[07:27] <redtape-renegade> Morning ... Anyone ?
[07:50] <ali1234> bug 1129467
[08:02] <kvarley> neuro: Found this re: our chat last night. http://liliputing.com/2013/02/how-to-install-ubuntu-touch-on-a-nexus-7-with-windows-mac-or-linux.html
[08:03] <neuro> ah legend, cheers :)
[08:03] <kvarley> neuro: np :)
[08:03] <neuro> i had a hiccup trying via parallels, so would be neat to try natively
[08:14] <redtape-renegade> neuro: Is parallels a good system ?
[08:14] <neuro> i think so
[08:14] <redtape-renegade> Any drawbacks ?
[08:15] <neuro> i'm still not 100% sure about usb devices
[08:15] <neuro> apart from that, it's great
[08:15] <redtape-renegade> ok
[08:15] <neuro> i'm a firm believer that dual/triple-booting is crazy talk
[08:15] <neuro> at least for me
[08:16] <neuro> i always find i want to use a tool that's only available in the OS i'm not booted into
[08:16] <neuro> pain in the butt
[08:19] <kvarley> neuro: Used to be the case for me with games...Not anymore :)
[08:19] <kvarley> I just use virtualbox for any windows apps if I need them
[08:20] <neuro> i have a full windows vm on this mac just to use vmware vsphere client :)
[08:20] <kvarley> You own a mac :/
[08:21] <neuro> i own several
[08:21] <kvarley> More money than sense? :P
[08:21] <neuro> 15" i7 MBP in front of me
[08:21] <neuro> 13" i5 MBP in my bag
[08:21] <neuro> i5 mac mini in front of my tv
[08:21] <neuro> c2d mac mini in my office
[08:22] <neuro> and a c2d 15" mbp in my office that has a busted fan
[08:22] <kvarley> neuro: https://twitter.com/kjvarley/status/304525504998957056
[08:22] <neuro> and a bunch of old ppc and 68k macs too
[08:22] <kvarley> IMO macs are torture and stupidly over priced. Yes they look pretty but that's about how useful they are.
[08:23] <neuro> you're right about window tiling, at least out of the box (i think there are 3rd party utils that do that, i've never needed them)
[08:23] <neuro> why are you using a us layout keyboard?
[08:23] <kvarley> neuro: Dunno, the 30 or so macs at uni have US layout keyboards
[08:24] <neuro> that's not the fault of the macs :)
[08:24] <neuro> you know about opt+3, right? ####
[08:24] <kvarley> neuro: It's not US though because US layout keyboards still have # on them
[08:24] <neuro> ohhhhh
[08:24] <kvarley> opt + 3 ?
[08:24] <neuro> scuze, let me disengage early morning stupid brain
[08:24] <neuro> you're right, i'm thinking the other way round
[08:25] <neuro> out the box, you get a hash mark by pressing option (aka alt) and 3
[08:25] <neuro> # voila
[08:25] <neuro> however
[08:25] <neuro> that sucks
[08:25] <kvarley> Also, why doesn't the "maximise" button actually maximise the window? It does it vertically but not horizontally
[08:25] <neuro> so i use a different keyboard layout on my macs
[08:26] <neuro> http://neuro.me.uk/2009/08/31/getting-the-uk-keyboard-layout-right-in-snow-leopard/
[08:26] <kvarley> And what is the point in the CMD key, other than ta pain
[08:26] <neuro> it puts \ and # and " and @ in all the right places
[08:26] <neuro> the cmd key goes all the way back to the Lisa, it's just a legacy thing
[08:26] <redtape-renegade> Boiler Engineer has just arrived .. he's 30 minutes late !
[08:26] <kvarley> neuro: I'll never be able to do that unfortunately, the system is locked down pretty well
[08:27] <neuro> the same way Sun keyboards have oodles of extra keys that are useful on that platform
[08:27] <neuro> kvarley: if you have a home dir, you can drop new keyboard layouts there
[08:27] <neuro> ~/Library/Keyboard Layouts
[08:27] <neuro> might be worth a try
[08:27] <kvarley> neuro: I have a fake home dir so not sure if it will work
[08:27] <kvarley> Either way, I'd rather use dirty windows 7 than OS X
[08:28] <neuro> and what's the beef about rename option in the finder?
[08:28] <kvarley> There isn't one
[08:28] <kvarley> That's my beef
[08:28] <neuro> yup
[08:28] <kvarley> Why?
