[00:28] <xnox> penguin42: 12.04.2 still ships unity-2d (for non-accel) and unity-3d
[00:28] <xnox> penguin42: unless you are not asking about llvm-pipe, then ignore me.
[00:30] <penguin42> xnox: Well what I was curious about was whether it included llvm-pipe and if it did whether unity-3d would try and work
[00:34] <xnox> penguin42: no. unity was not part of the backport.
[00:37] <penguin42> xnox: Well it wasn't unity I asked about; it was llvm-pipe - and I'm not sure where that sits, but it ain't unity
[00:37] <xnox> penguin42: llvmpipe backend for unity is not part of the backport and that does need new unity.
[00:38] <penguin42> ok
[08:13] <dwatkins> morning all
[08:13]  * dwatkins saw the sun rise on the way to work today, which made it feel less like it's winter
[08:22] <knightwise> whaw
[08:23] <knightwise> looks like the real deal with that meterorite in russia
[08:52] <kvarley> I've already installed steam manually via a deb, will it mess anything up if I just install it from the software centre too?
[09:00] <popey> nah
[09:00] <popey> YMMV ☺
[09:01] <popey> I wouldn't bother
[09:01] <popey> Steam self-updates
[09:02] <kvarley> popey: I was more thinking for Canonical's stats :) but I guess Valve has stats on linux users anyway
[09:02] <popey> heh
[09:02] <popey> i dont think it will make much difference
[09:03] <kvarley> This year has got off to an amazing start
[09:03] <popey> yes, yes it has
[09:03] <popey> we've gone from 25 games in steam back in november to 100
[09:04] <kvarley> The publicity surrounding Valve's Piston project is great for Linux too
[09:04] <kvarley> I'm still amazed by the selection of games available in such a short amount of time
[09:05] <knightwise> Counter strike source ! :)
[09:05] <knightwise> Heeehee !
[09:06] <kvarley> knightwise: Yeah, that is an awesome game. If/When CS:GO comes I'll finally be able to convince a few more of my friends to switch
[09:10] <knightwise> got a laptop from work this week
[09:11] <knightwise> 15 inch clunker with an ATI card
[09:11] <knightwise> dualbooted it into linux :)
[09:11] <knightwise> will be using it as my game machine for the occasional alien arena and steam :)
[09:14] <jacobw> morning
[09:14] <jacobw> knightwise: steam \o/
[09:18] <andylockran> morning all
[09:19] <knightwise> Steam in russia is featuring a new game  http://www.classicgamesarcade.com/game/21650/missile-strike.html
[09:28] <kvarley> lol
[09:31] <JamesTait> Happy Friday, everyone! :-D
[09:31] <Laney> it IS happy
[09:32]  * Laney plays a guitar riff in celebration
[09:33] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[09:33] <JamesTait> Woke up this morning (duh-duh-duh-duh-duh), thought it was Saturday.
[09:33] <czajkowski> aloha
[09:33] <JamesTait> brobostigon, czajkowski: o/
[09:34] <brobostigon> morning JamesTait
[09:35] <knightwise> Its not only the end of the week .. in russia its like the end of the world !
[09:36] <andylockran> is there a tool for adding custom resolutions to monitors?
[09:37]  * dwatkins is reminded of the days of manually editing the XFree86 config file
[09:42] <zleap> hi ,   how do i switch to vga output,  tried google and nothing seems helpful
[09:42] <zleap> using del 1ov,  vga connected up
[09:44] <AlanBell> morning all
[09:45] <andylockran> I've just had to use xrandr to set resolution on an external monitor :s
[09:45] <andylockran> morning AlanBell
[09:45] <AlanBell> I have an idea for an email service thing, not sure if it exists
[09:45] <popey> zleap: what are you running on it?
[09:45] <popey> andylockran: yeah, I've used xrandr for adding resolutions before, never found a tool for it
[09:45] <AlanBell> what I want is a website where I can get an inbound email address that I can send assorted automated emails
[09:46] <zleap> lubuntu 12.04
[09:46] <popey> no idea, ask in #lubuntu ?
[09:46] <zleap> ok
[09:46] <AlanBell> I tell it what emails to expect, and what words to look out for in them, like "at 2 AM every day you should expect an email from this address with the subject containing 'Success'"
[09:46] <popey> nice idea AlanBell
[09:46] <popey> it could report for you when it doesn't get them too
[09:47] <zleap> what would i use in standard ubuntu?
[09:47] <AlanBell> and then if it doesn't get them it sends me a mail
[09:47] <popey> zleap: there is a displays option in system settings
[09:47] <AlanBell> then I don't have to care about backup emails not happening, or failing or cronjobs or whatever
[09:47] <AlanBell> I only need to care if they don't turn up or fail
[09:48] <AlanBell> does such a thing exist? Could I make squillions by building it?
[09:49] <popey> it could be a valuable service, yes
[09:49] <popey> subscription based, people would subscribe and then forget it
[09:49] <popey> but continue paying
[09:50] <andylockran> #storyofmybankaccount
[09:50] <AlanBell> yeah, I would pay for it I think
[09:50] <AlanBell> and I would want it as SaaS rather than in house probably
[09:50] <AlanBell> so it isn't dependent on the infrastructure it is monitoring
[09:50] <popey> yes
[10:10] <diplo_> Morning all
[10:12] <diplo> AlanBell: Isn't that the sort of thing that Monitoring services like Nagios do though, check backups or you could use to check an email was sent etc
[10:13] <AlanBell> diplo: dunno, I want to check that an email *wasn't* sent
[10:14] <AlanBell> or the expected email was received but the last word in the body isn't "Done"
[10:17] <DJones> Has anybody here installed LibreOffice 4 on 12.04 yet, if so, did you use a ppas or manually install it
[10:18] <diplo> Could check the logs to see if an email was sent to a particular host at a certain timee
[10:24] <AlanBell> diplo: I don't want to, I want to do less work not more!
