[04:32] <ali1234> bug 1048556
[04:51] <ali1234> https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-runtime <- is this what it looks like?
[04:51] <ali1234> "valve linux"
[04:51] <ali1234> i see crosstool and buildroot
[04:55] <ali1234> sure, it's meant to be a chroot... but how hard would it be to throw on a kernel and make it the main system?
[06:22] <ali1234> lol
[06:22] <ali1234> i wrote a program to stress gnome-panel and find leaks
[06:22] <ali1234> found a leak in metacity instead
[06:23] <ali1234> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1669331/
[06:24] <ali1234> makes metacity memory usage increase about about 500kb/sec
[06:31] <MartijnVdS> just normal window actions?
[06:42] <ali1234> minimize, maximize, show, hide
[06:42] <ali1234> trying to narrow down the cause now
[06:55] <ali1234> ok, it's show/hide
[06:59] <ali1234> minimizing also does it... looks like any state change on the window
[07:16] <ali1234> as usual, valgrind does not consider it a real memory leak. because gnome developers are doing their usual trick of putting stuff in a hash table and then never using it again.
[07:29] <MartijnVdS> "It's still reachable!"
[07:32] <ali1234> hmm... it's actually weirder than that
[07:34] <ali1234> so because certain XEvents do not have a time stamp (apparently) metacity sends dummy property changes and then waits for the event to return (with a timestamp)
[07:34] <ali1234> it does this a lot
[07:35] <ali1234> and when it does it, it doesn't properly free the XEvent
[07:35] <MartijnVdS> yay non-timestamped events
[07:35] <MartijnVdS> I've heard more people complain about those
[07:36] <ali1234> if this code is in mutter i will scream
[08:00] <ali1234> this might actually be an X11 bug
[08:02] <MartijnVdS> ali1234: http://xkcd.com/349/
[08:03] <ali1234> when an XEvent happens it mallocs some memory
[08:04] <ali1234> when the event is handled it doesn't free the event, it puts it into a list to be reused
[08:04] <ali1234> but then it never reuses it
[08:04] <ali1234> it just mallocs more and more forever
[08:04] <ali1234> this is in libX11
[08:05] <ali1234> that's why it is still reachable
[08:10] <ali1234> ah, i see what's happening
[08:11] <ali1234> i'm filling the event queue faster than metacity can handle it
[08:11] <ali1234> so it keep generating more and more events because the old ones aren't free yet
[08:11] <ali1234> the unused events then build up and never get freed
[08:13] <ali1234> apparently metacity can only handle 4 events/ms
[08:14] <ali1234> wait, no, i mean it takes 4ms to handle 1 event
[09:43] <SuperEngineer> morninks all
[10:13] <jacobw> morning SuperEngineer
[10:15] <dwatkins> hi di hi
[10:19] <SuperEngineer> o?
[10:20] <SuperEngineer> [that's a very tired version of "o/"]
[10:20] <SuperEngineer> ...up again till wee hours this a.m.
[10:21] <SuperEngineer> my prize... I got my .37 kernel back, I got my nvidia 304 experimental back... I've got my system back!
[10:22] <dwatkins> hooray, SuperEngineer - now run a backup ;)
[10:23] <SuperEngineer> dwatkins: done already! ;)
[10:23] <dwatkins> excellent - what do you use to backup, SuperEngineer?
[10:24] <SuperEngineer> a separate drive in same pooter - and rsync'd whole of /home
[10:30]  * SuperEngineer makes mental note to buy external drive and backup whole damn system! ☺
[10:32] <dwatkins> SuperEngineer: yeah, that's what I'm just about to do
[10:32] <dwatkins> I wonder what the best mechanism is - turn off the machine and boot from an external USB stick so no files are in use, perhaps
[10:32] <SuperEngineer> dwatkins: you could save me some £££ here - send me your external drive [pretty please] ;)
[10:33] <dwatkins> lol
[10:33] <dwatkins> I need my drives for my own backups, I have several PCs.
[10:33] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: protip: get 100/100 fibre, everyone's drive will be your external drive with sshfs ;)
[10:33]  * MartijnVdS mounts $VPS that way
[10:33] <dwatkins> MartijnVdS: you're lucky in that you can get that
[10:34] <MartijnVdS> dwatkins: You're free to move to the Netherlands ;)
[10:34] <dwatkins> I am, yes.
[10:34] <dwatkins> I may need to learn Dutch first.
[10:34] <MartijnVdS> The only people who don't speak English are <10 years old
[10:35] <dwatkins> ah ok, I imagine it might be useful to speak Dutch in a technical support job, though.
[10:35] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS:  ;)
[10:41] <SuperEngineer> Anyone else using Steam here... and have Puddle - I'm getting tempted
[10:43] <MartijnVdS> I've only played half-life through steam
[10:44] <dwatkins> I played TF2 a couple weeks ago, not seen Puddle.... *starts Steam*
[10:44] <AlanBell> just read that TF2 is a 12GB download, that can't be right can it?
[10:44] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: it is..
[10:44] <dwatkins> wouldn't entirely surprise me, AlanBell
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> 1GB of game engine, basic models etc
[10:45] <MartijnVdS> 11GB of hats.
[10:45]  * AlanBell has a hat
[10:45] <AlanBell> why does a game have hats?
[10:46] <dwatkins> monetisation
[10:46] <jacobw> DLC
[10:46]  * SuperEngineer found great joy in deleting Half-Life from windoze partition & having it here instead
[10:47] <jacobw> HL/CS is old :(
[10:47] <SuperEngineer> ...but fun
[10:48] <jacobw> I'm quite exciting by the prospect of running CS:S on my Ubuntu laptop
[10:50] <SuperEngineer> Just a thought - I hope all this Steam commotion doesn't make people forget things like DOSbox
[10:55] <AlanBell> my dns is a bit screwy this morning
[10:55] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: some steam games ARE dosbox + the old DOS game :)
[10:55] <MartijnVdS> SuperEngineer: but those haven't been ported to Linux yet (should be easy for the devs though)
[10:56] <dwatkins> My Ubuntu PC is now my newest gaming console, I have an xbox controller which seems to work fine with it and am downloading TF2 :)
[10:57] <dwatkins> SuperEngineer: that makes me wonder if gog.com supports Linux...
