[03:23] Hi, I have worked in c++ and I wish to contribute to this project but not really sure where to start. Could any of you please help? === francisco is now known as Guest60673 [18:03] bobweaver, CrestedNewt meeting time? [18:03] woops I forgot about that joining channel now [19:00] so tgm4883 again [19:00] er sorry mhall119 [19:01] so I went to will and Jim and said hey I know that you all can not talk to me about things that are happening in the uture but if you see soething just email me saying "that is not a good idea " [19:01] * tgm4883 wonders if we should try to work some of these issues out [19:01] I get emails that tell me what is going on [19:01] brb phone [19:01] OK, there are many issues here. I think that it's time to get them in the open, seeing that this is an OPEN source project :D [19:03] these are the type of emails that I get [19:03] Anyway... remember at UDS we had a quick conversation outside during a smoke break. We agreed that if I could give you any direction about where to focus your efforts that I'd give you a heads-up and that you wouldn't ask any questions for the time being.... well, guess what.... [19:03] mhall119, bobweaver had it working in Unity 3D but there were changes to something - exactly what I can't remember as it was above my 'pay grade' :D that is why he went back to 2D [19:04] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcepB1E1lX0 [19:04] unity 3d ^^ [19:04] formfactor tv [19:04] everyone hated it [19:05] then libunity got changed and it would not work [19:05] I guess I am just not good at working with others [19:05] Listen I like to program [19:05] it is FUN [19:06] but I only like to program things that are fun [19:06] If something puts me into tears then I am not going to do it unless I am getting paid to [19:06] For this project to work, bobweaver needs some form of direction from canonical. Be that in the form of a NDA but at least he then has direction and is not wasting his time on re-doing work [19:06] NDA = Non Disclosure Agreement [19:06] and I dont even think that I would take a job that makes me cry all the time [19:07] If canonical wants Ubuntu TV on unity 3d they can pay me [19:07] bottom line [19:07] and on top of that I dont think that I would take the job [19:08] So this is what I am going to do [19:08] bobweaver - hang fire for a min before you say something you may regret - ok? [19:09] I am going to give it a weekend to cool down and then I will make emails to send out . If things do not go right then so be it [19:09] sorry CrestedNewt you are right [19:09] But I am done wasting all my time [19:09] Is there a problem? [19:09] You have created what looks like something special. [19:09] jhodapp, lol [19:09] jhodapp, I can fill you in if you want [19:10] jhodapp - yes - there are problems in the community with those working on TV - bobweaver is talking of quitting [19:10] bobweaver: we've told you all that we know about the direction Unity is taking [19:10] tgm4883, sure [19:10] "we want app developers" ok I will make app "what you changed the design every 4 hours " how can a programmer keep up with that [19:10] jhodapp, pm? [19:10] the fact that we don't know more is frustrating to all of us [19:10] tgm4883, yep [19:10] tgm4883, in channel please [19:10] ok [19:10] it invols all of us [19:10] bobweaver, not keeping anything secret, I just didn't want to clog any more conversation that was taking place [19:11] CrestedNewt, ah ok [19:11] I like to call a shovel a shovel :D [19:11] tgm4883, +1 I think that it is good that we are talking about this [19:12] jhodapp, so we just had the weekly meeting. It's starting to become increasingly apparent that the canonical is making all the rules, and bobweaver is doing all the work (i'm just doing scope stuff) [19:12] bobweaver: you know the situation as well as jhodapp and I know it, you know that we've been struggling to get answers for you and to provide you with the best direction available [19:12] I just want to say that I am not mad if it comes across like that blame dyslisica and keyboards :) [19:12] jhodapp, while this isn't necessarily an issue, things keep changing on bobweaver and he can't get a straight answer from anyone for direction [19:12] tgm4883: things have been changing on everybody, inside and outside