[14:57] <RZAFC> can someone help?
 I can't compile c program in gcc
[14:59] <Quintasan> RZAFC: go to #ubuntu
[15:01] <RZAFC> ok
[17:13] <zyga> brendand: is there a friendly meeting here?
[17:13] <brendand> zyga, i haven't seen one
[17:19] <roadmr> not sure what happened :/
[17:19] <roadmr> cprofitt may know something :)
[17:23] <roadmr> brendand, zyga : I'm an idiot, the UF meeting is scheduled for *tomorrow* :(
[17:23] <zyga> roadmr: hehe
[17:24] <brendand> roadmr, off by one (day) error
[17:25] <brendand> happens all the time
[20:59]  * stgraber waves
[20:59] <pitti> hello
[21:00] <soren> o/
[21:01] <pitti> kees and mdz sent apologies
[21:01] <pitti> cjwatson, stgraber: here?
[21:02] <soren> 20:59  * stgraber waves
[21:02] <soren> 20:59 -!- pitti [~pitti@www.piware.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting
[21:02] <cjwatson> hi
[21:02] <soren> Just missed it :)
[21:02] <pitti> ah :)
[21:06] <soren> Who's chairing today?
[21:06] <cjwatson> I was last
[21:06] <cjwatson> So I think pitti is next in rotation
[21:07] <pitti> oh, ok
[21:07] <pitti> #startmeeting
[21:07] <meetingology> Meeting started Mon Feb 18 21:07:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
[21:07] <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
[21:07] <pitti> #topic action review
[21:07] <pitti> (sorry, didn't prepare; wiki said kees)
[21:08] <pitti> no actions that I can see at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard/TeamReports
[21:08] <cjwatson> There was one for me to update the SRU page
[21:08] <pitti> #topic Flavor of UbuntuKylin
[21:08] <cjwatson> Which I did
[21:08] <pitti> oh, I saw that
[21:08] <pitti> right
[21:09] <pitti> JackYu: are you here?
[21:09] <JackYu> Hi, I am Jack from UbuntuKylin team
[21:09]  * pitti was reading https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuKylin in the meantime
[21:10] <JackYu> Yes, pitti:)
[21:11] <pitti> JackYu: we have had http://china-images.ubuntu.com/ for some time now, but it's fairly undermaintained from what I know; are you aware of this?
[21:11] <stgraber> wiki doc for new flavours is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecognizedFlavors
[21:11] <cjwatson> pitti: (Foundations would like Kylin to supersede china-images)
[21:11] <pitti> JackYu: i. e. is this meant to continue this project, or a completely separate effort?
[21:12]  * soren had never heard of china-images
[21:12] <pitti> ah, so this will use/change/extend the existing customizations and build machinery?
[21:12] <JackYu> Pitti: no, it's a new.
[21:12] <cjwatson> pitti: I wouldn't expect so
[21:12] <soren> JackYu: The wiki page speaks about goals. What is the current state?
[21:12] <cjwatson> china-images more or less works if you basically have nobody maintaining it
[21:12] <cjwatson> That system isn't so good for a full-fledged flavour
[21:12] <cjwatson> The one thing that concerns me in that is the "System Assistant" item - that's the sort of thing that I would say should be done as part of core Ubuntu rather than a flavour, even if it's implemented by Kylin developers (and you should be aware of the previous attempt at something like this, Computer Janitor, which has been removed and we reckon that any subsequent attempt should probably live in Software Center)
[21:13] <pitti> indeed
[21:13] <pitti> I'm also a bit sceptical about fctix, that's something I'd like to discuss
[21:13] <cjwatson> There's no reason why that kind of tool ought to be specific to a locale or a region of the world
[21:13] <cjwatson> Or particularly customised for it
[21:13] <pitti> and "photo handling" also isn't China specific
[21:14] <cjwatson> Right, so worth splitting this out into things that are specific to your flavour, and general problems in the wider Ubuntu project that your developers would like to work on
[21:14] <cjwatson> Both are definitely welcome, but we should only consider the former to be part of UbuntuKylin IMO
[21:14] <soren> JackYu: Just to be clear: These things may be great improvements, they're just..
[21:14] <JackYu> cjwatson: Yes, it should be in Ubuntu, not only for a flavor.
[21:14] <soren> Right, what cjwatson just said :)
[21:15] <pitti> JackYu: do you have a set of proposals and topics for the meeting, or should we just go through one by one?
[21:16] <pitti> ok, so let's just do that then
[21:16] <pitti> = Online Music Search on Dash =
[21:16] <pitti> that's just changing the searched providers, not changing the client?