[10:58] <directhex> AlanBell, 12GB isn't too big by modern standards, really
[10:58] <SuperEngineer> MartijnVdS: wow!
[10:59] <directhex> an MMORPG is much bigger
[10:59] <SuperEngineer> Barry Drake on mail list has just confirmed same problem as I had with newest driver requested by Steam...
[10:59] <directhex> but look at it this way - if a game is meant to be played at 1080p, then how many high resolution texture files need to ship? how much space to high res pictures take? see also sounds, 3d models, maps, badgers
[11:00] <SuperEngineer> ...and has a much easier way out than it took me to resolve last night!
[11:00] <MartijnVdS> directhex: 3d models are actually one of the smaller things, even with 6 billion polys
[11:00] <directhex> MartijnVdS, true
[11:01] <MartijnVdS> yay vectors
[11:01] <AlanBell> yeah, I figured they would be comparable to console games bug I guess they are going to be bigger than lego harry potter on the wii
[11:01] <AlanBell> s/bug/but
[11:01] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: console games come on blu-ray discs, which can store up to 50GB
[11:01] <directhex> point is, taking tf2 as the example, the game's full set of executables and libraries is under 90 meg. of which 51 meg is libcef.so (Chromium Embedded Framework, i.e. the in-game hat store's web browser engine)
[11:02] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[11:02] <MartijnVdS> \o brobostigon
[11:02] <brobostigon> o/ MartijnVdS
[11:05] <directhex> -rwxrwxr-x  1 directhex directhex 5.3G Feb 16 09:45 Team Fortress 2 Content.gcf
[11:05] <directhex> -rwxrwxr-x  1 directhex directhex 4.5G Feb 16 09:45 Team Fortress 2 Materials.gcf
[11:06] <directhex> AlanBell, you're correct that games targetting the xbox 360 first tends to weigh in at ~5 gig, due to DVD limitations
[11:06] <directhex> AlanBell, if they target PC first, then just a decent set of textures compared to what the 360 can manage will bump that up a lot
[11:06] <AlanBell> I will try and see one of these games one day
[11:07] <directhex> well, let's use GTA4 as an example
[11:07] <jacobw> dwatkins: an Xbox controll w/ Ubuntu
[11:07] <directhex> it's a single-disc xbox 360 game, right?
[11:08] <AlanBell> I guess. I am sure they are fun, I was just a bit surprised at it being bigger than a film
[11:09] <AlanBell> we only have a playstation 2 and a wii
[11:09] <AlanBell> I guess I haven't seen any modern games of the generation after those
[11:09] <AlanBell> apart from angry birds
[11:10] <directhex> the ps2 is 13 years old
[11:10] <dwatkins> jacobw: yes
[11:10] <directhex> let's use some concrete examples. here's GTA on PS2: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2008/04/gtasa.jpg
[11:11] <directhex> and here's GTA on a PC, with a graphics enhancement mod: http://metalarcade.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/gta_4_icenhancer_6.jpg
[11:12] <dwatkins> The cobblestones have no undulation, I feel cheated.
[11:14] <jacobw> dwatkins: how?
[11:14] <AlanBell> that is quite a difference
[11:17] <directhex> here's The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim, on 2006's Xbox 360: http://gamingbolt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/oi5iq.jpg
[11:20] <directhex> the same game, on pc, with a few mods scattered about: http://barbarella.deadendthrills.com/imagestore/theelderscrollsvskyrim/2560/deadalive.jpg
[11:20] <directhex> oh here we go, a better comparable shot: http://barbarella.deadendthrills.com/imagestore/theelderscrollsvskyrim/2560/aircav.jpg
[11:21] <directhex> er, http://barbarella.deadendthrills.com/imagestore/theelderscrollsvskyrim/2560/arboretum.jpg
[11:21] <directhex> or http://barbarella.deadendthrills.com/imagestore/theelderscrollsvskyrim/2560/dawnofwar.jpg if you prefer
[11:21] <directhex> either way, that's the technology gap applied to the same game
[11:22] <jacobw> wow
[11:22] <directhex> or http://barbarella.deadendthrills.com/imagestore/theelderscrollsvskyrim/1920/greenzone.jpg is another nice one. generally, deadendthrills.com shows what a few mods can do with a pc game
[11:22] <jacobw> that's a remarkable difference
[11:23] <jacobw> how do the mods work?
[11:26] <directhex> jacobw, http://deadendthrills.com/index.php?cat=1643 explains the purpose of every mod used for deadendthrills screenshots
[11:26] <directhex> installing all the mods is *hard work*. i mostly just install the apchaii hair
[11:27] <jacobw> is that a texture?
[11:28] <directhex> there are some limited texture mods... most of skyrim's worst texture crimes were taken care of by the free 7 gig "high res texture pack"  dlc.
[11:29] <directhex> http://store.steampowered.com/app/202485/
[11:29] <MartijnVdS> I like how Half-Life (1) has a "high-res texture and model pack"
[11:29] <directhex> lots of inferior shaders though, which many mods try to address
[11:29] <MartijnVdS> but it's from 2000 or something so it's still not large (or very high-res) :)
[11:32] <directhex> those are the higher resolution models made for the dreamcast version of half-life
[11:32] <directhex> which was cancelled at the last minute
[11:32] <MartijnVdS> directhex: they're also used in Blue Shift
[11:33] <directhex> so all the dreamcast content - the high res models, and the mini campaign starring a guard, ended up in a standalone retail release for PC - blue shift
[11:33] <directhex> the main visible difference is scientists' ties are textures originally & separate polygons with the new models
[11:34] <MartijnVdS> the guns look a lot more detailed as well
[11:34] <MartijnVdS> and the berets of the military "captains" are black, not red
[11:35] <jacobw> Does Microsoft provide ISOs for installing Windows 7 now?
[11:36] <directhex> er, somewhere. hang on.
[11:36] <directhex> 32 or 64 bit?