[08:28] <neuro> you just slow double click
[08:28] <kvarley> Oh yeah, that's great
[08:28] <neuro> click to select, then click again to enable rename
[08:28] <kvarley> Or press enter when the file is selected
[08:28] <neuro> it's just another way of doing things, no less number of clicks
[08:29] <kvarley> People who use OS X come across like it's easy to use
[08:29] <kvarley> It is far from it since everything is backwards, just like Apple
[08:29] <neuro> People who don't regularly use OS X or very reguarly use other OSes come across like OS X is hard to use
[08:29] <neuro> it's no less hard than any other operating system
[08:29] <neuro> you just have your muscle memory wired in another direction
[08:30] <kvarley> neuro: I disagree. I've used different OS' before. Granted I have spent more time on Windows and Linux than OS X but I've spent a considerable amount of time on Macs and I'm still completely lost
[08:30] <kvarley> With Linux I can get a totally different DE and learn it pretty quickly
[08:30] <neuro> i admit it can be a slightly harder culture shift
[08:30] <neuro> i think it's because of all the UI spooge shared between windows and most Linux Des
[08:30] <neuro> s/Des/DEs/
[08:31] <neuro> I thing ragging on OS X just because it's different can be slightly unfair
[08:31] <neuro> s/thing/think/
[08:31] <kvarley> neuro: It's not because it's different, I appreciate different as long as it provides easier or faster workflow
[08:32] <kvarley> OS X doesn't seem to do either IMO
[08:32] <neuro> i get that
[08:32] <neuro> but i find i can work very well in OS X, I think mainly because I'm familiar with it
[08:32] <kvarley> :)
[08:32] <neuro> I think that's all that this is, it's just a familiarity issue
[08:33] <neuro> i'm not saying THOU MUST ADORE MACS MUAHAHAHA, but i think it's a bit unfair just to write them off as crap because you are unfamiliar with them
[08:33] <kvarley> I guess. Either way, I think some features are counter-intuitive and will never be buying an Apple product hehe
[08:34] <neuro> which is completely your choise
[08:34] <neuro> choise?
[08:34] <kvarley> Choice
[08:34] <neuro> what is up with my fingers this morning
[08:34] <popey> morning
[08:34] <neuro> why aye
[08:34] <popey> pip pip
[08:34] <neuro> kvarley: thing is though, the cost thing has never concerned me
[08:34] <kvarley> neuro: Really? Why not?
[08:34] <neuro> because i know i'm getting a well built, quality product
[08:35] <neuro> i got tired of buying dells and seeing them fall to bits under heavy use
[08:35] <kvarley> neuro: You're getting a product built by Foxconn just like a lot of other hardware
[08:35] <neuro> it's not just the manufacture, it's the design too
[08:36] <neuro> and apple clearly have more rigourous quality control standards as to what they consider a finished product
[08:36] <neuro> in terms of durability, for example
[08:36] <kvarley> neuro: I think physically that Apple hardware looks good and is fairly robust. But price for performance is just stupid.
[08:36] <neuro> but it's not just about performance
[08:36] <neuro> i want a hardware and software platform i know i can rely on
[08:36] <kvarley> neuro: What about Apple having the power to discontinue your hardware? Like with iPods they just say that you're not getting any more updates ... Buy a new one sucker
[08:37] <neuro> then because Apple finally had the foresight to go x86 like the rest of the planet, I can throw another OS on there
[08:37] <kvarley> neuro: With much difficulty. Apple make it very hard to do anything like that
[08:37] <neuro> rly?
[08:37] <neuro> they make it easy to install windows
[08:38] <kvarley> neuro: They're proprietary all the way
[08:38] <kvarley> neuro: Only after years of locking everything down
[08:38] <neuro> ubuntu installs fairly well too from what i hear
[08:38] <kvarley> neuro: Maybe your issue was that you were buying the wrong hardware before you switched to Apple :)
[08:38] <kvarley> neuro: That work is not down to Apple though
[08:38] <neuro> i was buying from one of the biggest PC manufacturers in the world
[08:39] <kvarley> neuro: I meant for your needs.
[08:39] <neuro> and talking about proprietory in the face of PC manus deploying this secure boot stuff? :)
[08:39] <neuro> my needs are a stable and robust computing platform
[08:39] <neuro> I personally find those needs met with Macs
[08:39] <kvarley> neuro: That's not the PC world, that's Microsoft screwing the PC marketplace
[08:39] <neuro> yes
[08:40] <neuro> and you don't find that concerning? :)
[08:40] <kvarley> neuro: I have no interest in buying Microsoft products though
[08:40] <neuro> but you have to (usually) pass the microsoft hurdle if you want to buy some new PC hardware these days
[08:40] <neuro> yes, i know you can self build, but that can be a pain for most people
[08:40] <kvarley> neuro: Yeah, usually. Depends what you buy really.
