[14:52] <rsalveti> is etherpad crashing for others as well? cannot even use it here
[14:53] <rsalveti> keeps reloading itself from time to time
[14:58] <rsalveti> seb128: are you the one responsible for sending the invites?
[14:58] <lool> in theory you would see a link on the meeting's page
[14:58] <lool> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21608/client-1303-refactor-platform-api/
[14:59] <lool> video stream is up
[14:59] <cjohnston> if you are required, and there is a video appearing on the meeting page, refresh and you will see the link to join
[14:59] <seb128> rsalveti, the system does to the people marked as required on the blueprint
[14:59] <lool> rsalveti, seb128: some static
[14:59] <cjohnston> Not required on the blueprint. Required in Summit... participation essential != required
[15:00] <doanac_> rsalveti: we meet again.
[15:00] <lool> rsalveti: yes
[15:00] <lool> rsalveti: you're coming through fine
[15:00] <rsalveti> seb128: cool, just saw it
[15:00] <Saviq|UDS> rsalveti: yes
[15:00] <lool> there's some background static though
[15:00] <lool> better now
[15:00] <lool> just hearing typing noises  :-)
[15:01] <Saviq|UDS> ChickenCutlass, rsalveti, seb128, tvoss use "Lower Third" from hangout tools
[15:01] <lool> rsalveti: remove hl=fr from URL
[15:01] <Saviq|UDS> to show names and IRC nicks
[15:01] <rickspencer3> hi gents
[15:03] <mfisch> misspelled disaster
[15:04] <thomi> I love the flags :)
[15:04]  * Trevinho|uds agrees
[15:04] <lool> kids  :-)
[15:04] <awe_> +1 on  the flags as well.  Kinda like the Olympics
[15:05] <awe_> tvoss, you're mic is kinda low...
[15:06] <awe_> tvoss, yes
[15:06] <seb128> awe_, want to join us?
[15:06] <awe_> seb128, sure
[15:07] <awe_> seb128, although I don't have a lot to contribute...
[15:07] <seb128> awe_, your call
[15:07] <seb128> I msged you the url
[15:07] <awe_> k
[15:09] <Saviq|UDS> ChickenCutlass: and TV!
[15:09] <kgunn> ChanServ: so would that be like omx level?
[15:09] <kgunn> ChickenCutlass: so would that be like omx level?
[15:09] <dbarth> so ChickenCutlass, you plan on keeping that API definition and binding that to the parts of Gnome or else we have on the desktop?
[15:09] <ChickenCutlass> Saviq|UDS: right
[15:10] <dbarth> asking you, as i don't see tvoss logged in here
[15:11] <lool> I'll ping him to join when he's done introducing
[15:11] <achiang> ChickenCutlass: fyi, there is ~8 second delay between the hangout and the youtube stream. not sure if that has already been mentioned
[15:11] <achiang> lool: ^^
[15:12] <dbarth> if that's in scope?
[15:13] <seb128> dbarth, want to join the hangout?
[15:13] <dbarth> yeah
[15:13] <dbarth> let me eplain ;)
[15:14] <dbarth> i was wondering if you want to keep the same API for apps, but bind that to what runs on a more traditional x86 PC (as opposed to a mobile device)
[15:14] <thomi> Having the platform API avaialable on the desktop will certainly help us with autopilot...
[15:14] <dbarth> same API, ie the Ubuntu Touch API you defined
[15:14] <awe_> how close does the API adhere to Android's HAL, and do we plan on re-factoring this to be less Android specific?
[15:15] <dbarth> but the runtime is either hosted on android, and then gradually is migrated to our middleware, and how much of the gnome heritage (no offense here) we have on the desktop
[15:15] <rsalveti> awe_: guess it depends on the api scope we want to cover with it
[15:21] <Saviq|UDS> rsalveti: in the location example, would geoclue live below Ubuntu Platform API, on top of it, or completely in parallel?
[15:22] <rsalveti> Saviq|UDS: in this example I'd expect geoclue to be below ubuntu platform api
[15:22] <rsalveti> as the platform api would be the entry point
[15:22] <ChickenCutlass> Saviq|UDS: rsalveti  yes below
[15:22] <Saviq|UDS> cool
[15:24] <lool> rsalveti: exactly the point I was making for geoclue with tvoss last Friday; thanks for bringing it up  :-)
[15:24] <lool> I feel MIR might be another case of this
[15:24] <rsalveti> lool: yeah
[15:25] <kgunn> ChickenCutlass: so the api's are convenience, but for example a client app could stil use geoclue directly?
[15:26] <Saviq|UDS> tvoss: could (again, in the location example), geoclue be simply part of the Ubuntu Platform API?
[15:26] <ChickenCutlass> kgunn: sure nothing stopping a developer from using it directly
[15:29] <kgunn> Saviq|UDS: i agree with you, no need to wrap an api if it exists on the platforms we care about
[15:29] <kgunn> Saviq|UDS: same as what tvoss just said about opengles & openmax
[15:30] <Saviq|UDS> tvoss: I'm afraid of adding another glue layer that would only mean that your app will only run on Ubuntu
[15:30] <Saviq|UDS> at least where there are well-defined alternatives
[15:31] <seb128> server error, sorry
[15:31] <mfisch> hangout crash for anyone else?
[15:31] <nuclearbob> yep
[15:31] <Trevinho|uds> back
[15:31] <nuclearbob> me too
[15:31] <rsalveti> yeah, if the host goes down, it stops the transmission
[15:32] <dbarth> tvoss: to clarify, by platform API, do you mean: the adaptation layer for Ubuntu Touch in 3 months, or the set of APIs that Ubuntu 14.04 will provide to applications in 1 year?
[15:32] <tvoss> dbarth, both
[15:32] <dbarth> a diagram may help also represent what the discussion is about, and what it is /not/ about
[15:33] <dbarth> ok, ChickenCutlass, yes that clarifies, so 14.04 APIs for apps, right?
[15:34]  * lool keeps an eye on the clock
[15:34] <TheMuso> So... If the platform API wrapped Mir, we wouldn't be writing a backend for Gtk to work with Mir, we would be writing a backend for Gtk to work with the platform API?