of Canonical [19:13] mhall119, yea, but the people inside of canonical get to know about it [19:13] we let you guys know about the changes as soon as we can, but we're not the ones making them [19:13] bobweaver, yes, what mhall119 just said is very much the reality [19:13] tgm4883, also I would like to add that I am not going to do 3d it is done tell people to use it [19:13] again not mad stupid keyboards lol [19:13] OK guys, I have a business background. Let me put it in simple terms. Canonical is based in London UK. Someone there must have accountability for this project there. Who is this person and can I talk to them to get bobweaver the help he needs? [19:13] tgm4883: we don't usually know about it inside of canonical [19:14] CrestedNewt: Canonical staff are all over the world [19:14] I Love to program..... in some langs :) [19:14] jhodapp, mhall119 in that case, we shouldn't be using Unity [19:14] tgm4883, and everyone please think about the phone [19:14] is the phone using unity ? [19:14] jhodapp, mhall119 we should never have picked a platform that was such an unstable moving target [19:14] tgm4883: Canonical wants a Unity that will work on TV, that's what our goal is for this project [19:14] tgm4883, well you should if you care about a converged device [19:15] mhall119, what is Unity ? [19:15] think about that [19:15] mhall119, jhodapp unless canonical start putting resources toward the project, I don't care what canonical wants [19:15] bobweaver: it's a set of APIs and UI/UX principles [19:15] mhall119, jhodapp which sucks, because I honestly like Unity [19:15] Unity = wat we aren't at the moment :D but we will get there :D [19:15] tgm4883, yeah I know, I wish we could get resources as well [19:15] (setting aside the obvious patent violation) [19:15] tgm4883: that's fine, it's a reasonable position for you to have, if your goals don't line up then it's a shame, but no hard feelings [19:16] we don't want the community to be free labor [19:16] mhall119, jhodapp I think if your goals don't line up then we have a problem here. [19:16] if you have the same end-goal in mind as us, we want to work togther [19:16] * bobweaver dosent care what canonical thinks is a good idea. He cares about having a good working tv at home/ If other want to use Ubuntu tv from now on Out I am telling them to use it from 3d [19:16] mhall119, that is just the thing, you want to work together, but you can't [19:17] the goal is to have on Unity 3d then I am not porting to phone as "Ubuntu TV " [19:17] that can be done via 3d [19:17] we will see about hardware sccel on that [19:17] accell * [19:17] rotflol [19:18] also if that is the case then I step aside and other can do the work of porting to NUX as they are bangging on the door to help [19:19] mhall119, jhodapp my understanding from the last year of discussing Ubuntu TV with you guys is that everything is "Nux All the Unity Things", then phone comes out in qml? [19:19] because NUX can not be on phones [19:19] lets be honest here [19:19] tgm4883, yes, what bobweaver said [19:19] Nux is a great tool [19:20] mhall119, correct me if I am wrong.... Linux is all about 'Community' providing solutions and free to all. If the flavour of Linux is controlled and changes so much, that does not help the 'Community' especially when those changes can't be told to others outside the Illuminati which affects the 'communities' work. [19:20] mhall119, jhodapp keep in mind, I'm only doing the scopes stuff, and that works in any unity, so I'm probably one of the more impartial people here as I don't have a lot of work invested in something that is getting scraped [19:20] tgm4883: we were being told, internally, to "Nux all the Unity Things" [19:20] but it is def not for accell hardware [19:20] mhall119, so how did phone get away with it? [19:20] also Nux could be ported to QML [19:20] as a plugin [19:21] this would be real hard and pointless [19:21] you guys make it sound like we have some secret cabal, deciding on changes and never telling you, but I promise we're just as suprised and frustrated by the changes as you are [19:21] bobweaver, no, we're not doing that [19:21] as qt rendering system is well Honest here better [19:21] mhall119, and then what is the future of phone? it seems that "Unity" is becoming less