[08:41] <neuro> oh totally
[08:41] <kvarley> neuro: I'm fortunate in that the people I know ask me what to get rather than getting something THEN asking me to put ubuntu on it
[08:41] <directhex> secure boot is *such* a pointless drama
[08:41] <neuro> but the number of OEMs shipping non-Windows 8 hardware will decline over time
[08:41] <neuro> directhex: i know
[08:41] <neuro> kvarley: hehe
[08:41] <kvarley> neuro: Windows 8 is just an abomination in general
[08:41] <jacobw> morning
[08:41] <neuro> oh goodness, yes
[08:41] <kvarley> neuro: In that respect you're better off with your Macs :)
[08:42] <neuro> ha :)
[08:42] <directhex> strangely windows 8 is faster on XP-era hardware than XP
[08:42] <kvarley> jacobw: \0 :)
[08:42] <neuro> directhex: wat?!?
[08:42] <directhex> them's the benchmarks
[08:42] <neuro> wow
[08:42] <neuro> i did not know that
[08:42] <directhex> ten year old cpu and 1 gig of ram = faster OS
[08:42] <neuro> probably kernel and driver optimisation
[08:42] <jacobw> does the CPU have features that the XP kernel isn't using?
[08:43] <neuro> on a 10 year old system? i'd hope not
[08:43] <kvarley> neuro: We have different views on what hardware we need. :) I buy solely for performance then just get Linux whereas you buy a complete package.
[08:43] <neuro> i'd say that was a fair observation
[08:44] <neuro> right, i need to find some brekkie, i think this is why i'm typoing so much, back in a few :)
[08:44] <kvarley> neuro: hehe, cya
[08:45]  * kvarley confesses he installed XFCE and has mimicked the Unity layout
[08:48] <jacobw> bubt without the expose stuff
[08:48] <jacobw> s/bubt/but
[08:49] <kvarley> jacobw: Yeah. I would install unity on Arch but I think that'd be a crime
[09:06] <JamesTait> Happy Friday, people! :-D
[09:11] <jacobw> happy friday JamesTait
[09:13] <redtape-renegade> T'is Friday, true.
[09:13] <redtape-renegade> Anyone know how I can use an SDcard with dropbox .. my netbook HD drive is only 15 GB ??
[09:17] <kvarley> redtape-renegade: Yeah you can, when you set up Dropbox on your computer it will ask you whether you want to put Dropbox in a custom location or just the default /home/user/Dropbox folder
[09:38] <neuro> mmm, cheerios and marlboros
[09:39] <neuro> (not at the same time, obviously)
[09:40] <AlanBell> bug 1131646
[09:41] <A5c11Char5et> Hi guys
[09:41] <neuro> hola
[09:41] <A5c11Char5et> More SQL woes :(
[09:41] <A5c11Char5et> I suspect this is probably a stupid question for somebody who knows SQL
[09:42] <neuro> AlanBell: good shout
[09:42] <A5c11Char5et> Hang on, I'll paste bin it..
[09:42] <neuro> it does seem counterintuitive as is
[09:42] <AlanBell> yeah, I try really really hard to live with the Unity alt-tab switcher, but it is so frustrating
[09:42] <AlanBell> I can't believe the designers actually use it
[09:43] <A5c11Char5et> Any ideas why this isn't working guys ?
[09:43] <A5c11Char5et> http://pastebin.com/BZjbNaC9
[09:43] <neuro> need the error
[09:43] <A5c11Char5et> Okay
[09:44] <A5c11Char5et> MySQL said:
[09:44] <A5c11Char5et> #1064 - You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'WHERE `UserName`='charles_l_hurst'' at line 1
[09:44] <neuro> put a space on either side of the =
[09:45] <neuro> actually
[09:45] <neuro> step back
[09:45] <neuro> you can't do that
[09:45] <neuro> INSERT is to insert a new row
[09:45] <neuro> you need to use UPDATE
[09:45] <neuro> to update an existing one
[09:45] <AlanBell> update users where foo
[09:46] <AlanBell> update users set confirmed=0 where foo
[09:46] <neuro> UPDATE `Users` SET ... yup
[09:46] <neuro> ;)
[09:46] <A5c11Char5et> Thanks neuro
[09:46] <A5c11Char5et> I'll look up update
[09:46] <A5c11Char5et> I don't usually dabble in SQL
[09:47] <A5c11Char5et> I'm just doing some webdev
[09:47] <A5c11Char5et> Thanks dude.