[10:25] <AlanBell> so I have from various systems emails that I expect to get every day, I can send them to different mailboxes and check 30 or so emails a day to see if any failed, or if any didn't arrive
[10:26] <AlanBell> but I am horrifically lazy, and don't want to do that
[10:26] <AlanBell> I want a computer to tell me if I didn't get one of 30 emails
[10:26] <AlanBell> and not to bother me about the 29 successfull things I don't have to care about
[10:40] <daubers> AlanBell: Sounds like you need nagios or something really. Quick flick in the morning to see if you have any red lights then ignore
[10:40] <AlanBell> daubers: can that get emails from systems it can't see other ways?
[10:40] <jpds> "If you're not monitoring it, you're not managing it".
[10:41] <daubers> AlanBell: I think it's all scrpt based, so probably
[10:45] <popey> for czajkowski http://imgur.com/gallery/Fz7h1Ni
[10:45] <popey> AlanBell: you can write scripts to do pretty much anything
[10:45] <popey> i wrote a nagios script to poll SAP systems and give me lights if stuff was on/off
[10:46] <AlanBell> I guess one could write a nagios script to log in to an imap account and search for emails
[10:47] <czajkowski> popey: awwww
[10:57] <diplo> AlanBell: More than likely there is a script already there, if not there ( from my experience ) will be something very similar that you can slightly change to your needs
[10:58] <diplo> I don't think I've not found something that can do something I want and needing to start from scratch
[10:58] <diplo> Even a script to check Fibre cards and whether they have an errors / problems
[10:59] <davmor2> Morning all
[10:59] <AlanBell> diplo: yeah, I think it is something I could set up, and I do have nagios running, however I suspect it could be a useful service to simplify
[11:01] <AlanBell> normal people get regular emails too, from various things
[11:01] <AlanBell> people who are not going to run nagios
[11:19] <davmor2> bigcalm: we'll wont a full report on your unity experience
[11:21] <popey> +1
[11:46] <andylockran> normal people DO run nagios
[11:46] <andylockran> it's innormal people that don't
[11:48] <BigRedS> I thought normal people ran icinga these days?
[11:50] <mungbean_> is tomboy/u1 still deleting all notes?
[11:51] <mungbean_> aararghghgh uploaded 210 notes to server
[11:52] <mungbean_> sounds like notes were not on server then
[11:53] <davmor2> andylockran: is innormal even a word?
[11:54] <popey> mungbean_: https://one.ubuntu.com/help/contact/ ?
[11:55] <mungbean_> popey: i just held off from syncing for a week after initial epic fail of note deletion
[11:55] <mungbean_> wondered if there was a consensus on what had happened and it was fixed
[11:56] <mungbean_> my understanding was every user suffered
[11:56] <Laney> #ubuntuone is likely better
[12:00] <popey> i had it happen once, restored my notes from backup, synced again
[12:00] <popey> then decided to drop tomboy completely
[12:01] <popey> so exported my notes as plain text, deleted them and removed tomboy
[12:04] <bitnumus> Hi, im trying to install ubuntu-server, the installation failed at loading the CD-ROM stage, any way to find out why?
[12:06] <popey> bitnumus: probably best asking in #ubuntu-server
[12:06] <bitnumus> ok.
[12:39] <davmor2> popey: have a look at nitro it's a task manager really but makes just as good a note keeper :)
[12:46] <rindolf> Hi all.
[12:49] <davmor2> rindolf: hello
[12:50] <rindolf> davmor2: what's up?
[12:50] <davmor2> rindolf: the Ceiling, the tree tops, the Sky :)
[12:51] <rindolf> davmor2: http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/fortunes/show.cgi?id=shlomif-fact-chuck-35
[12:55] <AlanBell> andylockran: normal sysadmins run nagios
[12:56] <rindolf> davmor2: I am a stand-in Chuck Norris on IRC, so beware my IRC wrath.
[12:56]  * rindolf unleashes his inner Chuck Norris.
[12:56]  * AlanBell sets up http://exceptionalemails.com/ and ponders how to build it
[12:57] <rindolf> AlanBell: ah, Nagios. Had a gig regarding it recently, but it was unsuccesful
[12:57] <rindolf> Our client was in denial of Brooks' Law and common sense.
[12:57] <rindolf> Brooks's maybe.
[13:00] <AlanBell> a common problem
[13:00] <AlanBell> however I am fairly sure that I don't want nagios for this
[13:02] <davmor2> rindolf: I don't know which was funnier the quote or you thinking you are to irc what chuck norris is to the world.  We know who the real IRC ninjas are :D
[13:02] <rindolf> davmor2: I was kidding.
[13:02] <rindolf> davmor2: I am just being silly.
[13:02] <rindolf> davmor2: anyway what's new with you?
[13:02] <davmor2> rindolf: hence the :D at the end :)
[13:03] <rindolf> davmor2: and/or what are you doing now?
[13:03] <rindolf> davmor2: actually I am an IRC master ninja.
[13:03] <rindolf> A ninja god.
[13:03] <dwatkins> a ginger nod.
[13:03] <davmor2> rindolf: Work, and boring admin stuff currently :)
[13:04] <rindolf> davmor2: ah, OK.
[13:11] <neuro> AlanBell: sorry, just read back
[13:11] <neuro> basing a monitoring solution around emails, and specifically email delivery, is a dangerous thing
[13:11] <neuro> too many PoFs
[13:11] <AlanBell> sure
[13:12] <AlanBell> but this isn't a sophisticated monitoring system
[13:12] <neuro> well, no
[13:12] <neuro> you're just building mail filters
[13:12] <AlanBell> no
[13:12] <neuro> you are
[13:12] <AlanBell> the opposite of mail filters
[13:12] <neuro> if this, and that, then discard
[13:12] <neuro> if not this and that by then, then alert
[13:12] <AlanBell> how do you do a mail filter on a mail that doesn't arrive?
[13:13] <neuro> i know, i know
[13:13] <BigRedS> you check the mailbox for it at a time by which it should have arrived
[13:13] <neuro> it's still a filter, it's just an anti-mail filter
[13:13] <AlanBell> BigRedS: yeah, what does that though?