[11:37] <directhex> and which version (home premium, professional, etc)
[11:37] <jacobw> 32bit professional
[11:37] <MartijnVdS> Yes
[11:37] <MartijnVdS> official ISOs are available
[11:38] <MartijnVdS> they work as a 30-day trial, unless you have a valid registration code (then they work as a full install)
[11:38] <directhex> http://msft.digitalrivercontent.net/win/X17-24280.iso
[11:38] <directhex> i think that's English Professional x86
[11:38] <jacobw> Thanks
[11:38] <MartijnVdS> I re-installed Win7 on my Vaio using that to get rid of Sony crapware
[11:39] <jacobw> VAIO is not Linux friendly IIRC
[11:39] <MartijnVdS> jacobw: mine is all-intel, and the 3G chip is even supported if you get the firmware from your Windows partition
[11:39] <MartijnVdS> even the fingerprint sensor works with a bit of hacking
[11:39] <jacobw> Huh, that's good
[11:41] <popey> morning
[12:14] <kvarley> Annoying...I just made a USB installer of ubuntu and it works on my laptop but will not boot on my desktop
[12:14] <kvarley> It accesses it then just says boot failure
[12:15] <kvarley> Hmmm apparently formatting the media in windows is supposed to work
[12:19] <kvarley> BIOS systems are so annoying because they're non-standard
[12:19] <kvarley> Some are amazing and some are utterly hopeless
[12:19] <MartijnVdS> kvarley: you haven't booted enough UEFI systems
[12:20] <penguin42> kvarley: When did you last see an amazing one?
[12:20] <kvarley> penguin42: I have an Asus board with a GUI BIOS which is amazing
[12:20] <kvarley> Every feature is easy to find and it works really well
[12:21] <kvarley> My laptop one can do all the things I need but it's hard to find stuff
[12:21] <kvarley> My desktop one is just awful unless you're messing with power settings or clock speeds then it's average
[12:21] <kvarley> Is there such thing as an open source bios?
[12:21] <penguin42> there is
[12:22] <kvarley> Any good?
[12:22] <penguin42> lookup coreboot
[12:22] <penguin42> kvarley: The problem is it has to be ported to each type of hardware
[12:22] <kvarley> penguin42: Do any hardware manufacturers ship an open source bios?
[12:23] <kvarley> Weirdly, making my usb installer in windows worked
[12:24] <penguin42> kvarley: not that I'm aware of; EFI itself I think is under an open license (or some part of it?)
[12:26] <kvarley> computer just hot rebooted
[12:28] <MartijnVdS> sounds fun
[12:29] <kvarley> Managed to get gparted loaded up
[12:29] <kvarley> So I'm one step closer
[12:29] <MartijnVdS> with random reboots, I'd be afraid to run that
[12:30] <kvarley> It's fine, everything is backed up
[12:30] <kvarley> Worst case I'll just wipe it all and start again
[12:30] <kvarley> Moving a 100 GB partition, only gonna take 5 mins. SSD win :)
[12:32] <MartijnVdS> took half an hour on my SSD
[12:32] <MartijnVdS> but that was NTFS, maybe that matters
[12:34] <directhex> er, moving how?
[12:35] <MartijnVdS> directhex: sda: | Dead space | sda1: Windows Partition | Free space |
[12:35] <MartijnVdS> directhex: after move:" sda: | sda1: Windows Partition | Free space |
[12:35] <directhex> so not LVM then
[12:35] <MartijnVdS> no, gparted
[12:35] <directhex> ok. there's a data loss bug when moving LVM partitions on an SSD
[12:36] <MartijnVdS> there is?
[12:36] <directhex> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lvm2/+bug/1082325
[12:36] <MartijnVdS> how would that work? over-eager TRIM?
[12:36] <directhex> yes, over-eager TRIM!
[12:38] <penguin42> hmm why's that only a medium on quantal
[12:38] <MartijnVdS> penguin42: because 3 people use LVM on SSD
[12:39] <penguin42> MartijnVdS: I doubt that!
[12:39] <MartijnVdS> okay, 5
[12:44] <penguin42> I guess it's an optional feature and only affects a pvmove which is relatively rare
[12:59] <celesteh> hello, i have a m-audio fast track ultra, which is a usb soundcard. It works fine with jack, but when i open the sound preferences pane to try to route normal system audio through it, it does not show up anywhere there.  can i use it with pulse audio, or is it jack only?
[13:06] <penguin42> does it show up in /proc/asound/cards ?
[13:13] <bigcalm_xoom> Goodness, am I still here?
[13:13] <jacobw> yes
[13:16] <bigcalm_xoom> Whoops :)
[13:20] <bigcalm_xoom> The tweet from this morning is the most popular thing I've ever done. 11 replies, 60 retweets and 17 favorites
[13:20] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm_xoom: what did you say now? ;)
[13:21] <bigcalm_xoom> Each time I unlock my phone there are more notifications waiting
[13:22] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm_xoom: what kind of graphics card do you have?
[13:22] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm_xoom: because I've been able to use multi-monitor since forever on intel
[13:24] <bigcalm_xoom> MartijnVdS: nvidia geforce gtx 660
[13:24] <MartijnVdS> hope it works after the next dist-upgrade then ;)
[13:24] <bigcalm_xoom> MartijnVdS: 2 DVI and 1 HDMI on the same card
[13:25] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm_xoom: I won't re-tell the story of re-installing the nvidia driver on coworkers' machines
[13:25] <MartijnVdS> ;)
[13:25] <bigcalm_xoom> MartijnVdS: I upgraded compiz and the system is already dead. I need to work out how to fix it
[13:26] <bigcalm_xoom> MartijnVdS: this setup was out of the box 12.10. I haven't installed binary drivers yet
[13:26] <MartijnVdS> bigcalm_xoom: wow, nouveau is getting better then :)
[13:28] <bigcalm_xoom> MartijnVdS: it is dog slow though. I want to install the nvidia binary, but I don't know if it will able able to still keep the setup I have
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> the nvidia tools should allow you to set it up similarly
[13:29] <bigcalm_xoom> Coffee be drank. Time to go shopping
[13:29] <MartijnVdS> but I don't think you can use the "normal" Ubuntu way
[13:30] <bigcalm_xoom> No, I think you are right there
[13:31] <bigcalm_xoom> I. Going to have to write a blog post to answer all of the questions
[13:31]  * bigcalm_xoom zooms away
[13:31] <bigcalm_xoom> Aww, I wrote xooms but it got auto corrected
[14:29] <mine> How can I save VLC Player downloaded from terminal as setup for future installations?
