[00:37] <len_1304> zequence, it looks like we need something like kgamma... with out the k
[00:38] <zequence> len_1304: When it comes to that, I really have no clue, so whatever you say :)
[00:38] <zequence> It's one of those things that would be good for someone to do some research on
[00:38] <zequence> Someone who had only, say, graphics to worry about
[00:41] <zequence> ..since it's also video related, is what I mean
[00:43] <len_1304> Yes
[00:44] <len_1304> I think there should be a setting for it in xfce settings.
[00:44] <len_1304> I may whip up a python app that plays with xrandr
[00:45] <len_1304> Maybe the xfce4 display settings is already in python. I should find out.
[06:36] <astraljava> Len-nb: You're absolutely right. No one's taken a look at settings for a couple of releases. I ran out of time last night (way too much work), I'll try again Wednesday evening.
[15:21] <holstein> i swear i could build a case for not including JACK by default
[15:23] <zequence> The problem is that people coming from Windows think that starting applications is enough, and the audio should just work
[15:23] <zequence> ..and I guess it would be good, if it did
[15:24] <holstein> right, and windows nor osx do what we do anyway
[15:24] <zequence> I'm considering trying to push for such a change in the whole LA world. But, it might not be that simple, as there are multiple jacks around
[15:24] <holstein> nothing ships with everything "out of the box"
[15:34] <holstein> zequence: we need that page as a bot popup
[15:34] <holstein> !proaudio
[15:35] <zequence> holstein: Can you program it?
[15:36] <holstein> !audio
[15:36] <holstein> zequence: no, but lemme check...
[15:40] <zequence> I don't have ops privileges, and don't know much about bots
[15:43] <holstein> i think i know who maintains it
[15:43] <holstein> i'll check..
[16:17] <insomniaSalt> hi all!
[16:18] <insomniaSalt> finally, I managed to route flash audio trough jack (so I don't have to stop JACK when I need to youtube as part of my workflow)
[16:19] <zequence> insomniaSalt: there is a module on by default, which does that for you. Did you try it?
[16:20] <insomniaSalt> not entirely sure
[16:20] <zequence> If you start jack with qjackctl, pulseaudio creates sink and source for jack
[16:20] <insomniaSalt> I'm in here because I was wondering if there's any better way
[16:20] <insomniaSalt> that, for some reason didnt work
[16:20] <zequence> Then, if you go into the PA mixer, you can set PA to use jack
[16:21] <insomniaSalt> I connected sink to system in qjackctl
[16:21] <insomniaSalt> but that PA mixer pref, where is it supposed to be?
[16:21] <zequence> in outputs
[16:21] <zequence> Just like if you would choose an audio device, you choose jack
[16:22] <insomniaSalt> Output Devices tab
[16:22] <zequence> It would be better if PA set itself to use jack by default, when you start jack. This is something I'd like to happen in the future
[16:22] <zequence> Yes
[16:22] <insomniaSalt> shows my two soundcards
[16:22] <zequence> Is jack running?
[16:22] <insomniaSalt> and I can select a "port" from a dropdown
[16:22] <insomniaSalt> running and playing sound currently
[16:22] <zequence> How are you starting jack. Is it jackdbus, or jackd?
[16:22] <insomniaSalt> lemme see messages window
[16:22] <zequence> Are you using qjackctl, with default settings?
[16:23] <insomniaSalt> 16:57:14.376 D-BUS: Service not available (org.jackaudio.service aka jackdbus).
[16:23] <insomniaSalt> 16:57:14.383 JACK is starting...
[16:23] <insomniaSalt> 16:57:14.383 /usr/bin/jackd -dalsa -dhw:0 -r44100 -p1024 -n2
[16:23] <zequence> That looks pretty default
[16:23] <insomniaSalt> qjackctl, yes
[16:23] <zequence> insomniaSalt: Check in: Setup -> Misc, and look fot the dbus option
[16:23] <zequence> Is it enabled?