[13:13] <BigRedS> no, you need a non-filter component for when nothing arrives to be filtered
[13:13] <BigRedS> Perl
[13:13] <neuro> lol
[13:13] <neuro> it's true
[13:14] <neuro> unless you are using a myriad of incompatible monitoring and alerting systems though, i'm not sure what you are trying to achieve
[13:14] <neuro> it would be easier to simply tie all your monitors into one system, and alert on fail
[13:14] <BigRedS> no, this does sound like a lot of effort to not monitor something 'properly'
[13:14] <rindolf> AlanBell: maybe try Jabber/XMPP too.
[13:14] <rindolf> This is more reliable than E-mail.
[13:14] <BigRedS> most things are more reliable than email
[13:14] <neuro> rindolf: but at the end of the day, you're still (according to this requirement) checking for mail
[13:15] <neuro> or checking for the non-delivery of mail
[13:15] <rindolf> neuro: yes.
[13:15] <rindolf> I'm not going to completely do away with my use of E-mail.
[13:15] <AlanBell> you only get alerted if you need to care
[13:15] <neuro> AlanBell: hence why i think you need to be thinking further up the chain
[13:15] <BigRedS> yeah, so I'd say you want something that checks whether you need to care and alerts you if you don't
[13:16] <neuro> what if your mailbox runs out of disk or quota?
[13:16] <neuro> then all your alert criterion will fail
[13:16] <BigRedS> not something that checks whether something didn't send you an email to say that you don't need to care and alert you if it did
[13:16] <neuro> what if an upstream smtpd fails
[13:16] <AlanBell> neuro: then you get an email about it
[13:16] <neuro> well no, you wouldn't
[13:16] <AlanBell> or an SMS or something
[13:16] <neuro> that's my point
[13:16] <neuro> sorry
[13:16] <neuro> fail
[13:16] <neuro> you'd get MANY mails
[13:16] <neuro> was my point
[13:17] <AlanBell> fine, get many emails, it still only happens when I need to do something about it
[13:17] <BigRedS> neuro: I think we're two people who don't need the service trying think about how we'd want it implemented :)
[13:17] <neuro> and if you don't properly figure out that it's the anti-mail filter that's failed rather than the upstream thing you want to keep an eye on, you waste time running about like a headless chicken trying to work out what's happened
[13:18] <AlanBell> so this service sits out in "the cloud" and gives you an email address to send all that stuff to, sync jobs, backups, other junk that happens daily or weekly
[13:18] <AlanBell> including stuff for non-sysadmins
[13:18] <neuro> BigRedS: true, but i'm trying to work out the rationale for pushing the alerting criterion further downstream, and into a region that can be prone to false positives
[13:18] <AlanBell> like "daily invoice run completed", "month end process successful" or whatever
[13:19] <AlanBell> you direct them all at this service, and tell it what you expect, and it emails you only if something goes wrong including mails failing to arrive by the correct time
[13:19] <neuro> if you're doing batch jobs, you should have watchdogs that can measure that success/failure metric and report accordingly
[13:19] <neuro> the failure to report should not be the only metric for alerting
[13:19] <AlanBell> sure you should, but lots of people don't
[13:20] <BigRedS> neuro: exactly. should versus would, though.
[13:20] <neuro> then what you're proposing - and please don't think i'm trying to put you off, rather figure out your rationale - is creating a more brittle alerting system which can be used to make people lazier in their systems implementation
[13:20] <BigRedS> "you should do this properly, but you could do it this way"
[13:20] <neuro> exactly :)
[13:20] <AlanBell> yes
[13:21] <neuro> ok then :)
[13:21] <BigRedS> because 'this way' is still better than not at all
[13:21] <neuro> well
[13:21] <neuro> hehe
[13:21]  * neuro bites tongue :)
[13:21] <BigRedS> I have two mails I get every morning from a cronjob. I probably wouldn't particularly notice if I didn't get them one day.
[13:21] <AlanBell> exactly
[13:22] <BigRedS> I don't know why there's two of them. That's why I've not made it stop mailing me. I clearly don't care about the process enough to put a better monitor in
[13:22] <BigRedS> It's been about eight months since I first thought I should sort out the duplication, but thought that the best way to not forget was to simply leave it sending me mail
[13:22] <AlanBell> it is trivial to get a cron job or backup system, or virus file update system to send an email when it is done, most things do that
[13:23] <BigRedS> it's _much_ harder to get it to only mail you every time there's a problem
[13:23] <neuro> and *only* when there's a problem
[13:23] <BigRedS> its best to have something else that does all your tests and tells you if any of them fail. but nobody, really, does that.
[13:23] <AlanBell> yes, because many failure modes will stop the email happening
[13:24] <neuro> AlanBell: and what will you do with the success emails which don't trigger an alert?
[13:25] <AlanBell> just keep them or purge them after a retention period
[13:25] <BigRedS> 'file' them
[13:25] <neuro> ew
[13:25] <AlanBell> why ew?
[13:25] <neuro> privacy concerns for one
[13:25] <BigRedS> At least draw a pretty graph with them
[13:25] <neuro> would be better to bin the mail if it matches a metric for success
[13:26] <BigRedS> neuro: privacy concerns? it's an email you've punted at The Cloud, you clearly don't care who sees what's in it
[13:26] <neuro> treat it as a Cc bin
[13:26] <AlanBell> I was thinking that the user could set their own retention period
[13:26] <AlanBell> so if you want a retention period of 1 day then fine
[13:27] <neuro> why would you need to retain them at all?
[13:27] <BigRedS> maybe you want to check periodically that all the mail being marked as 'succes' really does mean success?
