you didn't refresh yet, btw
[21:25] <zequence> I guess we are constrained for two reasons. One being legal. The other, possibly, being that we prefer FLOSS over non FLOSS, and therefore, everything is FLOSS
[21:25] <zequence> Or, what kind of applications do you mean?
[21:26] <scott-work> i forget the name, but i believe it was a sampler that has a funny license issue with it
[21:27] <zequence> Performance is important, so we might constrain some things because of that
[21:27] <scott-work> linux sampler?
[21:27] <zequence> linux-sampler is not in any of the distros
[21:27] <zequence> Yeah, there are a couple. 
[21:27] <zequence> cinerella too
[21:27] <zequence> But, I think it might be possible to get linux-sampler into the repos though
[21:28] <scott-work> cinerella used to be in the repos didn't it? that is suprising that it isn't in there anymore. but not that i keep current with the repos though
[21:29] <zequence> Perhaps harder to get it on a ISO. But, there are non-free things in the kernel, so why not?
[21:29] <zequence> No, I don't think cinerella has ever been in any of the repos. Only PPA, and similar external repos
[21:30] <zequence> I might be wrong
[21:31] <zequence> So, we should mention that the applications we offer are official Ubuntu packages - not a separate thing. And, that most of them come directly from Debian
[21:32] <zequence> I had an idea about keeping a "What is Ubuntu Studio" page, where things like that would be clarified
[21:37] <zequence> For a short version, it would be enough just to say: Ubuntu Studio is an official flavor of Ubuntu. For a long version, one can explain also the relationship with Debian, and why not other Ubuntu derivatives, like Mint and KX
[21:39] <zequence> FLOSS, Ubuntu, the whole licensing issue..
[21:41] <scott-work> zequence: what about "provide complete multimedia workflows of FLOSS applications for the beginners and professional content creator"
[21:42] <zequence> scott-work: Ok, so here's another aspect too. We want to target both beginners and pros
[21:42] <scott-work> for a missions statement it's a little clunky, but succinct, and i think covers the majority of what we need to consider
[21:43] <scott-work> we could also prepend "using ubuntu official repositories, provide...."
[21:43] <scott-work> i really hope we can leverage ttoine's experience so that we can prepare real documentation for a pro studio
[21:45] <zequence> I'm know myself around a recording studio, and so does holstein. All of us do a little bit different kinds of music, but I feel pretty confident on that area
[21:46] <zequence> I'm more worried about the other areas. But that's mostly cause I don't know them myself at all, or very little
[21:47] <zequence> Linux is actually quite ok for pro audio. It's the semi pro field that is a little worse. People who like the software to do the job for them
[21:47] <zequence> Things are less good looking, etc
[21:50] <zequence> A sound engineer can do a lot with raw tools, if needed, while a "beginner" might get things sounding ok with good presets
[21:51] <zequence> Anyway, I added what's been said so far to the wiki page, so please refresh
[21:51] <zequence> A little chaotic
[21:53] <scott-work> agreed. i have felt the same way and think i even made a blog post with a similar expression
[21:54] <zequence> I think another thing that I would like Ubuntu Studio to do is to really become the centre point of Linux Floss multimedia. 
[21:54] <scott-work> give linux to a platinum record producer and a PT setup with all the plugins and i expect that you will get far different results from the two
[21:56] <zequence> What I mean by that is, we are at the forefront, technology wise, but also a source for information
[21:58] <zequence> We provide news, and link to others. We know the developers. We know the community. We branch out everywhere
[21:59] <zequence> Someone who is new to Linux multimedia should be able to find all the branches through us
[22:01] <scott-work> zequence: i need to go, i still have to get stuff for the kids before i get home. see everyone tomorrow