[09:47] <neuro> might be worth reading up the mysql docs, they give a good overview of the basics
[09:47] <AlanBell> A5c11Char5et: maybe install phpmyadmin locally to have a play with it in a gui, it tells you what SQL it is doing
[09:47] <neuro> if this is for webdev, make sure you sanitise any input as well to prevent sql injection (plenty of tutorials and language functions kicking about to do that)
[09:47] <A5c11Char5et> AlanBell, I'm using phpmyadmin on the server
[09:48] <A5c11Char5et> neuro, yeah - I've been thinking about that
[09:48] <A5c11Char5et> neuro, just like checking length and content and stuff
[09:48] <A5c11Char5et> Is that enough ?
[09:48] <kvarley> A5c11Char5et: No no no
[09:48] <neuro> http://xkcd.com/327/
[09:49] <neuro> ^ that's a brilliant example :)
[09:49] <kvarley> A5c11Char5et: You need escape the strings to stop people being able to inject SQL. Regex and length checks should be done as well.
[09:49] <kvarley> neuro: hehe good old xkcd
[09:50] <A5c11Char5et> Regular expressions *shudders*
[09:50] <A5c11Char5et> ;)
[09:50] <dwatkins> remove all special characters, perhaps, too
[09:50] <A5c11Char5et> Escape strings, ah - okay.
[09:50] <dwatkins> I guess that's what sanitisation is, removing the quote marks and such like, as in neuro's XKCD cartoon
[09:51] <AlanBell> little bobby tables
[09:51] <neuro> :)
[09:51] <dwatkins> there are functions to do this in PHP, iirc
[09:51]  * AlanBell uses a user called "Bobby Tables" as demo data whenever possible
[09:52] <dwatkins> haha, nice
[09:52] <dwatkins> I tend to use Zaphod Beeblebrox as my example username.
[09:52] <AlanBell> one day someone will spot the joke
[09:52] <dwatkins> occasionally Ford Prefect shows up too.
[09:52] <popey> I use Elvis Presley
[09:52] <dwatkins> What's the double minus on the end of Bobby Tables' full name, after the semicolon?
[09:53] <popey> https://launchpad.net/~elvis-presley is me
[09:53] <neuro> nooooooooo
[09:53] <neuro> i thought he was really using launchpad!
[09:53] <AlanBell> dwatkins: good question
[09:54] <Laney> sql comment
[09:54] <neuro> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/4.1/en/comments.html
[09:54] <dwatkins> an empty comment? ah ok
[09:55] <shauno> I'm not sure it's empty; it'd cause it to disregard the rest of the intended instruction
[09:55] <neuro> yup
[09:56] <dwatkins> shauno: yeah, I guess it would stop any subsequent commands in users' names being executed, too
[09:56] <neuro> so that if the input was passed into an actual mysql statement, the remainder of the statement of the injection wouldn't cause any errors from a malformed half-command
[09:58] <shauno> right, assume the original statement is something dull like 'update students where name = $student limit 1'.  it becomes where name = robert); drop table students; -- limit 1, so the -- stops the 'limit 1' making it invalid
[09:59] <brobostigon> good morning everyone,
[10:03] <ali1234> carbon doesn't back up homescreens
[10:03] <dwatkins> shauno: aha, cunning
[10:03] <ali1234> now i have to put back all the icons
[10:09] <ali1234> great, google have dne something to the clock widget so you can't make it smaller then 5x2
[10:09] <ali1234> so now i can never set my homescreen up like it was before
[10:11] <neuro> ooh, just realised it's friday morning
[10:11] <neuro> big bang theory time :D
[10:11] <popey> \o/ Friday
[10:33] <neuro> i can report that the latest TBBT is awesome, as always
[11:02] <davmor2> Morning all
[11:19] <ali1234> wow the new build in firefox pdf viewer is slow
[11:20] <ali1234> it takes about 3 seconds to scroll each page
[11:21] <directhex> rendering a pdf is hard
[11:21] <ali1234> it is when you do it with javascript
[11:22] <directhex> javascript is the future. didn't you hear the gnome devs?
[11:23] <AlanBell> ooh, how does that reader work then?