[13:27] <AlanBell> to check
[13:27] <neuro> so then you're an alerting *and* message storage service
[13:28] <AlanBell> but you could set it to discard as soon as it arrives and sets the flag on the trigger
[13:28] <neuro> could
[13:28] <AlanBell> possibly have a free as in beer service with a short retention period and not many monitors and a paid subscription for any retention period and storage
[13:28] <neuro> see, when you retain things like email, you then need to think about legal ramifications
[13:28] <AlanBell> yeah, I was thinking also to get it to set up filters by example
[13:29] <neuro> at least if you're binning every success mail after the trigger has been fired, you're not storing anything
[13:29] <BigRedS> neuro: surely if you're retaining email sent directly to you you've fewer problems? you're not a relay, you're a recipient
[13:29] <AlanBell> no more than for any other email service, and that is fine, I can think about legal ramifications
[13:29] <neuro> then when someone comes along with a court order, you can say "ah, but we don't do retention"
[13:29] <AlanBell> I have done email before you know :)
[13:29] <neuro> i'm not saying you haven't :)
[13:29] <neuro> i'm just playing devil's advocate here
[13:29] <neuro> i can see uses for such a service
[13:30] <AlanBell> :)
[13:31] <AlanBell> one thing that crosses my mind is you could direct a regular email at it, then log on to the website and say "I want an email like that one every day" rather than typing in your criteria
[13:31] <neuro> that would certainly get around criteria creation hassles
[13:31] <neuro> just cherry pick the bits you want
[13:32] <neuro> "this bit of the subject", "this bit of the body", "this sending IP"
[13:32] <AlanBell> yeah, so it would suggest a rough time window, from address, subject etc
[13:32] <neuro> you could just have a common tag at the end of the input address
[13:32] <neuro> electricboogaloo+config@foo
[13:33] <neuro> and it would disregard any filters/criteria for that message, and hold it in a config bin waiting to be dealt with
[13:33] <AlanBell> interesting point, yeah
[13:33] <neuro> or perhaps more real world jacn8afn2ynks+config@foo :)
[13:34] <AlanBell> so myaccount+server1backup@exceptionalemails.com
[13:34] <neuro> yeah
[13:35] <neuro> another suggestion: allow each filter to have a timezone set
[13:36] <AlanBell> ok, good point
[13:36] <neuro> you don't want a misfire in case an email by 2am arrives at 2am but is tagged 1am (or arrives at 3am) on a DST cutover
[13:37] <neuro> just allow UTC, PST/PDT, etc and make sure you match that timezone when doing the time criterion calcs
[13:37] <AlanBell> hmm, DST is *hard* to get perfect, it happens at different times in different places
[13:37] <AlanBell> but yeah, that can be done
[13:37] <neuro> yeah, but timezones are known entities :)
[13:37] <AlanBell> and it is easier to design it in now than fix it later :)
[13:38] <neuro> exactly
[13:39] <neuro> i'm pretty sure someone somewhere has written a library to deal with it ;)
[13:39] <BigRedS> force everyone into UK time
[13:39] <neuro> no
[13:39] <AlanBell> tempting
[13:39] <neuro> UTC or death
[13:39] <BigRedS> or, as we call it internally at work, One True Time
[13:39] <BigRedS> makes it way easier to schedule things
[13:39] <popey> you could surely do this with one giant procmail? ☺
[13:39] <BigRedS> no, nobody thinks in UTC. At least Britain thinks in UK time :)
[13:39] <neuro> well it's the logic of whatever procmail fires the email at that matters
[13:39] <AlanBell> popey: how does procmail send an email when it *doesn't* get one?
[13:39] <neuro> BigRedS: but UTC is a worldwide thing, unless you enjoy building parochial products that have a limited scope of use
[13:39] <neuro> zing
[13:39] <neuro> burn
[13:40] <neuro> Schrodinger's Mail Filter
[13:40] <neuro> the mail is both sent and unsent simultaneously
[13:40] <neuro> until the mailbox is opened
[13:41] <neuro> i'd say that's a better brand than exceptional emails :)
[13:41] <neuro> DIBS!!!!!
[13:41] <AlanBell> the wave function collapses
[13:42] <neuro> maybe i should build schrodinger's mail filter, you can build exceptional emails, and we'll see who gets there first :)
[13:43] <neuro> CAPITALISM!!!!!!
[13:43] <BigRedS> neuro: the fewer people who use my code the less time I need to spend fixing it :)
[13:43] <neuro> hehe
[13:43] <BigRedS> In some seriousness, I'd always use UTC for code. I just hate having to then make it human-friendly, precisely because nobody wants to work in UTC and it's really hard to guess and then work out what they do want to work in
[13:44] <neuro> the thing about UTC, as the Joker says in The Dark Knight about chaos ... it's fair
[13:44] <neuro> no worrying about when DST changes occur
[13:44] <BigRedS> it's like EU standardisation. It's mutually inconvenient for everybody
[13:44] <neuro> or if they change from year to year
[13:45] <neuro> also, you know, if it's good enough for the military ...
[13:45] <neuro> and NASA ...
[13:45] <neuro> all you need to track are leap seconds
[13:46] <BigRedS> seconds? Nah, I have the same resolution as cron.
[13:46] <neuro> cron's time resolution is only as good as your upstream ntp server
[13:46] <neuro> and your RTC
[13:46] <AlanBell> I wouldn't think that this needs to be accurate at all
[13:46] <neuro> you think?
[13:46] <AlanBell> you set the timeout for maybe an hour after the email normally turns up
[13:46] <neuro> as soon as you introduce time criterion, you need it to be accurate to the second
[13:47] <neuro> what if your failure timeout criterion needs to be more accurate than an hour?
[13:47] <neuro> well then i guess you need your own monitoring solution :)
[13:47] <AlanBell> just in case the job takes a bit longer, or the mail doesn't arrive so fast
[13:47] <neuro> ah, so now you're introducing fuzziness
[13:47] <AlanBell> yeah, if you need to care that urgently you wouldn't use this
[13:47] <neuro> which i guess could be a configurable option of each filter
[13:48] <neuro> or of each paid-for filter, if you want to be a freemium git about it
[13:48] <AlanBell> something like a "backup completed" email would not come at a predictable time every day
[13:48] <neuro> i have had backups that take a day :)
[13:49] <neuro> stupid rsnapshot
[13:49] <AlanBell> say the backup kicks off at 02:00 and normally finishes by 02:45 you might trigger the email to let you know if it isn't done by 04:00 because you still get the mail by breakfast time and you really don't care if it finished a bit late
[13:50] <neuro> see the complexity you're having to generate that could be dealt with by a well kept nagios install? :)
[13:50] <AlanBell> and yeah, I think a freemium model is probably what I will do unless a better idea presents itself
[13:51] <AlanBell> that isn't complexity!
