[00:00] <SonikkuAmerica> ecips: I'm out of ideas... you said you Googled this, right?
[00:00] <ecips> Yeah
[00:01] <ecips> I'm a 15 year linux user, co-founder of Linux Australia - I'm fairly capable with Linux. This one has me a bit stumped however :)
[00:01] <ecips> I cant see anything in straces I'm taking either
[00:04] <SonikkuAmerica> ecips: I've noticed it's a silent fail. I'm just a college student with ~3-4 years of strictly Ubuntu, and I've never seen this happen in a stable release, but in unstable stuff (such as 13.04 now) this is bound to happen.
[00:04] <ecips> Yeah - life on the bleeding edge :)
[00:05] <ecips> Doesnt seem to be kernel related
[00:06] <SonikkuAmerica> Hmm... is this Kubuntu by any chance?
[00:10] <ecips> No
[00:10] <ecips> xubuntu
[00:10] <ecips> I hate Unity :)
[00:12] <SonikkuAmerica> OK. This pulseaudio-is-broken frequently happens in Kubuntu though, that's why I asked.
[00:19] <ecips> Seems switching to alsa in mplayer makes it work again
[00:20] <ecips> Yeah - definitely Pulse that is broken
[00:20] <ecips> I wonder if there are any packages in incoming.....
[00:22] <SonikkuAmerica> ecips: Just use ALSA until Pulse gets fixed.
[00:22] <ecips> Yeah
[00:22] <ecips> Pulse is not well loved by a lot of people :)
[00:23] <ecips> Thanks for your input anyway :)
[00:23] <SonikkuAmerica> You're welcome
[00:23] <ecips> Maybe you can help me be lazy and help me figure out another annoying thing..... :)
[00:24] <ecips> I'm using the nvidia proprietary driver, and it's not saving my damn display settings.
[00:24] <ecips> reverts back to a single screen after I reboot
[00:25] <SonikkuAmerica> [ sudo apt-get install nvidia-settings ] if you don't have it.
[00:26] <ecips> Yeah - got that
[00:26] <ecips> The settings app works fine
[00:27] <ecips> but the settings arent saved
[00:29] <SonikkuAmerica> ecips: Are you using the nVidia X driver?
[00:29] <SonikkuAmerica> ecips: A message would appear at nvidia-settings startup if you aren't
[00:29] <ecips> yes - as I said - the proprietary one
[00:30] <SonikkuAmerica> ecips: Then set up the display stuff the way you want it, open up nvidia-settings and click "Save to X Configuration File"
[00:31] <ecips> yeah yeah - done all that :)
[00:31] <ecips> it doesnt stick
[00:32] <SonikkuAmerica> Maybe it just doesn't like your xorg.conf
[00:33] <SonikkuAmerica> But then again, this is an alpha. Don't count on stuff working. You might try creating a BASH script though.
[00:37] <ecips> :)
[00:40] <ecips> xorg.conf is on the way out :)
[00:40] <ecips> /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/
[00:40] <ecips> is where it is at these days :)
[00:41] <SonikkuAmerica> NO! THEY SPLIT XORG.CONF!
[00:44] <ecips> :)
[00:44] <ecips> Looks like disper might be the tool I need
[00:59] <bjsnider> pulse is well loved by a lot of people actually
[00:59] <bjsnider> we're out of the growing pains phase now
[00:59] <bjsnider> the diapers are off
[01:04] <ecips> bjsnider, It's just broken right now :)
[01:11] <bjsnider> if this is in a vb guest image, it's not the only thing that's broken
[01:18] <bjsnider> LP: #1124660
[01:19] <ecips> nah, pulse is broken somehow
[02:05] <ahsdak> hi
[02:05] <ahsdak> anybody here?
[02:05] <ahsdak> I've just upgraded to 13.04 and the sound does not work
[02:39] <ecips> pulseaudio is probably broken
[02:39] <ecips> try installing pavucontrol
[02:39] <ecips> see if that fixes it
[02:40] <ecips> otherwise, just change your apps to use ALSA and wait patiently until it is fixed
[02:40] <ecips> ugh
[02:40] <ecips> he's gone
[02:53] <IdleOne> ecips: he waited longer then most
[02:53] <IdleOne> :)
[03:18] <avis-> is it possible for me to install 12.10 ubuntu on a 2012 mid or late mac mini ?