[15:34] <TheMuso> As an example...
[15:36] <dbarth> so there should be 2 parts in the API:
[15:37] <Saviq|UDS> there's no question, we need that
[15:37] <dbarth> access to supported services
[15:37] <dbarth> and helpers to adapt to form factors
[15:37] <dbarth> ok
[15:39] <udsbotu> uds-client-1: 5 minutes left in this session!
[15:40] <dbarth> would that help to surface that as WIP on http://developer.ubuntu.com/resources/platform/api/ ?
[15:40] <udsbotu> uds-client-1: 4 minutes left in this session!
[15:41] <udsbotu> uds-client-1: 3 minutes left in this session!
[15:42] <udsbotu> uds-client-1: 2 minutes left in this session!
[15:43] <TheMuso> Agreed re mailing list.
[15:43] <alex_abreu> +1 for new mailing list
[15:43] <pitti_uds> we could at least start with u-devel@, to raise some attention to this
[15:44] <Saviq|UDS> +1
[15:45] <udsbotu> uds-client-1: This session has ended.
[15:46] <thomi>  \o/
[15:46] <Saviq|UDS> o/
[15:47] <dbarth> well done; interesting
[15:52] <lool> rsalveti: I'm participation essential in both the hw accelerated video decode / rendering and in the porting touch images to raring sessions (I might have marked myself essential there); would you want me to jump between the two, or would you feel I'm more important in one or the other?
[15:53] <Mirv> rsalveti: are you in talks with stskeeps already btw regarding libhybris?
[15:53] <rsalveti> Mirv: yes
[15:54] <Mirv> rsalveti: ok, great
[15:54] <rsalveti> lool: I can cover the porting touch images, feel free to start at the hw accelerated video decode session
[15:54] <lool> rsalveti: there's a lead for the hw acceleration session though?  I am not prepared to *lead* it  :-)
[15:55] <cyphermox> xnox: no point worrying about how ofono is handled, me and stgraber are following the package pretty closely in Ubuntu and Debian
[15:55] <cyphermox> unless of course you think that's reason for concern ;D
[15:55] <rsalveti> lool: there is, jhodapp is leading it
[15:55] <lool> cool
[15:55] <rsalveti> well, we got a bunch of new code for ofono
[15:55] <rsalveti> we need to coordinate the upstream work here
[15:55] <cyphermox> rsalveti: yeah, but still
[15:55] <rsalveti> + distro
[15:55] <cyphermox> yes
[15:55] <cyphermox> we can do this for you I guess
[15:56] <cyphermox> or you may want to just push your patches directly upstream
[15:56] <rsalveti> hm, no hangout link still
[15:56] <cyphermox> assuming you wrote them you'd be credited either way
[15:56] <rsalveti> yeah, we need to first try to push it upstream, but we also want/need it available at the distro
[15:56] <tvoss> rsalveti, want me in the hw decode session?
[15:56] <rsalveti> lets talk at the session
[15:56] <rsalveti> tvoss: yes, please
[15:57] <tvoss> rsalveti, any link, yet?
[15:57] <rsalveti> seb128: do you have the link for this session already?
[15:57] <cyphermox> rsalveti: that's all fine, what I mean is not a huge need to discuss. if the patches aren't pure crack nobody will object to carrying them as distro patch and/ upstreaming
[15:58] <tsdgeos> is video up?
[15:58] <mterry_> seb128, Hmm, where is the link to participate?
[15:58] <tsdgeos> can't see it yet
[15:58] <lool> tvoss.clone().join_track("#client-1").clone().join_track("#client-2").clone().join_track("#appdev-1").clone().join_track("#appdev-2")
[15:58] <cyphermox> tsdgeos: doesn't seem to be
[15:58] <tvoss> lool, ?
[15:58] <cyphermox> hehehe
[15:58] <xnox> cyphermox: are you going to be in the session? =)
[15:58] <xnox> cyphermox: i was just worried that stgraber is double booked ;-)
[15:58] <cyphermox> xnox: wasn't especially feeling the need to be
[15:58] <lool> tvoss: I want 4 clones of you to have one of you in each session in each track  :-)
[15:59] <xnox> cyphermox: ok. good.
[15:59] <tvoss> lool, ;)
[15:59] <cyphermox> then sure, I can jump in, just need the link
[15:59] <tvoss> lool, I feel abused now, or better my chromosomes
[15:59] <lool> you should feel proud!
[15:59] <cyphermox> but I'm happy to leave my place, my contribution is unlikely to be very important
[15:59] <tsdgeos> we has videos
[16:00] <cyphermox> hmm I see a Didier
[16:00] <robru> didrocks, such a fancy name badge you had there!
[16:00] <kenvandine> didrocks, can you invite me to the hangout?
[16:00] <didrocks> robru: isn't it? :)
[16:01] <seb128> who needs the hangout link?
[16:01] <seb128> (should be in the summit?)
[16:01] <mterry_> looks like you have enough, I'll just lurk
[16:02] <ogra_> same here
[16:03] <cyphermox> +1
[16:04] <cyphermox> I think I'm subscribed to the list already
[16:04] <seb128> cyphermox, seems like you could have input for the ofono packaging stuff?
[16:05] <cyphermox> trying to join
[16:05] <ogra_> how about rolling back to the good old hotplug scripts for that
[16:05] <ogra_> (if its only one device)
[16:07] <ogra_> (instead of udev)
[16:08] <didrocks> kenvandine: aren't you WI more for our session? the one at 6:15PM?
[16:08] <kenvandine> oh.. maybe so :)
[16:08] <boiko> seb128: I think it is actually "rild" instead of "reald"
[16:08] <boiko> rsalveti: right? ^
[16:08] <didrocks> kenvandine: feel free to move those there :)
[16:09] <seb128> boiko, thanks
[16:09] <cyphermox> my lower third is reversed, right?