[14:50] <czajkowski> hmmm
[14:50] <czajkowski> sound seems to have gone
[14:50] <czajkowski> and no idea why
[14:50] <czajkowski> I can hear the drums on start up
[14:50] <czajkowski> then no sound on any other application
[14:50] <czajkowski> not even on the test sound
[14:50] <czajkowski> :/
[14:56]  * penguin42 wonders who gave me a bytemark rec - whoever it was thanks
[15:00] <czajkowski> I had sound
[15:00] <czajkowski> I was playing rhytmbox
[15:00] <czajkowski> and now nothing
[15:01] <czajkowski> this is very confusing
[15:01] <penguin42> czajkowski: There are a few things can happen; are you using pulse?
[15:02] <czajkowski> penguin42: if it's the default then yes
[15:02] <czajkowski> as I've never changed a setting
[15:02] <penguin42> ok
[15:02] <penguin42> czajkowski: so the most likely thing is you've muted it somehow
[15:03] <penguin42> czajkowski: but it's also possible something other than pulse grabbed the sound card, or that pulse is now sending it somewhere else - like up your HDMI connection if you have one
[15:03] <penguin42> czajkowski: what does the command   pactl info    say as the 'default sink'
[15:04] <czajkowski> when I go into the sound setting it can see an input
[15:04] <czajkowski> and an output looks to be not muted
[15:04] <czajkowski> but when I test left/right
[15:04] <czajkowski> nothing
[15:04] <czajkowski> most odd
[15:04] <czajkowski> Default Sink: alsa_output.pci-0000_00_1b.0.analog-stereo
[15:05] <penguin42> ok, that's good - sounds like an internal Intel audio
[15:05] <czajkowski> penguin42: I've rebooted twice and still not working though
[15:05] <penguin42> czajkowski: How about   lsof /dev/snd/*   is it all pulseaudi as the command?
[15:07] <czajkowski> penguin42: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1671627/
[15:07] <penguin42> czajkowski: Nope, lsof   it's a command
[15:08] <czajkowski> penguin42: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1671637/
[15:09]  * bigcalm sneaks in
[15:09] <penguin42> czajkowski: Yeh that's ok
[15:09] <penguin42> czajkowski: ok, can you pastebin the output of    amixer
[15:10] <czajkowski> penguin42: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1671652/
[15:12] <penguin42> hmm I think that's OK as well.  Hmm
[15:12] <penguin42> czajkowski: You on speaker or phones?
[15:12] <czajkowski> tis a bit odd
[15:12] <czajkowski> speaker
[15:12] <penguin42> ok
[15:14] <penguin42> czajkowski: Try installing paman and look at the properties on the sink
[15:14] <czajkowski> penguin42: ok will do
[15:14] <czajkowski> thanks
[15:16] <penguin42> czajkowski: You could also try  pasuspender  cat /bin/ls > /dev/snd/pcmC0D0p     which should sound truly awful
[15:17] <czajkowski> nothing
[15:18] <penguin42> hmm
[15:18] <penguin42> you've remembered to turn your amp on haven't you? :-)
[15:19] <czajkowski> just my laptop
[15:19] <czajkowski> this is really begining to confuse me
[15:20] <penguin42> czajkowski: Only thing I've got left is to run  alsamixer   and check all the options; any binary selectors just try flipping them and see if it springs into life
[15:22] <czajkowski> penguin42: thanks for the help
[15:22] <czajkowski> much appreciated
[15:22] <penguin42> let me know if you find out what did it
[15:28] <czajkowski> penguin42: went to other user and foud sound working
[15:28] <czajkowski> rebooted twice more
[15:28] <czajkowski> and now have sound
[15:29] <czajkowski> boggles
[15:30] <czajkowski> plan vlc and it stops
[15:30] <czajkowski> now back to square one
[15:32] <penguin42> hmm odd
[15:32] <penguin42> anything in dmesg?
[15:34] <czajkowski> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1671866/
[15:37] <penguin42> nothing interesting
[16:14] <bigcalm> Updated compiz and it doesn't like my system :(
[16:17] <penguin42> what did it do to you?
[16:20] <bigcalm> Pendulum: https://plus.google.com/113834766641843352499/posts/JMnvLfhYiDN
[16:21] <bigcalm> oops :)
[16:22] <bigcalm> penguin42:  https://plus.google.com/113834766641843352499/posts/JMnvLfhYiDN
[16:22] <bigcalm> Pendulum: sorry :)
[16:23]  * penguin42 swings
[16:24] <penguin42> bigcalm: Looks like graphics driver to me - text console+mouse pointer is quaint
[16:24] <bigcalm> penguin42: that's what I thought :)
[16:24] <bigcalm> penguin42: except that it's the default graphics driver that comes with Ubuntu 12.10
[16:24] <penguin42> which hardware?
[16:25] <bigcalm> nVidia GeForce GTX 660
[16:25] <bigcalm> But using the free driver that comes with xorg
[16:25] <penguin42> any crash info in /var/log/Xorg.0.log or /var/log/lightdm ?
[16:27] <penguin42> bigcalm: You're dual head with one on its side?
[16:28] <penguin42> bigcalm: The nouveau driver on 12.10 is a bit touchy for me; I run with KDE, have to disable the OpenGL effects for it to work, and also it's a bit touchy when switching monitors on my work laptop; some monitors if I boot with it plugged in it's unhappy but if I add the monitor later it's OK; some are fine either way
[16:29] <bigcalm> penguin42: http://www.myrant.net/2013/02/17/multi-screen-with-ubuntu-unity/
[16:31] <penguin42> bigcalm: Nice - Yeh I think you found _the_ working combination of unity/graphics driver that worked :-(
[16:31] <bigcalm> Worked once
[16:32] <penguin42> nod
[16:33] <bigcalm> I'm on my laptop atm. Might go and pastebinit on the xorg log
[16:33] <penguin42> nod
[16:33] <BigRedS> myrant.net? There's a domain I'll be forever envious of
[16:34] <penguin42> you wouldn't think myrant would go well with bigcalm would you?