[13:51] <neuro> you're uncovering additional criterion to meet a flexibility requirement due to operational fluctuations of the tasks being monitored (or the success/failure modes of the tasks)
[13:52] <neuro> you'll realise you need more as more situations get presented to you
[13:52] <AlanBell> that isn't an uncovered criterion, it is the first thing on my notepad of scribbles!
[13:52] <neuro> you know what i mean :)
[13:53] <AlanBell> and with the "by example" stuff I was going to suggest to the user adding an hour of leeway to the received time
[13:53] <neuro> i'm using flowery language to say that your notepad of scribbles will get filled with more stuff as more people think of stuff to check for
[13:53] <BigRedS> neuro: cron's time resolution is to the minute
[13:53] <neuro> but if your clock is off, then the execution time is not to the minute
[13:53] <neuro> it could be to ten past the minute
[13:53] <neuro> or the minute + 6
[13:54] <BigRedS> no, but that's not resolution, that's accuracy
[13:54] <BigRedS> or correctness
[13:54] <neuro> HANDBAGS AT DAWN
[13:54] <BigRedS> dawn in which timezone according to which ntp server?
[13:54] <BigRedS> in fact, which dawn?
[13:54] <AlanBell> the whole point of this is to grab emails that turn up at the *end* of jobs, which will have a variable length of time
[13:54] <neuro> red dawn
[13:55] <neuro> yeah but if you're wanting to know if a mail was or was not received by X
[13:55] <neuro> and the execution time is X-Y
[13:55] <neuro> but the time on the execution host is off by Z
[13:56] <neuro> and if the third train leaves King's Cross station at quarter past three, travelling at 40mph ...
[13:56] <BigRedS> haha
[13:56] <AlanBell> you just set X to be the time at which you would be worried if the mail hasn't arrived
[13:56] <AlanBell> not the time you are expecting it
[13:57] <neuro> i'm just saying, having time checking is useful
[13:57] <neuro> you could check the header Received: trail
[13:57] <AlanBell> timezones and DST is something to get right, but leap seconds are not worth worrying about
[13:58] <neuro> i'm not talking about leap seconds with regard to this discussion
[13:58] <BigRedS> yeah, I'd have though o'clock was resolution enough
[13:58] <neuro> oof
[13:58] <BigRedS> "if I've not received notification that this backup finished by midday let me know" etc.
[13:59] <neuro> sometimes, waiting 59 minutes to know if something bad has happened can be too long
[13:59] <AlanBell> BigRedS: exactly
[13:59] <BigRedS> neuro: then you need to monitor it properly
[13:59] <neuro> \o/
[13:59] <BigRedS> sometimes it takes 59 minutes for the mail to get to my mailbox
[13:59] <BigRedS> or to me. I might be having lunch
[13:59] <neuro> this is why man invented devices with wireless radios
[13:59] <neuro> also for easier access to pictures of cats
[14:00] <neuro> well, less so pagers and devices with SMS, but definitely smartphones
[14:00] <BigRedS> yes, but instead of ubiquitous 3G we're now aiming for patchy 3g and even more patchy 4g
[14:00] <neuro> there's no such thing as ubiquitous 3G
[14:00] <neuro> and there's no such thing as 4G in this country
[14:00] <BigRedS> I can't wait until there's two different generations of wireless data that I can't receive
[14:01]  * AlanBell wonders what technology to use to build this
[14:01] <popey> Go!
[14:01] <BigRedS> Fortan
[14:01] <popey> Brainfsck!
[14:01] <neuro> BigRedS: there aren't two different generations of wireless data, unless you mean 2G and 3.xG
[14:01] <neuro> popey: haha
[14:01] <BigRedS> neuro: I don't know what I mean, but I keep getting told that there's a new one soon while I can't get the old one
[14:02] <neuro> 3G = UMTS
[14:02] <neuro> 3.5G = HSPA
[14:02] <neuro> 3.9G = LTE
[14:02] <BigRedS> generations have point releases?
[14:02] <neuro> well, actually they have ITU standards definitions
[14:03] <BigRedS> Oh
[14:03] <BigRedS> so this new thing EE are going on about is three-and-a-half-gee?
[14:03] <neuro> "3G" is a bunch of ITU IMT-2000 standards
[14:03] <neuro> 3.9G
[14:03] <neuro> LTE
[14:04] <neuro> what AT&T call "4G" in the states is just 3.5G HSPA+
[14:04] <neuro> it's all branding
[14:04] <BigRedS> I need to stop trying to be interested, and get back to just complaining that none of it works :)
[14:05] <neuro> when it all works, it all works very well
[14:05] <neuro> what you need to keep an eye out for is LTE Advanced
[14:05] <neuro> which *is* 4G
[14:06] <BigRedS> but is that going to have better coverage than whatever I mean when I say 3G?
[14:06] <neuro> well
[14:06] <BigRedS> because I don't want faster internet on my phone, I want *useful* internet on my phone
[14:06] <BigRedS> I've still not been able to properly recreate that scene from Mission Impossible, and it's not because I can't find a helicopter to tie to the train
[14:07] <neuro> then you should try to stick to 900MHz HSPA for now (or in layman's terms, Voda or O2)
[14:07]  * AlanBell wonders whether to use exim or write the whole thing from scratch (ish)
[14:07] <neuro> postfix+procmail+python
[14:07] <BigRedS> whole thing from scratch
[14:08] <AlanBell> http://docs.python.org/2/library/smtpd.html#smtpd.SMTPServer and implement process_message
[14:08] <BigRedS> Oh, not the smtpd bit.
[14:08] <BigRedS> but get whatever smtpd you want to use, make it not accept spam and forward everything else to a heap of whatever you like writing text processing code in
[14:08] <AlanBell> inbound only
[14:08] <BigRedS> awk?
[14:08] <neuro> ooh, LTE Advanced does MIMO as part of the spec, didn't know that
[14:09] <BigRedS> If you try to pass too much of the logic over to the smtpd you're likely to end up wanting to do something that it can't do
[14:09] <neuro> woah yeah don't write your own smtpd
[14:09] <AlanBell> yeah, which is why I am thinking of getting the messages directly
[14:10] <neuro> getting them from where?
[14:10] <BigRedS> listening on port 25?