[16:24] <insomniaSalt> yes (also default I guess)
[16:24] <zequence> Yep
[16:24] <zequence> insomniaSalt: So, I don't know how you're making the PA jack connection right now, but what I would like you to do is shut everything down, logout, and login again
[16:24] <insomniaSalt> anyways, what I did was use libflashsupport.c from Torben Hohn minus the V4L stuff
[16:25] <zequence> Ah, ok
[16:25] <insomniaSalt> weird thing is sometimes there is Sink and Source in connection window, sometimes not
[16:25] <insomniaSalt> but no matter, no flashsound
[16:25] <zequence> If you restart jack sometimes the thing fails
[16:25] <zequence> I'd use the module over the libflashsupport thing
[16:26] <zequence> The module is in its own package, called pulseaudio-module-jack. It's installed by efault
[16:26] <zequence> To try it, remove the libflash thing, logout, login, and then start jack
[16:26] <zequence> If you see the PA sink and source, set PA to use jack. Done
[16:26] <insomniaSalt> currently not there
[16:26] <zequence> could be the libflash thing is blocking it. 
[16:27] <insomniaSalt> also, sometimes I've to log out and in again, or else jack won't even start
[16:27] <zequence> I don't really know
[16:27] <zequence> insomniaSalt: Yes, that's a jack bug
[16:27] <insomniaSalt> nah, t'was the same before
[16:27] <insomniaSalt> trying again
[16:27] <zequence> insomniaSalt: When that happens, you can kill jack in a terminal: killall -9 jackdbus
[16:28] <zequence> insomniaSalt: There's a fix for jack, which I'm trying to get in for 12.04. Right now, it works fine on 13.04
[16:33] <insomniaSalt> no sink, no source :(
[16:33] <zequence> insomniaSalt: Well, they usually don't fail on a clean system, when starting jack for the first time in a session
[16:33] <zequence> insomniaSalt: Did you remove the libflash thing?
[16:35] <insomniaSalt> doubt that's it but I do 
[16:38] <zequence> insomniaSalt: pulseaudio-module-jack is installed? You sure you get the sink and source at times?
[16:40] <insomniaSalt> used to, at least
[16:41] <insomniaSalt> quick reboot just to make sure
[16:50] <insomniaSalt> reboot, login, start Qjackctl: The playback device "hw:0" is already in use  (...) pulseaudio
[16:50] <insomniaSalt> $ pulseaudio -k
[16:50] <insomniaSalt> only then jack starts
[16:51] <insomniaSalt> then automatically relaunching pulse as it seems
[17:00] <zequence> insomniaSalt: PA is set to autospawn
[17:00] <zequence> insomniaSalt: Try doing this. In a terminal, do: pasuspender -- && sleep 15
[17:00] <zequence> Then, while PA is suspended, start jack
[17:01] <zequence> Wait, that doesn't work :P
[17:02] <zequence> pasuspender -- sleep 60, or whatever
[17:02] <zequence> You can do Ctl+C to end the sleep once jack is running
[17:02] <zequence> insomniaSalt: Ah, first kill jack though
[17:02] <zequence> killall -0 jackdbus
[17:02] <zequence> killall -9 jackdbus*
[17:03] <zequence> insomniaSalt: If PA is set to use the same device as jack, it might not let go of the device
[17:03] <zequence> It's a PA bug
[17:03] <zequence> Works best if you are not using PA to do anything
[17:03] <insomniaSalt> :-)
[17:03] <insomniaSalt> that's how I fixed audio an my gentoo box
[17:04] <insomniaSalt> uninstall pa, global useflag -pa
[17:04] <insomniaSalt> looking at my shell history, it seems somewhere along the process I had to install jack and jack-dev packages, how can that be
[17:04] <insomniaSalt> weird!
[17:04] <insomniaSalt> trying the sleep thing
[17:05] <zequence> insomniaSalt: You probably needed the jack-dev to build the libflash thing
[17:05] <insomniaSalt> yes, idd. but what about the former? :-)
[17:05] <insomniaSalt> and qjackctl got autoremoved in between
[17:06] <insomniaSalt> then i reinstalled it, now it won't be autoremoved anymore
[17:06] <insomniaSalt> weird
[17:08] <zequence> insomniaSalt: The dev libraries depend on jack1 libs. Why qjackctl got removed has to do with dependencies
[17:08] <insomniaSalt> $ pgrep jackdbus
[17:08] <zequence> It's not very slick
[17:09] <insomniaSalt> jackdbus ain't ever running
[17:10] <insomniaSalt> sleep is over, pulse seems running (pgrep returns a PID), and still no sink/source :(
[17:10] <insomniaSalt> and jackdbus never even ran to begin with
[17:11] <insomniaSalt> only jackd
[17:11] <zequence> insomniaSalt: is jackd2 installed?