[11:24] <AlanBell> FF19 in raring just downloads PDF files for me
[11:26] <AlanBell> oh, I see, they have to be downloaded in a certain way
[11:26] <AlanBell> mimetype perhaps
[11:27] <AlanBell> ali1234: it is fast for me
[11:27] <AlanBell> really fast
[11:29] <BigRedS> Argh. As if to prove my last mail to the list right I just created an *awful* empathy theme
[11:30] <ali1234> directhex: don't forget KDE devs
[11:30] <ali1234> they did it first
[11:30] <directhex> javascript is not fast
[11:31] <directhex> most of the reason why it's "fast" in browsers is high speed DOM
[11:31] <directhex> without the DOM, javascript is slow
[11:31] <ali1234> without DOM it has nothing to do anyway
[11:31] <directhex> without DOM it's a slow scripting language
[11:31] <ali1234> yep
[11:32] <AlanBell> CPU is never the bottleneck (unless something is spinning it for no reason)
[11:32] <ali1234> but of course anything that isn't compiled to native machine code is slow
[11:33]  * davmor2 is currently addicted to Lazard's remix of beverly cravens "promise me"
[11:33] <davmor2> all 8 versions
[11:38] <directhex> the two arguments for using JS for linux desktop development are nonsense
[11:39] <directhex> speed is nonsense due to the DOM being the choke point
[11:39] <directhex> and transferrable skills are nonsense since there's little you can transfer from webdev to desktop dev, even if the language matches
[11:39] <ali1234> i totally agree
[11:39] <BigRedS> that's the bit that got me - I don't want web developers writing any software I run outside of a browser
[11:39] <BigRedS> I've seen what they write
[11:40] <directhex> i don't want them writing software i run *inside* a browser, for the most part
[11:40] <BigRedS> well, no, but it's hard to get away from that
[11:40] <ali1234> i don't want to run software written by anyone who isn't comfortable writing machine code with a hex editor
[11:40]  * AlanBell isn't comfortable writing machine code in a hex editor
[11:41] <AlanBell> I wouldn't run software written by me either
[11:46] <BigRedS> ah, no, software written by me is allowed to be rubbish
[11:56] <ali1234> when you think about it...
[11:56] <ali1234> you don't teach kids to use a calculator first, right?
[11:57] <ali1234> so why is it suddenly the right thing to do to start introductory programming courses with high level languages?
[12:08] <AlanBell> ali1234: schools actually teach picaxe controller programming
[12:09] <AlanBell> because they have given up teaching computing, and the woodwork teachers are making robots and filling the void
[12:11] <AlanBell> computing or "ICT" is basically pasting in unlicensed pictures from the internet into a wordprocessor and adding captions as far as I can make out
[12:11] <shauno> pretty much.  "how to use Word to do your homework, because no-one can read your handwriting anymore".
[12:12] <AlanBell> we went round a secondary school open day and in the ICT class the *first* thing the teacher said was "don't worry, there is no programming"
[12:12] <ali1234> ok, but how is raspberry pi filling the void? with proprietary hardware? it's like calculator manufacturers patenting long division and then doing everything they possibly can to prevent it from being taught
[12:13] <AlanBell> picaxe != raspberry pi
[12:13] <ali1234> i know
[12:13] <AlanBell> it is a microcontroller
[12:13] <AlanBell> that you program in BASIC pretty much
[12:13] <ali1234> PIC is something i can get behind
[12:13] <ali1234> AVR is better, but they are both documented well enough to be considered a decent learning environment
[12:14] <ali1234> no idea what PICAXE is but i've heard of it. is it like basic stamps?
[12:14] <AlanBell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PICAXE
[12:14] <ali1234> yes then. and like arduino too
[12:15] <AlanBell> yeah, arduino is the next level of complexity I think
[12:15] <ali1234> no, not at all
[12:15] <AlanBell> more pins
[12:15] <shauno> even 'back in my day' ICT was pretty much useless, because the students kept up with the times better than the teachers did.  when we went from logo on beeb micros, to win95 boxes, it was a toss-up as to who was teaching who
[12:15] <ali1234> PIC is almost identical to AVR in terms of complexity of use
[12:16] <ali1234> PIC hardware architecture is actually harder to use because it has really weird page flipping
[12:16] <ali1234> but the applications are identical
[12:16] <AlanBell> yeah, I only meant in terms of more pins and space to do stuff
[12:16] <ali1234> "more pins" does not make it more complex, you can get PIC and AVR with more or less pins...
[12:16] <ali1234> more flash memory too
[12:16] <AlanBell> oh, ok
[12:17] <ali1234> they are direct competitors
[12:17] <ali1234> identical market
[12:17] <bigcalm> Any recomendations for a nice in-line field editor? I have a page with a title that I want an admin to be able to click edit, change the title and save without being redirected around. Rather like WordPress does with their permalink
[12:18] <AlanBell> anyhow, ali1234 if you want to see programming in a school, go to the woodwork department, not the room with computers in it
[12:19] <ali1234> "woodwork"
[12:19] <ali1234> you realise it hasn't been called that since before i went to school?
[12:19] <AlanBell> resistant materials then
[12:19] <AlanBell> or design and technology
[12:20] <AlanBell> "the room with the wood and saws in it"
[12:20] <AlanBell> and perhaps the laser cutter and CNC mill and pneumatic valve array board
[12:21] <ali1234> yeah i never saw the CNC mill in use in 7 years i was at that school
[12:30] <neuro> hmm, downloading my 9.something gig "All Mail" folder off gmail may have been a bad idea
[12:30] <neuro> over three quarter of a million messages :P
[12:58] <mungbean> neuro: i use offlineimap for that
[12:59] <dwatkins> any conversation about Document Object Models causes hilights, as I'm 'Dom' on another IRC network.