[14:10] <BigRedS> that's a solved problem and a reasonably hard one. Use someone else's solution.
[14:10] <neuro> ^ this
[14:10] <AlanBell> well, using lib/smtpd.py
[14:10] <neuro> why make life hard for yourself?
[14:11] <neuro> you're going to need an smtpd to throw out alerts anyway
[14:11] <AlanBell> well I have to get at the messages somehow
[14:11] <neuro> postfix and exim are mature and well-known entities
[14:11] <BigRedS> and, if it all goes well, you're going to want to scale. You're almost certainly going to want to do anti-spam stuff
[14:11] <neuro> procmail the inbounds and process them with $TOOL
[14:12] <neuro> jeez, even just dump them in a maildir and work with them in there
[14:12] <BigRedS> I'd just get $smtpd to pipe it into $tool
[14:12] <BigRedS> or, yeah, write an imap robot
[14:12] <BigRedS> actually, I'd *exactly* write an imap robot
[14:12] <neuro> yeah
[14:12] <AlanBell> one possible way is to set up exim with mysql back end for user management and dovecot for imap then python talks to imap
[14:13] <neuro> postfix+dovecot, then talk to the imapd or the maildirs direct
[14:13] <AlanBell> then in theory it could talk to another imap, including one off site
[14:13] <neuro> or clustered
[14:13] <AlanBell> but then I have to poke user information into dovecot/exim
[14:13] <neuro> you probably want to think about clustering up front, even if you only onebox the thing to start with
[14:14] <BigRedS> AlanBell: if it's SQL backed it's very easy code
[14:14] <AlanBell> so they need to be set up with database back ends rather than system users, which means not using the debian packages
[14:14] <neuro> errrrrr
[14:14] <neuro> wut?
[14:14] <BigRedS> huh?
[14:14] <BigRedS> we use postfix/dovecot/mysql on Debian with Debian packages
[14:14] <AlanBell> oh, I thought they were built without it
[14:15] <BigRedS> at-get install postfix-mysql dovecot-mysql
[14:15] <BigRedS> I think
[14:15] <BigRedS> something like that
[14:15] <neuro> yarp
[14:15] <BigRedS> I scripted the whole thing: https://github.com/BigRedS/postfixadmin-installer all that's not packaged is a perl lib (that is in non-free) and the vacation plugin
[14:15] <neuro> neuro@saratoga:~$ apt-cache search postfix-mysql
[14:15] <neuro> postfix-mysql - MySQL map support for Postfix
[14:15] <neuro> neuro@saratoga:~$ apt-cache search dovecot-mysql
[14:15] <neuro> dovecot-mysql - MySQL support for Dovecot
[14:15] <neuro> Well. Known. Entities.
[14:15] <neuro> don't reinvent the wheel
[14:16] <BigRedS> we've a few hundred of those
[14:16] <BigRedS> hm. many tens. lots of things are still qmail...
[14:16] <neuro> BigRedS: that's a cute script
[14:17] <BigRedS> it's horrific
[14:17] <BigRedS> did you read the code?
[14:17] <neuro> :)
[14:17] <neuro> yeah
[14:17] <AlanBell> why won't it work on oniric?
[14:17] <neuro> i mean yeah, it's evil :)
[14:17] <AlanBell> oh, it works on precise, that is OK
[14:17] <BigRedS> dovecot changes its config file layout
[14:17] <BigRedS> there's a 'wheezy' branch that probably does
[14:17] <neuro> DOVECOT! *shakes fist*
[14:17] <neuro> actually ...
[14:18] <neuro> UPSTREAM!!!! *shakes fist*
[14:18] <BigRedS> But, yeah, that script evolved from a bash script that had a bunch of Perl one liners into a Perl script
[14:18] <neuro> :)
[14:18] <BigRedS> the SVN history before I put it into a github repo is, er, harrowing
[14:18] <BigRedS> but it works, so I don't want to rework it :)
[14:18] <neuro> i still haven't evolved from bash, i'm ashamed to say
[14:19] <BigRedS> I generally stop using bash as soon as I need an if statement
[14:19] <BigRedS> I can never get those right
[14:19] <neuro> echo " * executing post-update processese"
[14:19] <neuro> if [ "$1" == "" ]
[14:19] <neuro> then
[14:19] <neuro>         SERVICE="ssl deny dns dhcp ntp squid noc"
[14:19] <neuro> else
[14:19] <neuro>         SERVICE="$*"
[14:19] <BigRedS> the spaces and square brackets and when I need quote marks and argh
[14:19] <neuro> fi
[14:19] <neuro> :)
[14:19] <neuro> part of my stupid config mgmt thingy
[14:21] <neuro> this one is my favourite (part of *cough* something else)
[14:21] <neuro> while test $# -gt 0; do
[14:21] <neuro>         case "$1" in
[14:21] <neuro>                 -*=*)
[14:21] <neuro>                         optarg=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[-_a-zA-Z0-9]*=//')
[14:21] <neuro>                         optarg=
[14:21] <neuro>                         ;;
[14:21] <neuro>                 *)
[14:21] <neuro>                         ;;
[14:21] <neuro>         esac
[14:21] <neuro>         case "$1" in
[14:21] <neuro> ...
[14:21] <neuro> case statements!!! crazy!
[14:21] <neuro> (not sure if that made it through, stupid flood protection)
[14:23] <BigRedS> at least some of it did. I dislike all of it because it's bash, though
[14:23] <BigRedS> :)
[14:23] <neuro> :)
[14:23] <dwatkins> optarg=
[14:23] <dwatkins> doesn't that make it null?
[14:23] <AlanBell> so, with exim/mysql and dovecot mysql I create a user by writing a username/password to a database table or is there a library to wrap that?
[14:24] <BigRedS> I've written a Perl library for the postfixadmin system that script installs
[14:24] <BigRedS> it's also badly written, but it does work :)
[14:24]  * neuro harrumphs
[14:24] <neuro> design your system first, then engineer it
[14:24] <neuro> :)
[14:24] <BigRedS> It's really basic SQL, though. If you're just interested in adding simple transports you could write your code in a couple of hours
[14:26] <neuro> dwatkins: it's matching for --fish=bar, setting $optarg to bar; if there is no = in the flag, then there's no option argument
[14:27] <neuro> i don't actually use it later in the script, it's all a big incomplete mess
[14:27] <neuro> ergo, bash :)
[14:27] <BigRedS> but whatever the first line does, the second will null $optarg, wont it?