[03:18] <avis-> i'm not banned from #ubuntu but am not able to talk
[03:39] <bjsnider> avis-, unlikely anybody in here knows
[03:39] <bjsnider> try the live cd
[03:42] <IdleOne> avis-: I removed the ban that was likely preventing you from speaking in #ubuntu. Please use the appropriate channel for support and remember to follow the !guidelines.
[03:43] <IdleOne> if you're still unable to send to channel join #ubuntu-ops and we can see what needs to be fixed.
[10:55] <vivid> seems some issues have arisen from the recent pulseaudio update
[11:13] <ironhalik> vivid: the sound stops working? :>
[11:13] <vivid> not entirely, but its problematic
[11:13] <vivid> rhythmbox, for example, is really picky on whether it wants to play my music
[12:04] <oldude67> where can i download the new release?
[12:04] <smartboyhw> oldude67, cdimage.ubuntu.com
[12:04] <oldude67> smartboyhw, ty
[12:29] <oldude67> what are some of the main issues with 13.04
[12:45] <ecips> vivid: I agree, pulseaudio is broken badly.
[13:37] <BluesKaj> Hey all
[13:40] <ecips> Good evening :)
[13:49] <ecips> pulseaudio now appears to be fixed :)
[13:50] <BluesKaj> ecips,yeah a pulse upgrade is in the repos
[13:50] <ecips> installed and working :)
[13:51] <BluesKaj> actually I didn't have a problem with it
[13:51] <ecips> now they just need to fix pidgin and I will be a happy man again :)
[13:51] <BluesKaj> not that I like having to use it
[13:52] <ecips> What else gives multiple simultaneous access to the sound devices however?
[13:52] <BluesKaj> if html5 were implemented on websites then I wouldn't need pulse
[13:53] <ecips> Need pulse to watch pr0n!! :p
[13:53] <ecips> esound?
[13:53] <BluesKaj> not here
[13:53] <BluesKaj> alsa does the job
[13:54] <ecips> alsa doesnt allow multiple apps to play sound at the same time
[13:55] <BluesKaj> i don't use multiple apps to play sound ..one app at a time
[13:56] <ecips> I've got VM's and such running which would not get sound otherwise.
[14:03] <tux__> recent pulseaudio update just borked my sound
[14:03] <tux__> any ideas folks?
[14:04] <ecips> update again
[14:04] <ecips> there is a fixed one
[14:04] <ecips> 2 hours ago
[14:04] <tux__> er.. i just updated right now
[14:04] <BluesKaj> my understanding is that alsa was designed to do all that but a particular developer had the ear of the canonical managers and got his pet app that he helped build into ubuntu on 9.04 and that was beginning of the of further alsa development for multiple apps ...it was mostly political
[14:05] <ecips> 1:3.0-0ubuntu2
[14:05] <ecips> Is that the version you have?
[14:05] <BluesKaj> begining of rhe end
[14:05] <ecips> BluesKaj, I dont believe that to be the case.
[14:05] <tux__> ecips, which package version are you referring to
[14:06] <ecips> The pulseaudio developer actually canned the shit out of the way Ubuntu implemented pulse.
[14:06] <ecips> tux__, pulseaudio
[14:06] <ecips> dpkg -l pulseaudio
[14:06] <tux__> ecips, i recall that, he said when they first used it
[14:07] <tux__> he commented that they didn't do a stellar job implementing it
[14:07] <BluesKaj> that was the story that going around on the ubuntu chats in late 2008, ecips ..I remember it well
[14:07] <tux__> 1:3.0-0ubunt amd64
[14:07] <ecips> heh - make your terminal screen wider
[14:07] <ecips> :)
[14:07] <BluesKaj> ppl were dumping pulseaudio as soon as they upgraded
[14:08] <ecips> apt-cache show pulseaudio|grep Vers
[14:08] <tux__>  1:3.0-0ubuntu2
[14:08] <ecips> Well, thats the one that fixed it for me
[14:08] <ecips> have you rebooted?