[16:34] <BigRedS> haha!
[16:34] <jacobw> lol
[16:34] <BigRedS> Yeah, I'd not noticed that
[16:34] <bigcalm> :D
[16:35] <bigcalm> BigRedS: I also own and use idophp.co.uk :)
[16:35] <penguin42> I guess someone has to!
[16:35] <bigcalm> :P
[16:36] <BigRedS>  yeah, I'd be less proud of that one :)
[16:37] <bigcalm> Pfft
[16:38] <bigcalm> I don't use smutsmith.com as much as I'd like to ;)
[16:38] <penguin42> bigcalm: While nouveau is a heck of a lot better than it was, it's still touchy with multiple monitors is my experience
[16:39] <penguin42> but at least it seems stable when you get it in a mood it likes
[16:39] <bigcalm> penguin42: I don't think that my problem right now is to do with multiple monitors.
[16:39] <penguin42> bigcalm: OK
[16:39] <bigcalm> penguin42: I've updated compiz, not the gfx driver
[16:41]  * bigcalm nips off to do the pastebin thing
[16:51] <bigcalm> Humm. Just booted and it's all working just fine
[16:51] <bigcalm> Grr at computers
[16:51] <penguin42> haha
[16:55] <bigcalm> Now to ever so slowly pick my way though each of the 236 remaining updates
[16:57] <penguin42> not just going for it?
[17:01] <bigcalm> penguin42: no. Because that video is the result of 'just going for it'
[17:02] <bigcalm> The video also depicted my view once upgrading compiz on its own, hence posting it
[17:05] <bigcalm> Humm. Spotify likes to freeze the whole desktop now and then. That's a new feature
[17:15] <Azelphur> is Skype for Linux still terrible, I abandoned ship a couple of years ago
[17:16] <bigcalm> Azelphur: I prefer it over the Windows version
[17:16] <bigcalm> Azelphur: and use it daily
[17:16] <Azelphur> that sounds promising o.O
[17:17] <Azelphur> I've been anti-skype ever since their android/linux bullshit
[17:18] <bigcalm> !ohmy | Azelphur
[17:18]  * Azelphur shrugs
[17:18] <Azelphur> it's hard to use a nice word ;)
[17:23] <BigRedS> what's their android/linux, er, stuff?
[17:23] <BigRedS> I've only ever used it on those two platforms
[17:23] <BigRedS> I dislike it for the UI being atrocious more than anything else, but I don't imagine it's any better on Windows
[17:24] <bigcalm> It's more irritating on Windows
[17:24] <penguin42> Azelphur: I guess you'll have to stick to turlingdrome, swut, joojooflop or ...Belgium
[17:25] <Azelphur> BigRedS: in the early android days, there was no Skype client, people made gateway apps which Skype actively blocked.
[17:25] <Azelphur> as for Linux, lack of support/updates
[17:26] <Azelphur> penguin42: Belgium sounds fun
[17:28] <penguin42>  <shock>
[17:29] <Azelphur> back when I used skype 2.x, it'd continually crash (silently) and leak memory \o/
[17:30] <Azelphur> so I'm sort of hesitant to give it another go, might do though
[17:30] <Azelphur> what with MSN disappearing and all.
[17:40] <penguin42> Google talk?
[17:40] <Azelphur> yea, google talk and IRC are always my best ports of call.
[17:41] <MartijnVdS> https://twitter.com/alyankovic/status/303196218807439360
[17:45] <jacobw> Skype 4 is good
[17:46] <Azelphur> fun
[18:35] <BigRedS> Azelphur: Skype's always worked for me. I use it incredibly infrequently, though
[18:35] <Azelphur> fun
[18:35] <Azelphur> as I say I was never disputing it working, just it being terrible
[18:35] <BigRedS> I'd use something else, but there isn't really a free replacement
[18:35] <Azelphur> indeed, there needs to be a decent replacement
[18:36] <Azelphur> although, ekiga 4 looks pretty awesome
[19:08] <AlanBell> free -m
[19:09] <AlanBell> gah
[19:09] <AlanBell> too many keyboards on this desk
[19:09] <zleap> lol
[19:11] <BigRedS> Synergy!
[19:12] <BigRedS> (also, it's 2013. update your muscle memory to free -g)
[19:15] <czajkowski> penguin42: killall pulseaudio gives me back sound
[19:23] <penguin42> czajkowski: Hmm
[19:24] <AlanBell> not more pulseaudio /o\
[19:24]  * bigcalm slithers in and hugs Ubuntu
[19:24] <AlanBell> it is fixed now surely
[19:24] <bigcalm> System seems to be playing ball this evening so far.
[19:25] <bigcalm> When loading an app in unity, is is possible to tell it which of my 3 screens it should start on?
[19:27] <Azelphur> Anyone here who's good at VOIP, is it somehow possible to map my own domain to call me, without running my own VOIP server?
[19:27] <Azelphur> maybe SRV records or something?
[19:28] <BigRedS> yeah, voip uses srv records
[19:28] <BigRedS> so you'd set up voip srv records pointing at whoever provides your voip
[19:28] <BigRedS> they should tell you what they should be
[19:28] <Azelphur> that's sweet :o
[19:29] <Azelphur> I'm with sipgate.co.uk
[19:29] <AlanBell> just updated offspring computers running 12.10, wondering if 13.04 will be a performance boost for them
[19:29] <BigRedS> the record is something like _sip._tcp.domain , but I can never remember.