[14:27] <BigRedS> so you may as well not have the "optarg=$(echo "$1" | sed 's/[-_a-zA-Z0-9]*=//')" line
[14:27] <dwatkins> neuro: ah ok, thanks
[14:28] <jacobw> why wouldn't use you use getopts?
[14:28] <jacobw> sorry, that's not a sentence
[14:28] <jacobw> why wouldn't you use getopts?
[14:30] <neuro> because i'm a sadist
[14:30] <neuro> and i probably forgot about that when i wrote that
[14:30] <neuro> i don't actually remember writing it
[14:30] <neuro> i just know it's in some code i have for some stuff i use
[14:31] <DJones> Interesting Valve news story, announce Linux video game store as it announces the lay off of some staff http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21471974
[14:32] <dwatkins> perhaps they were people who were trying to get half-life 3 finished before the end of the decade ;)
[14:32] <neuro> um wow
[14:32] <neuro> valve prided themselves on having zero turnover
[14:34] <mgdm> how is zero turnover possible?
[14:35] <jacobw> everyone dies before they move on
[14:35] <jacobw> i think that would satisfy some definition of zero turnover
[14:36] <BigRedS> mgdm: enthusiastic rounding
[14:39]  * AlanBell decides to use python smtpd library for version 1
[14:40] <neuro> or maybe it was github that has had zero turnover
[14:41] <neuro> this is an awesome read though: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/valve/Valve_NewEmployeeHandbook.pdf
[15:09] <einonm> I can only imagine that the valve layoffs are to do with the changing skill set that the company needs...things like graphics drivers are probably very different between Linux and Windows
[15:13] <einonm> but also, maybe I'm being cynical - trust the BBC to put a negative spin on something Linux related
[16:30] <Guest11358> I have two books, one is called Practical UNIX & internet security (third edition ), and the other is the o'reilly Linux in a nutshell (4th edition), could anyone tell me if they're still of any relevance, or if such systems have moved on to make all the technologies in the book obsolete, as they're relatively old books
[16:46] <rindolf> Guest11358: I think they should be fine.
[16:46] <rindolf> Guest11358: if you're fond of learning such stuff from books.
[16:46] <rindolf> Guest11358: have not really read them, but O'Reilly books tend to be very good.
[16:47] <DJones> !manual | Guest11358 This could well be of use as well,
[16:48] <Guest11358> ah cool, find printed copies much easier to read generally, i have tons of ebooks but reading from a monitor after a while is awkward, plus I picked these books up from college for about 30p each haha, thanks for the reply
[16:49] <BigRedS> the principles are likely to be about right for either, but the detail might be a bit off by now. Does the Linux in a nutshell book say which kernel version it expects?
[16:49] <BigRedS> er, covers. It's a book, not software
[16:50] <Guest11358> not sure, was printed in June 2003 if that says anything
[16:51] <Guest11358> obviously not about the kernel, could have a good guess at the kernel from the time stamp though
[16:51] <BigRedS> nah, that's going to be not so old that it's useless
[16:52] <BigRedS> depends what you're interested in, really
[16:52] <Guest11358> and ubuntu manual seems okay, a lot of the stuff im perfectly capable of doing, been using ubuntu for a few years, becoming my main OS now and im just trying to understand some of the deeper aspects, been playing with the terminal a lot more
[17:04] <popey> Azelphur: https://plus.google.com/u/0/109365858706205035322/posts/FDxuNJXSdfw
[17:04] <popey> \o/ TF2
[17:04] <Azelphur> I'm up for bat beatings.
[17:08] <Azelphur> annnnd everybody left :p
[17:09] <Azelphur> also, 300fps flat out with compiz enabled, w00t
[17:10] <Azelphur> lemme know when your playing and I'll join ya
[17:11] <Azelphur> for now, back to work https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3832397/screenshots/2013/Jan/2013-02-13-215546_5120x1440_scrot.png xD
[17:24] <Laney> bah
[17:24] <Laney> the initial tf2 download is massive
[17:24] <Azelphur> yep lol
[17:25] <Laney> not getting stellar speeds either
[17:25] <Azelphur> takes a lot of space for the worlds most advanced hat simulator
[17:39] <popey> http://www.canonical.com/content/touch-developer-preview-ubuntu-be-published-21-february-2013
[17:39] <popey> \o/
[17:43] <Laney> good use for a broken nexus 4?
[17:43] <Laney> :P
[17:44] <popey> :D
[17:49]  * AlanBell puts an include in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TouchInstallProces pointing to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TouchInstallProcess because of sloppy sloppy press release
[17:51] <AlanBell> or maybe a redirect
[17:53] <Laney> har har
[17:55] <Paladine> popey, what bitrate do you recommend for a podcast?
[17:59] <davmor2> ghoti == fish  you take the gh from tough, the o from women and the ti from station :)  the English Language rocks
[18:01] <rindolf> davmor2: what?
[18:01] <rindolf> davmor2: my last name is Fish.
[18:02] <rindolf> But I'm not English - I'm an Israeli Jew.
[18:02] <davmor2> rindolf: it's a play on the different ways you can say a combination of letter in English
[18:04] <davmor2> rindolf: it's things like tough and plough, how is 1 ending uff and the other ow and why is stuff not spelt stough etc
[18:08] <rindolf> davmor2: yes.
[18:08] <rindolf> davmor2: and through.
[18:34]  * AlanBell observed fixed press release
[18:51] <redtape-renegade> Ominous package arrived today ... https://dl.dropbox.com/u/55128914/Lubuntu%20docs/Merchandise%20Mania%20%28Kubuntu%20Pens%29%20takes%20Royal%20Mail%204%20days%20to%20arrive%20usually%20by%20.png
[18:57] <penguin42> took me a few seconds to parse that as 4 days not 204
[18:58] <directhex> mmm, monitors
[18:58] <directhex> i wish i had a monitor
[18:58] <penguin42> buy one?