[17:12] <zequence> If you didn't reinstall it, you might be running jackd1
[17:12] <zequence> Which doesn't support dbus. jackdbus is a part of the jackd2 package
[17:12] <insomniaSalt> no d2
[17:12] <insomniaSalt> yay!
[17:13] <insomniaSalt> removing d1 d1-firewire libjack-dev and libjack0
[17:13] <insomniaSalt> in favour of d2
[17:14] <insomniaSalt> welcome back sink/source
[17:14] <insomniaSalt> xD
[17:15] <insomniaSalt> oh dear
[17:15] <insomniaSalt> it works!
[17:16] <insomniaSalt> but the setting in PAmixer is "hidden" in the playback tab
[17:16] <insomniaSalt> there, I didn't look before
[17:17] <insomniaSalt> currently hearing sound from youtube -> PA -> Jack
[17:17]  * insomniaSalt starts Mixxx and prays
[17:17] <insomniaSalt> which instantly killed the sound
[17:21] <zequence> Well, that's probably not related to the module, rather on Mixxx itself
[17:22] <insomniaSalt> it made entire firefox crash
[17:22] <zequence> flash is probably the crook there
[17:23] <zequence> When PA misbehaves, flash gets annoyed
[17:23] <insomniaSalt> educational experience, still
[17:24] <zequence> Trying to get ArdourXchange working. Have got it working in the past. Damn, I need it now
[17:25] <insomniaSalt> verdict: back to the libflashsupport-jack thingy (the main purpose of all this being to enable people other than me to work at this computer, lol)
[17:27] <insomniaSalt> minor thing: still no html5sound then
[17:29] <zequence> Anything that works with PA will go through the module
[17:30] <zequence> The module needs to be worked on, and is the best way to integrate jack with PA
[17:30] <zequence> The libflash thing only works on flash, no?
[17:30] <zequence> Not really an option
[17:30] <zequence> and, does it work with jackd2?
[17:32] <insomniaSalt> doubtful, I'll report
[17:33] <insomniaSalt> indeed, make fails because of "No package 'jack' found
[17:34] <zequence> WHen I say module, I'm talking about pulseaudio-module-jack, or module-jackdbus-detect, not the libflash thing
[17:34] <insomniaSalt> I'm aware :)
[17:34] <zequence> You can't compile libflash without jack dev packages, and those can't be installed when jackd2 is installed
[17:35] <zequence> it's weird
[17:35] <zequence> Hopefully jack devs come to resolution on those things at some point
[17:37] <insomniaSalt> I'm more than happy to go back to jackd1 + libflashsupport-jack till then, seems the only way to have "agressive" applications such as Mixxx running througgh jack while simoultaneously being able to route sound from flash-based sources
[17:38] <zequence> insomniaSalt: It's Mixxx that is the problem in this case
[17:38] <zequence> insomniaSalt: Try disabling the PA module, and use only jack with Mixxx
[17:38] <zequence> Probably it has bad jack code in it
[17:39] <zequence> It has jack support, doesn't it? Or is it ALSA only
[17:39] <zequence> Mixxx is not agressive. Just poorly written
[17:39] <insomniaSalt> basically everything
[17:39] <insomniaSalt> yes, tend to notice that too at times
[17:40] <insomniaSalt> oss alsa jack pa
[17:40] <insomniaSalt> but being able to use Mixx is not really the point, it's just a good example of an application that behaves bad
[17:41] <insomniaSalt> (imho)
[17:41] <zequence> An application that behaves bad with jackdbus, not PA, if you're using the jack interface, that is
[17:42] <zequence> There are other examples of jack apps that work poorly on one jack, and better on the other
[17:42] <insomniaSalt> and mix is also an example of an application that people using this setup from hell expect to work (same as flash)
[17:43] <zequence> The PA interconnection is not a big deal
[17:43] <zequence> The module is quite stable
[17:43] <zequence> There are some bugs related to PA and jack, which do not really have to do with the module itself
[17:45] <zequence> In some situations audio might get blocked as a result of using jack with PA, adjusting settings, starting/stopping, etc.