[16:09] <kenvandine> mirror image
[16:09] <mterry_> cyphermox, that's normal
[16:09] <cyphermox> oh ok
[16:10] <didrocks> the hangout API is doing that, your image you are seeing on the low part is reversed
[16:10] <ogra_> as long as it doesnt add pimples ... who cares :)
[16:10] <didrocks> ogra_: it's for pointing people in fact
[16:10] <didrocks> so that when you point to the right
[16:11] <didrocks> your hand is at the right
[16:11] <mterry_> didrocks, that's adorable
[16:11] <ogra_> ah, nice
[16:20] <cyphermox> seb128: I took a note of the p2p0 patch before the session, was already aware of that one
[16:20] <seb128> cyphermox, I saw, thanks
[16:21] <cyphermox> thanks for taking notes!
[16:21] <seb128> np ;-)
[16:26] <robru> who is running the vacuum cleaner? seriously guys?
[17:59] <gema_uds> is the video working?
[17:59] <gema_uds> oh, still 15 mins to go
[18:12] <balloons> we see your smile didrocks
[18:12]  * ogra_ will be a tad late, sorry 
[18:12] <tedg> "You can remove it" /me didn't realize we could remove France, looking into it.
[18:13] <balloons> tedg, lol
[18:13] <Laney> I don't hear any noise coming from ken
[18:13] <pitti_uds> same here, kenvandine sounds fine
[18:13] <gema_uds> sounds good to me too
[18:14] <greyback> didrocks: want an SDK person there?
[18:14] <didrocks> greyback: I just ping zoltan
[18:14] <didrocks> greyback: do you know if he's around?
[18:14] <didrocks> greyback: otherwise, feel free to come :)
[18:14] <greyback> didrocks: ok. He was an hour ago
[18:15] <mterry> Sorry everyone for my goofy face icon.  Something is wrong with my webcam and google
[18:15] <kenvandine> tedg, i'm already assigning work items to you :)
[18:15] <pitti_uds> j'aime comme didrocks dit "Robert"
[18:15] <cyphermox> hrm.. oops
[18:15] <gema_uds> you can get someone else
[18:15] <gema_uds> I think you can have 15
[18:16] <cyphermox> my video is breaking up right?
[18:16] <balloons> u actually get 15 now didrocks
[18:16] <BigWhale> Greetings all
[18:16] <Laney> cyphermox: tes
[18:16] <Laney> yes
[18:16] <cyphermox> grr
[18:16] <cyphermox> I'll reconnect
[18:18] <ricmm> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtlKERhVPP5ydFlPa0lpbWpKQ2tiX045S055WHp0S2c&usp=sharing#gid=0
[18:18] <cyphermox> angry fruit salad :)
[18:18] <ogra_> hmm, i dont seem to be able to join the hangout (i dont have a join link) can anyone PM it to me ?
[18:19] <cyphermox> didrocks:  ogra_: I can give you my place?
[18:19] <cjohnston> ogra_: you arent required
[18:19] <gema_uds> he should be able to join
[18:19] <ogra_> cyphermox, we should be capüable of having 15 ppl in
[18:19] <cyphermox> ok
[18:19] <ogra_> i just dont get the link above the window
[18:19] <gema_uds> cjohnston: when you say those things it sounds confusing, he is definitely required
[18:20] <cjohnston> gema_uds: According to summit he is not required.
[18:20] <ogra_> would be nice is someone could PM it to me
[18:20] <gema_uds> cjohnston: ack
[18:20] <cyphermox> ogra_: just a second
[18:20] <ogra_> i am definitely marked essential
[18:20] <ogra_> didrocks, and i checked in advance
[18:20] <gema_uds> ogra_: essential is not required
[18:20] <cjohnston> ogra_: essential in launchpad means nothing
[18:20] <ogra_> oh
[18:20] <gema_uds> the track leads can mark you required
[18:20] <ogra_> heh
[18:20] <balloons> lol..
[18:21] <gema_uds> cjohnston: I told you this would be confusing x)
[18:21] <gema_uds> cjohnston: we need a how to !
[18:21] <cjohnston> gema_uds: its been blogged and emailed
[18:22] <slangasek> so what are the goals here for running on the desktop?
[18:22] <slangasek> do we actually care about running x86 builds of apps on the desktop?  or is what we care about really to be able to run arm builds of apps under emulation?
[18:23] <ogra_> slangasek, x86
[18:23] <ogra_> making the apps work across the board
[18:23] <slangasek> ogra_: why is that what we care about (right now)?
[18:23] <robru> slangasek, isn't that the whole point of our convergence story? phone apps should run on the desktop as full-fledged desktop apps.
[18:23] <ogra_> well, its getting the new desktop in :)
[18:23] <slangasek> robru: this session isn't about convergence though, it's about getting the software from the Ubuntu Touch preview into raring
[18:24] <seb128> didrocks, ^
[18:24] <robru> slangasek, I must be confused then. What does "into raring" mean if not "running on the desktop"?
[18:24] <seb128> didrocks, might be worth adressing in the session
[18:24] <ogra_> robru, packaged
[18:24] <slangasek> *convergence* implies having one set of interfaces across all devices... but that's clearly not what is being proposed here
[18:24] <pitti_uds> robru: into the Ubuntu archive, so that we can build images with our standard tools, and maintain them properly as packages, I take it?
[18:24] <slangasek> robru: packaged, in the Ubuntu archive for raring, with raring as the focal point for development iteration and with us able to build images from it
[18:24]  * thomi is working on it
[18:25] <slangasek> so we can build official Ubuntu armhf touch images
[18:25] <pitti_uds> and also cover them on library transitions, security updates, britney, autopkgtest, and the like
[18:25] <slangasek> but if we start worrying now about android services... I don't think we're going to get anywhere in the next 2 months
[18:25] <mmrazik> didrocks: but wouldn't it be actually better to test stuff like phone-app on a real phone?