[19:29] <BigRedS> 13.04 was just a massive pile of crashes for me
[19:31] <penguin42> AlanBell: My boot time on 13.04 is much better than 12.10 was
[19:32] <penguin42> AlanBell: It also looks like 13.04 has just switched to low latency kernels that should be intersting
[19:32] <AlanBell> I am running 13.04 with no drama on my laptop, but that is a core i3 with 8GB ram and SSD. The kids have atom class computers with 1 or 2GB and spinning rust disks
[19:33] <penguin42> AlanBell: Nod, I do worry that sometimes devs only test for SSD speed these days; but the ARM stuff has got to help for running in reduced RAM/speed CPUs
[19:35] <AlanBell> I might have to get my eldest a new computer running windows and office and publisher :(
[19:35] <penguin42> :-(
[19:35] <penguin42> why publisher?
[19:35] <AlanBell> apparently she is about to get her school report which will ask her to use the same software at home as at school
[19:36] <penguin42> yeuch
[19:36]  * AlanBell will be blogging that bit of the report if it turns out to be the case
[19:37] <DJones> AlanBell: Do they provide the Windows & Office suite for free?
[19:38] <dwatkins> my concern with this is that not knowing Windows applications might be a disadvantage, even though understanding the principles behind word processing etc. is obviously more useful
[19:38] <AlanBell> nope, and it seems student version of windows 8 and office is £170 on top of the laptop price
[19:39] <dwatkins> there was a scheme in Berkshire a couple years ago where a child could get a laptop and a year's worth of 3G internet for free.
[19:39] <AlanBell> so £499 for a random laptop with office home & student and windows 8 then on top of that it will need virus junk because it is a windows computer
[19:39] <AlanBell> oh and publisher
[19:40] <DJones> Thats pretty poor from the school
[19:40] <AlanBell> which is another £100
[19:40] <dwatkins> is there an online version?
[19:40] <dwatkins> kinda like google docs
[19:40] <penguin42> office365?
[19:41] <AlanBell> dunno, that is the other sucky thing, I know nothing about this stuff
[19:41] <AlanBell> anyhow, I will wait for the report
[19:41] <penguin42> AlanBell: It would be an interesting task to make sure that capability/compatibility issues are filed against Libreoffice/etc - it's sometimes interesting to see what's still missing
[19:42] <AlanBell> most homework these days consists of downloading pictures from the internet (with no attribution or consideration for content licensing, they don't teach that) and adding captions and text around them
[19:42] <dwatkins> the kids will get a shock when they get to uni and all their work is checked for copying
[19:42] <dwatkins> automatically
[19:43] <AlanBell> yeah, it is totally bogus
[19:43] <AlanBell> they are not allowed to use wikipedia (which I consider a perfectly valid starting point) but they can copy crap from any other random website without peer review
[19:43] <dwatkins> lolwut
[19:44] <dwatkins> that's completely topsy-turvy
[19:44] <AlanBell> yeah, education has a bit of a problem with wikipedia, it is considered a bad source because they don't understand how it works
[19:45] <dwatkins> I admit I'm not sure how articles are checked or what happens in terms of people defacing them.
[19:45] <bigcalm> AlanBell: have you considered home schooling? ;)
[19:45] <MartijnVdS> you use wikipedia to find proper sources, right? :)
[19:45] <dwatkins> I do know that it tends to be fairly accurate, however.
[19:45] <AlanBell> they get fixed within seconds
[19:45] <MartijnVdS> they're at the bottom
[19:45] <AlanBell> yeah, I know how to use wikipedia :)
[19:45] <dwatkins> and as MartijnVdS says, sources are cited, as they should be in any homework/paper/thesis
[19:45] <MartijnVdS> AlanBell: time to educate some educators
[19:46] <AlanBell> MartijnVdS: I am looking forward to blogging about the situation
[19:46] <popey> Evening!
[19:46] <AlanBell> but then I will probably have to just spend the £600
[19:46] <AlanBell> and then spend it again for the other two \o/
[19:46] <dwatkins> AlanBell: presumably they think that experience with MS Publisher would be to the kids' advantage.
[19:47] <dwatkins> never used it myself, and I can use most word processors easily enough without spending an hour reading the documentation (apart from LaTeX perhaps)
[19:47] <bigcalm> Good evening popey
[19:48] <AlanBell> they might well do. I have never ever ever seen anyone use it since about publisher for windows 95
[19:48] <popey> Nobody uses publisher outside education and church newsletters
[19:48] <czajkowski> I know some people who home school, but honestly I think it's gonna do kids a disadvantage of not learning how to socialise at an early start
[19:48] <dwatkins> indeed - I used some GEM-based publishing package in the early 1990s, havn't touched a similar application since. I suspect publishing houses either have their own, or use normal word processing apps.
[19:48] <AlanBell> yeah, I am not home schooling
[19:49] <popey> i dont think the kids at our school get told what to use at home
[19:49] <popey> i know at least one kid uses a chromebook, so google docs
[19:49] <popey> clare gets sent email from it
[19:49] <dwatkins> much more sensible approach
[19:49] <czajkowski> anyone on 13.04 can you please go to the login screen and click on shut down - does it actually shut down
[19:49] <AlanBell> I was going to get my younger daughter a chromebook when they do the next ARM one
[19:49] <dwatkins> use whatever software you have, so long as the end result is appropriate
[19:50] <AlanBell> indeed
[19:50] <popey> it would be like mandating the make and model of pen and paper they are told to use
[19:50] <AlanBell> exactly
[19:50] <ahayzen> popey, they have tried tht in some schools aswell ;)
[19:50] <czajkowski> popey: ah see we had the pen and paper in primary school, especially for joined up writing to teach us
[19:50] <dwatkins> the class below me complained they were told to get a specific graphical calculator, as they were quite expensive
[19:51] <czajkowski> had to write within the blue lines and then go to the top and bottom red lines for some letters
[19:51] <dwatkins> not sure what the end result was, mind
[19:51] <Azelphur> hmm, Ekiga 4.0 doesn't seem to work too well, no matter what I do with it I get a "Transport error"
[19:51] <popey> well, for my kids age, yes pencil/paper
[19:51] <AlanBell> we did have to get a specific scientific calculator, but it was £7.95
[19:51] <popey> but clare teaches 15 year olds
[19:51] <czajkowski> hows the arm doing?