[21:17] <JackYu> soren: we have finished the goals in UbuntuKyli13.04. packages are in Ubuntu Archive.
[21:17] <pitti> AFAIK this is already country specific, so that sounds straightforward
[21:17] <soren> JackYu: Oh, excellent.
[21:18] <JackYu> pitti: I have sent an email to your maillist...
[21:19] <pitti> I didn't see it yuet
[21:19] <soren> Perhaps stuck in the moderation queue?
[21:19] <pitti> ah, I moderated it now
[21:19] <pitti> JackYu: so is the music search changing the searched servers only, or also the GUI?
[21:21] <JackYu> Pitti: we add a scope to searching Baidu music. Yes, only servers
[21:21] <pitti> thanks
[21:21] <pitti> calendar and weather indicator seem straightforward to me, any questions anyone?
[21:22] <pitti> = input method =
[21:22] <JackYu> Another PM of this team, Anthony from Canonical, is online. He will join:)
[21:22] <pitti> JackYu: why are you using fcitx, OOI? Ubuntu, GNOME, etc. all use ibus
[21:22] <pitti> this seems to be a rather large diversion
[21:23] <JackYu> fcitx is good at Chinese input, as we tested.
[21:24] <JackYu> It provides better intelligent association
[21:25] <pitti> I'm asking because unlike ibus that doesn't have any GUI configuration support in e. g. control-center or the indicator, as these all talk to ibus
[21:26] <pitti> if (and that may well be the case), fcitx is indeed better than sunpinyin or googlepinyin, then IMHO that should become the default in regular Ubuntu as well, but that should be discussed with e. g. GNOME and the desktop team
[21:27] <pitti> JackYu: perhaps you can update the wiki page with the pros and cons, and how that affects configuration, indicators, the language selector, and so on?
[21:27] <ypwong> pitti, for gui, I think JackYu plans to do that for fcitx post 13.04
[21:28] <ypwong> agree to put the pros and cons on wiki, action for JackYu
[21:28] <JackYu> Yes, we are going to do some work on fcitx.
[21:28] <pitti> #action JackYu to document reasons for switching to fcitx, and impact on control center, indicators, application support
[21:28] <meetingology> ACTION: JackYu to document reasons for switching to fcitx, and impact on control center, indicators, application support
[21:29] <JackYu> pitti: OK, thanks.
[21:29] <pitti> JackYu: also, please note that just like fcitx, ibus also has several modules such as various pinyin flavours; they changed several times in the past, but they all use the common ibus API for configuration and switching between them
[21:29] <pitti> = WPS =
[21:30] <pitti> that sounds like "MS Works", is it really that, or something different?
[21:30] <pitti> i. e. you're not using LibreOffice?
[21:30] <JackYu> It is a Chinese office tools
[21:31] <ypwong> pitti, it's a complete office suite, but proprietary
[21:31] <JackYu> by Kingsoft Corp. of China
[21:31] <cjwatson> So this is interoperability with it, rather than shipping it?
[21:31] <pitti> ypwong: i. e. you want to ship import/export filters for LibO, or provide a WPS installer and drop LibO?
[21:31] <ypwong> there's talks with the company to put it on software center
[21:31] <pitti> I think this could also be clarified on the wiki
[21:32] <cjwatson> I really question shipping proprietary software as the preferred option (even via an installer) in a recognised Ubuntu flavour
[21:32] <cjwatson> Even if it's the preferred local option, it dilutes the Ubuntu brand rather badly
[21:32] <cjwatson> If it's not presented as the preferred option I'm not so concerned
[21:33] <pitti> yeah, same here; we still present Ubuntu as "all free software"
[21:33] <pitti> s/still//
[21:34] <JackYu> There is a link on desktop to download WPS, not pre-installed.
[21:34] <ypwong> we are thinking it's like suggesting codecs or binary drivers vs free ones in ubuntu
[21:35] <cjwatson> It's not - drivers occupy an explicitly different status
[21:35] <pitti> no, it's not like drivers
[21:35] <cjwatson> We have always treated proprietary applications quite differently
[21:35] <pitti> drivers allow you to use free software/ubuntu at all
[21:36] <pitti> I think it's fine to add it to SC for easy installation, we do that with plenty of software; but I feel that presenting it as something which most users will just click anyway is the wrong direction
[21:36] <ypwong> LibO won't be dropped, it should still be installed by default in ubuntukylin 13.04. JackYu am I correct?
[21:36] <cjwatson> TBH having a link on the desktop is something of a concern to me as well.  I don't think we necessarily need to resolve it in this meeting, but I'd like to feel confident that the people running a new flavour share our general position on free software
[21:36] <JackYu> Yes, LibO is default.