of a unified codebase and more of a unified UI [19:21] tgm4883: I don't know the details, but I do know that the original plan for the Phone shell was to do it in Nux [19:21] again NUX is a great tool [19:21] but If I am to go out side to change the oil on my GF car I am not using a hammer [19:22] I need a oil wrench some gloves aka the right tools [19:22] tgm4883, yeah, NUX didn't meat the requirements, so at least for the phone, we're not using it [19:22] mhall119, jhodapp while I know that you guys do know stuff you can't tell us, trust me, I don't think you have some secret cabal. The fact that you, mhall119, the lasian between community Ubuntu TV and canonical has secrets kept from him is a very bad thing [19:22] also with qx11info comming back tp qt5 that opens up all sorts of cool dors [19:23] doors * [19:23] tgm4883: I don't have any secrets about this [19:23] tgm4883, jhodapp maybe We should talk about the convo we had at UDS [19:23] mhall119, thats exactly my point. You have secrets being kept from you [19:23] bobweaver knows as much about the phone/tv/unity plans as I do [19:23] mhall119 - no he said that secrets are being kept from you as liason [19:24] about if I am doing something that is beeing worked on you all send me email saying that is not a good idea [19:24] tgm4883: nobody knows, it hasn't been decided yet what's going to happen, we're *all* waiting on a decision to be made [19:24] this is good because it stops us and also doesent give away secerts [19:24] secrets aren't being kept from me [19:24] and secrets aren't being kept form bobweaver [19:24] we just plan don't know [19:24] mhall119, I feel you're talking about Ubuntu TV there, when I'm hearing the issues are not with Ubuntu, but actually with Unity [19:24] tgm4883: the Unity team doesn't know [19:25] there's a lot of talk but no decisions have been made [19:25] mhall119, the unity team doesn't know when they do Unity changes? [19:25] that's not very good [19:25] they don't know which Unity changes they're going to have to make until they're told to make them [19:25] tgm4883, which is no different than any company [19:25] tgm4883, please listen to me on this one I think that in 14.01 where are going to see massive changes to the dash [19:25] So the question is - who is it that makes that decision for the change? [19:26] good question CrestedNewt [19:26] jhodapp, most companies don't have the community do all the work [19:26] CrestedNewt: someone very high up, usually Mark and his immediate management team [19:26] tgm4883, true, though most companies don't interface with communities at all [19:27] mhall119, mark! That guy isn't even CEO :P [19:27] jhodapp - I was problem and Change manager, Europe for a large oil company. I know what it is like and transparency is what provided the best solutions [19:27] :) [19:27] mhall119, jhodapp ok, so how about this. What should bobweaver do. [19:27] CrestedNewt, absolutely, I totally believe in transparency [19:28] jhodapp, I have meet with CrestedNewt and CrestedNewt dont take this the wrong way but I did check him out his is legit [19:28] meaning looking at his past [19:28] no offence taken - transparency [19:29] bobweaver, my transparency or CrestedNewt's? [19:29] mine :D [19:29] * bobweaver is lost lol [19:29] bobweaver, you shouldn't be, everything is transparent ;) [19:29] tgm4883: I'd suggest that bobweaver wait until the 21st and then look at the phone code [19:29] bobweaver, nevermind, I just didn't understand your statement [19:29] lol guys - at least I'm starting to get a smile back on my face [19:30] tgm4883, I completely agree [19:30] tgm4883, that is the platform going forward [19:30] and PHONE CAN NOT RUN NUX [19:30] * tgm4883 jots that down [19:31] sorry about that caps [19:31] mhall119, jhodapp so are we going to meet the 14.04 goal set by Mark? [19:31] bobweaver, indeed, it's not Nux based at all [19:31] tgm4883, I believe so [19:31] I need to look at why my light is not turning on when caps is onn [19:31] mhall119, jhodapp or are we going to have to just say that goal was met by Mythbuntu [19:32] tgm4883, which goal specifically? [19:32] jhodapp, I believe the goal was "ubuntu running on tv's" [19:32] jhodapp, it was during the keynote [19:33] tgm4883: that can mean many things [19:33] jhodapp, mhall119 