[14:08] <tux__> yes i have
[14:09] <BluesKaj> apt-cache policy pulseaudio works too
[14:09] <ecips> BluesKaj, So many ways to skin a cat :)
[14:10] <ecips> tux__, So what are the symptoms you are seeing?
[14:11] <tux__> er.. no pulse ;)
[14:11] <BluesKaj> well, pulseaudio has been allowed to develop into an app that actually works where as alsa is till being upgraded in order to run properly under pulse , but that 's all
[14:11] <ecips> so the server isnt running?
[14:11] <tux__> daemon is already running afaik
[14:12] <tux__> pidof pulseaudio
[14:12] <tux__> 1485
[14:14] <alankila> I have a developer perspective to pulseaudio. Not someone who has written anything in it, but something against it. Pulseaudio is actually simple and pretty to use, especially for simple cases. It's about as good as one other favorite audio abstraction called libao
[14:15] <alankila> also I liked the fact that pulseaudio allows one-place configuration of the resampling algorithm rather than having alsa pick some linear interpolation thing which is pretty aliasy for that purpose, though it is possible to write sound .asoundrc that changes that
[14:15] <alankila> sound=some
[14:16] <alankila> so anyway it has full support for me. libasound2 is a horrible API. It takes 100-line program merely to open an audio device and set it up for some bit depth, sample rate, and buffer sizes, where pulse accomplishes all that in single function call.
[14:17] <alankila> and writing .asoundrc files is so hard that the entire capability of configuring alsa might just as well not exist
[14:17] <BluesKaj> alankila, I'm regretting the lack od development in alsa , it worked fine without pulse for my needs , now alsa doesn't link to webaudio anymore , especially on pci soundcards , my old pc with integrated audio still doesn't need pulse
[14:18] <alankila> alsa's problem is, imho, that it's a 2nd system effect design. OSS was clearly limited and clunky, but ALSA went overboard with flexibility just trying to support every audio feature there might be. In the meantime, all everyone else wanted was something simple and obvious to use.
[14:19] <ecips> alankila, The plague of open sores software :)
[14:19] <alankila> Perhaps if ALSA had worked out how to do dmix before, pulse would not have happened. We shall never know. What did happen was that arts and esound got invented, and I guess they both sucked.
[14:19] <tux__> when i run alsamixer, all it shows is S/PDIF  :(
[14:19] <ecips> pulse seems to be the last man standing
[14:20] <ecips> tux__, pavucontrol
[14:20] <tux__> oh i forgot about that ;)
[14:21] <alankila> the thing is, I do think we need userspace sound daemons, because users expect capabilities like routing audio to headsets. ALSA is a raw hardware interface, and it needs to be "virtualized", so there is actually a need for something that sits atop it.
[14:23] <alankila> I simply wish pulse was designed better. Audio is such a simple problem for modern computing systems, you could do a lot to make it more convenient. Get rid of all the weird sample formats, only support floating point audio; expose audio as a ring buffer with a function that fetches the play cursor position that hardware has read, so you can control latency by deciding how far ahead of the play cursor you are writing, etc.
[14:24] <ecips> alankila, You havent allowed for the Apple and Microsoft factor :)
[14:24] <alankila> but anyway, I'm rambling. None of this changes anything.
[14:24] <ecips> When there is a standard, break it as soon as possible.