[18:25] <slangasek> feel free to pull me into the hangout if you want :)
[18:25] <matzipan_> slangasek: from what I understand it is one single code base compiled to be running on both architectures and capable of taking the shape of all the form factors/
[18:26] <mmrazik> I'm not sure how many people will be using phone-app on desktop (seems to be at least a less likely option)
[18:26] <gema_uds> invite him
[18:26] <gema_uds> he can join
[18:26] <gema_uds> no limit of 10
[18:26] <mzanetti> mmrazik: UfA
[18:26] <gema_uds> 15
[18:26] <mmrazik> mzanetti: I see
[18:26] <matzipan_> mmrazik: it would be interesting to see something like that
[18:27] <mmrazik> mzanetti, didrocks: but still... I assume the number of users using phone app on a phone is going to be higher
[18:27] <mzanetti> mmrazik: yes
[18:28] <mmrazik> it would be IMHO better to run this daily testing on a phone
[18:28] <mzanetti> mmrazik: I always wanted the real hardware. But you are aware of the issues we still have with that
[18:28] <mmrazik> even though its going to be more difficult
[18:28] <mmrazik> mzanetti: ack... talking about ideal world
[18:28] <Wellark> well, at least we need the SDK and other libraries in the shape that the apps can be developed and tested on the desktop
[18:29] <matzipan_> Wellark: would they be running in an arm emulator? or will they be compiled for your pc ?
[18:30] <mmrazik> matzipan_: right now we have been running the tests on a real desktop with X
[18:30] <ogra_> there is another session for emulators etc next hour
[18:30] <mmrazik> as tedg mentioned they are just qt apps and qt has the right backends..
[18:30] <ogra_> "ubuntu sdk tools"
[18:31] <Wellark> matzipan_: IMO there should be no reason to run ARM emulation when developing 3rd party applications
[18:32] <matzipan_> i am guessing "touch apps" does not include touch screen laptops?
[18:33] <ogra_> it will
[18:33] <ogra_> in 14.04
[18:33] <matzipan_> oh, at the point of the "grand unification" ? :D
[18:33] <ogra_> currently we are defining the road towards that
[18:34] <slangasek> matzipan_: well, touch-screen laptops aren't the focus of any work over the next months
[18:34] <slangasek> the focus is all on smaller touch screens
[18:35] <Wellark> tedg: we need the new hud to get libhud so that we can land the integration between SDK and libhud-qml
[18:35] <tedg> Wellark, Yup, but even if the hud-service was in a different package they'd be okay.
[18:36] <ogra_> its a simple naming transition, no ?
[18:36] <Wellark> well, as long we figure out the build dependencies so that libhud can be installed
[18:40] <Wellark> how about the the broken unity packages in phablet ppa? those are for quantal, but is there something that has to be addressed on the raring side? or do the raring unity packages contain the changes already?
[18:42] <tedg> We need some sort of authentication on these country flags.
[18:42] <pitti_uds> tedg: says the man who doesn't use a country flag :)
[18:42] <ogra_> haha
[18:42] <tedg> pitti_uds, I did.  You supporter of the illegal occupation of Texas!
[18:42] <ogra_> how the heck do i get that in the first place ?
[18:42] <pitti_uds> (yeah, I know that there are many Texan people who'd disagree)
[18:42]  * ogra_ doesnt even have a shiny name tag
[18:43] <pitti_uds> ogra_: hangout tools, "lower third", enable your name and set your country
[18:43] <robru> didrocks, don't forget to assign some easy stuff for me ;-)
[18:45] <slangasek> tedg: as I'm eligible to apply for Czech citizenship provided I can fill out the form successfully, I feel entitled
[18:46]  * tedg doesn't want to be in kenvandine's "stack of friends"
[18:46] <tedg> slangasek, Hah!
[18:46] <kenvandine> tedg, you are!
[18:47] <mmrazik> didrocks: there should be some tests for the demo app with all the components
[18:47] <mmrazik> didrocks: should be good for release testing
[18:47] <cjwatson> "eligible to apply for citizenship" - is there pre-authentication before you can get the forms? :)
[18:47] <ogra_> heh
[18:47] <mmrazik> didrocks: if not there should not be much work to make them good for release testing
[18:48] <mzanetti> mmrazik: good point actually... maybe we should autopilot the demo app
[18:49] <mmrazik> mzanetti: we are autopiloting it
[18:49] <mmrazik> mzanetti: or at least it was the plan
[18:49] <mmrazik> not 100% sure where exactly it is
[18:49] <mzanetti> oh.. haven't seen that so far. but great if there is something
[18:49] <slangasek> cjwatson: heh, no
[18:49] <mmrazik> mzanetti: jp was certainly working on it at some point of time
[18:50] <vrruiz_> willcooke is not here, but I am :)
[18:50] <thomi> does kenvandine sound like a Dalek to anyone else?
[18:51] <mzanetti> thomi: yes...
[18:51] <tedg> thomi, A Dalek that runs on beer!
[18:51] <slangasek> thomi: that has always been my impression
[18:51] <thomi> ok, as long as it's not just me
[18:51] <ogra_> even without flicking a finger over his lips !
[18:51] <thomi> hah
[18:54] <slangasek> ah no, kenvandine isn't a dalek, he's apparently Rush Limbaugh
[18:55] <kenvandine> hehe
[18:56]  * mterry investigates his camera
[18:56] <robru> video cut out abruptly, was that actually the end?
[18:56] <Laney> yeah
[18:58] <tvoss> can someone ping me the hangout link?
[18:59] <didrocks> robru: we told "thanks everyone" :)
[18:59] <robru> didrocks, I think that part got cut off ;-)
[18:59] <robru> didrocks, or maybe I was momentarily deaf ;-)
[19:00] <didrocks> robru: that was just after "we'll assign everything to robru"
[19:00] <didrocks> :p
[19:00] <chicken_terrine> helo as talking video started??
[19:01] <tvoss> didrocks, ping
[19:01] <didrocks> hey tvoss
[19:01] <tvoss> is the video running? google tells me they will be right back
[19:01] <ptl> I understand that going too deep on this will not be productive, but will there be any mention of the discussion between the wayland developers and Canonical, where they said wayland does not suffer from any of the downsides quoted on the Mir page?
[19:01] <ptl> I am talking of course about the article "Don't piss on Wayland", http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxODA
[19:01] <chicken_terrine> phoronix? trololol
[19:03] <tsdgeos> where's the video?
[19:03] <didrocks> tvoss: which session? the previous one just finished 5 minutes ago
[19:03] <olafura> tsdgeos it's running on Mir :)
[19:03] <tsdgeos> ah, starts in 2 min
[19:04] <chicken_terrine> #burn
[19:04] <kdub_> is there supposed to be a hangout somewhere?