[21:37] <cjwatson> We don't want to position Ubuntu as just a cheap way to get hold of proprietary software - it's meant to be a quality product in itself and I think our flavours should be proud of the free software in the archive
[21:37] <cjwatson> If you see what I mean
[21:37] <cjwatson> (Agreed regarding adding things to Software Center for easy installation)
[21:38] <JackYu> cjwatson: Yes, I got.
[21:39] <pitti> as for the other points, we already discussed the system assistant, same with photo handling
[21:39] <cjwatson> Then let's make sure its status is clear in UbuntuKylin documentation too - I didn't get the proprietary bit at all from the wiki page
[21:39] <pitti> the other points seem like genuine localization to me; opinions?
[21:40] <cjwatson> Me too
[21:40] <pitti> ACTION: JackYu to clarify on the wiki page what WPS is and how it's going to be integrated
[21:40] <pitti> JackYu: ^ sounds ok?
[21:40] <JackYu> sure.
[21:41] <pitti> JackYu: for the record, we were picking on the unclear bits, which might have sounded a bit negative; thanks for working on this project, it's really quite appreciated that some actual Chinese developers are taking this up!
[21:42] <cjwatson> Yeah, the existing images have mostly been maintained by non-Chinese people, which is ... not ideal
[21:42] <JackYu> Thanks your suggestions:)
[21:43] <pitti> ypwong, JackYu, soren, stgraber: do you see anything else which we need to discuss still?
[21:43] <cjwatson> And I agree that the customary facilities people in China expect to be available in their OS appear to be sufficiently divergent from what we ship elsewhere that it's worth a separate flavour
[21:43] <soren> pitti: No, I think this is good for now.
[21:43] <stgraber> pitti: well, I think we ought to go through the current requirements for flavours and decide whether we make an exception for this one and if so, set some conditions around that
[21:44] <cjwatson> I have a latent concern about the possibility of lots of localised flavours and scaling problems arising from that - but TBH China appears to be the most complex and divergent case and I'm not seeing the same pressures elsehere
[21:44] <JackYu> The default-settings and theme packages are also prepared.
[21:44] <cjwatson> There are a few things still in NEW
[21:44] <cjwatson> But that's not your fault :-)
[21:44] <ypwong> cjwatson, good that you see the point of this flavor :)
[21:45] <ypwong> cjwatson, yes, the default-settings still in NEW
[21:45] <stgraber> I definitely apprecaite having someone work on the Chinese images and getting that rolling as a real flavour, however as far as I can tell, none of the people in this meeting are Ubuntu members, none of which have upload rights and most of which haven't even signed the CoC
[21:45] <pitti> stgraber: I'm still not quite clear about fcitx vs. ibus, and I'm assuming that the WPS situation will be clarified; do you see other major exceptions from the general understanding of what a localized flavour is?
[21:45] <stgraber> so I guess I want to discuss who's going to be responsible for the flavour
[21:45] <stgraber> if that's Canonical Foundations through slangasek, I'm happy with it, if not, I can't +1 this in its current state
[21:46] <pitti> stgraber: oh, you mean the community structure, not the technical aspects?
[21:46] <stgraber> righ
[21:46] <stgraber> *right
[21:46] <pitti> my gut feeling is that membership needs to come during doing actual work on Kylin here
[21:46] <cjwatson> slangasek has expressed to me (er, [1] personal communication) a general willingness to see this through and a request for Foundations to generally help out
[21:47] <stgraber> I perfectly agree with what was said earlier as to what should be included in the flavour and I definitely agree with the goal behind the flavour. I'm just concerned about who will be responsible for it
[21:47] <cjwatson> I do think you absolutely ought to be aiming for at least two developers with upload rights on their own behalf
[21:47] <pitti> past experience didn't show that maintaining the Chinese flavour from the existing ~ubuntu-dev team has worked well
[21:48] <cjwatson> I think this is the first new flavour since we wrote/approved RecognizedFlavours?
[21:48] <stgraber> what the TB and canonical agreed on for flavours was that leading members would need to have the CoC signed, one or more developers have upload rights, show 6 months activity and have a QA contact
[21:48] <cjwatson> I'd suggest that we ought to start by ensuring that the criteria from "Guidelines to have an image added to the dailies" are met, and that "Guidelines to become and remain a recognized flavor" are on track
[21:48] <stgraber> cjwatson: I think so, yes, we used the document to approve LTS status but not to approve new flavours
[21:48] <cjwatson> (It's a bit unclear, reading it in this light)
[21:48] <pitti> signing the CoC is certainly something that can be done quickly at leats?