[14:24] <BluesKaj> yeah for ppl who , for some reason, need several audio sources running simultaneously, something that i don't need
[14:25] <alankila> well, apple's coreaudio uses floating point, and I'm not aware when they have broken it since designing it; microsoft uses the memory-mapped audio ring buffer concept in directsound and I love it
[14:25] <alankila> this shit is pretty easy if you just copied the best of what your competition has already done for years
[14:27] <ecips> alankila, Your knowledge of these things exceeds mine by several orders of magnitude :) I'm just a humble network plumber. :)
[14:28] <ecips> alankila, You obviously work with this sound stuff regularly :)
[14:28] <alankila> I have some audio-related hobbies that took up more of my time 1-2 years ago
[14:29] <ecips> I remember paying for an OSS license so I could get the sound on my PC going
[14:29] <ecips> That was some time back... :)
[14:29] <alankila> that could have been in 1997 or something
[14:29] <ecips> Yeah, around then I think
[14:30] <alankila> I remember there was a time when the paid version of OSS was ahead of the free version
[14:30] <ecips> I had a toshiba laptop
[14:30] <ecips> that the free version didnt support
[14:30] <alankila> though it seems to me that OSS4 has entirely lost its way, it has become an abstraction that actively hides stuff from users rather than one that tries to engineer a good answer to difficult questions
[14:31] <alankila> for instance you can't ask for OSS4 system what the length of latency is: it just has some symbolic constants with values like "a little", "somewhat", "quite a lot, actually". There used to be ioctls that tried to calculate it but they couldn't always answer correctly because drivers and hardware suck
[14:32] <ecips> heh :)
[14:32] <alankila> incidentally the very same problem that resulted in pulseaudio behaving poorly when it was first widely deployed
[14:32] <ecips> "sort of"
[14:32] <ecips> lol
[14:32] <alankila> sound drivers do not bother to tell because very few people care
[14:32] <ecips> alankila, I think it is one of those things that most people dont even know exist
[14:33] <alankila> to make the latency as obvious as possible, I'd really love to have this "memory mapped ring buffer" thing. DirectSound is great. You can have buffer that plays for 5 seconds if you want, but you can write only 10 ms ahead of the play cursor if you think that's what your program is jitter-free enough to handle.
[14:34] <alankila> so you realize a latency that is entirely up to you, up to the maximum latency value of 5 seconds, which implies you are just behind the play cursor in your writing, and it must play through the whole buffer before it reaches that point
[14:34] <ecips> how does alsa buffer sound?
[14:35] <alankila> it can do memory mapped i/o too, though I'm not sure if it's still the default way. There's typically a function you call that does writing, and something happens which causes the writing to occur
[14:35] <alankila> but I did not really manage to work out how to calculate the latency of ALSA audio from that, because I do not have the concept of a play cursor in a ring buffer, there's just some degree of buffering. :-/
[14:36] <ecips> Well, I think it is bed time for me!
[14:36] <alankila> ALSA structures everything as "periods" with a "period size". The entire buffer is periods * period_size frames long, and you write a period_size chunk at a time
[14:37] <alankila> so I guess it sleeps until it knows the play cursor is past the period you are about to overwrite, and then writes that data. But this doesn't really match how the hardware likely operates, which probably reads in much smaller chunks, or so I imagine...
[14:37] <ecips> 2240hrs here
[14:37]  * ecips yawns
[14:39] <ecips> nite all!
[14:40] <alankila> yes, laters.
[14:40]  * BluesKaj still wonders why i need pulse for a pci m-audio car , but not for a nvidia integrated audio chip
[14:40] <BluesKaj> nite ecips
[14:41] <BluesKaj> of course I'm running 12.04 on the old pc , with very few upgrades
[14:42] <alankila> I think everybody "needs" pulseaudio or should at least use it, if audio output is desired at all. It does a lot of the difficult stuff like allows you to select output configuration from a dropbox rather than muck around in alsa switches trying to work out how to enable iec958 output or something.
[14:42] <alankila> and instead of 30 sliders of which some might control volume, there is only one volume slider now
[14:43] <alankila> and if you are unfortunate enough to listen to cd-quality audio on chip that can internally only clock at 48 kHz, then you don't get linear interpolation based resampling but some higher quality algorithm by default. (Though I've noticed that the default algorithm has progressively become worse over time.)
