[12:16] <zequence> Len-nb: The stereo by default patch was just accepted for pulseaudio as a result of the discussions on LAU
[12:39] <zequence> I've begun buildint the linux-lowlatency packages now as well, so, pretty much taking over the procedure completely now. Means my packages are getting sponsored, and hopefully that could lead to upload rights in the future
[13:27] <ttoine> scott-work, did you see in the log that I can have a licence to sell ubuntu studio branded stuff for free ?
[13:27] <ttoine> imagine some official t-shirt, baseball caps or mugs we can do
[13:27] <scott-work> ttoine: no, i didn't see that. that is outstanding news! how did this occur?
[13:28] <ttoine> I send an email to get a licence some monthes ago
[13:28] <ttoine> I almost forget it
[13:28] <ttoine> and this week, I get an answer with a "sorry to be late"
[13:29] <ttoine> and they asked to confirm my interest for such a licence
[13:29] <ttoine> I confirmed, explain it would be great for the community to have stuff like that
[13:29] <ttoine> and they say ok. trhey send me a .doc form to fill
[13:30] <scott-work> wow. very cool. i'm glad they did that
[13:31] <ttoine> scott-work, the question is: if I or we have a licence, what is the best place to create/sell merchandising without spending too much time on it, with good quality goods, and international delivery...
[13:43] <zequence> scott-work: we should discuss what to do next week at UDS. It's Tue/Wed, so perhaps Mon would be a good day
[13:44] <zequence> Len-nb: Actually, the patch ended up in the upstream source, credit to David H
[13:46]  * smartboyhw says hi to scott-work 
[13:46] <smartboyhw> zequence, to discuss what?
[13:54] <zequence> smartboyhw: Just what we should focus on during UDS, and make sure we are on top of whatever changes are being discussed, etc
[13:55] <smartboyhw> zequence, OK
[13:55] <smartboyhw> BTW let me remind you of our schedule:P
[13:55] <smartboyhw> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-flavor-ubuntustudio.html
[13:55] <smartboyhw> Basically we failed at workflows:P
[13:56] <zequence> smartboyhw: actually, I don't find that status to be very representative for our work this cycle
[13:56] <smartboyhw> zequence, well then should we update it (a bit)?
[13:57] <zequence> smartboyhw: I'll take care of that, np
[13:57] <smartboyhw> zequence, :)
[14:02] <zequence> smartboyhw: But, it's true. We should prepare for the 13.04 release
[14:03] <smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
[14:22] <scott-work> ttoine: that is a good question. we could look at what xubuntu or other non-ubuntu projects (e.g. linux outlaws) use. we certainly want to make sure we can cover most locales, not just EU/US
[14:22] <scott-work> zequence: we certainly can discuss what we are doing. but then again, we could also discuss not discussing anything until may ;)
[14:23] <scott-work> smartboyhw: good morning. how are you doing?
[14:23] <smartboyhw> scott-work, :)
[14:24] <smartboyhw> scott-work, what's ttoine's question BTW?
[14:29] <scott-work> smartboyhw: <ttoine> scott-work, the question is: if I or we have a licence, what is the best place to create/sell merchandising without spending too much time on it, with good quality goods, and international delivery...
[14:29] <smartboyhw> scott-work, ah
[14:29] <scott-work> i have heard/read people suggesting cafepress, et al in cases like this, but then i have also heard that the quality is not optimal
[14:30] <ttoine> I am open to any idea. I think that I will ask some of the artist in my friends
[14:30] <ttoine> and look too where it is possible to create small quantities of stuff
[14:30] <ttoine> I don't think we will sell thousands / month :-)
[14:30] <smartboyhw> ttoine, :)
[14:30] <scott-work> if i were to wear a ubuntu studio tshirt, hoodie, polo shirt, whatever, i would certainly want to have a nice piece of merchandise, not somehting that looks like a thrift shop hand-me down
[14:31] <smartboyhw> scott-work, /me wants a ubuntu studio tshirt
[14:31] <smartboyhw> ttoine, ^
[14:31] <scott-work> ttoine: another good point
[14:31] <smartboyhw> :P
[14:31] <zequence> Len-nb: A new release of PA coming with my patches, within a day or two
[14:32] <ttoine> scott-work, at the moment, I only have internet at work
[14:33] <ttoine> so I won't suggest any solution this week ;-)
[14:33] <ttoine> I am ttoine, I am not alone, I don't forget, expect me ;-)
[14:34] <scott-work> hehe :)
[14:34] <smartboyhw> heh heh
[15:06] <len_1304> scott-work, we are adding krita to the mix, that ok? Seems much more advanced than mypaint
[15:06] <len_1304> zequence, I didn't get to it last night...