[19:52] <popey> 1 week left!
[19:52] <AlanBell> and they do specify a uniform supplier
[19:52] <czajkowski> popey: \o/
[19:52] <AlanBell> so schools can and do endorse specific businesses and require parents to spend money there
[19:52] <popey> yeah, we have to get uniforms from a shop in reading
[19:52] <czajkowski> hmmm wonder if i cant shut down as I've signed into guest ac
[19:52] <czajkowski> this is baffling me today
[19:53] <popey> "cant shut down" has been a bug for years on and off
[19:54] <AlanBell> but it just irritates me a bit that my kids each have their own computers running lots of software and can do everything that I do in my daily job, but the school apparently wants me to throw that away and spend £1800 (when all three get there) on computers that do less.
[19:54] <AlanBell> or have them all share one computer or something
[19:54] <AlanBell> and fight over who gets to do homework on it at specific times, so that doesn't really work
[19:54] <czajkowski> popey: ahh
[19:55] <AlanBell> "doesn't suspend" is another irritating bug
[19:55] <AlanBell> I really really really want there to be a non-negotiable suspend
[19:55] <popey> windows "doesn't suspend" for me
[19:56] <diplo> Evening all
[19:56] <bigcalm> popey: I think it was when you retweeted me that my popularity exploded :) Amusing that even omgubuntu retweeted me as well
[19:56] <bigcalm> Morning diplo
[19:57] <dwatkins> suspend can be stopped by an application? wow
[19:57] <popey> sweet!
[19:57] <popey> sophie was doing ballet today, so I had a few hours afk which was nice
[19:58] <bigcalm> Once I gave in and bought an ssd just for Ubuntu, 12.10 has been the best 'out of box' experience for me so far. Well done team :)
[19:59] <popey> oh excellent
[19:59] <popey> showed sophie how to add things to hers (and mine and mummys) calendar today
[19:59] <popey> I expect lots of things to get added soon
[19:59] <dwatkins> same here, my netbook flies along with an SSD in it, nice one :)
[20:00] <ali1234> i have never seen any computer suspend reliably except for macs
[20:00] <popey> wifeys mbp refused to suspend recently
[20:01] <popey> known issue apparently
[20:01] <popey> i think it's steam stopping windows suspending for me
[20:01] <ali1234> phones seem to be able to do it
[20:02] <popey> \o/ Ubuntu Phone can!
[20:02] <ali1234> i find it funny that all the companies jumping on the "mobile" bandwagon put lots of effort into redesigning the UI but don't fix things like making suspend work
[20:02] <popey> battery life on ubuntu phone is (surprisingly - hah) good!
[20:02] <ali1234> yeeeaaaah i'll believe that when i see it
[20:03] <popey> meh, I don't care
[20:03] <diplo> popey: Running one, or just from info ?
[20:03] <popey> I've seen it, that's good enough for my eyeballs
[20:03] <bigcalm> :)
[20:03] <popey> it's an android kernel, so hardly surprising ☺
[20:04] <bigcalm> Who has run off with my ps2 to usb adapter? I want to use my unicomp keyboard!
[20:04] <popey> i dont think we've got application suspending nailed yet, that's "to do"
[20:05] <BigRedS> ali1234: it's like the desktop. All the hard problems get ignored while the solutions to the easy ones are rewritten
[20:05] <ali1234> BigRedS: yes, exactly
[20:05] <BigRedS> And, just as New Thing is ready enough that the hard problems can be worked on, we need a New New Thing
[20:06] <popey> oh I dunno, sound seems not to have been re-written for a while, since pulse came along
[20:06] <popey> x badly needs replacing
[20:06] <BigRedS> yeah, that's why we keep getting new DEs isn't it?
[20:07] <BigRedS> gnome 2 didn't *need* replacing. It just needed finishing
[20:07] <BigRedS> And now gnome 3 and Unity need finishing
[20:07] <popey> gnome 2 didnt need replacing for some users
[20:07] <BigRedS> which doesn't sound hugely like progress
[20:08] <popey> not sure how well gnome 2 works on phones / tablets
[20:08] <popey> and TVs
[20:08] <ali1234> please stop calling it gnome 2
[20:08] <ali1234> it's actually called gnome-panel
[20:09] <ali1234> and it works on gnome 3
[20:09] <BigRedS> yeah, so now we've new DEs that are as bad there as they are on the desktops? There's still a load of daft problems either in Unity or Gnome or in whatever underlying thing they share
[20:09] <BigRedS> like NetworkManager, as I keep ranting about :)
[20:10] <popey> you know what people mean when they say "gnome 2"
[20:10] <ali1234> what's wrong with NM? i love it
[20:10] <popey> "the two panel interface which people know when someone says gnome 2"
[20:10] <popey> +1 on NM
[20:10] <ali1234> it does everything and it just works
[20:10] <popey> not perfect but good
[20:10] <ali1234> VPNs, connection sharing...
[20:10] <popey> not good for phones
[20:10]  * AlanBell hugs gnome shell
[20:10] <ali1234> all that stuff was a right pain before
[20:11] <BigRedS> I think if I could tell it that I only wanted it to ever do anything with my WiFi interface it'd be okay
[20:11] <BigRedS> but it keeps breaking other things
[20:11] <ali1234> you can tell it that
[20:11] <BigRedS> no you can't
[20:11] <ali1234> you can specify to ignore interfaces
[20:11] <ali1234> and it will
[20:11] <BigRedS> you can tell it which devices to not interfere with, but not which ones to interfere with
[20:11] <AlanBell> Unity might work kind of well on a phone where you don't want lots of applications running
[20:12] <AlanBell> or lot of windows of one application
[20:12] <ali1234> why is that a prblem though? just tell it about all of your devices
[20:12] <BigRedS> my last problem was with virt-manager which didn't seem to have a predictable mac for its bridge
[20:12] <AlanBell> dunno if gnome-shell is supposed to work on mobile devices
[20:12] <ali1234> ah yes, if you have randomly changing macs NM does not work well at all
[20:13] <popey> moving from WWAN to LAN and back seamlessly doesn't work either
[20:13] <ali1234> how could it?