[19:04] <tsdgeos> didrocks: the mir one
[19:04] <didrocks> yeah, not yet I guess :)
[19:04] <alan_g> is there sound and/or video
[19:05] <cjohnston> seb128: who is supposed to be starting this one?
[19:06] <alf_> robert_ancell: I think we are still off air
[19:06] <TheMuso> I guess nobody joined yet.
[19:06] <robert_ancell> alf_, really?
[19:06] <mmrazik> robert_ancell, alf_: yes
[19:06] <Saviq|UDS> anyone have anything other than a "We'll be right back" video recorded?
[19:06] <cjohnston> nope
[19:07] <mmrazik> Saviq|UDS: no
[19:07] <thomi> yes
[19:07] <mmrazik> well... I have "This video is currently unavailable."
[19:07] <thomi> I just refreshed, now I get a blank screen
[19:07] <thomi> ...doh, and now the we'll be right back screen
[19:07] <cjohnston> it looks like the wrong url was started
[19:07] <Trevinho|UDS> thomi: well, yes you get the "registration" of the session
[19:07] <ptl> and I have a 'An error occured. Please try again later."... will refresh
[19:08] <balloons> same.. nothing..
[19:08] <fisch246> you don't need to refresh
[19:08] <fisch246> just click on "live"
[19:08] <balloons> now it's a 5 min video, not livestream
[19:08] <fisch246> if it's gray you're not live
[19:08] <Saviq|UDS> fisch246: there is no "live" button
[19:08] <fisch246> on the youtube player
[19:08] <Saviq|UDS> fisch246: we basically get the usual YT player
[19:08] <balloons> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oQGyoQAVN6E
[19:09] <seb128> http://youtu.be/w6HnJ3mgT9g
[19:09] <fisch246> i have yet to get a basic yt player
[19:09] <Saviq|UDS> balloons: yup, just a 5:31 video of "We'll be right back"
[19:09] <mmrazik> seb128: that seems to work. thanks
[19:09] <Wellark> the link from seb128 works
[19:09] <thomi> seb128: cool, that link works for me
[19:09] <fisch246> though i opted for html5 so the html5 player might have the option
[19:09] <mmrazik> thomi: you are
[19:09] <cjohnston> thomi: where is there a link from seb128
[19:09] <mmrazik> tvoss: you are..
[19:09] <seb128> http://youtu.be/w6HnJ3mgT9g
[19:09] <netcurli> yes
[19:09] <mmrazik> sorry thomi
[19:09] <seb128> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/ff2785ffa15ca0508f8616284456489ebcb68966fb?authuser=0&hl=fr
[19:10] <rickspencer3> I can see you guys on the new link
[19:10] <robert_ancell> my intel X driver keeps crashing...
[19:10] <Saviq> seb128, can you replace the summit's youtube link with the correct one?
[19:10] <mmrazik> it will be probably just hard to find the recorded session
[19:10] <cjohnston> ok, all
[19:10] <cjohnston> I just updated the url in summit
[19:10] <thomi> some home improvment?
[19:11] <cjohnston> refrehs and the video should work
[19:11] <cjohnston> refresh
[19:11] <seb128> Saviq, done
[19:11] <balloons> working now
[19:11] <Saviq> seb128, yay!
[19:11] <tsdgeos> refresh worked
[19:11] <thomi> yup
[19:11] <sbeattie> yes, workig
[19:11] <sil-unwell> I have refreshed the page on summit, and I now see the hangout fine, yay!
[19:12] <zyga-uds2> alf_: hey :)
[19:12] <sil-unwell> (speakers: it might be quite cool to add Lower Third so your names are up, as it is for Thomas Voss)
[19:12] <alf_> zyga-uds2: hi :)
[19:13] <Wellark> sil-unwell: for some reason I could not get the toolbox working before, others might have the same problem
[19:13] <robert_ancell> any questions on irc?
[19:13] <tsdgeos> is someone at the dentist?
[19:13] <kyleN> at the dentest
[19:13] <cjohnston> please mute whoever that is
[19:13] <rickspencer3> did someone join from a dentist office?
[19:13] <thiagoandrade> How can i help the development of mir?
[19:14] <zyga-uds2> QUESTION: what's the current state of mir and what's the roadmap for the next 3 months?
[19:14] <sil-unwell> OK, well, obvious question: I've seen lots of people saying that our reasons for not using Wayland, as laid out on the wiki page, are something in between incompletely explained and actively maliciously wrong. Can you guys enlarge on the reasons?
[19:14] <cjohnston> seb128: please mute whoever has all of that extra noise
[19:15] <robert_ancell> cjohnston, it was me and I'm muted now
[19:15] <seb128> cjohnston, I think that was robert
[19:15] <cjohnston> ty robert_ancell
[19:15] <seb128> who is leading...
[19:15] <gema_uds> cjohnston: can you paste the link to the feed again?
[19:15] <cjohnston> gema_uds: refresh and it should be there
[19:15] <zyga-uds2> are you taking questions or running a planned discussion?
[19:15] <Wellark> is the feed really this lagged.. :/
[19:15] <dednick> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w6HnJ3mgT9g#!
[19:16] <gema_uds> found it!
[19:16] <seb128> robert_ancell,hello?
[19:16] <jdstrand> is there an agenda?
[19:16] <cjohnston> maybe someone else can step up and take the lead?
[19:16] <seb128> jdstrand, no, open questions I think
[19:16] <jdstrand> ah
[19:17] <robert_ancell> jdstrand, correct
[19:17] <robert_ancell> zyga-uds2, see the blueprints for the roadmap
[19:18] <robert_ancell> zyga-uds2, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1303-mir-converged
[19:18] <sil-unwell> tvoss: not really :) What *were* the different requirements?
[19:18] <zyga-uds2> robert_ancell: excellent, thanks
[19:19] <robert_ancell> seb128, is that building noise still coming through
[19:20] <ptl> QUESTION: will Mir be portable to other scenarios/distros or even other unices?