[19:00] <directhex> they cost money!
[19:00] <directhex> real money!
[19:01] <penguin42> this is true
[19:01] <davmor2> directhex: poach Azelphur 's bitcoins and by one :)
[19:02] <directhex> i said real money, not crazy cyberlibertarian pretend money!
[19:02]  * directhex flees
[19:03] <brobostigon> lol, on the one show, tuffers dressed up like arthur dent.
[19:03] <davmor2> directhex: yeah but poaching fake money that can buy real stuff can't be a crime right it was only numbers on a machine :D
[19:09] <redtape-renegade> !anyone want a pen ?
[19:22] <jacobw> redtape-renegade: yes
[19:34] <redtape-renegade> jacobw: I've PM'd you 2 mins ago ...
[20:02] <popey> Azelphur: on it now ☺
[20:03] <popey> http://www.gametracker.com/server_info/54.243.8.249:27015/top_players/#search
[20:03] <ali1234> so does juju have a charm for tf2 server?
[20:05] <popey> ya
[20:06] <ali1234> cool
[20:06] <ali1234> but why isn't my steam working?
[20:06] <ali1234> bash: /usr/bin/steam: No such file or directory
[20:07] <ali1234> oh wait i know
[20:07] <ali1234> it's because i accidentally /usr/bin/ and then repaired it from packages
[20:07] <ali1234> but steam is not on the repos
[20:07] <ali1234> or wasn't when i installed it
[20:08] <directhex> davmor2, if Azelphur truly loved me, he'd donate £626 of bitcoins so i can buy a new screen!
[20:10] <ali1234> argh 142 mb steam update
[20:10] <MartijnVdS> yeah steam updates aren't tiny
[20:12] <penguin42> directhex: 626 ?! You're not after a cheap screen are you?
[20:13] <directhex> penguin42, well i wouldn't want to *downgrade*.
[20:13] <directhex> that'd be silly!
[20:13] <penguin42> wth do you get for 626?
[20:14] <penguin42> I mean you can get a 2560x1440 27" for around 450
[20:15] <MartijnVdS> yay ebay
[20:15]  * penguin42 means new, not ebay
[20:15] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: you can get new ones from ebay
[20:15] <MartijnVdS> for that price
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> or even cheaper
[20:16] <popey> bah, shopping has arrived
[20:16] <directhex> penguin42, a *good* 1440p 27" with displayport and an actual usable stand
[20:16] <popey> how do you go AFK in tf2?
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> popey: Alt+F3
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> uhr
[20:16] <MartijnVdS> F4
[20:16] <directhex> popey, hit the team change button, join "spectate"
[20:16] <Azelphur> popey: what's the address again?
[20:16] <penguin42> directhex: Oh you're a picky one aren't you....
[20:17] <directhex> penguin42, i have business raisins for displayport.
[20:17] <popey> http://www.gametracker.com/server_info/54.243.8.249:27015/top_players/#search
[20:17] <penguin42> directhex: I prefer chocolate raisins
[20:18] <MartijnVdS> chocolate raaaai
[20:18] <MartijnVdS> n
[20:19] <amayer_> is it better to use steams repo or the default ubuntu repo for steam.
[20:19] <amayer_> i got steam from the steam repo a while back and now i see it is in the ubuntu repo
[20:19] <popey> doesnt matter
[20:19] <penguin42> directhex: ebuyer list a 27" sammy with displayport for 572
[20:19] <popey> it self-updates
[20:20] <amayer_> so they will be identical
[20:20] <Laney> handy for raring users
[20:22] <amayer_> how come when i type:
[20:22] <amayer_> sudo apt-get update && apt-cache search steam
[20:23] <amayer_> steam doesnt show on 12.04LTS? but it shows up in the software center
[20:23] <Laney> it adds a new repository
[20:23] <directhex> software center shows a lot of things in custom repositories
[20:24] <ali1234> i just ran TF2 and it just says "Steam Beta must be running to use Find Servers"
[20:25] <Laney> can i get steam to not pause a download when i'm playing a game?
[20:25] <ali1234> but steam clearly is running
[20:28] <directhex> ali1234, sounds like you have an extremely old steam.deb installed
[20:28] <directhex> ali1234, i.e. older than 1.0.0.25
[20:28] <directhex> Laney, sadly, it's down to a game's publisher to mark whether a game needs full bandwidth interwebs or not, and the default is "yes"
[20:31] <ali1234> directhex: i just installed the one from the software center, and then it did an update
[20:31] <ali1234> about steam: Build: 14 Feb 2013
[20:32] <directhex> the steam client, and the steam updater, are distinct entities. steam.deb contains the steam updater, and is responsible for things like enforcing folder structure
[20:33] <ali1234> how do i check steam updater version?
[20:33] <directhex> issues with games not detecting steam are usually caused by an out of date updater (i.e. .deb), NOT an out of date client... they sorta need to be kept in tandem
[20:33] <directhex> ali1234, dpkg -l steam ?
[20:33] <ali1234> ii  steam                                                 1.0.0.27ubuntu1                 i386                            Installer for the Steam software distribution service
[20:33] <directhex> ii  steam          1.0.0.27     i386         Installer for the Steam software
[20:33] <directhex> hm, that should be current then
[20:33] <ali1234> exactly :/
[20:34] <ali1234> so, what should i do? delete ~/.steam and start over?
[20:37] <directhex> mmmmmmm, not sure. worth a shot if you have spare bandwidth
[20:43] <Azelphur> Anyone happen to have any ideas about TF2 on AMD 7950? on fglrx-updates it won't start ( this bug https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/688 ) on latest it starts, but with poor frame rate
[20:45] <penguin42> in the end it's a seg so toss up between graphics driver and game code I guess - both of which are closed
[20:46] <Azelphur> \o/
[20:46] <penguin42> is anyone else having problems with text corruption in large text entries in firefox - e.g. lp forms where a line won't get redrawn for a while?
[21:11] <redtape-renegade> ☺ Authome ! \o/ |
[21:33] <ali1234> directhex: deleting .steam worked, although it s a symlink and steam just recreated it. but then everything started working.
[22:27]  * Azelphur buys hacker duality off steam