[13:03] <mungbean> anyone used 500px?
[13:04] <mungbean> uploaded a tset bunch of pics (bad ones) and immediately got a load of "nice shot!" and faves. are they bots or the equivalent of twitter followers expecting follow backs.
[13:04] <mungbean> some were pretty lame shots
[13:05] <dwatkins> I don't see a 'new photos from all users' stream on there, mungbean
[13:06] <dwatkins> perhaps there's an RSS feed
[13:11] <mungbean> dwatkins: there's a "fresh" section
[13:11] <dwatkins> ah ok, I only saw 'upcoming' which implies 'photos other people have already voted on'
[13:17] <mungbean> i was hoping there was an esay way to bulk upload to the site ...seems not
[13:18] <dwatkins> can you cheat, and bulk-upload to flickr then move the folder across? ;)
[13:21] <mungbean> need a pro flikr account
[13:21] <mungbean> also my pro 500px account expires today
[13:21] <mungbean> think i won't bother..
[13:31] <mungbean> picasa don't seem to offer a way to even download the windows version if your client is windows :-|
[13:31] <mungbean> ^windows^linux
[13:32] <popey> http://dl.google.com/picasa/picasa39-setup.exe
[13:32] <mungbean> \o/ thanks
[13:33] <popey> np
[13:33] <mungbean> still my favourite photo manager
[13:43] <davmor2> popey: do you think Daviey would appreciate this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rnw0D2AdYU
[13:43] <popey> I'm gonna go ahead and not click that ☺
[13:43] <MartijnVdS> davmor2: win :)
[13:44] <davmor2> popey: Ah go on you know you want to :)
[13:44] <bigcalm> Hehe
[13:45] <Daviey> davmor2: die.
[13:45] <popey> there. no
[13:47] <davmor2> Daviey: :D
[14:18] <Laney> phablet-flashhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
[14:18] <Laney> etc
[14:19] <diplo> :)
[14:48] <redtape-renegade> I'm off to Coffee Republic with a friend for a mocha .. think I'll bring the netbook too ..
[15:45] <zleap> can anyone help or provide me with contact details with regard to ubuntu phones please ?
[15:47] <diplo> #ubuntu-phone ?
[15:47] <AlanBell> zleap: #ubuntu-phone is the place
[15:48] <AlanBell> zleap: and/or check ubuntuonair.com right now
[15:48] <zleap> this is for someone on tne exeter lug list
[15:48] <popey> what specifically do you need?
[15:49] <zleap> i mentioned i got some free cd's at the last meeting,  as i know one if you works at canonical,  hence he is asking me
[15:49] <popey> asking you what?
[15:49] <AlanBell> CDs are via me, and I don't work for canonical :)
[15:49] <zleap> about ubuntu phones
[15:50] <zleap> ok
[15:50] <popey> yes, what specifically do you / he need?
[15:50] <zleap>  > I am considering a Ubuntu Superphone and wanted tips on where to buy
[15:50] <zleap> > > and what brand etc.
[15:50] <popey> they dont exist yet
[15:51] <popey> you can flash existing android devices with a preview developer version
[15:51] <popey> but it's far from complete
[15:51] <zleap> ok
[15:51] <popey> but you can't buy an "ubuntu phone" in the shops
[15:51] <zleap> right so will we be able to buy in the shops ?
[15:51] <popey> in the future, yes
[15:52] <kvarley> popey: Is that guaranteed or is it dependent upon deals with manufacturers?
[15:52] <kvarley> /s/guaranteed/"guaranteed"
[15:52] <popey> well duh
[15:53] <directhex> no announcements RE hardware partners have been made yet?
[15:53] <popey> it is my considered opinion that at some point in the future you will be able to buy phones in the shops running ubuntu phone os
[15:53] <popey> better?
[15:53] <popey> correct directhex
[15:53] <kvarley> popey: Yes :)
[15:53] <zleap> ok thanks will pass that info on
[15:54] <directhex> possibly not on the high street, unless canonical manages a major-league HW partner
[15:54] <directhex> or a branded network operator effort
[15:54] <AlanBell> or a supermarket
[15:54] <directhex> i.e. the only time you see ZTE on the high street is when it says "orange" on it
[15:54] <kvarley> Ubuntu phones don't need to be on the high street for success though, do they?
[15:54] <AlanBell> the Asda phone (may contain horse and Ubuntu)
[15:54] <zleap> i wonder how many people have even heard of ubuntu to the point where they would buy a phone without seeing it first
[15:55] <kvarley> AlanBell hehe
[15:55] <directhex> horsebuntu!