[19:20] <seb128> robert_ancell, it was when I muted you, just unmute with the icon at the top when you talk and mute when you are done
[19:20] <robert_ancell> seb128, ok
[19:21] <seb128> robert_ancell, that's what I do anyway to avoid keyboard typing noises etc :p
[19:21] <mmrazik> ptl: it is an opensource software
[19:21] <mmrazik> so no reason why it shouldn't be portable. If there are portability issues (technical ones) then I assume that patches are welcome
[19:21] <achiang> has anyone invited the wayland guys to this session? :)
[19:22] <ptl> mmrazik: i know but my questions was more like "are there any specific Linux hooks or ubuntu dependencies that would prevent it to be easily ported?"
[19:22] <kgunn> ptl no
[19:22] <racarr> ptl: No, besides of course the graphics backend
[19:22] <ptl> achiang: that was my first ever question, the wayland questions raised in phoronix... I even pasted the URL here
[19:22] <racarr> but this is modular anyway (GBM, android)
[19:22] <kgunn> ptl like racarr said
[19:22] <alf_> ptl: The architecture is very modular at the source level, and probably will be pluggable at runtime
[19:22] <kgunn> ptl you could get access to lots of hw platforms
[19:22] <robert_ancell> ptl, but note that the primary requirement is to support unity, not to support generic shells
[19:23] <kgunn> ptl using mir
[19:23] <ptl> ok...
[19:23] <petko10> do tell
[19:23] <kgunn> ptl depending on how many backends get added :)
[19:24] <olafura> kgunn you should mute you speaker, your typing getting through
[19:24] <olafura> mic
[19:26] <achiang> how much effort (SWAG) would it take to port a SF driver to Mir?
[19:26] <achiang> tvoss: ^^
[19:26] <achiang> correct
[19:26] <robert_ancell> tvoss, repeat the question so it can be followed on youtube
[19:26] <seb128> if you want people to join the live discussion just give them the hangout url
[19:26] <balloons> QUESTION: do you see mir-specific graphics drivers being written / supported, or will the primary usecase be utilizing drivers for linux, android, etc
[19:27] <tsdgeos> tvoss: but as far as i know we will still support X server inside MIR, how does that work regarding the "we use a much simpler driver model than X". Means X programs will be software renderer and not driver accelerated?
[19:27] <victorp_> tvoss are you using mainly Khronos APIs
[19:27] <victorp_> ?
[19:27] <kgunn> balloons: should be opengl/gles if this is what you mean
[19:28] <ondra> what happens if Google modifies heavily Surface Flinger and hw vendors will do same with drivers to support the change?
[19:28] <victorp_> tvoss how can we optimise mir for different GPUs?
[19:30] <alf_> ondra: We will create a new mir graphics backend (or adjust the existing one to handle all versions, depending on the change)
[19:30] <tsdgeos> ok, tx
[19:31] <gema_uds> QUESTION: How do you envisage we go about testing Mir?
[19:31] <zyga-uds2> gema_uds: ^^ great question
[19:31] <kgunn> ondra: really any hw vendor specifics on android
[19:31] <kdub__>  ondra the api's we rely on are public, open source headers from google, so if they change them, we should be able to understand the changes
[19:31] <kgunn> ondra: should be behind hwc hal
[19:31] <victorp_> thanks tvoss
[19:31] <victorp_> yes
[19:32] <gema_uds> what about system wide testing?
[19:32] <zyga-uds2> QUESTION: how does mir driver model (no support for proprietary drivers yet) affects hardware certification, does that automatically fail certification for everything that does not have free software drivers? (by 14.04 release)
[19:32] <gema_uds> yeah, I am trying to figure out what the platform QA team should do
[19:32] <balloons> ^^, me too
[19:32] <ondra> alf_ Do we have plan to support additional hw features when introduced by surface flinger?
[19:32] <pixelpapst> repeat the question please
[19:32] <zyga-uds2> s/affects/affect/
[19:32] <gema_uds> ok, we'll talk more then
[19:32] <thomi> help us get mir support in autopilot :)
[19:33] <balloons> QUESTION: do you have any tests in place now? unit tests perhaps?
[19:33] <kgunn> ondra: we have a task for integrating android hwc hal as well
[19:33] <bryyce_> balloons: yes there is a test suite with unit tests
[19:33] <davmor2> Question: how will this run on Ubuntu chosen default virtual env kvm?  (don't know if it was covered already
[19:33] <victorp_> QUESTION: we always get asked about benchmarking when talking to OEMs , do we have something we can share or will we?
[19:33] <davmor2> )
[19:33] <mmrazik> robert_ancell, tvoss: I assume we should make the jenkins jobs public. They have coverage metrics etc
[19:33] <racarr> and with integration and acceptance tests
[19:33] <pixelpapst> thank you
[19:33] <alf_> ondra: we do not track surface flinger features per se, if it something we need and it's provided by drivers we will consider using it
[19:33] <racarr> but only for mir as a unit itself
[19:33] <mmrazik> balloons: so you could actually check what the real coverage is
[19:33] <tvoss> mmrazik, +1
[19:34] <racarr> not much full system integration
[19:34] <balloons> excellent, I'll have a look, ty
[19:34] <mmrazik> let me do it right now
[19:34] <kgunn> ondra: conceivably you can always access a variety of hw vendor goodness for composition via hwc hal
[19:34] <mmrazik> srry that I forgot about this
[19:34] <petko10> QUESTION : Why was there no dialogue with the Wayland guys in the planning process (or so I read) ?
[19:34] <zyga-uds2> QUESTION: (again) how does mir driver model (no support for proprietary drivers yet) affect hardware certification, does that automatically fail certification for everything that does not have free software drivers? (by 14.04 release)
[19:34] <bryyce_> the piglit test suite is also relevant, for testing the mesa portion of the stack
[19:35] <petko10>  I believe that everybody wants a fast , efficient and portable system . It just seems that that dialogue was avoided in order to have an in-house Ubuntu governed project,which is kind of FOSS unfriendly. Don't get me wrong - I appreciate your work , but that's the impression from the whole situation and news coverage,that needs to be cleared.