tgm4883 CrestedNewt you all are awesome [19:33] the whole "ubuntu on tv's tablets phones etc" [19:33] ubuntu-core, the kernel and foundation stuff, can already run on TVs [19:33] Unity can too, but it doesn't work well in the desktop configuration [19:33] jhodapp, esp for taking time to talk about this with the community [19:33] mhall119, that is not true [19:34] thanks bobweaver, you're great for wanting to help out too and sticking with it [19:34] most tv are still amel like same as pi [19:34] mhall119, I'd really hope that mark's keynote wasn't meant to be completed via some technicality [19:34] which I dont have the hardware so I can not test [19:34] I'm pretty sure compiz can run on arm [19:34] mhall119, again right tools for right job [19:35] hardware acell is not that easy [19:35] ask anyone at linaro [19:35] tgm4883: what Mark intends and what we can acheive are not always the same thing [19:35] If canonical plain is to use 3d then let it be [19:35] bobweaver: I've seen Unity 3d running on Linaro's boards, they used them for the hall-monitors at UDS [19:35] yeah and they over heat [19:36] and they run slow [19:36] I didn't say it was great :) [19:36] again Not putting it down [19:36] what I am trying to say is that there are the right tools or in this case right toolkits for jobs [19:36] so this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to continue working on my unity scopes. I'm also going to finish the Mythtv backend quick start guide. I'll do both of those because any work I do on them can be used on the desktop unity [19:37] unfortunately, work that bobweaver does isn't the same [19:37] if I am going to fix leakey roof I do not want to use a car [19:37] though I want a car in my tools it helps me get to the job [19:37] but I am not going to drive it up on the roof [19:38] it would fail [19:38] that would be one big holw [19:38] hole [19:38] * bobweaver goes to google to look for pics of cars in roofs [19:38] I was talking to a friend of mine this evening and he said that Texas Instruments have some fantastic A9 boards out there that run 'cool' - he should know about these things as he has an electronics company creating embedded applications for welding and sewage monitoring [19:39] http://thewildones.faketrix.com/content/pictures/page-7/large/car-crashes-into-house-roof.jpg [19:39] :D [19:39] that is not how to fix a roof [19:40] * popey is glad he doesn't live there [19:40] lol [19:40] popey, do you need that person to fix your roof ? [19:40] heh [19:40] even popey doesn't know what' going to happen with Unity [19:40] I would not trust tools like that [19:40] if popey doesn't know, it's not knowable [19:40] mhall119, of course not, he'd just blab it on UUPC [19:40] hey bobweaver I can only echo what the guys have said. some of the architectural decisions are made by the people involved, and nobody finds out until the decision has been made [19:41] * tgm4883 blames popey for being british [19:41] some of those processes take w a y too long [19:41] pip pip tgm4883 ! [19:41] OI!! I resemble that remark tgm4883 [19:41] correct popey [19:41] popey: should have stuck to playing TF2 today :P [19:41] and sometimes we screw it up [19:41] speaking of british, isn't it tea time? [19:41] sometimes we end up making the wrong decision [19:41] "we" as in "canonical" [19:41] yep - my dinner is in the oven and family are waiting for me to finish with this [19:41] and have to figure out a way to work forwards without taking 3 steps back [19:41] and it's not easy [19:42] "we" as in "the british" FTFY ;) [19:42] especially when we have the steady march of releases every 6 months [19:42] and a target of 200 million devices by 2014 [19:42] oh and run ubuntu on everything pls [19:42] popey, would you be willing to meet up with CrestedNewt in person at the office ? [19:42] if American TV has taught me anything, it's that someone with a British accent is always right [19:42] sorry popey, daviey hasn't been around that much and I've got pent up anti-british remarks to make [19:42] bobweaver: not sure that would help anything [19:42] tgm4883: i went out for lunch in a real english pub with him recently. [19:42] or evil [19:43] he wore a flat cap and everything [19:43] or both [19:43] he was even in the pub before it