[14:44] <alankila> actually I'm not sure if the algorithm is better. That would depend on pulse being smart actually. It would have to use the raw hardware rather than plughw and configure it to one of the hardware's native rates to avoid those atrocious alsa defaults
[14:45] <BluesKaj> well, I always the spdif digital output to an audio system ..pc speaker mostly don't do the joib for me , so I let the DAC in the amp do the conversion , and other ctrls like tone etc are done by the amplifier
[14:45] <alankila> I sure hope it uses hw rather than plughw, otherwise it misses an opportunity to undo another wart of ALSA
[14:46] <alankila> the algorithm now is "speex-float-1"
[14:48] <BluesKaj> alankila, so you're syaing also isn't up to the job at the get go , then we have another layer of processing thru pulse
[14:48] <BluesKaj> alsa isn't up
[14:51] <alankila> Hmm. I see. Kaiser window, probably 60 dB SNR, and I guess something like 80 % cutoff though I have to guess, it hasn't been written
[14:55] <alankila> BluesKaj: alsa is a hardware interface, and has dedicated itself to such. But users expect something more "cooked", and capable. For instance, per-application volume level is quite useful, as is the ability to play multiple sounds simultaneously and to change stream to a headset, or lower volume of your music player because you got a phone call over skype, and so on
[14:56] <alankila> this kind of integration makes for great user experience, and it's completely out of scope for alsa
[15:00] <BluesKaj> I just use the pause button , if i get phone call on skype or otherwise ,.and I never use simultaneous audio sources
[15:11] <BluesKaj> alsa doesn't need to be everything to everybody , just let it work/link with webaudio like it used to , that's all I ask...let hose that need multiple audiosources etc use pulse
[15:14] <bjsnider> alankila is right, everybody should be using pulse
[15:15] <BluesKaj> bah humbug
[15:17] <BluesKaj> I don't use it my 12.04 pc because I don't need it , alsa is working fine without pulse
[15:19] <alankila> BluesKaj: what if I told you that not everybody is exactly the same
[15:19] <alankila> when making decisions for a distribution you have to think about what everybody needs. Even if you never needed any features that pulse provided, it shouldn't harm you either that they are there.
[15:20] <BluesKaj> yes , hence my post about "everything to everybody" , aal
[15:20] <BluesKaj> alankila,^
[15:22] <bjsnider> i hope you removed system sounds and made sure only one thing at a time could ever make noise
[15:22] <BluesKaj> well , unfortunately linux audio has obviously become a "dog's breakfast" and it need a new audio suite with better HW integration
[15:22] <BluesKaj> I don't use system sounds
[15:23] <BluesKaj> it needs
[15:23] <bjsnider> no, please, not yet another audio suite
[15:23] <BluesKaj>  a replacement
[15:24] <BluesKaj> a comprehensive one
[15:26] <bjsnider> i think we can just make the current ones better
[16:29] <BluesKaj_> Hiyas all , the timeservers don;'r use the EST settings that i choose , the time is set to UK time at every bootup , altho the EST setting is still eanbled in the date time dialog
[16:30] <BluesKaj_> oops wrong chan
[19:28] <ybon> Anyone here experiencing "ImportError: No module named pyexpat" on Raring after install?
[20:52] <xaph> hi guys,  I'm using ubuntu 13.04 now and installing awesome doesn't creata a slimdm entry.
[20:52] <xaph> how can i add a new entry to slimdm?
[20:53] <xaph> sorry not slimdm, lightdm
[20:55] <trism> xaph: the desktop file seems to be there, though I see in the diff, NoDisplay=true was added in the raring version for some reason
[20:56] <trism> xaph: if you have already restarted lightdm and verified that it still isn't there, you might edit /usr/share/xsessions/awesome.desktop and remove that line
[20:56] <xaph> trism, thanks for your answer. I checked that file but not noticed nodisplay.
[20:56] <xaph> trism, I'll try it now.
[20:57] <xaph> trism, by the way where did you check these file? Where's the diff?
[21:01] <trism> xaph: related bug 1097240 (the diff is here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/awesome/3.4.14-1 )
[21:02] <rocky> not sure where the best place to ask this question is... but are the ubuntu unity webapp integration points available for google chrome in stable ubuntu or ubuntu+1 ?
[21:02] <trism> seems like adding NoDisplay=true is the new thing for window managers (seems kind of silly to add that and then have gdm ignore it on purpose)
[21:02] <rocky> actually perhaps a better question is "how do i get started with unity-integrated webapps?"
[21:07] <xaph> trism, thanks for information. I'll try it now.
[21:08] <RNDMb> Hi! I upgraded my ubuntu on my laptop to 13.04 and now it freezes when  I try to put it to sleep. However, only when it is not plugged in. Where should I look?
[21:09] <xaph> trism, it worked now. thanks again :)
[21:38] <alex_mayorga> !raring
[21:39] <alex_mayorga> !schedule
[21:40] <alex_mayorga> !upgrade
[21:45] <rubeni> hi to all
[22:30]  * BluesKaj checks xchat text