[19:35] <ondra> alf_  My question is driven be evolution of surface flinger and seing how much they managed to accelerare by using hw composition layers.
[19:35] <ondra> alf_ so how can we benefit from Surface Flinger evolution as much as we can
[19:36] <kgunn> ondra: i would view that kind of evolution happening on a very slow scale
[19:36] <pixelpapst> QUESTION: will Mir be able to speak the Wayland protocol at some point ?
[19:36] <victorp_> that is great
[19:36] <kgunn> ondra: think gles1.1 vs gles2.0
[19:36] <achiang> ondra: want to repeat your question with QUESTION: ?
[19:36] <ptl> petko10: you are talking about the phoronix article, right? Yes, I really think it needs a response... It has many worrying implications.
[19:36] <zyga-uds2> thanks
[19:36] <petko10> exactly , I'd be glad to get some clarification on that
[19:37] <petko10> again - not to hold anyone accountable , just so there's no mist around it
[19:37] <pixelpapst> OK, cool, thank you.
[19:38] <robert_ancell> tvoss, repeat the question
[19:38] <alf_> ondra: by taking advantage of the same driver features that surfaceflinger uses to implement similar functionality
[19:39] <mmrazik> btw. some testing data from jenkins (will be available on jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com after a next commit to trunk): 362 tests executed; 75% lines covered by tests (a big gap is the examples/ directory accountable for ~13% of lines)
[19:40] <petko10> well
[19:40] <petko10> I'm trying to word it here
[19:40] <kdub__> mmrazik: android has more than 362 tests :)
[19:40] <mmrazik> kdub__: define android :)
[19:40] <gema_uds> good coverage != good tests ;)
[19:40] <ptl> For reference - I've already have given the article URL in the beginning of this hangout but let me paste it again: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTMxODA - it also claims that wayland does not have the given downsides
[19:40] <mmrazik> kdub__: we have more tests for ubuntu touch obviously
[19:41] <ondra> alf_ would it make more sense, to based mir than on SurfaceFlinger since we use same drivers, and just add features we are missing?
[19:41] <kdub__> mmrazik: the android build of mir
[19:41] <mmrazik> kdub__: oh... yeah... we need that in jenkins :-/
[19:41] <kgunn> ondra: we have to converge at some point :)
[19:41] <mmrazik> thomi: I think something where you can help ^^
[19:41] <kgunn> ondra: think of mir as the convergence point
[19:41] <alf_> ondra: we also support the free software drivers, so that wouldn't work
[19:42] <gema_uds> can you make that analysis available for people to read?
[19:42] <thomi> yeah - feel free to add a work item for me to help get that done after UDS
[19:42] <ondra> alf_ new 4.2 surface flinger for example supports multi screen support and I see it as fast developing component, so using same drivers, but writing own solution carries some ricks
[19:42] <thomi> gema_uds: it will be on the public ubuntu jenkins instance
[19:42] <kdub__> ondra: as new driver features become available, we can add them in
[19:42] <pixelpapst> QUESTION: could you point us to a list of your needs, so that they can hopefully be met by future iterations of the wayland protocol ?
[19:42] <gema_uds> thomi: ok
[19:43] <gema_uds> thomi: I was talking about the analysis where the reasons for not using weiland or any other option were weighted
[19:43] <gema_uds> thomi: rather than the coverage, which I am also interested in
[19:43] <cjohnston> QUESTION: I see a bunch of work items in the blueprint, which I assumed would be discussed in this session, but I guess this is a Q&A.. The work items though are very broad.. Is there going to be discussion on those work items, and drilling them down to something more specific than "Window Decoration"?
[19:43] <thomi> gema_uds: oh, sorry - I misunderstood :)
[19:43] <gema_uds> thomi: my fault :)
[19:43] <davmor2> QUESTION:  What is the plans for power saving?  For example will a screen and led lighting be cut completely to save power when the timer is up for lock screen.
[19:44] <pixelpapst> QUESTION: So the compositor<->shell plugin interface doesn't provide enought room for integration ?
[19:44] <ondra> kdub_ I just see it as replication of code once written by Google. But understand your point
[19:44] <gema_uds> davmor2: we are going to be developing power tests, we can sync up on those
[19:45] <gema_uds> davmor2: any ideas on good use cases are very welcome
[19:45] <alf_> davmor2: ...but mir itself is developed with power saving in mind, avoid redundant wake ups etc
[19:46] <cjohnston> "over time the requirements will become clear" sounds like we don't know what problem we are trying to solve
[19:46] <robert_ancell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1303-mir-converged
[19:46] <pixelpapst> QUESTION: the proposed time table until 14.04 seems very ambitious. What can a generic external developer do to help ?
[19:47] <davmor2> gema_uds: I'm sure I can think of a few if I sit down and think long enough, finding the time might be another issue :)
[19:47] <gema_uds> davmor2: if you stumble over any obvious one that you want covered at some point, just drop me an email ;)
[19:48] <llstarks> is mir going to impair the ability of phones to boot desktop linux or run x11 apps? phones need an open-source ddx to do this since x11 binaries are rare from vendors.
[19:48] <pixelpapst> yes, thank you
[19:48] <davmor2> gema_uds: will do
[19:48] <pixelpapst> will have a look at LP
[19:49] <snwh> so will the development of releases post-13.04 start to transition over to mir?
[19:49] <zyga-uds2> QUESTION: when can we expect mir to land in default ubuntu if rolling release happens?
[19:49] <davmor2> QUESTION: has x forwarding been covered?  If not how will that happen?  If it has I'll catch it up on the video
[19:50] <kyleN> Observation: removing the visual glitches from boot -> session transitions will be very nice
[19:50] <snwh> thanks
[19:50] <cjohnston> robert_ancell: that's normally what sessions during a UDS are for.. to drill down into the work items.. I understand what window decorations means, but we should be discussing how we are going to get there so that we have very specific work items on how to get there.
[19:51] <zyga-uds2> I mean the default user will get them installed and used
[19:51] <thiagoandrade> QUESTION: It was a little unclear to me. Will Mir be able to use existing Android graphics drivers?