[15:07] <scott-work> len_1304: i think that is a really good application for graphics/drawings. agreed that it is much better than mypaint. and we already ship quite a few kde libraries already with k3b and kdenlive
[15:08] <len_1304> k3b has problems with wodem, works better with cdrecord... I have ruined a few DVDs before I gave up on it and used brasero.
[15:10] <len_1304> I am told, the difference is that wodem does not deal well with on the fly work, but is ok if an image is written to disk first.
[15:12] <scott-work> there are people who really, really like k3b. i admit that i prefer brasero over k3b. i have found that brasero crashed less and i prefer the cleaner/simpler interface over k3b
[15:12] <zequence> len_1304: Did you solve the issue on why k3b was included?
[15:12] <len_1304> No.
[15:12] <zequence> It seems like no one actually wanted it in, so perhaps we should discuss removing it?
[15:13] <scott-work> kdenlive might be bringing it in, no?
[15:13] <smartboyhw> So what's the discussion?
[15:13] <len_1304> Anyway, I need to get going. be back in 5 or 6 hours.
[15:13]  * smartboyhw has missed the conversatino
[15:13] <smartboyhw> s/conversatino/conversation/
[15:13] <kubotu> smartboyhw meant: "has missed the conversation"
[15:13] <zequence> smartboyhw: Just follow the log
[15:13] <len_1304> kdenlive is not dependant on k3b
[15:14] <zequence> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5576526/
[15:14] <len_1304> It did show up at the same time as we added kdenlive though, so it may be a subdep... but If I look at the list of what is dependant on k3b... none are installed.
[17:47] <holstein> i have to say, i am a +1 for virtual UDS's
[17:48] <holstein> theres no way i could ever afford to take that kind of time off and go in person
[18:20] <zequence> There's a discussion about rolling release on http://ubuntuonair.com/
[18:20] <zequence> And #ubuntu-on-air
[18:21] <zequence> holstein: len_1304 scott-work ^
[18:43] <holstein> i dont think it could happen til the next LTS
[18:43] <holstein> i can see both sides..
[18:46] <zequence> holstein: They are talking about making raring the next LTS
[18:46] <zequence> Right now, nothing is for sure
[18:47] <zequence> raring would then be not released until 14.04
[18:47] <holstein> wow!
[18:47] <holstein> thats epic
[18:47] <holstein> quite a change of plans
[18:47] <holstein> i think the every 6 month thing does a few things.. builds buzz, and gets folks hustling
[18:49] <zequence> holstein: They're talking about monthly snapshots, but I'm more in favor of the Debian model
[18:49] <zequence> LTS == stable. Rolling == testing
[18:49] <zequence> And then, you'd have an experimental repo for packages that need to be smoke tested before releasing on the rolling release
[18:50] <holstein> yeah, kind of the best of everything.. they could still even release something every 6 months intead of "release when its ready"
[18:50] <zequence> Well, the rolling release would be like a new release every day
[18:51] <zequence> While the LTS is great for high security production systems
[19:19] <holstein> zequence: i knew you could knock that issue out.. 
[19:20] <zequence> It's not easy when the system might have been messed up by a lot of custom work
[19:20] <zequence> A fresh install does help
[19:20] <zequence> Then you know what you are working with
[19:20] <zequence> Really the live DVD is that too
[19:21] <holstein> i know... i hate that for them.. like that mint user last night
[19:21] <holstein> i like having the live DVD to test against
[19:23] <zequence> Yeah. We could have a script for them. "Here, use this, and paste the output from the text file that appeared in your home folder"
[19:23] <zequence> then we know what they have
[19:24] <holstein> yeah.. jack versions and ppa's added
[19:52] <zequence> holstein, len_1304, scott-work, I'd like to put all the audio metas into one. Any objections? 
[19:52] <zequence> We've talked about this before, but I'm not sure what the consensus was
[19:52] <zequence> I'm going through our blueprints, and looking at what we still have time for
[19:55] <zequence> I'm setting a bunch of stuff to postponed. One could still decide to do some of those
[20:17] <scott-work> zequence: i don't disagree
[20:34] <zequence> scott-work: I'm not sure I get how seeds work. STRUCTURE I think I do get. But, how about the actual metas? How are they created?
[20:36] <zequence> In each file for a meta, there's also a dependency for the meta itself
[20:36] <zequence> I mean, say the file "generation" in seeds
[20:36] <zequence> It has ubuntustudio-generation as a dependency
[20:37] <zequence> But, isn't the file "generation" what is creating the "ubuntustudio-generation" meta in the first place?
[20:37] <zequence> Or is there something more?