opened! [19:43] popey, a real english pub? [19:43] yes [19:43] popey, are there fake ones? [19:43] popey: but was he out before it closed? [19:43] there are [19:43] yes, he even bought beer! [19:43] * popey falls over [19:43] * tgm4883 wonders what a fake english pup entails [19:43] no, wait, hang on, I bought it [19:43] bah [19:43] tgm4883: bud light I suspect [19:44] mhall119, ah [19:44] "Warm, flat and cloudy" [19:44] popey, if you are ever up my way near Stansted, give me a shout and I'll take you to one or two pubs :D [19:44] heh [19:44] mhall119, cause 'Merica [19:44] damn right [19:44] see, now I'm smiling again, thanks guys [19:44] cool well can we al get over the whole Unity 3d thing now ? [19:44] I'd say as soon as the code is dropped for Ubuntu phone next week.. we should discuss this further [19:45] bobweaver: not just yet, but I hope we can someday [19:45] that has been the plain for me popey [19:45] wise [19:45] popey, no, I think we should discuss fake english pubs now! [19:45] oh okay. [19:45] Opressive yanks.. [19:45] :þ [19:45] Sceptic Tanks :D [19:45] tgm4883: or are you canadian? [19:45] popey, don't make us come spread our freedom to you [19:45] mhall119, what I mean is if you want to tell people to use it on Unity 3d then feel free [19:45] popey, 'Merica [19:45] daddy no [19:45] fsck yeah! [19:45] not sure how that would work with peoples thoughts on Ubuntu TV [19:46] well seeing that I'm married to a longhorn .... [19:46] where everything is right, and we use the imperial system [19:47] OK guys, so nothing is going to happen until the phone OS is out - correct? [19:47] Seems like a prudent thing to do [19:47] CrestedNewt: we're hoping to have some answers about Unity starting then [19:47] CrestedNewt, nothing I do matters in regards to what the phone code says [19:47] Given that's actually the code which the phone runs. [19:47] it doesn't necessarily mean we'll *have* more answers then [19:47] tgm4883: too many words [19:48] "< tgm4883> CrestedNewt, nothing I do matters" [19:48] lol [19:48] ☺ [19:48] popey, no, I said I was from 'Merica, not Canada [19:48] er everytime well almost every time I take a phone call I lose connection either that Or popey keeps on kicking me [19:48] < muhahah [19:48] no, not me [19:48] how to do ghost thing in IRC [19:48] popey, you should know that, based on my distinct lack of appologizing for anything [19:48] popey shuts down all of the things [19:48] \o/ shut it down [19:49] says that I am on line [19:49] Jim_Lahey: /msg nickserv ghost bobweaver [19:49] Jim_Lahey, upgrade from your 56k modem? [19:49] Jim_Lahey: I bet you have a cordless phone, don't you? [19:49] DECT? [19:49] same frequency as wifi innit [19:49] guv'nor [19:50] Wooden DECT :D === Jim_Lahey is now known as bobweaver [19:50] popey, so behind the queen and prince william, how many people away are you from the throne? [19:50] thansk all [19:50] about 8 feet [19:50] tgm4883, wait you are going to give me Money ! [19:50] good job bobweaver - keep the faith!! Will hangout at some stage over the weekend [19:50] oh, not that throne [19:51] that is great [19:51] I love money [19:51] * tgm4883 is disturbed that popey hangs out in the royal bathroom [19:51] you can send it to care of mr awesome router blah blah blah :) [19:51] popey IS the royal bathroom [19:51] bobweaver: I did tell you to setup an amazon wishlist ☺ [19:51] (then make it pop up every time someone turns on their TV) [19:52] that's what we do, right? [19:52] Oh I did I need to post that [19:52] :) [19:52] it has things like a pony and a castle .. a white one and little burgers on it [19:53] ok - change of tack here once again.... Oscar Pestorious has pleaded guilty today. His lawyer said that he didn't have a leg to stand on - BOOM BOOM!! [19:53] * bobweaver wants white castle in upstate NY [19:53] mhall119, yeah phone is cordless (from thrift store ) [19:54] bobweaver: I bet it uses the same frequency as your wifi [19:54] I had that issue a while back, took me months to figure it out [19:54] yeah I should get a new one like a 1980-70s phone or make one [19:54] it happens right after I hang up [19:55] mhall119, was it like that for you also ? [19:55] after hangup ? [19:55] bobweaver: it happened as soon as I picked up the call for me [19:56] I ended up changing