[15:56] <zleap> lol
[15:56] <AlanBell> I wouldn't be surprised if they were sold in some disruptive way through some channel that isn't blocked by competition
[15:58] <neuro> corner shops? :)
[15:58] <zleap> computer shops perhaps
[15:58] <neuro> there are no real major computer shops in the uk these days
[15:59] <zleap> ok
[15:59] <neuro> which i guess is a testament to how pervasive technology is these days
[16:00] <neuro> you can just walk into tesco and buy a nexus 7 off the shelf, or a macbook pro, or an hp desktop
[16:00] <neuro> in fact i can't think of anything more disruptive than a major supermarket getting involved
[16:00] <neuro> massive supply chain, marketing up the wazoo, and competitive pricing (usually)
[16:01] <zleap> you need marketing
[16:02] <zleap> you need to get across why Ubuntu phone is better than andriod, iphone or windows
[16:02] <neuro> "better" is a very subjective term
[16:02] <zleap> so how to you sell it to someone
[16:02] <popey> you dont
[16:02] <neuro> as kvarley's and my chat this morning about OS X demonstrates
[16:02] <popey> yet
[16:02] <neuro> :)
[16:03] <popey> given it's not finished
[16:03] <zleap> oj so will a ubuntu phone integrate flawlessly with my ubuntu desktop ?
[16:03] <zleap> ok
[16:03] <neuro> right now the only people who need to be sold to are developers and OEMs
[16:03] <popey> and odms and carriers
[16:03] <neuro> and canonical is pretty good at that
[16:03] <zleap> so both will have ubuntu one
[16:03] <neuro> carriers, yeah
[16:03] <zleap> and maybe google integration for calenders etc
[16:03] <neuro> in fact i can imagine that carriers will be the only real sticking point
[16:04] <neuro> zleap: it's early days, i'd say
[16:04] <zleap> ok
[16:04] <AlanBell> zleap: calendar app isn't started
[16:04] <zleap> but integration is important snyc appointments etc,
[16:05] <AlanBell> well it is in terms of some people have been drawing pictures, but they don't know what back ends it has to support
[16:05] <zleap> AlanBell, no probs there
[16:05] <neuro> zleap: sync is a solved problem, i've no doubt it'll happen; it's too early along the line yet for that to be an overriding concern, i'd say :)
[16:05] <popey> lots to do
[16:05] <zleap> point is we are up against systems that JUST WORK i seen things like air something on apple
[16:05] <AlanBell> the core apps are being designed UI first then datamodel afterwards
[16:05] <zleap> air play ?
[16:06] <neuro> airplay is for broadcasting video or data to another device
[16:06] <zleap> surely core apps are going to be similar to desktop aps
[16:06] <neuro> e.g. apple tv
[16:06] <popey> not important on day 1
[16:06] <neuro> totally
[16:06] <AlanBell> zleap: not really, no
[16:06] <zleap> neuro, air play can transfer files between computers on a network
[16:06] <neuro> no, that's AirDrop
[16:06] <zleap> ah
[16:06] <zleap> sorry
[16:07] <neuro> and that's a mac-to-mac thing over bonjour
[16:07] <neuro> best not to think about this as being "versus" ios, OS X, android, etc
[16:07] <neuro> those markets are *mahoosive*
[16:07] <neuro> absolutely giant
[16:07] <zleap> i know
[16:07] <neuro> let them do their thing
[16:07] <zleap> so this is more specialist
[16:08] <popey> no, less
[16:08] <popey> there's a significant number of people who don't have smartphones
[16:08] <zleap> but ok
[16:08] <zleap> like me
[16:08] <neuro> if you start off trying to be a slave to someone else's UI model, or feature model, you end up chasing their tails forever
[16:08] <zleap> so this like a true OSS phone
[16:08] <neuro> i'm not sold on the whole gesture thing that ubuntu touch does, but that's just a personal opinion; it's great to see something different being tried
[16:08] <popey> there is plenty non-free in it
[16:10] <zleap> ok
[16:10] <zleap> so when are we looking at for a launch or is that too early yet ?