[20:56] <holstein> zequence: you mean, keep them seperate, but have one for everything as well?
[20:56] <zequence> holstein: No. Just keep one meta for all of them
[20:56] <zequence> Or, rather, one task for all of them
[20:57] <holstein> zequence: i can get with whatever is easiest to maintain
[20:57] <zequence> It's probably more of a pedantism thing. I'm thinking it should be simple
[20:57] <zequence> But I also like having options
[20:58] <zequence> When installing from a netinstall (alternate), or in the future, when installing from our live DVD, one has options
[20:58] <zequence> I'm thinking one per workflow is enough
[20:59] <zequence> hmm, I'm looking through the source package ubuntustudio-meta
[20:59] <zequence> I'm thinkint that's where the metas happen, and a bunch of other things
[21:00] <zequence> There's some old stuff there that should be cleaned out
[21:01] <zequence> hmm, the seeds is only for the ISO, right?
[21:01] <zequence> I'm not getting this
[21:02] <scott-work> zequence: i'm looking for my previous notes on adding the metas, just a minute
[21:03] <scott-work> zequence: see if this helps at all: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Sandbox#Modifying_Seeds
[21:03] <zequence> scott-work: Thanks. This makes sense
[21:03] <zequence> The meta was the missing link there
[21:04] <zequence> I was just going through it
[21:04] <scott-work> cool :)  i'm glad that helped, i wasn't really sure it owuld
[21:04] <scott-work> would
[21:26] <Len-nb> zequence, the seeds are for the ISO creation, the metas are for using with netinstall/mini.iso.
[21:27] <Len-nb> I agree one audio meta. Or if there is any split... one for >>CLI stuff and one for gui.
[21:28] <Len-nb> But as it is, jack is CLI but it still drags in X libs anyway.
[21:28] <zequence> Actually, metas don't show in a netinstall just because they are metas. I think the seeds are what does that
[21:28] <zequence> It's not metas on the netinstall. It's tasks
[21:29] <Len-nb> Could be.
[21:29] <Len-nb> A note of easy transition :)
[21:29] <zequence> I'm not fully on the boat with how this works, but from how it looks, the meta is being auto updated form the contents in seeds
[21:29] <Len-nb> use one of the meta names we already have
[21:29] <zequence> But the meta has some controlling files in it too
[21:29] <Len-nb> No it is not auto.
[21:30] <zequence> Len-nb: Do the metas differ from the seeds?
[21:30] <Len-nb> When the seeds are up dated an email goes to micahg and he rolls the metas
[21:30] <Len-nb> The seeds take effect on the next ISO roll
[21:30] <zequence> Len-nb: Yes, but the way they are updated is through germinate
[21:31] <zequence> Again, not fully in sync with how it works, but germinate is a program that translates seed files
[21:31] <Len-nb> I have had the ISO correct and the metas not for weeks after changing the seeds.
[21:31] <zequence> I see
[21:31]  * micahg noticed the last update, it's on the list for me to upload :)
[21:32] <Len-nb> I will do another add today micahg , so wait till you see it.
[21:32] <Len-nb> It will be graphics.
[21:32] <micahg> ok, sure, it won't be until Sat night at the earliest
[21:33] <zequence> micahg: Could you let me in on how you roll the meta
[21:33] <micahg> I need to update my chroots and -settings is hopefully before it
[21:33] <Len-nb> Ya that makes sense
[21:33] <zequence> micahg: I was looking at the rules file and it just does a germinate things
[21:33] <micahg> zequence: pull-lp-source ubuntustudio-meta, cd into the dir, ./update, debuild -S -sa
[21:33] <micahg> oops
[21:34] <micahg> before debuild cd into the new dir
[21:34] <micahg> modify changelog as needed, then debuild
[21:34] <micahg> and I compare the old and new before upload to make sure nothing extraneous or undocumented is listed and I test build as well
[21:35] <zequence> micahg: And it updates from seeds? How does that happen?
[21:35] <micahg> yeah, that's germinate magic, you need some things installed
[21:36] <zequence> micahg: If I change the metas, I only need to edit debian/control ?
[21:36] <zequence> As well as the seed files..
[21:37] <zequence> I'm thinking of baking some metas together
[21:39] <micahg> zequence: for what?
[21:40] <micahg> debian/control only needs to be modified if there's a new meta or dependency not recognized in the seed
[21:41]  * micahg has to run right now, will check backscroll
[21:43] <Len-nb> zequence, if we use one of the current metas for audio and just move all the audio stuff into it. Things will go pretty much automatically.