[21:48] <pitti> least
[21:49] <cjwatson> But you clearly can't establish a "track record" until you've been going for a while
[21:49] <stgraber> so I'm generally happy to ignore some of those conditions on the basis that the Foundations team will be responsible for the flavour and that this responsability will be transferred to a separate Kylin team once they meet the criteria
[21:50] <pitti> stgraber: I understand "responsible" in the sense of mentoring and perhaps sponsoring here?
[21:50] <JackYu> Stgraber: It seems that Members from NUDT have signed the CoC.
[21:51] <stgraber> pitti: right, mentoring, help with release management and sponsoring
[21:51] <cjwatson> I think we can check off most of the "dailies" items; 1) is what we're talking about now, 2) is underway, 3) means that JackYu and ypwong should ensure that some appropriate team is subscribed to bugs on all the relevant packages, 4) I can say that we have plenty of image publishing space right now without needing to explicitly check with IS, 5) that can be somebody from Foundations and I can check up with slangasek on ...
[21:51] <cjwatson> ... it tomorrow, 6) ...
[21:52] <stgraber> pitti: then in 6 months (to meet the time criteria), we can re-evaluate and then have the Kylin team be fully responsible for it assuming they have enough uploaders, QA, release contact people by then familiar with our processes
[21:52] <cjwatson> "Community member lined up to test image and provide feedback at milestones"  what do NUDT/UbuntuKylin's QA plans look like?
[21:52] <pitti> sorry, what is NUDT?
[21:52] <stgraber> hehe, was about to ask the same question ;)
[21:52] <pitti> stgraber: sounds good to me, too
[21:53] <pitti> (trying to pronounce the acronym really doesn't help clarifying..)
[21:53] <ypwong> let me describe what has been done so far: we've been talking with JackYu for several months about this flavour idea, now JackYu's and his team do the coding, seb128/slangasek/et al helped reviewed their work and upload them
[21:53] <cjwatson> National University of Defense Technology, says google
[21:54] <pitti> ok, we have to hurry up a bi
[21:54] <ypwong> cjwatson, right, JackYu's team mostly from the university
[21:54] <pitti> t
[21:54] <stgraber> JackYu: you didn't sign it according to Launchpad, which is a bit troubling for someone who wants to become a flavour lead ;)
[21:54]  * stgraber checks that LP isn't lying
[21:55] <pitti> JackYu, ypwong: can we review this again in two weeks, when we have above clarifications, CoC signed, etc?
[21:55] <JackYu> Oh, if not, I will do it soon.
[21:55] <pitti> ACTION: JackYu and ypwong to sort out CoC signing
[21:56] <pitti> JackYu, ypwong: thanks for attending!
[21:56] <ypwong> pitti, I'm ok with that, how about you, JackYu?
[21:56] <JackYu> OK. Thank you.
[21:56] <cjwatson> JackYu: If you folks haven't already been discussing daily building of images with slangasek, feel free to do so with me
[21:57] <pitti> #topic Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed
[21:57] <pitti> # topic SRU Minor Release Exception for Ceph
[21:57] <cjwatson> (Perhaps at a more sociable time for both of us, if I'm guessing your timezone correctly)
[21:57] <pitti> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-February/001475.html
[21:57] <pitti> can we move this to email?
[21:57] <JackYu> cjwatson: Sure. Thanks.
[21:57] <cjwatson> pitti: I will confess I haven't really absorbed that one yet
[21:57] <pitti> reviewing the details of this will be too tight for the remaining 3 mins, I think; or did someone already?
[21:57] <stgraber> I guess I'll be talking with slangasek on whether he'd be happy to be a temporary flavour lead for Kylin (or have Foundations do that) until they are familiar enough with everything and have upload rights to do all that themselves
[21:58] <pitti> ok, so let's move that to mail
[21:59] <pitti> nothing else on the ML that I can see
[21:59] <pitti> #topic chair for next meeting
[21:59] <pitti> continuing with kees
[21:59] <pitti> ?
[21:59] <pitti> #topic AOB
[21:59] <pitti> anyone?
[22:00] <stgraber> yeah, I guess we can continue with kees, mdz then skip you (if we remember ;))
[22:00] <pitti> 10 secs
[22:00]  * pitti rings the bell, thanks everyone!
[22:00] <cjwatson> thanks!
[22:00] <stgraber> pitti: thanks for chairing!
[22:00] <soren> ta
[22:00] <soren> o/
[22:01] <ypwong> thanks everyone
[22:01]  * ypwong goes back to bed
[22:02] <pitti> bonne nuit tout le monde
[22:02] <stgraber> pitti: bonne nuit
[22:14] <JackYu> Thanks, all. goes back to bed too:)