[17:45] <zequence> There could of course be something in the module that causes some weirdness, but in most cases, I would say the bugs are either in PA itself, or jack itself, not in the module
[17:46] <insomniaSalt> with that jackd2/module setup I'd be happier if stuff wasnt crashing all the time :-)
[17:46] <zequence> Badly written jack apps can make jack crash. In that case, it's the app that is bad
[17:46] <insomniaSalt> yes!
[17:47] <zequence> I don't experience any crashing with jack2 and PA
[17:47] <zequence> But, I'm not using Mixxx
[17:47] <insomniaSalt> crashing the client software that is, not pa or jackd
[17:48] <zequence> ..aside from the jack bug, when trying to stop jack (on 12.04, and 12.10)
[17:49] <zequence> Right now, I'd like to write emails to every programmer in the world, and tell them: please, please, please - use standards!!!!
[17:49] <zequence> I want to export a session from Cubase to Ardour
[17:49] <zequence> There's a tool for it, but I can't get it working
[17:49] <insomniaSalt> there is an xkcd about that
[17:50] <insomniaSalt> where it says,  now because of you we have n+1 standards
[17:50] <insomniaSalt> :-)
[17:51] <insomniaSalt> meh cubase :(
[17:51] <zequence> creating custom formats should lead to jail sentences
[17:51]  * insomniaSalt is a freetard somehow
[17:52] <zequence> Maybe what I should do is write a OMF to ardour converter
[17:53] <zequence> omf is actually an open standard
[17:54] <zequence> ardour just needs to have it implemented
[17:54] <insomniaSalt> people will always try an be evil
[17:54] <insomniaSalt> like that tetra pak machine patent that forbade people other than the proprietor to produce paks that could be filled with these machines
[17:55] <insomniaSalt> until they were sued for trust
[17:56] <insomniaSalt> abuse of dominant market position is what that's called
[17:57] <zequence> In this case, the proprietary application does support the open format, while the free one does not
[17:58] <insomniaSalt> go, implement! 
[17:58] <insomniaSalt> :)
[17:58] <insomniaSalt> but then, how often does the open format specification and reference implementation by steinberg change?
[17:58] <insomniaSalt> if you're unlucky twice a week
[17:58] <insomniaSalt> have fun trying to keep up 
[17:59] <insomniaSalt> (not sure about that, but possible in theory, 'pseudo-open' standards existed before)
[18:02] <zequence> It's not a Steinberg format
[18:02] <zequence> It's an open format that many DAWs support
[18:03] <zequence> Includign Steinbergs various DAWs, Pro Tools, It think pretty much all the big ones
[18:04] <insomniaSalt> avid, ic.
[18:04] <zequence> As long as you can get the files into their right places, with tempos, etc.
[18:07] <insomniaSalt> there seem to be different 'flavours' of OMF, too :-)
[18:11] <zequence> Yeaaah!!. Now I get to do export one track at the time!
[18:11] <insomniaSalt> >tool for it
[18:11] <insomniaSalt> aatranslator?
[18:14] <zequence> I already have a tool, that doesn't work
[18:14] <zequence> ArdourXchange
[18:14] <zequence> I got it to work last year, but not now
[18:30] <insomniaSalt> learned a lot more, but now my headache got much worse, time to stop and find something to eat
[19:00] <holstein> !proaudio
[19:00] <zequence> holstein: Alright
[19:00] <holstein> right! :)
[19:00] <holstein> zequence: knome hooked us up
[19:00] <zequence> Great
[19:23] <zequence> Damn, I nearly had it working
[20:28] <zequence> holstein: For now, I just included the 1204 page into the page that !proaudio links to
[20:28] <zequence> !proaudio
[20:28] <zequence> So, same as before now
[20:28] <zequence> You need to refresh, to see the change
[20:29] <holstein> zequence: i like it
[21:41] <zequence> Been updating the kernel for a while now. Every 3 weeks, or, a little more often. Sometimes there's a sudden critical update.
[21:42] <zequence> A run a script, and then, I try not mess up the manual bit, where I edit the changelog
[21:42] <zequence> Messed it up three times already :P