[21:44] <Len-nb> If we change the name we have a new meta... which is what messed things up when we added publishing and photography
[21:46] <zequence> Len-nb: There's a slight difference between some of the metas. ubuntustudio-audio only depends on metas right now. That is the one we'll use namewise, but it will probably need to be altered
[21:47] <zequence> There are two parts in this. The seeds and the metas. We'll just need to get both right
[21:47] <Len-nb> zequence, if we put all the apps from recording, generation, audio plugin into audio common it should work ok.
[21:48] <zequence> I don't think audio-common is a meta at all
[21:48] <zequence> It's just a seed list that other seed lists include or something
[21:48] <Len-nb> Just a seed?
[21:49] <zequence> The other audio metas, -generation -recording and such are built from the seeds. 
[21:49] <Len-nb> It looks like it ends up as ubuntustudio-audio... but I should check
[21:49] <zequence> Len-nb: Take a look at the seed "recording"
[21:50] <zequence> And compare that with the depends of ubuntustudio-recording
[21:50] <zequence> What you see is the sum of audio-common and recording in seeds
[21:50] <zequence> Now, there's description in the top of some seed files, and I'm taking that they can make those seeds into tasks for a netinstall ISO
[21:51] <zequence> But, the actual meta is created from the ubuntustudio-meta debian source
[21:51] <zequence> Or, the metas
[21:52] <zequence> Len-nb: If you take a look at the source for ubuntustudio-meta: pull-lp-source ubuntustudio-meta
[21:52] <zequence> in debian/control
[21:52] <zequence> There's some info on the metas
[21:52] <zequence> And note the function "germinate" everywhere
[21:52] <zequence> It's related to seeds
[21:52] <zequence> Also debian/rules, which is what holds instructions on how to build the package, only has one line
[21:53] <Len-nb> Well in that case it looks like we have to create a new meta.
[21:53] <zequence> Or modify ubuntustudio-audio, and remove the others
[21:54] <Len-nb> in which case I would suggest creating it, but not removing what we have till the new one is released.
[21:54] <zequence> I was thinking of making this change before feature freeze
[21:54] <zequence> I'm going to test it first
[21:54] <Len-nb> That way we will not end up with iso that are missing some apps.
[21:56] <zequence> It's just a matter of getting it right. And we have time. It's better we do it now, when we still can
[21:56] <zequence> After feature freeze, we should not be making any changes anymore
[21:57] <zequence> Just fix bugs
[21:57] <zequence> I'll dabble a bit, and test in my own PPA
[21:57] <zequence> I think it would be good for us to start rolling our own packages
[21:57] <zequence> And have them sponsored
[21:58] <zequence> Eventually, we should try becoming ubuntu devs and have upload rights
[22:00] <micahg> +1 to sponsored uploads, metas usually aren't the best place to start though
[22:01] <zequence> micahg: We're going to put some metas together into one. Currently ubuntustudio-audio is only depending on other metas, but we want it to be the only audio meta from now on. And we want a seed file for it, one which also is a task on the netinstall ISO
[22:02] <zequence> From what I understand, the metas are created in debian/control
[22:02] <micahg> ok, so that needs changes in the seed, meta, and live-build AIUI
[22:02] <zequence> live-build?
[22:03] <Len-nb> micahg, this would mean creating a new seed/meta and then deleting some others after that.
[22:03] <zequence> I think I get how I am to do it in seeds. STRUCTURE and the individual files
[22:03] <zequence> But, I'm not getting how the metas are built. The germinate part
[22:03] <micahg> zequence: yeah
[22:04] <micahg> zequence: hrm, I missed that part before, I'd reference the change that cjwatson made for the publishing/photography metas last time
[22:04] <zequence> I'm thinking the files in the root of the meta are auto generated
[22:04] <Len-nb> micahg, if there is already a meta called ubuntustudio-audio and we create a seed file called audio is that going to conflict?
[22:04] <zequence> micahg: Ok. I'll look that up. Should be easy enough
[22:05] <micahg> Len-nb: no, it'll just go from a metapackage to an actually seed based metapackage
[22:05] <Len-nb> That should be no trouble to do it that way then.
[22:05] <Len-nb> micahg,  The change I was going to do is done, BTW.
[22:08] <Len-nb> BZR has changed... it asks for the key in a dialog now, used to be commandline.
[22:09] <micahg> no, that's gpg agent, are you in Xfce or some other DE?
[22:09] <micahg> err..ssh agent
[22:10] <micahg> glad that bug was finally fixed if in Xfce
[22:12] <Len-nb> xubuntu
[22:13] <Len-nb> I went from Studio 12.04 to xubuntu 13.04 (or whatever ;)
[22:14] <Len-nb> P to R I guess.