the frequency setting on my AP [19:56] also mhall119 do you think that me and you and david plantilla or what ever his name is could sit down and talk apps for phone [19:56] and design mainly design part [19:56] I have some great ideas that I think could help developers [19:56] what i he dpm ? [19:56] planella [19:56] nick that is ^^ [19:57] bobweaver: we've got wiki pages for posting links to designs [19:57] Kevin Wright is leading the development effort around the core apps [19:57] yeah but they keep changeing ever 4 hours ! [19:57] bobweaver: it's open submission, there was never a "chosen" design to change [19:57] and if people could use different tools it would make devs life al9ot better [19:58] maybe we can talk about that ? [19:58] that is what I would like to talk about [19:58] about the tools? [19:58] tieing in developers with designers [19:58] making a stream [19:58] ideas that I was thinking about [19:58] I seen that there is rss right for when it is changed [19:59] Laters all - gtg have dinner. [19:59] the stream right now is to use Balsamiq, which lets us host many revisions and give comments to the designer [19:59] mhall119, like if we look at weather app [19:59] I started making that 2 days ago [19:59] I am getting close to done [20:00] but I can not find the design's that I was using before :/ [20:00] I think that they got changed ? [20:00] maybe this is my fault because I did not contact designer [20:00] maybe we can make a thing that has button to contact designer [20:00] you know to work togeather [20:00] bobweaver: the Canonical design team just posted some, I added them to the wiki page [20:01] Yeah but I dont want to re-design my full app [20:01] you can browse all the balsamiq ones here: https://ubuntu.mybalsamiq.com/projects/ubuntuphonecoreapps/grid [20:01] that would be point less [20:01] see that means that I just spent 2 days working on something to change the full thing [20:01] that is frustating fro devs [20:01] I dont care my self [20:02] but I cuuld see how someone would walk away after something like that [20:02] you don't have to change anything, people can use your app how it is if they want to [20:02] that is stupid [20:02] wrong words [20:02] dang keyboard [20:03] what I mean is if canonical has and wants community to make apps for phone then there should be things like this person is doing it also work with him [20:03] not talking about making my own app [20:03] bobweaver: we have that here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CoreApps/Weather [20:03] add links to your code and screenshots [20:03] I want to make Ubuntu Better that makes me better I do not need to make only me better [20:03] so the other contributors know about it [20:04] I need upload right [20:04] to the wiki? [20:04] I have branch want it [20:04] you should haveit [20:04] no to the launchpad team [20:04] you can push your bzr branch to Launchpad [20:04] maybe Not it says I do not have permission [20:04] bzr push lp:~/ubuntu-weather-app/ [20:04] or do I need to push to junk and propose medge [20:05] not to junk, you should use the URL above [20:05] cool so like the Ubuntu TV one [20:05] << n00b [20:05] yeah, all Launchpad projects work this way [20:05] alright next quetion : [20:05] do you know of any copywrite tools for gpl [20:06] like that add to the top of each page ? [20:06] what kind of tools? [20:06] oh, no, I usually just include a COPYING file in the branch root [20:06] it is a pain in the a%% to go into each one and add the canonical branding licence [20:06] let me show you a example [20:07] http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~josephjamesmills/u2t/dailybuilds/view/head:/shell/common/PictureGlowButton.qml [20:08] see how I did that even though I wrote that code [20:08] I was just copy and pasteing all files pain the the but [20:08] I was going to make sed script but did not know if tools are out there [20:08] Or if that is the prefereed way that canonical likes to see things [20:08] there might be, it's likely even, but I don't know of any [20:09] I mean if it is a Core app then I should include canonicals name in file [20:09] << lost [20:09] if there's a preferred way, it would be what Debian prefers [20:09] no, if it's not Canonical's code, it's not copyrighted to us [20:09]