[19:51] <robert_ancell> kyleN, yes it will
[19:51] <kdub__> thiagoandrade: yep! we can take whatever blobs come our way and pop them in
[19:51] <davmor2> robert_ancell: Yes over ssh for example
[19:52] <jderose> so why not just lower the support window on non-LTS releases, but keep doing 6 month releases?
[19:52] <cjohnston> I understand that Mir was only announced yesterday, but now that it's out in the open, it needs to be worked on as if it's in the open..
[19:53] <robert_ancell> thiagoandrade, yes
[19:53] <robert_ancell> cjohnston, yes, we are open now
[19:54] <cjohnston> robert_ancell: QUESTION: so if we aren't defining the requirements and such during UDS, when will we be defining them?
[19:54] <sabdfl> hello folks
[19:54] <kyleN> so combining the reuse of android drivers with a display manager that supports the specific use cases of Unity next on converged devices = reason for MIR, I think
[19:55] <gema_uds> robert_ancell: the thing is , if we don't discuss those at UDS, you don't get any external feedback
[19:55] <cjohnston> robert_ancell: what gema_uds said
[19:55] <gema_uds> we could schedule another one tomorrow :)
[19:55] <balloons> Could schedule another session to discuss then tomorrow
[19:55] <cjohnston> 3 months is too long to wait to start drilling down the blueprints
[19:55] <pixelpapst> QUESTION: so are the requirements for a system-compositor second class ?
[19:56] <cjohnston> and if you want to get help from the outside, you have to be able to give people something to work on.
[19:56] <victorp_> SUGGESTION - do you have a irc channel or email list that people can comment
[19:56] <mmrazik> victorp_: #ubuntu-mir
[19:56] <mmrazik> on freenode
[19:56] <pixelpapst> ok, thank you
[19:56] <TheMuso> victorp_: #ubuntu-mir on freenode for IRC.
[19:56] <tvoss> victorp_, it's #ubuntu-mir
[19:56] <petko10> Thanks for the anwsers ,and sorry for my scarse comments , I can't keep up with IRC/live talk. my COMMENT: I still hope there's room for talk with the Wayland guys , because the FOSS community depends on the project and Ubuntu moving away from it is kind of underwhelming
[19:57] <victorp_> tvoss, so people should read the bps and hang out in #ubuntu-mir and talk to the team
[19:57] <victorp_> UDS is not just for xmas ;)
[19:57] <pixelpapst> cool
[19:57] <thiagoandrade> QUESTION: I'm not familiar to Surface Flinger and one of the ideas of Mir is to upgrade the input system. How connected the input system will be to Mir and do you have plans to integrate it to Linux kernel?
[19:57] <tvoss> victorp_, sure, would love to have the feedback
[19:58] <pixelpapst> petko10: agree with your COMMENT
[19:59] <thiagoandrade> Yes thank you
[19:59] <seb128> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/2013-03-06/display?
[19:59] <Saviq> tvoss, do you see things like keyboard shortcut/gesture recognition living in Mir, or in some different layer?
[19:59] <sabdfl> or just hop on IRC / conf call
[19:59] <llstarks> sup seb128
[19:59] <llstarks> whoa and here's sabdfl
[20:00] <llstarks> awesome
[20:00] <zyga-uds2> yes
[20:00] <petko10> yes
[20:00] <sabdfl> hello hello
[20:00] <popey> tvoss: yes
[20:00] <pixelpapst> yeah
[20:00] <mmrazik> tvoss: yes, you are live
[20:00] <thiagoandrade> yes
[20:00] <ptl> yes
[20:00] <petko10> you're live
[20:00] <zyga-uds2> you are live so far ;)
[20:00] <gema_uds> you are live
[20:00] <ogra_> bah, all the good sessions were in the last slot today
[20:00] <mmrazik> this lag is really bad
[20:00] <balloons> this is the last session of the day and your live
[20:00] <balloons> so, you could continue
[20:00] <kgunn> balloons: thanks!
[20:02] <cjohnston> yes
[20:02] <balloons> could you walk through the blueprint and talk about the items, assign some work, talk about problems, and areas where others could help out
[20:03] <robert_ancell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1303-mir-phone-iteration-0
[20:03] <balloons> not sure of everyone's availability persay, but worth giving a few mins to
[20:03] <kyleN> input methods for supporting Asian scripts is currently handled at the X layer (I think) does MIR change this?
[20:04] <tvoss> I will be back in 5
[20:05] <cjohnston> I don't know that I need that
[20:05] <robert_ancell> cjohnston, are you able to join the g+ conversation?
[20:06] <ptl> earthquake?
[20:06] <robert_ancell> I have builders next door
[20:06] <llstarks> sabdfl, is canonical going to fork that flyby of mars? i know you guys have the money and talent to pull it of :)
[20:06] <kyleN> QUESTION: input methods for handling Asian (and other scripts) is handled (I think) at the X level. for example ibus depends on x11. How will MIR support such input methods?
[20:06] <seb128> url is https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/ff2785ffa15ca0508f8616284456489ebcb68966fb?authuser=0
[20:06] <kyleN> (I realize session is over, but what the heck ;)
[20:08] <llstarks> the discussion was needed. mir's complaints about wayland are unfounded.
[20:09] <pixelpapst> (sry AFK for now)
[20:11] <kyleN> regarding my question above, I see that Input Methods (and Accessibility) are in fact the last item on the bprint whiteboard.
[20:13] <zyga-uds2> put lp:mir on github, that might help for participation
[20:13] <bryyce_> zyga-uds2: doubt it
[20:13] <alf_> zyga-uds2: we can just use your bzr git bridge ;)
[20:14] <zyga-uds2> alf_: no that works backwards
[20:14] <zyga-uds2> alf_: as in using git on launchpad
[20:14] <alf_> zyga-uds2: right, it should work great
[20:15] <zyga-uds2> alf_: the point is github is where people are, not git vs bzr discussion
[20:15] <alf_> zyga-uds2: ok, got it
[20:15] <zyga-uds2> gema_uds: ++
[20:16] <zyga-uds2> robert_ancell: if we could have discussed this earlier then I would have strongly urged us to have a story for certifying traditional hardware by 14.04