[16:11] <neuro> unless canonical somehow overnight become a hardware manufacturer, a fabless semiconductor designer, and a logistics company, IMHO it will ever be "true OSS" (i.e. zero non-free)
[16:11] <zleap> ok
[16:11] <neuro> cf raspberry pi
[16:11] <davmor2> neuro: nor was I till I saw it in action and then it made sense :)
[16:11] <neuro> davmor2: that's why i'm reserving absolute judgement until i finally get round to flashing my n7
[16:12] <neuro> and even then, as it's a dev preview, i'll still wait til final to be completely judgemental :)
[16:12] <popey> zleap: October ☺
[16:12] <zleap> ok
[16:12] <neuro> right, time to hassle garage about where the heck my car is ... *fume*
[16:12] <davmor2> neuro: it's a bit clunky on the n7 but it give you a good idea of how things will work
[16:16] <zleap> hi SamG2
[16:17] <SamG2> Hi just setting up client
[16:17] <zleap> sam we are sort of discussing ubuntu phone here
[16:17] <zleap> ok
[16:18] <SamG2> OK, i will listen, while looking into QML etc
[16:18] <zleap> ok
[16:19] <zleap> may also want to hang out in #ubuntu-on-air
[16:19]  * bigcalm looks in to see popey mention October and starts to worry
[16:19] <popey> ☺
[16:20] <Laney> the example content amuses me
[16:20] <Laney> that picture of ev
[16:38] <davmor2> Laney: which one is it I can't remember is he in gnome mode (with beard)
[16:39] <popey> davmor2: he has froth on his nose
[16:40] <davmor2> popey: ah yes massive cup of coffee iirc
[16:54] <Laney> popey: where did you get ddms?
[16:54] <Laney> in the sauce?
[17:42] <popey> Laney: android-sdk
[17:42] <popey> alan@deep-thought:~/android-sdk-linux/tools$ file ddms
[17:42] <popey> ddms: Bourne-Again shell script, ASCII text executable
[17:43] <Laney> yeah, a separate download
[17:43] <Laney> all things should be in the archive!
[18:17] <directhex> WHO LIKES COMPUTOR GAMEZ!?!
[18:18] <bigcalm> o/
[18:18] <bigcalm> I likez them a lot more than the unit tests I'm writing right now
[18:19] <directhex> WHO ELSE
[18:19] <davmor2> directhex: I do when I get time
[18:19] <bigcalm> :O
[18:20]  * bigcalm hugs directhex 
[18:21] <directhex> davmor2, you don't count, you're not on my steam friends list
[18:24] <dutchie> computor gamez are funz
[18:35] <bigcalm> Shows a linux client on the website but not in Steam itself. Silly Steam
[18:36] <directhex> bigcalm, uploading currently, apparently
[18:41] <dutchie> which game is this?
[18:56] <popey> bigcalm: what game?
[19:22] <bigcalm> directhex: ah
[19:22] <bigcalm> popey: Guns of Icarus Online - no idea what it is though :D
[19:23] <popey> oh
[19:26] <davmor2> directhex: popey and gord are good target audience members
[19:26] <davmor2> oh popey you are there
[19:26] <popey> hm?
[19:26] <davmor2> popey: I wrote that earlier and forgot to hit enter
[20:34] <notdrunk> hey there ubuntu-uk, how do i actually get to system - administrator - hardware drivers, searching using the lense in the unity interface yeilds zero results, its to enable wireless
[20:38] <notdrunk> ?
[20:39] <AlanBell> I have a date stamp from a sqlite database dump that looks like '\x07\xd9\x01\x01\x00\x07.\x0c\xb9\x19' and I believe it to mean 2009-01-01T00:07:46
[20:39] <AlanBell> how do I interpret the hex to come up with that date?
[20:40] <DJones> notdrunk: If you mean additional drivers they some up in software sources in 12.10
[20:41] <mungbean> and its called jockey-gtk
[20:42] <notdrunk> dont know DJones , it was suggeste when i searched about wireless and spent alot of time looking for administrator and hardware drivers and found nothing
[20:42] <notdrunk> there is no wireless so the suggested solution was impossible to attempt
[20:42] <DJones> mungbean: Not anymore, jockey-gtk was incorporated into Software Sources in 12.10, if you try running jockey-gtk in terminal, it says not installed, when you install & run again, it still says  not installed
[20:44] <AlanBell> ah, I see it now, 07d9 is 2009 and the rest lines up
[20:45] <notdrunk> DJones: when i restart the computer to get into ubunutu i should search for software sources and find my drivers there? if the search for software soureces actually yeilds results other than some amazon bargains
[20:45] <notdrunk> ?
[20:45] <DJones> What version of Ubuntu are you using
[20:46] <notdrunk> quantal quetzal?
[20:46] <DJones> ok, with Unity?
[20:46] <notdrunk> yesh
[20:47] <DJones> If you click the menu in the top right, go to System Settings, and then Software Sources, there is a tab for Additional Drivers
[20:47] <notdrunk> kewlies
[20:47] <notdrunk> laters
[20:47] <notdrunk> oh and thanksh :)
[21:53]  * jacobw figures out what openstack is