[20:13] <BigRedS> I've also never worked out how to make it stop overwriting resolvconf changes. I want the same search domains whatever network I'm on, but it always switces back
[20:13] <popey> which i think is one reason why connman exists, and the personality causes flimflam to exist
[20:13] <BigRedS> how could it work with randomly changing macs? I want to give it a list of macs that it should care about and have it ignore the rest
[20:14] <ali1234> no i mean how could it seamlessly switch from WWAN to LAN?
[20:14] <BigRedS> I only ever use it to connect to a wifi network, I don't want it pissing around with anything else, especially since when I do have anything else it's not something I've done in nm
[20:14] <BigRedS> oh, good
[20:14] <ali1234> that's going to cause all your connections to drop no matter what
[20:15] <diplo> Only issue I have with NM is when I'm using a vpn, the routing vpn gateway switch doesn't work
[20:18] <popey> \o/ hot baguettes & pate for tea
[20:18] <bigcalm> Nom
[20:22]  * AlanBell has irish brown bread with marmalade on it for tea
[20:22]  * AlanBell is thinking about not using a CMS for exceptionalemails.com
[20:22] <AlanBell> writing the UI in python and html
[20:23] <AlanBell> and writing my own paypal subscription integration later
[20:23] <BigRedS> you're all about reinventing the wheel :)
[20:23] <BigRedS> but, yeah, a CMS does seem like massive overkill just to get user auth
[20:23] <popey> i wouldn't do paypal if I were you
[20:23] <AlanBell> well yeah but it is so much easier!
[20:24] <popey> I'd use stripe, ribbon or gumroad
[20:24] <AlanBell> doing the smtpd in python was much easier than using exim
[20:24] <daubers> AlanBell: Just use django? it has inbuilt user auth stuffs too
[20:24] <AlanBell> django is a possibility
[20:25] <AlanBell> popey: thanks for those suggestions, stripe looks good
[20:25] <AlanBell> never heard of any of them before
[20:26] <ali1234> use bitcoins
[20:26] <AlanBell> yeah, happy to accept bitcoin
[20:26] <ali1234> use django if you don't want to use a cms
[20:27] <ali1234> definitely don't use drupal since it gives you all the hassles of a cms with none of the features
[20:28] <AlanBell> initially it is going to be a free service for a beta period, but I want to design in chargable subscriptions for later
[20:33] <bigcalm> AlanBell: what about security of emails being stored on the server?
[20:34] <AlanBell> they are pretty secure
[20:34] <AlanBell> and I have various purging options
[20:36] <AlanBell> so I can drop the body from the database as soon as it arrives for example, just search it for the regex the user wants to search for, like must not contain "failed" and if it is OK, drop the body
[20:36] <AlanBell> if it is a failure, notify and keep the body
[20:36] <BigRedS> mail_location = /dev/null/%d/%u
[20:36] <AlanBell> or people can choose to keep all the emails in full if they want
[20:38] <AlanBell> I will be advising people not to send emails with their IP address and passwords and file names and to generally think about what they are sending
[20:48] <AlanBell> !info python-django
[20:49]  * AlanBell ponders versions of things
[20:50] <AlanBell> 1.6 is the new hotness, we have 1.3 in precise, 1.4.1 in quantal and 1.4.3 in raring
[20:51] <BigRedS> Do you need anything in 1.6 that's not in 1.3?
[20:52] <AlanBell> well 1.3 is the flat layout and 1.4+ isn't
[20:52] <AlanBell> it creates a subdirectory under manage.py
[20:54]  * AlanBell decides to develop on raring
[21:01] <zleap> ah 13.04
[21:01] <zleap> the one we wanted to call rampent rabbit
[21:08] <AlanBell> yeah, that one
[21:08] <AlanBell> django seems about right, I haven't done a django project from scratch before, just patched existing ones
[21:09] <AlanBell> it is fairly raw to the database which is what I need
[21:15] <ali1234> django isn't much more than an ORM and MVC templates framework
[21:21] <AlanBell> yeah, I disliked it a lot when working on summit and loco directory but I like it for this
[21:22] <AlanBell> for those things I really didn't want to give a toss about schema changes, it made me too aware of the database for a CMS application
[21:32] <AlanBell> django is nice because I can write directly to the database from other applications without being too scared about doing so
[21:54] <ali1234> you dont need to though: there's no reason not to use django orm from a command line app
[21:54] <ali1234> and it makes writing command line admin scripts really easy
[21:57] <bigcalm> Is it possible to specify which workspace and monitor an app should appear on when loaded?
[22:01] <bigcalm> popey or AlanBell ^^ ?
[22:04] <redtape-renegade> Apparently Ubuntu doesn't update it's tweet button [0] on the Ubuntu for Android homepage | http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android | with a simple search .. you can see many have tweeted the message :  https://twitter.com/search?q=%23U4A&src=typd
[22:04] <redtape-renegade> #U4A -1
[22:06] <redtape-renegade> How do I file a bug for that ?
[22:11] <Laney> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website
[22:11] <redtape-renegade> opening....
[22:12] <AlanBell> ali1234: ooh, interesting point, I probably should do that
[22:13] <AlanBell> bigcalm: I have no idea
[22:13] <bigcalm> AlanBell: ta
[22:15] <bigcalm> Multimedia keyboard, can I tie the music controls to Spotify? :)
[22:20] <ali1234> bigcalm: you can with unity webapps and experimental spotify web interface, if that's still a thing
[22:20] <ali1234> you might have to program it all yourself though
[22:21] <mgdm> bigcalm: spotify speaks dbus, so I'm sure it's possible
[22:21] <mgdm> I've thought about it but not had enough round tuits yet
[22:40] <redtape-renegade> Bug #1128460
[22:59] <ali1234> hmm regarding the aaron seigo post, do we know that ubuntu phone actually uses QML for the unity parts?
[23:00] <ali1234> it could be just the developer API, with unity using something else
[23:02] <ali1234> where smething else == libnux on libhybris/surface flinger